Fulfillment as a Woman

The blogosphere is weird.  Sometimes I love the din, sometimes I hate it.  I have a feeling many of you have similar reactions (from comments I have read).

Hoping not to be one more clanging gong, and knowing that this post isn’t going to beam me up any brownie points, I wanted to comment today on an article that disturbed me.  Well, perhaps it wasn’t the article that distubed me, but some of the conservative reaction to it.  Here is the article (in Forbes, on careers and married women).  Sometimes the conservative response to something like this is to further polarize, to draw bigger, wider battle lines, to yell louder thinking that will accomplish something (when in reality it serves to deepen the divide…nobody is hearing, everyone is too busy trying to be heard). 

Many men, if I may be so bold, feel threatened by a woman who can think.  My husband has expressed this at times, saying that while it was my active personality and mind that attracted him, it is also something he struggles with at times.  We’ve never had the kind of relatoinship where he can instruct me in the Scriptures, because we are both students of the Book.  (I will add that I do go to him for his opinion on such things, and deeply respect it). 

Some extremists in the conservative camp say this is exactly why a woman shouldn’t persue higher learning, shouldn’t go to college, shouldn’t ever progress in knowlege beyond her husband.  The Forbes article practically said as much: if she does, she will not be satisfied when we ask her to devote herself to  soley being a wife and a mother. 

But that makes me wonder.  If being a wife and mother is so fulfilling, then why are many women not completely satisfied there?  (Or another question: if excercising a woman’s mind will make her discontent with being a wife and mother, then might that tell us that something is wrong either with our perception of being a wife and mother, or perhaps simply with our restriction of women to that role alone)? 

I would agree with many that part of our disatisfaction comes from a culture that has taught us that being at home is not a viable option.

But what happens when you work past that, when you see the homefront as deeply valuable and worth giving one’s life to?  What happens when you see the roles of wife and of mother as incredibly powerful, as a worthy service and calling…but yet you still don’t have that deep down sense of being fully satisfied? 

Is it because you are in sin?  Is it because you are in rebellion?  Is it because you do not yet know God in His fullness?

Or is it because, for some of us, being a wife and mother is a PART of what we were made to do, but not all. 

Do I have to feel 100% satisfied and fulfilled because I choose home?  No.  Because I do not.  I never have.  And yet I love it here, I love my family, I love serving here and God has taught me MUCH, taken me beyond anything I ever thought He could have. 

But I choose this because it is the best thing for my family right NOW.  I don’t have to be 100% fulfilled and joyously content to make this choice.  I wish I was…but I can’t manufacture those feelings.  I know that this is the right thing for me to do with my life NOW. And I do have fun, and I am content, but there is still that fact that it is only 95% of me.  There is a 5% that is hiding somewhere, waiting, in cacoon form or a tomb waiting for His word to bring the dead to life, and I cannot pretend otherwise.

I don’t even like writing or thinking about this subject very much, because it bothers me that I am not 100% content here.  I have stuffed these feelings or so long, becuase I have thought they were sin, rebellion, the enemy.  (Maybe they are?).  But there comes a time in every woman’s life where she has to get real.  Even when it makes her wince to do it.  (And why she feels the need to share some of her deepest wonderings with the blogosphere, only a psychological genius could know).

Bottom line: I do not think that being a wife and mother is what I was made for.  I think it is a MAJOR part of what I was made for.  But it is not all.  It is my vocation now, but I am beginning to have suspicions that perhaps that burning nagging sense (that tells me, “there is more”) deep inside me is because there is more, perhaps God planted it there, and perhaps God is going to bring it out in His chosen time.   

If we tell women that being a wife and mother is all God has for them, that it is their only ministry, that they must feel that deep abiding sense of contentment there, then…aren’t we setting some of them up for failure? 

What if we just get honest, and say that sometimes home isn’t very fulfilling…sometimes it’s the hardest place in the world to be…sometimes it DOES feel like a prison (yes, sometimes the feminists are telling the truth)..but that God can meet us in the home regardless of those things, that God can make it a place we love, that it IS the right choice for some seasons even though it may require sacrificing things that we love, and that it WILL pay off big dividends, and that it is NOT a waste of a life…that living for God’s glory does not always mean doing the things that feel good, or deeply move us.  Sometimes it’s the exact opposite, but what matters is not whether we feel fulfilled, but that His Love is being expressed, His Life is being lived out through us, that He is being seen through us. 

67 Responses to this post.

  1. Molly… I actually JUST posted about what God wants a girl to be on my blog. Crazy.
    I find the process of finding REAL satisfaction — God’s satisfaction, one of dying to self and it is absolutely infuriating most of the time — fulfilling, but infuriating.
    For me, some of dying to self means giving up the suzy-homemaker dream to follow where God has made it abundantly clear that He wants me to be. For me, yes, sometimes home is wonderful, yes, sometimes it’s a trial, and sometimes it’s an excuse. But when I let myself meet God where He wants me to be, he brings great joy, though not always great happiness. But what’s that Switchfoot song… “happy is a yuppie word”…
    :)

  2. Thank you for your honesty, Molly.
    I try to think of my time at home with young children as a just a season in my life. I’m going to enjoy it while I’m here, but I also look forward to the future, when I’ll embark on new adventures.

  3. I’m not sure this is unique to women or unique to women who choose home. I think very few men find fulfillment in their work. Sometmes we just do what we must to make life function well. Sometimes we sacrifice.

    I’m also not sure we’re meant to find (all of our) fulfillment in our work. Shouldn’t that come from an intimate minute to minute relationship with God?

  4. Oh, good thoughs, Molly and Sara. It’s funny because Hubby is going crazy at his job right now and just hates it. I am going crazy at home right now and just hate it sometimes. Even last night he said, so you would want to be back at the press where I worked as an author. I hated that job. But there are other jobs that I think would be great. But the fact is that God has called me to be a wife and mother, and there are many seasons to that–good and bad. Where is my fulfillment (contentment) to be in whatever state I am in? My fulfillment will be in a “well done, thou good and faithful servent” and “As for me, I will see Your face in righteousness; I shall be satisfied when I awake in Your likeness. Psalm 17:15″
    Thanks for this reminder, Molly.

  5. Posted by Marcia on August 27, 2006 at 5:51 am

    >And why she feels the need to share some of her deepest wonderings with the blogosphere, only a psychological genius could know

    Because, girl, what would we do without you?

    Your bravery is impressive, Molly, both in your willingness to examine what you believe, and also that you are willing to share it. This can’t in any way be easy.

  6. Honestly, sometimes, it makes me want to scream. Not neccessarily at anyone – maybe at myself. But I am still me. I am still an individual. God created me for something(s). I am my husband’s wife and I am my children’s mother and those callings are foremost in my life and do (esp right now) take up most of my time. But they aren’t the only callings that *He* ever talks to me about. There are other things He has for me as well. If I just had five minutes to think, maybe I could get enough thoughts together to blog about this, too. In the meantime, I’ll just stay over hear nodding my head:)

  7. I have been meaning to and I will blog about this. It seems to me that many Christian women are so focused on the woman part of who they are, they forget that they are Christians (followers of Christ) first. I’m not saying that the two can necessarily be separated (in this life). But so much attention is paid to externals that I wonder how women are supposed to grow spiritually.

    It seems that so often I read a Christian woman’s blog, it is about how to clean the house or how to be frugal. Those are good things too – I just think the market is glutted. Where are the blogs about growing closer to the Lord? Where we lift each other up “admonishing one another in psalms, hymns and spiritual songs”?

    Thank you, Molly for leaving the talk about HMBs to others.

  8. sara said: “It seems to me that many Christian women are so focused on the woman part of who they are, they forget that they are Christians (followers of Christ) first.”

    Yep. Nodding and agreeing.

    Personally – I have to limit the “housewife” blogs. And I say that as a SAHM – fully committed to that job. I love what I do – but I’ve got to think about more than doilies and “101 ways to use ground beef”. I have found a rich community of thinking women (not saying the housewife blogs don’t think) in the blogosphere…but they aren’t in the traditional circles, necessarily.

    I had not been exposed to the “patriarchy” ideas until I had a blog and it has been a very interesting experience to read and try to understand this viewpoint. There is a strange sort of idolizing of femininity (and the victorian era – apparently!) I really don’t get.

    Hope I’m making some sort of sense and not stepping on toes…I probably shouldn’t comment as I’m not feeling very well….but I’m living dangerously today.

  9. tonia, you crack me up… .(in a good way :) )

    I totally hear you. When I started blogging, somehow discovered homeschoolblogger (?) and figured out what this whole thing was… I read so many things FOREIGN to who I am and had ever experienced. (not bad, foreign)

    I totally agree Sara. I won’t mention any specifics, because it isn’t about that, but many topics cause me to become hyper focused on things that weren’t natural to me, and frankly wasn’t what God had called me to be hyper-focused on!! I too have to be careful not to visit too many of them, because I end up being more discontent, because I don’t think like I “should”, or am not innately made like “them” – which is obviously is more Godly because they have vague Scripture to back it up.

    That is my flesh and lies of the devil! When they are maybe just following what God has for them… what does God have for ME! And it is a lot more varied than what many others will deem right for them. I don’t think my ministry stops at my front door… it begins there…. just the starting point of what goes on outside my front door… the neighbors, the unsaved we purposely befriend and involve in our lives, not to mention ministries we KNOW God has called us to in our church, and the extra time and energy it takes to be part of God’s familky!

    Its a balancing act, and I usually tip the scales one way or the other, but I trust that the Holy Spirit will continue to help me live on an even keel! Knowing when to say yes and no, when to reach out and offer, and when to leave it for someone else… it doesn’t EVER seem to be cut and dry!!

  10. sorry!! that was long!

  11. OH – and one more thing… God made us, and created us, and created our personalities, put within us our passions, and gave us our talents and gifts, and SPIRITUAL gifts, and allowed those things which make up our “background”…

    He doesn’t do that so we can all have the SAME EXACT ministry that will look the SAME in each home / life / person…

    …”He will give you the desire of yoru heart” A heart that seeks God, will be changed by God to reflect God’s desire for them. and that desire will come to fruition… sometimes immediately and sometimes with much waiting!. Dont’ ya think? maybe? :)

  12. Posted by Catherine on August 27, 2006 at 8:12 am

    I’ve been reading your blog for a while, Molly, and I hope you won’t mind my commenting here. I’m very different than most of your readers – I’m only in my early twenties, unmarried, childless, and a product of the public school system :) I love your writing though – it’s such an inspiration and it reminds me to continually seek God’s purpose for my life. I think the most discouraging thing about blogs (or people) that dictate what a woman should or should not do is the lack of room for God’s individual leading. I do think God created most women with a natural maternal instinct, and I know the Scriptures are very clear about the necessity (and the great joy) of serving one’s family. But not all women are called to marriage and motherhood. Some are called to singleness. And some are called to careers which will allow them to serve many people outside of their immediate families. I cannot see why it would be a sin for a woman to follow God’s calling in these areas, even if it leads her outside the boundaries of being a traditional wife and mother. Anyway, these are just some of my thoughts :) I am interested to hear what others might think – and again, thank you for allowing me to share :)

  13. Wow, I have a lot of time on my hands tonight.

    Hi, Catherine. Your comment made me think of I Corinthians chapter 7. Paul writes here about marriage and how no one should have more than one spouse and that husband and wife belong to each other.

    Interestingly, he also says that it is his opinion (not a command) that both men and women (and widows) would be better off and better able to serve the Lord if they remain single. He also seems to think that widows would be happier if they do not remarry. (Which I guess must be taken in context with I Timothy 5:3-14)

    I think it’s rare for a person to be called to singleness but it does happen and can be used powerfully by God.

  14. Posted by molly on August 27, 2006 at 8:38 am

    These comments are GREAT. Wow. It has actaully really surprised me, to be honest… I was sort of wincing for an outcry, not expecting, I guess, many women to essentially say, “Yeah. Me too.”

    Thanks for the nice surprise. :)

    Btw,
    On the homemaker blogs, I personally love many of them and find them to be very encouraging and helpful. The trick is to not get lost in the practical and lose sight of what is supposed to be empowering it (Him), of what makes the practical things of life to be things that bring Him glory. It’s also a good thing, at least for me, to not make them the bulk of my reading material, but rather, SOME of my reading material. :)

    And, as others have said, it is so easy a trap to think that a godly woman will look like “such-n-such,” as opposed to granting that God may express Himself through womankind in a great variety of ways.

  15. Posted by molly on August 27, 2006 at 8:39 am

    PS. Renee, never apologize for being “too long” over here, woman! :)

  16. At the risk of painting a target on myself…I am beginning to believe this more and more, as Catherine said:

    “I cannot see why it would be a sin for a woman to follow God’s calling in these areas, even if it leads her outside the boundaries of being a traditional wife and mother.”

    I’ve been watching women, taking note of marriages that work, and I have noticed that often times the happiest marriages don’t take the prescribed course. It works for THEM – and I think we must serve a pretty amazing God that can pair people off in ways that are complimentary. My dh and I have a very traditional arrangement. I stay at home, which is what I’ve always wanted to do (and is very conducive to writing-time, which is my other passion), and he is the bread-winner…but I know plenty of people that have the reverse situation, or a combination thereof and they are very happy together.

    ~Something that bothers me in these types of women discussions is that there is usually a false dichotomy: either women are submitted (which by some narrow definition means AT HOME full-time) or they are a Jezebel, bringing about the destruction of all mankind.

    I don’t think there needs to be this either/or scenario. Why can’t a woman be submitted AND pursue a calling or passion? As long as there is agreement in the marriage…why not?

  17. oops, I may have given the impression that I am anti-homemaker or anti-homemaker blog – not so. Just that it seems a very big focus and well just cut and paste right here what Molly said about it in comment 14.

    I am an annoyingly complicated person, I think. I say all that stuff and then I have to admit that I LOVE being a housewife, er, homemaker, I mean SAHM. In my past life (not in a reincarnation way) I was a butcher, baker and candlestick maker. I’m telling you all the things I learned and studied and all the “careers” I had were all (in hindsight) preparation for and leading me to this place. All of my crazy hobbies (soap making, paper making, writing, singing) were bringing me home. It’s probably good nobody told me at the time.

    Y’know when I was in school (already married) I told someone that what I’d really like to do is stay home and raise children (wasn’t even a Christian at the time). Her response? “But you’re so smart! What a waste.” She was a very silly woman.

  18. OK..geez…I confess! I read them too! But they do make me crazy after awhile.

  19. I was thinking along the same lines as Catherine…God doesn’t call all women to be wives and moms…look at Nancy Leigh DeMoss, author of Lies Women Believe. She has such awesome insight into marriage, and has never been married! I remember seeing things so black and white/clearly before marriage. IE: I had two older sisters (much older) and always appreciated learning from their mistakes! ;O)
    Also, a VERY comforting scripture to me is Titus 2:4 about the older woman NEEDING to teach the younger woman to love her husband and love her children…what? We don’t automatically just…love…them? No…there are times when we struggle at this and God knows. Why else would it have been important enough to mention in the verse directly preceding the one about teaching the younger women to be keepers at home?

  20. Mary,

    “Also, a VERY comforting scripture to me is Titus 2:4 about the older woman NEEDING to teach the younger woman to love her husband and love her children…what? We don’t automatically just…love…them?”

    I had never thought of it that way! I DO feel better about me! :)

  21. WOW Molly you did it again! You are making me think and ponder and re-evaluate and I love it! I also loved Sara and Tonia comments!

    Molly I like what you said here…

    “And, as others have said, it is so easy a trap to think that a godly woman will look like “such-n-such,” as opposed to granting that God may express Himself through womankind in a great variety of ways.”

    So often I find myself trying to fit into that “such and such” cookie cutter mold and it’s driving me insane! Your right it is a trap and that is exactly how I feel sometimes, trapped! I am afraid to speak up and say what I really think or believe in fear that I might not look like a “good Christian” to whomever sometimes. WHY??? I want to be able to think and freely express myself with out worrying what others think of me. I KNOW that me and Jesus are tight and I WANT others to see Jesus in me BUT not at the expense of trying to impress them. That is NOT what it is all about. I like to think out loud and examine my thoughts and see where God leads me. Sometimes He just wants me to see that um ya this is dumb and sometimes he just wants me to open my eyes and my heart and my mind just a little bit more because he thinks I ready to. I just want to learn and grow and just get closer and closer to Jesus. How can I do this when I am trying to fit the “such and such” mold and stuck in a trap. I can’t, I need to let Jesus set me free and just let Him lead my way and if that means he wants to lead me done some dark hard rocky road to teach me something than so be it.

    OK I’m getting waaaaayyyy of track her.

    I just really wanted to say thank you for sharing your thoughts with us and for writing this post. It’s fascinating. I commented over on the awesome Spunky’s blog about this and I don’t disagree with her but I am rethinking what I said too. Because to me I think a woman who is career driven isn’t a good thing if she wants a family. BUT I for sure don’t think that women are only limited to being wives and mothers but I do think when you are raising children if you can, staying at home with them is best. BUT I also want to add that my statement isn’t a black and white one there are a lot of grey areas. I think that I will tell my son to marry a woman who is always smiling and who is head over heals in love with the Lord. If she has that then God can take care of the rest. And same for my girls. For now.

    Seriously great post and you have given me a lot to think about and pray about and stuff like that.

    Molly = fabulous!

  22. WOW Molly you did it again! You are making me think and ponder and re-evaluate and I love it! I also loved Sara and Tonia comments!

    Molly I like what you said here…

    “And, as others have said, it is so easy a trap to think that a godly woman will look like “such-n-such,” as opposed to granting that God may express Himself through womankind in a great variety of ways.”

    So often I find myself trying to fit into that “such and such” cookie cutter mold and it’s driving me insane! Your right it is a trap and that is exactly how I feel sometimes, trapped! I am afraid to speak up and say what I really think or believe in fear that I might not look like a “good Christian” to whomever sometimes. WHY??? I want to be able to think and freely express myself with out worrying what others think of me. I KNOW that me and Jesus are tight and I WANT others to see Jesus in me BUT not at the expense of trying to impress them. That is NOT what it is all about. I like to think out loud and examine my thoughts and see where God leads me. Sometimes He just wants me to see that um ya this is dumb and sometimes he just wants me to open my eyes and my heart and my mind just a little bit more because he thinks I ready to. I just want to learn and grow and just get closer and closer to Jesus. How can I do this when I am trying to fit the “such and such” mold and stuck in a trap. I can’t, I need to let Jesus set me free and just let Him lead my way and if that means he wants to lead me done some dark hard rocky road to teach me something than so be it.

    OK I’m getting waaaaayyyy of track her.

    I just really wanted to say thank you for sharing your thoughts with us and for writing this post. It’s fascinating. I commented over on the awesome Spunky’s blog about this and I don’t disagree with her but I am rethinking what I said too. Because to me I think a woman who is career driven isn’t a good thing if she wants a family. BUT I for sure don’t think that women are only limited to being wives and mothers but I do think when you are raising children if you can, staying at home with them is best. BUT I also want to add that my statement isn’t a black and white one there are a lot of grey areas. I think that I will tell my son to marry a woman who is always smiling and who is head over heals in love with the Lord. If she has that then God can take care of the rest. And same for my girls. For now.

    Seriously great post and you have given me a lot to think about and pray about and stuff like that.

    Molly = fabulous! =o)

  23. Oh how embarrassing I double posted!

  24. Posted by Catherine on August 27, 2006 at 10:27 am

    I guess that as a young woman who isn’t sure if God will call her to marriage and motherhood, or not, the idea that God created all women for the express purpose of being wives and mothers makes it difficult to listen to His voice and to discern whether He is leading me in a different direction. Believe me, I really want a family someday :) With just about every inch of my being :) But if that’s not God’s plan, it’s not, and I may have to accept that, much as I might desire otherwise. I don’t think ti necessarily bespeaks selfishness or rebellion if a woman never marries and starts a family – this may in fact be God’s plan for her, for whatever reason.

  25. Catherine,
    I so totally understand what you are saying and where you are coming from, because I’m in the same boat. You’re not the only childless (ha, I almost wrote childish, but that’s not right!) single who reads Molly. Anyway, what you said:

    “the idea that God created all women for the express purpose of being wives and mothers makes it difficult to listen to His voice and to discern whether He is leading me in a different direction”

    is so true. I do find myself reading homemaking and homeschooling blogs a lot, and I’ve come to the realization that I can’t fill my mind with *only* those blogs. I’m just not at that point in my life, and I tend to get jealous and discontent with being single if I read them all the time. I’ve limited them to just a select few.

    I sooooo want to be married and have a family, and some blogs give the impression that that is the only option for Christian women. As I told Molly in an e-mail, sometimes that makes me want to scream, because what am I supposed to do, go snag the next single guy that walks in the church door? I don’t think so. And I do feel like I have a definite calling in life (missionary), and being a wife and mother can be incorporated into that. I’m finally realizing that it’s not an either/or situation.

    Anyhow, I ramble…

    I want my primary focus to be on growing in my relationship with Jesus, and not finding a husband or pursuing a career.

  26. Lindsey and Catherine,

    I just want to say thank you so much for your perspective. I am enjoying learning from you.

  27. Posted by Sarah on August 27, 2006 at 11:50 am

    MOLLY! :)
    Reading this was like a big exhale… Amen, girl! Thank you so much!

  28. Man, a girl leaves and you all carry on such good conversation! No fair…

    :lol:

  29. to Crystal (christywisty)

    i think this relates… I grew up thinking I had to be an “example” – which translated into my mind as, only what I think would be the most Godly attitudes, feelings, words, reactions, etc…

    There is some truth to that, but then where is the authenticity? And then we end up scared to show our true colors… when some of them are EXACTLY what God wants for us, and others need to be shown so that grace can be extended, and people can be encouraged as they see God work in one’s life…

    ok, only kind of relates! :)

  30. I don’t have a lot to add except yup, mm-hmm, me too.

    I too have wondered if I am in sin for “wanting more” and for not “feeling” totally fulfilled in being a wife/mother. As you said, maybe I am???? Hard to say. Or have I just been locked in that room with the boxes for too long? ;-)

  31. [...] Molly has written a thought-proking post.  Not sure what to think about it.  All I know is that right or wrong, I have felt (and still feel) the exact. Same. Way.    [...]

  32. Hi all, I .. um… have been reading here for awhile now and I have to say “WOW.” (Sorry, I am new to this blogging thing and it still kind of feels like easedropping so commenting here is a big step for me.) Anyway, I have been struggling with these very notions ever since choosing my home after years of schooling to be a teacher (my childhood desire and dream). I am home with my four babes and homeschooling etc despite being raised quite to the contrary. But I struggle and flounder in it because I have never felt that doing so was the all of me. Amongst other women at church, family etc whenever I tried to express my feelings I was met with furled brows and questioning looks — it just adds to the feeling that I must be some kind of “freak” (for lack of a better descriptor) for not being completely satisfied as mama and love to my family. But here you all are, and all I can say is “Thank you, thank you, thank you for being out here in the world and for saying the words I have longed to hear from other christian women.” It is a balm to this searching soul.

    Molly, your words mirror my own and I thank you for speaking them and I thank God I found them amid the din.

    Krina

  33. You go girls!!! There is nothing wrong with discussing this topic. We do a disservice to the women who are still trying to get home if we don’t tell the whole story. If we don’t talk about this side of it, how are they to feel when they get home and are 90% happy and fulfilled but they still have that other 10%? They can’t talk to someone who doesn’t understand the importance of home about it. They will tell them to return to work.

    We, as women that understand the world changing influence we have in our home, must discuss this and be open about it.

    I wonder if we will ever find 100% fulfillment this side of Heaven? Because whatever stage we are in, God always has more for us. He isn’t ever “done” with us. So I think there will always be that little part of us that is looking forward and preparing for the next thing.

  34. well said! (this is Makeesha btw, over at inhiscourts. thanks for the comment)

  35. THis is good to read. We are hoping for a family soon, and I will not be working (outside of home) for the first time in what seems like forever! I am aware that there will be transition issues, but it is nice to know that other women who are mothers share some of my secret fears about what it is like sometimes! Right now I’d give anything to be at home! I’m over, OVER work, but I know that nothing is truly satisfying apart from Him.

    I know for me that because I had to wait until 33 to meet my husband, and we don’t have children yet, I am glad, glad, glad that higher education was the norm in our family. I’ve had to work just to live for the last fourteen years, though all Ithough I ever wanted was to be home with children. It is interesting, the paths God has us on, vs the paths we think we want to be on, isn’t it? Sigh.

    Valerie

  36. From a guy’s perspective, I can say that I can understand what you say when you say that you are doing what you have to do now because it is the best thing, and that deep down you feel that you may want something more. It’s easy to get that feeling even when out in the workforce as you wonder if you’re happy with what you’re doing, and wonder if you should be doing something different. You asked whether this desire and longing were something that is a sin or not. Let me ask these questions:

    If you know that you’re in God’s will, shouldn’t that be the place you desire above all else, and therefore any desire that brings discontentment would be sin (Paul says that “in whatsover state I am in, therewith to be content)?

    If you know that you’re in God’s will, doing the best for your family, is it God or Satan that wants you to be discontent when you are doing God’s will?

    Would you be in God’s will doing something else? If so, why aren’t you doing that?

    These are just some basic questions to think about. I don’t have the answers– only you do.

    I do, however, agree that a woman and a man are a team that work together to bring glory to God through their family. An mismatch in intellect can be a blessing and a curse– because a man needs a woman (or vice versa) to share their life, not just be another child in it.

    That being said, the article’s author makes a good point in that neither are really content when the wife knows or makes more, and that’s what (I’m sure) God had in mind when he made the husband the leader of the home and had the wife submitting to Him.

    Something to chew on, anyway.

  37. I add my voice to the growing list of thankful women. I have been struggling with this for so long. I feel so uncomfortable and out of my element, but at the same time, because I have children, I am “supposed” to only be consumed with raising them. I LOVE my children and homeschool and really do enjoy many aspects of SAHM. But at the same time there is the artisic, entrepeneurial side of me that is screaming to get out, feeling selfish and insecure for wanting more than my 4 at home. Thanks for giving me permission to entertain the idea that I have more than two sides (wife and mother). You really have no idea how helpful this post was. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

    Oh, and also for the part you said about it being okay not to like it and to do it anyway. That was great. We don’t have to like 100% of what we do to be faithful to it. Great point.

  38. Molly, I’m a new reader, thanks to Keer:-) (thanks ,Keer!) But your post has gotten me thinking and I wanted to add my own comments…

    I dunno, IS there really such a thing as being “100% fulfilled” here on this earth? I LOVE being a wife and a mother, and at this moment I have no real desire to be anywhere else, but the words “wife/mom” certainly do not adequately describe who I AM. God created me – he gave me talents, gifts, desires, strengths, weaknesses, all wrapped up in this package called Amanda, and yes, at this moment that package is called to this place of being a mom-at-home. But I think it would be pretty…I don’t know the word – shortsighted maybe? – to say that being a wife/mother is the ONLY fulfillment God ever intended for a woman. We have only to look to the Bible to see that. I’m getting longwinded here – guess I’d better go blog about this! :-)

    Blessings, and thanks for getting us thinking!
    Amanda

  39. Posted by molly on August 28, 2006 at 1:15 pm

    This is so cool, gals. How wonderful to hear about your faithfulness to obeying the call God has given you at this time, despite the fact that there are other things you would enjoy doing. This is called being faithful—-this is a good thing!

    MIntheGap, I may have been too confusing, I’m not sure, but I wasn’t saying I’m not content. Just that I’m not 100% fulfilled, as in completely fulfilled in my being. But I don’t think that is sin. Reading about the apostle Paul’s life is like a lesson in someone obeying God, EVEN THOUGH it didn’t always make him *feel* good, even though it involved things that he probably didn’t care for (like, oh, say, beatings, stonings, etc…lol). If our feelings need to match up with our obedience, or we’re in sin, then…I think we’re ALL in big trouble! :lol:

    On the wife needing to not be better than her husband, I really don’t think that is something that God put in us, so I have to respectfully disagree with that one, big time.

    I think it’s more a result of the Fall and the curse of sin in our lives. Before sin came, I don’t think Adam was busy feeling threatened over what Eve could do better than he could (or vice versa). I think they were a TEAM, *together*, for eachother, not looking at who was better/worse than who, but busy being one with eachother. Their strengths were strengths of the TEAM, not strengths that one individual used to feel better or worse than the other. I think this measuring and gauging we can do of eachother is NOT something that comes from God, NOR is the fact that men can sometimes feel threatened by a woman’s talents/giftings. It is something brought in by sin, not by God’s design.

    Warmly,
    Molly

  40. MintheGap,

    Great questions! =)

    “If you know that you’re in God’s will, shouldn’t that be the place you desire above all else,”

    Yes! I do desire to be home with my children above ALL else absolutely and that is why I am home. And I have made several sacrifices to be home with my kids (i.e. live in practically a shack far away from any family and friends just to have a place that would be affordable for us to live as a family starting out and my husband only made 10.00$ an hour. We only had one tiny car (a Geo Metro) for over 5 years until we bought a van then our Geo was totaled in an accident. Then for another 2 years we only had one car (so for only 2 years out of our 9 year marriage did we have 2 cars). We went with out a phone for over six months before and had our electricity/water turned off a few times. On top of that we had to deal with family and friends who did not support the idea of me staying home and that was hard!! There are MANY more things we lived without for years (and still do) because our/MY desire for me to stay home is that strong.

    BUT we aren’t going to be mothers with Children in our homes forever. What happens after that? I have passions and things I would love to do when I am done raising my kids (not that I’m in any hurry for that to happen!!). Like I want to learn to be a web designer and start an online business, I want more time/money to paint and draw, I want to be serve other people in need. . . I know I can do all of these things now and I do plan to but only a little. Most of my time and energy is going into my kids and my husband (and I WANT it to be that way) but it leaves for very little time and energy for me to pursue other things (I don’t say that in a regrettable or sad sort of way either just a matter of fact way). I also think that if maybe I were better with time management I would have more time for stuff I am interested in but I’m not . I know that there are some super moms out there who are.

    If you know that you’re in God’s will, doing the best for your family, is it God or Satan that wants you to be discontent when you are doing God’s will?”

    To be perfectly honest I seriously do not have ANY desire to work outside of our home. I do feel content with being home too. Not that everything is perfect and rosy because it is not. Not that I don’t wish I could be paid for what I do and get vacation days and sick days because I do. I just think its ok to want more and to be interested in other things that we can do when the kids are raised.

    Also I don’t blame Satan for any discontent I feel about anything because he has no power over me and I can just resist him in Chirst. So if I am discontent ever I need only blame myself for not obeying Christ and for not resisting Satan. The devil can’t make me do anything when I’m calling on Jesus Christ.

    I just wonder if it is God’s calling for EVERY woman to be stay at home moms? I don’t know. Should we turn our noses up to those mom’s who choose to work out side the home? No way! Should we make them feel like they are less of a Christian because they work outside their homes? No way!

    I really do think that it is best that if a woman can stay home with her children and that it’s the ideal and the best for a family. BUT it really isn’t ALWAYS possible.

    I’m just thinking out loud here and wondering and pondering and chewing on everyone’s thoughts.

  41. Hey Molly I just wanted to thank you for making your blog such a safe place for peeps to think out loud and ramble and to just discuss stuff in such a loving way.

    =)

  42. Hello

    really great conversation you are having, one that I have had with my wife many times. My basic premise as a husband is that my love for my wife is a self sacrificing one and that i have been called by God to help my wife be all that she has been called to be – I realise that she has many parts to her life of which being a mother is just one. A part of her life that she feels is a probably the hardest gigg that she’s ever done. In fact her struggles with being a mother make that part of it all the more beautiful to me as my wife feels far from its something that comes naturally to her. But it would be wrong for me to not remind her on her down days that she has been created to be more than a mother, that it is not only good but it is right for her to pursue her creative passions and for me to sacrifice some of my life and time to making it work for her. We have to compromise on that time of course as its not possible to do it full time with kids but it is important enought for me to remind her that it is part of her and we shouldn’t park it or pretend otherwise or ignore the gifts God as poured out into her so abundantly.

    When it comes to intelligence I’d say that maybe i am more intellectual but my wife is a lot more practical common sense – i love that combination – she is very clever, very clear, very concise whilst all i have learnt is how to waffle a lot. unfortuantly it means that i earn more £’s so i have to go to work. My wife and I often joke that temperament wise i’d be better off staying with the kids just economically it wouldn’t work. But if it did I would happly stay at home, not cos i’m that desperate to do so but if it would release my wife more than that’s what i’m about.

    My final thought is one that i often express to my wife, you who are mothers, do a very hard job, with no holidays for very little reward or recognition -you also do an amazingly wonderful one with what you sow into your children now will be reaped by the world for a lifetime, but for most I suspect it is not all you are called to be, just part of where you are now in life…

  43. [...] Interesting comment here, by this blogger.  Let me quote (since we were just talking about this very subject), emphasis mine: I do think it’s a mistake to believe–IF you do–that all older women are called by God to mentor younger women. Trust me, there are some godly older women who simply don’t have those particular gifts. That’s the trouble with the religiously popular trend of saying that a woman’s role–which is for all women–is to marry, have as many children as God sends her and her husband, homeschool them, do no paid work outside the home, and when the children are older serve as a Titus 2 woman. Honestly, that’s almost a mantra in some evangelical circles. But again, a woman’s truly godly “role”–no, not a role, but her true responsibility as a Christian, is to listen to God’s call and obey it. It’s somewhat different for every woman, which is something the “role” definers seem to totally ignore. Sadly, they make women essentially interchangeable. [...]

  44. Molly, I certainly agree that we’re a team, but the point I was trying to get at is the team has a leader according to Ephesians– so if the leader is constantly feeling questioned or his authority usurped, that’s going to be a cause for some disruption.

    Crystal, thanks for working through my questions. Certainly, while there are no kids in the house I don’t expect my wife to just stay at home doing nothing. We just believe that it’s God’s will for us to raise our gifts for Him– not someone else.

    What God orders He pays for.

  45. Posted by molly on August 29, 2006 at 12:21 am

    Aaaah, okay, I see where you were coming from. If the husband is the leader, then yes, I totally agree with you. At some point, the questions need to stop.

    As a possible member of Christians Recovering from Patriarchal Views (lol—joke, joke), I do have to add here that a husband being led by Ephesians 5 is going to care about what his wife thinks and is going to ask what her thoughts are on whatever decision needs to be made, and is going to seriously consider her opinion and prayerful words (because in one sense of their relationship, they are co-heirs and equals–1 Peter 3:7.or is it verse 8? lol).

    But, yes, a wife being led by Ephesians 5 is not going to continually badger her husband, trying to beat him over the head with her opinion and somehow make him listen… To have to lead while being continually questioned/pestered would be…torture.

    However, as a possible member of CRPV (I’m going to start that organization, I think–*grins*), I want to add that a wife not agreeing with her husband, or asking a question, is *not* necessarily the same thing as rebellion.

    Always appreciate your input, MIntheGap. :)
    Warmly,
    Molly

  46. Directed to this blog post by Keer…

    DO I EVER AGREE WITH YOU!!! But I never had the courage to say it because I guess I was too busy wondering what others would think if I did. When am I going to stop doing that and just say what needs to be said?

    Anyway, it’s a great post and I might link to it from my blog.

    Regards,
    Julie in Ohio

  47. Posted by Psalmist on August 29, 2006 at 2:52 am

    Hello. I’m visiting here for the first time because something I posted as comment on Ben Witherington’s blog was quoted by “adventures…” a little ways up. I was responding to a woman who commented there (on a post concerning the 80+ y.o. Baptist Sunday School teacher who was dismissed by her church) who seemed to be saying that she couldn’t find a Titus 2 mentor because some women are serving as teachers and pastors of congregations instead. So my comment was that not all mature Christian women are called to be “Titus 2 Women,” just as not all women are called to be ministers in congregations.

    Just wanted to clarify what was going on with that quote, since it was posted here without the *considerable* context out of which it was written.

    Great blog, BTW, Molly. I’m encouraged to see younger women discussing this issue. I think it’s very important.

    God bless!

  48. Posted by molly on August 29, 2006 at 4:06 am

    Psalmist,
    I’m glad you found this. I searched all over trying to see if you had an email address so I could tell you I quoted you–lol–and to make sure it was okay.

  49. Posted by Psalmist on August 29, 2006 at 4:19 am

    :) I don’t generally give out an e-mail address, Molly. BTDT, got the scorched monitor to prove it (as you can guess, some of what I post isn’t especially palatable in certain quarters). But yes, I’m OK with your posting it and I appreciate the thoughtful treatment my comment is receiving here. I *LOVE* it when people think…sometimes it seems a dying art in our society. :(

    Again, I really do appreciate your blog, Molly. GOOD stuff here!

  50. I posted some of my thoughts here: http://destinationgloryland.blogspot.com/2006/08/always-wanting-more.html

    Thank you for the discussion!

  51. I didn’t read all the comments (50 of them!) but came over to read your thoughts because Keer mentioned them. . .

    And Molly, this was beautifully and thoughtfully written.

    You brought up a key question that is so often overlooked (purposefully?) when you wrote, “if excercising a woman’s mind will make her discontent with being a wife and mother, then might that tell us that something is wrong either with our perception of being a wife and mother.”

    Blessings to you and yours,
    TulipGirl

  52. Ok, at the risk of throwing a complete wrench in this discussion, and having no one read it anyway since it is at the end of a long list of comments, I have some ideas to throw out.

    I think the reason we are not completely content and fullfilled at home doesn’t have to do so much with sin, per se (because we’re all aware of that possibility and dealing with it), but because the stinking model is flawed. I’m in that “traditional stay-at-home Mom” role now, but I don’t believe it is Biblical. (I heard you gasp!) I mean, I don’t see anywhere in the Scriptures this whole idea of the Husband/Dad being away from home all day working a job/doing ministry/etc. with the Wife/Mom at home alone with the kiddos.

    It is truly a drag. Dad can’t fulfill what God has called himto, and the Mom can’t fulfill what God has called her to that way. We were meant to be TOGETHER. I’m not one of those family worshippers, either. I do not think the family (large, small or otherwise) is the chief end of man. I believe the family is a tool-a means to an end.

    That end looks like Dad, Mom and the kids living life together, doing ministry side-by-side, making a living elbow-to-elbow with each other. I am fulfilled when I am serving the Lord, working, BEing with my hubby and kids. Not just Mom alone with the kiddos with Dad around here and there, nights and weekends.
    The picture I get from Scripture is Hubby and Me, joint heirs, iron sharpening iron, one flesh, fighting the good fight, preaching the Gospel, raising the kiddos, teaching the Word, worshipping, working and playing together.

    It is no wonder we are not satisfied at home the way things are! If I truly was created to help him, then he must need my help. And, if I was truly created to help him, then I must have a need to help. Not a babysitter, a maid, a cook, etc., but a Wife, a Sister-In-The-Lord with whom he can think, plan, dream, become who he was meant to be.

    I don’t know, this may be way far off from what you ladies were thinking, but it sure explains things for me. In struggling through this question, this is what my Hubby and I have discovered. Now that my kiddos are getting a little older, this is what they think, too. It is a drag being here without Dad “with” us.

    Let’s be honest-Molly is right: being a wife and mother is only “part” of who we were meant to be. But just going off on my own to find fulfillment in that other 5% fractures things at home. Doing it together with that one who still melts me with his smile is totally fulfilling to me. Just my thoughts, here, but the way it looks with the modern SAHM plan just doesn’t cut it. Nor does it resemble Scripture to me.

    In case of flames, I might not answer quickly-I’m hoping to be in labor soon.

  53. No flames here, woman. That was well said, and brings out some really good points. Now, go have a baby already!
    :lol:
    All, I know I don’t always have the time to comment individually, but THANK YOU for your thoughts. These conversations here are always so RICH, and I want you to know that I, personally, am so grateful for them.

  54. Posted by Psalmist on August 29, 2006 at 9:13 am

    Wow…congratulations, Julie! I hope you have a quick and easy labor (I know those are relative terms, though).

    I know I’m a visitor here and really quite a ways outside the “norm” for Molly’s usual commenters, but I’ve been delighted and fascinated by the discussions here today. I hope it’s OK to make an observation.

    I agree with Julie here. The “Dad away at work, Mom at home, children with Mom” model really hasn’t been the “norm” for very long at all. Until Western society stopped being mainly agrarian, it was never the norm. Even urban dwellers tended to have family businesses, what we now call the classic “Mom & Pop” enterprises. Farming families would plant, harvest, tend stock, and pretty much spend their entire lives working closely together. Merchants lived immediately adjacent to their establishments. There’s evidence that even primitive hunting peoples, if they hunted large game, included most of the community in their hunting travels, with everyone processing the kill so that nothing was wasted. While there was often a division of labor, even that was not so rigid as we often hear advocated today.

    Chances are, Jesus learned Joseph’s trade at his side, with Mary and the younger children immediately near them because there probably wasn’t much of a separate “shop.” Work would have taken place just outside the door of their house. The farthest apart we read about scripturally are the fishermen who would fish at night, though they would have sold their catches with the help of their families wherever they traded. There’s also the Proverbs 31 family, where the woman went about trading in real estate and the man consulted at the gates with the other elders, while servants tended the immediate needs of the household in their absences. This was a wealthy family; the poorer people tended to stick quite close to one another at home.

    So I think a lot of what is outlined as “biblical” (in terms of men’s and women’s roles) is actually a superimposition of upper-class, industrial age lifestyle onto Scripture. That’s not to say there’s anything inherently wrong with a woman who is free to choose to be at home and who does so, or with a man (or woman) who leaves home for employment some distance away. I just don’t see it as inherently godly, nor is it in any way a scriptural model.

  55. Psalmist and Julie,
    Yes, yes, yes! That’s what I was thinking about in comment #5 on the Titus 2 post. You gals said it much better. I think conservative Christians often look at the 1950s family as the biblical ideal, when it certainly was not. We are imposing Western/American culture on a very unwestern text.

    There does seem to be a growing trend among some conservative circles to regain this kind of whole-family lifestyle, particularly with the agrarian movement.

  56. Dear Sisters,

    Speaking as another sister who is at a different stage than most of you (And ESP YOU JULIE – as labor is the furthest thought from my mind right now.) ;) may I offer a gentle encouragement?

    I too felt that I had more to offer in life than nose and bottom wiping. I knew that my thoughts were for more than ideas of what colors to use when filling in the pictures with my toddlers. Surely the visions and ideas that flowed through my mind were for more than bedtime stories. Don’t misunderstand me, I loved being a SAHM. But there had to be more, didn’t there???

    May I encourage you to be like Mary? Store up these precious moments in your heart…. do your best to see this time of being in your home, with your Littles, as training for the next step. Nothing in God’s Kingdom is wasted. NOTHING. Not one single nose wipe, not one single diaper change. Like Joseph, we too are in training for greater things.

    I feel pretty confident that Joseph wasn’t thinking Vice-Pharaoh when he was sitting on his sorry behind in the Pit of Despair. YET, even there, the Lord was orchestrating a great plan for Joseph. He will do nothing less for us.

  57. I try (and often fail) to remember that truly, truly, this life isn’t about me. It is about how God can use me. My self satisfaction and contentment isn’t really His goal…but His name being glorified and lifted up IS.

    I try to keep His example ever before me. He poured out His life for me, and for you. I am to pour out my life for those around me….my children, my husband, others who surround me. Jesus on this earth was a servant. Period. He wasn’t “all about” drawing attention to himself, or developing His gifts, or even being fulfilled. He was “about” being a servant.

    I think if we seek to follow Him first in this way, we won’t care about demanding our “ministerial rights” as women, or even care if we are 100 percent fulfilled as a wife and mom. I think the Christian life is one of dying to ourselves.

    The incredible thing is, is…God GIVES fulfillment through the servanthood, through the “Death” of self. He GIVES us ministry opportunities, he gives us joy in our relationships.

    I truly don’t think it matters a lick if you are fulfilled at home. I don’t really even think God cares about that. I think He cares deeply about the condition of your heart.

    Frankly, if we are seeking fulfillment in anything other than Him, we are making THAT an idol (which has been spoken about, greatly, here.) If you are seeking fulfillment 100 percent from your family, that is wrong. If you are seeking fulfillment of even five percent from something else, something outside of the home…then you are wrong there too. HE is enough. Seek Him, and He will supply your fulfillment needs.

  58. I also wanted to ask…Do we REALLY have a problem today (and look at society as a whole here) with mothers being burdened down and left forlornly to wither away at home? REALLY?

    I read a statistic yesterday that stated that the nuclear family is the “new minority,” in fact, it stands at 23 percent in the United States.

    Is the deepest need in Christendom today to call mothers AWAY from their families? I think, on a VERY broad basis, (and you have to step out of the world of conservative, homeschooling, on line families here) mothers STILL need to be called to love and care for their children. So do fathers, for that matter!!!!

    Thanks for the thought provoking posts, Molly. You DO make me wrestle with what I believe…and I appreciate that.

    Praying for you, today, BTW. I’m asking for rapid healing and minimal pain for you.

  59. If anyone thinks that mothers don’t often feel burdened and shackled to the home, they aren’t engaged fully with honest mothers. I haven’t met a mother yet who hasn’t felt that way…some for years and years. I think the saddest thing is when other women act like there’s nothing to get all worked up about. Sad.

  60. Holly, I guess where I’m coming from is from a place where I have been told I must be 100% fulfilled here OR SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH *ME*.

    Just in this year, I have come to terms with that and am coming to terms with that belief system…and no longer agree with it.

    I do completely agree with what you said, though: we do NOT need to be 100% satisfied in order to be in God’s will. My own personal feelings, nice as they are when they are pleasant, are secondary. God didn’t seem to care a bunch about Moses’ feelings when He asked him to lead the Israelites out of slavery, right? Or Esther’s, when He had her marry a heathen (to a Jewish woman raised purely, that would have been a very hard blow, king though he was). etc, etc, etc…

    So what I am trying to say has nothing to do with getting women to LEAVE the home (because I think it’s rare to find a career woman who’s 100% satisfied with her life, either, and also because the children DO need someone at home, with them full time who CARES about them).

    I’m just attempting to deal with this myth, generally taught in patriarchal circles (probably primarily), that teaches that a good Christian woman will have all her needs met and wants fulfilled BECAUSE she decides to be at home full time…that IF she struggles, it’s because something is wrong with HER, there is sin in her heart, etc.

    I think we can be very satisfied (and I am) and yet still struggle sometimes and/or feel like this isn’t the only thing God has called us to, and I think that’s not a sin.

    Hope that clears it up, girl! :)

  61. Holly…
    I guess I don’t understand what you mean by “ministerial rights.” Could you explain a bit more?

    In my tradition, we believe everyone receives a call to ministry in baptism. Whether you are ordained or not, you are a minister. One is expected to uphold the responsibility of ministry in all of one’s actions (though we often fail). I’m not sure what rights any minister, any baptized believer, really has. “Take up your cross” is not a big compensation package, though (here comes the old line…) “the benefits are out of this world!” :)

  62. I enjoyed reading your post. It is an area I have struggled with and blogged about in the past. I used to think that being a SAHM was just a season of my life. But now I realize that since I am called to ministry, I am actually putting my kids before God if I put my calling on hold for the next few years. Maybe it is even a sort of idolatry….

    So now, even as my youngest is only 14 months old, I am searching for a ministry position; I am preaching in churches as a pulpit supply pastor; and I am continuing my education with certification course in preschool and children’s ministry.

    I was comfortable being a SAHM because there was no challenge; however, there was no fulfillment either. I would rather not be comfortable. I studied about the culture of SAHMs that really only dates back 50-60 years or so. I have been thinking on this topic for the past year. And I continue to pray, read, and think.

  63. molleth – fwiw, I totally understood you and agree 100% with your thoughts on the issue.

  64. Makeesha, :)

    ALin, yes, the study of our current “stay home model” is very interesting and really sheds a lot of light on things!

  65. April,

    I didn’t really mean that as anything but a little bit of side sarcasm, and I meant it lightheartedly, not with malice. I wish you could know me…I have the strangest humor and really have to hold myself back from being terribly sarcastic. I will try to not do that…I think it came from reading Garfield comics when I was growing up. :)

    Yes, I agree with you when you say that every believer is a minister. I was just talking about living in a place or stage where we are “demanding” our “rights.” I think as Christians we should choose servanthood, and if God bestows an honor or another level of ministry, then we humbly accept. You know…along the lines of “If you want to be great in God’s Kingdom, learn to be the servant of all.”

  66. I have been in that place, Holly, but am learning that sometimes servanthood means an exalted postion (exalted in MAN’S eyes, I mean).

    If God tells you to lead, then to try and take a different position is to rebel. Does that make sense?

    We see different experiences in Scripture: we see Joseph and Esther being called out of relative oblivian into leadership positions. But we see others, like Moses, being told to set themselves up as leaders (and rebuked for not obeying). So I think it really depends on God’s word to us.

    Grasping and clawing for greatness is NOT a good thing, not ever. But refusing to lift up the head from service, when Yahweh comes and tells us He wants us in a different kind of service, is equally a problem.

    That make sense? These thoughts have been in my own brain, becasue I have felt that if God wants anything more of me than serving as a wife and mother, then a flying carpet will come in and usher me to the stage (haha–joking, but only barely). ONly recently, however, I have been challenged, as I have heard God’s voice in an area, and His voice was saying the opposite: more like, “You know what I want for you, now go after it already.”

  67. Posted by Holly on September 2, 2006 at 9:09 am

    We’re really not arguing anything here, Molly. (And what are you doing online, girl?) I am saying that to seek it of one’s volition is faulty, not saying that God does not call.

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