Kari from Healed Waters recently gave us all a beautiful compliment.
There are a few places I visit where I see really big issues being talked about – in love. Controversial stuff, to be sure. But there is a real commitment to talking about the hard stuff, but loving one another and making certain that is first and foremost.
And she also emailed me a killer question, one that I think we all ask on one front or another:
So, here’s my question… Where do we draw the line?
Plain and simply, where do we just draw the line and say because the basics are there (Christ crucified, buried, rose again…) we should just love brothers and sisters in Christ…and where do we, in love, point out some pretty grave issues in doctrine?
For example…praying to Mary and saints…It’s a pretty touchy subject with me. I went to Catholic school for nine years. Though not a surrendered, in any way, Follower, in any way, I actually studied this quite a bit even then and could never find any scriptural justification for it. So, do we just turn our heads? Love ‘em and never say anything? Or is part of love speaking the truth?
I’m really burdened by this. Have been for some time – having so many friends in the “Catholic church” from way back when.
Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.
Posted by Lindsey on September 25, 2006 at 9:28 pm
Kari (and all),
You’ve asked the same question I’ve been asking myself for a while now. I do think that part if love is speaking the truth…in love. But I don’t think we need to do that *every* time we get into a spiritual conversation with our brothers and sisters in the Catholic or Orthodox churches. Paul (um, the NT writer, not the commenter here
frequently admonished the churches to love right doctrine, and not be held captive by foolish philosophies. But I wonder if he was only speaking of the essentials, like in the Apostles/Nicene creeds. hmmmm…
But 1 Cor 13, love seems to be the key. One of the things God has been working on in me the past year or so is a sincere love of the brethren. I know that I had been holding the people in my church up to this imaginary standard that said they were less of a Christian if the wife worked out of the home, the kids were in public school, etc. etc. ad nauseum. And I was thinking less of them because they didn’t meet my standards. Well God finally just blew the doors off that assumption. He opened my eyes to see how much my church has a heart for Jesus, and how much these people truly seek Him, and seek to conform their lives to His. And that I had better start loving them as much as they loved me, despite my quirks and faults.
I know that God has also broadened my view of the Body of Christ in the past year. I have gone from a very Protestant mindset to finding home in a little Anglican Church that is passionate for Jesus.
But the Mary issue is a pretty big issue. I think that is something that would be appropriate to discuss with Catholic friends, to point out that it is not supported by Scripture. But I don’t think it’s something which you should part ways over. Point out the truth *in love,* but then leave the Holy Spirit to do His work.
Okay, so I don’t think I really addressed the question/issue, but this is what popped into my mind. So, there it is. sorry I rambled so much.
Posted by Paul on September 26, 2006 at 1:53 am
Hi Molly – another great post, making me reflect and rethink/repent again…
I have so many responses to this Q over the years of my life following Christ – usually it would involve some of comparing of my religious best to (fill in denomination) their worst… my best wisdom to their worst foolishness, my right way of doing things to their wrong…
You have to of course understand it was never a mutual way, no way did I ever allow that sort of comparison to be done to me cos I’d be way to angry to listen and way to quick to tell folk where they were wrong…
The trouble with a phrase like ‘truth in love’ for me was that it was the silk glove in which I wrapped the iron bar – or to put it another way it was the excuse to tell people where they were wrong, foolish, in error. Now funnily enough when I got to thinking about Jesus one of the things I realised he is the love wrapped in truth and the truth wrapped in love and he never once seemed to take an iron bar to anyone, altho i grant you he came pretty close to doing so with the pharisees.
The more I thought I wonder why, the more I couldn’t help thinking that maybe it was cos the Pharisees were people like me who knew where everyone was going wrong and told em, who made everyone follow God their way or the highway, who were so keen on defining who was in and who was out that the guest list kept shrinking all the time and the dress code requirements kept getting tighter and tighter (funny though they were of course always in). They were God’s appointed bouncers and if your name wasn’t down on their list (which somehow they assumed was God’s list) then you weren’t getting in…
No wonder Jesus gave these people a hard time, they had missed the point big time and yet these were the people who were passionate about the scriptures, zealous for God, scupulous in their morals etc etc. In fact everything I aspired to be like – so it made me wonder if Jesus might want to go a few rounds with me, if he’d say heh look your kind of christian is not my kind of christian, even though you recognise me and believe stuff about me you’ve missed me and what I’m about, what God is doing, who God is for and who’s church it is. That was an ouch moment (I’d recommend a great book called extreme righteousness as well which was like the best challenge I ever had to my evengelical blind spots
).
So back to your Q – the more I reflect on it the more I think that Romans 14-15 ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2014-15:13;&version=51 ) is the way for growing maturity about these things. To lift the quotes from the start and the end for those who haven’t got much time:
“1Accept Christians who are weak in faith, and don’t argue with them about what they think is right or wrong. 2For instance, one person believes it is all right to eat anything. But another believer who has a sensitive conscience will eat only vegetables. 3Those who think it is all right to eat anything must not look down on those who won’t. And those who won’t eat certain foods must not condemn those who do, for God has accepted them. 4Who are you to condemn God’s servants? They are responsible to the Lord, so let him tell them whether they are right or wrong. The Lord’s power will help them do as they should….
….5May God, who gives this patience and encouragement, help you live in complete harmony with each other–each with the attitude of Christ Jesus toward the other. 6Then all of you can join together with one voice, giving praise and glory to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
7So accept each other just as Christ has accepted you; then God will be glorified. 8Remember that Christ came as a servant to the Jews to show that God is true to the promises he made to their ancestors. 9And he came so the Gentiles might also give glory to God for his mercies to them….”
Outside of believing IN Jesus rather than ABOUT him most other practices like praying to the Saints are right up there with food cooked by idols or what days are holy. I think mature Christians shrug their shoulders and go ok cool if that is going to help you follow Jesus then heh its harmless, at least you’re praying right?
It is also clear from the pages of the NT that there are times to confront when people are teaching that orgies, exploiting people, manipulation etc are part of worshipping Jesus. There are also heresies of faith that I might have and again that would need confronting – but I think such confronting should be able a desire for the person, out of a love for them, out of a conversation and listening to them and where they are coming from and what they believe or don’t believe. It’s far too easy to label anything or anyone that I hear about who seems to have some sort of different practice as a cult/heretic etc without ever even meeting such a person/group let alone striking up a relationship of love in which we might be able to share some truth with each other…who knows they might push back at me for my pride, my ignorance, my own judgements and assumptions etc…
I wonder how often I write off people who might be in a different part of the book, just cos they are not on the same page of the story that I am? I fear sadly it’s too often…and I need to keep repenting/rethinking about this whole subject.
Posted by Patricia on September 26, 2006 at 3:58 am
Molly, though I seldom comment, I have been closely following all of your conversations, and like Kari, I am most appreciative of the tone that has been set here. “Surely the presence of the Lord is in this place.” IMHO, I think it is right and good that there is discussion on issues like the one Kari presented, but if they are done in public (internet) they should be general and not pointed at a specific person, and even then the discussions should be motivated by love for others and a humble desire to understand and be as one. If I have a friend who is Catholic and I believe that there are no scriptural justifications for her prayers to Mary, etc. (and that is my belief),out of a spirit of love for her (not my own desire to be right and set her straight) and a desire to understand her, I should discuss the issue with her in private.
Have I always practiced what I am now preaching?
Shamefuly, I have not. Recently, I found myself on the receiving end of judgment from other Christians and that is when the Lord took me to the woodshed – again – over my own tendency to be judgmental.
As Paul stated above, the Pharisees – legalists – were the recipients of Jesus’ harshest words.
More often than not, my prayers lately have been, “Lord, show me the error of *MY* ways.”
Posted by sara on September 26, 2006 at 4:33 am
I stay away from this topic usually. Not that it shouldn’t be addressed but for ME, personally, I never want to come off even slightly as Catholic bashing. (I know that’s not what’s happening here – I’m just saying for ME.) I’ve seen religious writings that make Catholicsim out to be everything from a type of voodoo to an actual tool of the devil. I used to work in a Christian bookstore and I made sure to stay far away from the Chick tracts. There is a blogger (many I’m sure) who is so anti-Catholic that it turns my stomach. Couldn’t the issues be addressed in love if at all? Shouldn’t beams be removed from our own eyes first? AND Another Thing – I’ve discovered that there is usually nothing as zealous as an ex-
Catholic – unless it’s an ex-smoker.
Posted by tonia on September 26, 2006 at 6:06 am
I wonder if relationship isn’t the key in a big part of this? Are we talking about strangers on a blog? an acquaintance? a friend from real life? My response to each of these people would be entirely different, I think.
I do believe that for our words to have the most weight – i.e. if we really want people to hear the truth – we need to SHOW our love for them first.
I think “love” is the context we speak truth in…not just a good intention, or a nice tone of voice, or even an overarching love for humanity…but a tangible atmosphere of love that earns us the right to then speak truth.
Perhaps before we correct someone’s doctrine we should be asking ourselves what we have done to serve them, to listen to them, to pray for them and understand their needs. Perhaps we need to be praying that God will *first* fill our hearts with active love for them – no matter what their doctrine/errors. At the very least we should be listening for a long time before we start speaking.
~I agree with Paul that “truth in love” is often the glove on the iron bar. “This is good for you!” doesn’t equate love.
Love is patient, kind, long-suffering, gentle…..
Posted by Cassandra on September 26, 2006 at 6:18 am
This is a subject close to my heart,as my dad’s entire side of the family is Catholic- very devout, practicing Catholics. (he is number six out of 12!) I have done research on Catholicsm, so I know where to come from when witnessing to my family. It’s a scary thing. They throw alot of ‘good stuff’ in there just to make it seem like it really is Biblical, but in all honesty, I believe that almost all of it is false doctrine. No, I don’t beleive that we should just look the other way when confronted with Catholicsm. I beleive that it is our duty as Christians that believe in the death, burial, resurrection, and ’saved by grace through the blood’, to *gently* tell Catholics where their doctrinal belief doesn’t line up with the Bible. And give ‘em Scripture to prove it! I have to admit, I have failed greatly in this area with my family. They are old school- once a Catholic, always a Catholic. I have witnessed, prayed, lived my life by example, and there has been one out of 12 that has been saved. It’s tough. It breaks my heart when I see them praying to Mary, crossing themselves, talking about Lent, seeing the priest, etc… their whole salvation is based upon their good works- nothing else. They beleive in praying people out of purgatory, etc…I was very adament when my dad died from ALS at 17, (praise God he was led to the Lord by a Baptist preacher when I was 1!) that my aunts not pray the rosary over him.
I don’t beleive we should blast Catholics away- “You are believing a lie! You are all damned to hell!” That type of thing, but we do need to speak the truth in love. I have actually met a family of Catholics that I beleive were saved. They didn’t beleive in praying to Mary, or that good works get them to Heaven. There are exceptions out there. But it’s very rare. Just talk to my 10 aunts and uncles, and hundreds of cousins, and you will see what I mean. It breaks my heart in two.
Posted by Cassandra on September 26, 2006 at 6:25 am
Now, if I could just learn how to spell the word believe, eh? = )
Posted by Cassandra on September 26, 2006 at 6:27 am
Oh, and my dad died when *I* was 17, not when he was. I guess I really should re-read what I write, shouldn’t I? Hey- I have three kids- I have to fly when I am on the computer.
Posted by Junelle on September 26, 2006 at 7:26 am
I am just overwhelmed by the posts here. This is the real stuff, the goings on in the trenches for me, you know. No fluff…I am so grateful to you all for being real and sharing yourselves, it really blesses me and helps me in my christian walk.
I see and feel the struggles of watching and waiting and sharing and being frustrated by all our family and friends in the same sort of religious trap. I feel it deeply in my heart and it just tears me up. I just loved what Paul shared, it really convicted me about how Jesus would view my walk among these folks. I go from being very bold and offending everyone to being silent (just doing the walk, right?) and then being convicted about not doing enough. I really think that speaking out to those caught in false beliefs is part of what Christ calls Christians to do. I don’t like it. It isn’t what I thought I signed up for. I am not good at it. I am emotionally beat up over it. I just know that I can’t live my life looking out the window here in my town knowing that people are spiritually starving.
I have been taught this summer a better way. I learned that the best thing I can do is to speak Jesus to them. I don’t spend near the time or energy talking about “what’s wrong” anymore. I just share the awesome-ness of Jesus all over them and when they flinch (they do…) or try to correct what I am saying, I just share the big, awesome, wonderful, filling, mind blowing, powerful, GLORY of God all over them even more! Even if they don’t open their eyes or ears to hear it, it see it as exciting all the little atoms all around them…and they can’t help but feel it. He does the job, I just do the introductions, right? (He promised that “Heavenly Father would pull the weeds” ) It still takes stepping forward to share.
I had a travelling “white witch” (wicca) come over on Saturday to tell me about the good energies surrounding the little prayer house we own (Well, it is God’s house you know!). She noticed that the town is 99% mormon and wanting to know if I was frusterated by that. I told her that it was difficult for me, she said, “Don’t let it bother you. Just look at all of them and say — Oh, look, poor things, they are lost in a fog.” I just hooted! (Then I spoke Jesus to her until she ran from my house!)
We have to say something. We can’t let them all wander around in a fog because we think that not saying something is loving them.
Junelle
Posted by Lindsey on September 26, 2006 at 7:52 am
Junelle,
I love what you said about speaking Jesus to people rather than about their wrong doctrine. That’s what I want to do, to be. If it truly is all about Him (and it is!) then that’s what we should be sharing. Sister, I’m learning so much from your honesty and your obvious, overflowing, and abounding love for Jesus. It is so good to see the faith through fresh and new eyes.
Posted by Kari on September 26, 2006 at 7:58 am
Just some thoughts to clarify…though I don’t think anyone has misinterpreted me thus far, the possibility certainly exists! And *many thanks* Molly for such a *safe* place to come talk about the hard things that we think or wonder, but sometimes we dare not say aloud!
I’m not really talking about any particular situation here. I am pondering, questionning, praying over generalities, what-if’s, how would I handle this, that, or the other. A particular situation started me ruminating, but in truth there is no relationship there and as several people pointed out, that relationship is essential.
(Or, is it…? Because in many cases I don’t think we are just talking about manifestations of a faith or how that faith “looks” as we are actually talking about serious stumbling blocks to an understanding that salvation is by faith alone…such that the faith isn’t being added on to – but that that many, many, many are relying upon something far different from faith for their salvation.)
As Molly’s heart has been pricked for a certain people and her life circumstances have so perfectly been molded by God to reach out to those very people, so too there is a huge burden on my heart for a “people” and that heaviness is leading to a lot of pondering and pontificating. But, as I said, they are not the kind of thoughts or ponderings most of us usually find ourselves discussing out loud.
Please understand my background here in that I grew up in a predominantly Catholic state, in a predominantly Catholic neighborhood, and was one of few non-Catholics in Catholic schools for nine years. For those nine years, 4th-12th grades, I had religion class every school day with the exception of one semester. In truth, I know a lot more about Catholic doctrine, teachings, etc. than many “nominal” Catholics who have but attended mass and been through the sacraments. When I speak of Catholics, I see neighbors whom I love as a second mother, friends with whom I shared many a secret and memory, teachers who inspire me still. They are people whom I love dearly. Who happen to be Catholic.
I grew up hearing from many a source that I was going to hell because I was not Catholic. Despite Vatican 2, there remained a prevailing belief you could not go to Heaven if you were not a member of the Catholic – and by Catholic they didn’t mean universal, then – church. They were right on one account. I was not saved by any stretch of the imagination. But they were wrong, too, in that it had nothing at all to do with being Catholic. It had *everything* to do with not believing ON Christ, trusting in Him, and bowing to Him as Lord of my life. Looking back, my heart sinks at how many teachings of the Catholic church miss the point entirely. Sadly to the extent that I agonize over the lost therein.
I am not saying there aren’t a lot of lost souls everywhere!!! And I am not saying every person in the Catholic church is a lost soul. I believe it is certainly possible, and I suspect I have known more than a few believers within the Catholic church. I could name a few of them, even. I am that convinced of their walk with the Lord.
But there *are* some serious issues with the doctrine of the Catholic church. If I were to tell Molly in an e-mail, or she should read it on my blog (after about a year of “knowing” her through blogs, forums, etc.) that I was praying to anyone other than God, I most certainly pray she would, in love, call me on it. Better yet, I pray she’d ask me to validate my position with scripture. But, gosh, from the other side of this – knowing what I now know, I would hope *anyone* would have called me on it. Because it *is* serious.
Paul wrote:
“Outside of believing IN Jesus rather than ABOUT him most other practices like praying to the Saints are right up there with food cooked by idols or what days are holy. I think mature Christians shrug their shoulders and go ok cool if that is going to help you follow Jesus then heh its harmless, at least you’re praying right?”
I respectfully disagree. First of all, praying to the saints and, more especially to Mary, is more often than not done at the exclusion of praying to God. In fact, if we pray to anyone other than God aren’t we at that very moment doing so at the exclusion to prayers to Him? The vast majority of the people I know coming out of Catholic churches *aren’t* following Jesus *at all* but following systems, sacraments, and rules — if they are following anything at all. I am not talking about people with whom I have no background. I am talking about people I have lived with, played with, worked with, *worshipped* with. I know those about whom I write here.
My burden here is how far away from scripture some of this doctrine is – such as that Mary was without sin. Forever.
(493 The Fathers of the Eastern tradition call the Mother of God “the All-Holy” (Panagia), and celebrate her as “free from any stain of sin, as though fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature”.138 By the grace of God Mary remained free of every personal sin her whole life long.)
That, according to Catholic catechism, Mary’s continued intercession in heaven brings us the gift of eternal salvation…
…969 “This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.”512
That he was not just God’s handmaid, but is the mother of the church – and *our* mother…
…975 “We believe that the Holy Mother of God, the new Eve, Mother of the Church, continues in heaven to exercise her maternal role on behalf of the members of Christ” (Paul VI, CPG § 15).
971 “All generations will call me blessed”: “The Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship.”515 The Church rightly honors “the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of ‘Mother of God,’ to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . .
…intrinsic to Christian worship…?!?!
(All texts copied straight from The Catholic Catechism, by the way)
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p6.htm
It’s not *just* the issues about Mary, though…
“Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.”
…and properly baptized?
More on baptism:
“He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336″
…can’t be saved without a willingness to be baptized? It took me many months of searching the scripture to come to a place of surrender on baptism. Was I any less saved in those months than at that moment at fell at the Savior’s feet?
What of their approach to the Muslim faith?
“841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”330″
If anyone is actually reading all this, my deep concern is how very much in the Catholic doctrine, teaching, etc. veers from scripture, needs to be explained by page upon page upon page of extrabiblical text, and doesn’t focus on grace through faith. My heart’s cry is for how many men and women have been deceived into thinking that to be a good “Catholic” one has gained, even earned?, salvation – have left the church altogether for the complexity of it all. Have stumbled, and rightly so, perhaps, over all this extraBiblical teaching which doesn’t enhance their faith or walk with Christ, but gets in the way of it.
I don’t mean to say it is all people who practice Catholicism. Or only people who practice Catholicism versus any other organized religion/denomination. I don’t mean to say all of Catholic teaching has it wrong. Much of it is right on target. But so very much of it is so far from the Bible – where do we, in our own minds, draw a line in the sand? Not to say they are saved or not, not to say I am better than they or my own religion better than theirs (I’ve had to address an awful lot in this evil heart of mine in all this, I assure you.) But at what point do we look at an entire body and grieve for the errancies in pages, pages, and pages upon pages of their teaching. At what point do we groan for generations being taught that which is not in scripture? At what point *do* we start to step out, purposely seek relationships with them, and purpose to be missionaries as much to them as anyone else, rather than shrugging our shoulders and say they are just on a “different page?”
I can’t even begin to express how my heart cries for generations of “good Catholics” who know not at all the saving grace of Christ. From my relationships with them. From eating meals with them, sleeping in sleeping bags next to them, studying with them, praying with them, living with them.
As if any of that clarifies anything!
In Christ alone,
Kari
Posted by sara on September 26, 2006 at 8:01 am
Junelle! “I learned that the best thing I can do is to speak Jesus to them. I don’t spend near the time or energy talking about “what’s wrong” anymore.” Yes! It’s the same when giving a testimony – it should be one’s OWN testimony and not a list of do’s and don’ts backed up by scripture. We’re not trying to win points in a debate, but to show the life changing love of Christ.
You really made me laugh out loud with how you handled the witch: “(Then I spoke Jesus to her until she ran from my house!)” How can anyone doubt the power of God’s love after something like that?
Further, nearly every church I’ve ever been in has had IMO some doctrinal errors. How big do they need to be before I either confront the errors or discontinue “fellowship?”
Posted by Cassandra on September 26, 2006 at 8:01 am
Amen, amen, amen, Kari!
Posted by sara on September 26, 2006 at 8:10 am
I also wonder if God couldn’t do a powerful work in the Catholic church along the lines of what happened with the Worldwide Church of God. http://www.wcg.org/lit/aboutus/history.htm
It’s something that has been on my heart lately. I even shared with my mom that I wonder if God isn’t calling me to the Catholic church in some capacity. (I think she nearly had a heart attack – she had 12 years of Catholic school and is very glad to be free.) My dad would throw a party – I was christened as an infant in the Catholic church and of course, “once a Catholic . . .” even if you only go to church six times in your life.
Posted by molleth on September 26, 2006 at 8:10 am
MAN, what great great great comments that deserve to be their own seperate blog posts… Sheesh, you guys are so great!
I don’t have time to comment more than this right now (I’m taking our [GREAT] outdoor male cat off to our friend and Veteranarian so that the “he” can become an “it,” poor guy, er, um, I mean, poor thing), but just hopped on to read and wanted to let you all know how much I appreciate your thoughts.
Posted by Kari on September 26, 2006 at 8:43 am
sara – me, too – about being called to the Catholic church in some capacity…
Posted by Lindsey on September 26, 2006 at 8:47 am
Kari,
Wow…wow. That is some seriously unbiblical stuff the Catholic church is teaching. That’s where I draw the line. How can they say such stuff about Mary as co mediatrix when Jesus clearly says HE is *the* way *the* truth and *the* life? And what about “there is one mediator between God and man, Jesus Christ.”
Thank you for clarifying and sharing that information.
hmmmm, more stuff to ponder about being loving.
Posted by Heidi on September 26, 2006 at 8:57 am
This subject of speaking the truth in love is near to my heart because my husband and I have walked through this very difficult path. I agree that we need to examine ourselves first and foremost. We absolutely need to walk the walk of faith in our own lives and proclaim the mighty works of our Creator with enthusiasm. We need to be willing to lay down our lives in prayer for others. Of these there is no doubt, but in our walk of obedience to Christ, we need to obey when He says to say something to someone regarding an area of sin in their lives.
You see, my husband and I walked around an issue for years, praying and talking to each other, seeking the Lord for wisdom, when the conviction of God became so strong to say something to the individuals involved, that we were miserable until we obeyed. That obedience has cost us deeply in damaged relationship that after 3 years we are only seeing glimpses of hope for some sort of reconciliation.
Did we speak in love? We know in our hearts that our motivation was love for them. Can we look back and see how we could have done better? Unfortunately, yes. Have we been criticized and ostracized for what we said and how we handled it? Over and over and over.
YET, we had peace beyond understanding when we finally obeyed the Lord and spoke what He had been convicting us to do. In spite of the agony and pain in relationship with others, the peace with God was worth it all. We WILL be persecuted for taking a stand for truth and righteousness.
Now, I’m not saying that we should go around blabbing our mouths to whomever and whenever. Like I stated initially, our primary focus should be on ourselves and what God wants to change in our lives. We need to lay a foundation of prayer (and possibly fasting) for another whom we are concerned. Many (and likely most) times that is as far as it should go. BUT, if after this, God does direct us to confront sin, we need to in His timing and by His direction.
The hard part comes when the recipient does not receive what you say as being said in love. I admit, this is hard for me as well. When someone points out an area of my life that needs to be addressed, it is easy for me to say, “I won’t even receive that because I didn’t feel any love in what that person said or how they said it. It must not be from God.” God uses imperfect people to speak into our lives at times and I need to be willing to truly seek His heart on an issue, no matter what was said, how it was said, or by whom. This is where humility comes in…an area that I need a lot of work in.
One other thing, after we initially relayed our concern, we were very willing to not discuss the issue again and move on. We had no need to see the individuals “change” before we would be around them. We stated what God directed us to say and how they responded to it was between them and God in our eyes. Unfortunately things did not go as we had hoped and it has been a long, difficult road. We have had to respond in love over and over when we have been thrown an onslaught of very hurtful comments and actions. I praise the Lord that my husband and I were in unity so that when one of us was tempted to respond less-than-lovingly, the other was there to help keep the other from falling and keep the focus on Jesus.
Despite all of this pain, God has drawn my husband and I closer to each other and to Himself. We have learned much and have grown much. In many respects, God has already used this whole situation for His good in our lives.
Just thought I’d give a real-life example to add to the discussion.
Posted by Kari on September 26, 2006 at 9:25 am
Thanks Heidi,
I hear your pain, but also your joy at what God has brought out of the situation. My husband and I had a similar situation with a church body with whom we had a very long and loving relationship. It *is* hard when it it not received in love – even when it is spoken very much that way. We lost many friends who were not privy to details. To whom *we* spoke not a word about it. But we remain close to the pastor, and our dear friend, there to this day, despite our differences of opinion on the matter.
In Christ alone,
Kari
Posted by Paul on September 26, 2006 at 10:17 am
I am not trying to undermine the experience and feelings of folk who have decided that it is not for them and that the Catholic church is not how they feel called to express their faith. I applaud and admire you for following your call that you have felt and the care and love that you feel for your families and friends. I think that is in itself an awesome thing and that these can feel like heavy weighty matters of the heart upon which I have no room to intrude other than to recognise your convictions and courage.
I also appreciate the fullness of the thoughts that have been expressed here and indeed it makes me grateful for my protestant heritage (although I’m a jnr kid on the block really, to write off catholicism is to write off over 1500 yrs of church history before Luther found the 39 articles or less queue
).
I appreciate the catachism link as well, although http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM from a brief overview Mary is way down the list and there seems to be plenty of emphasis on Jesus – and I never realised that catachism is built round a creed that I have no problem in saying/reciting. Again I just wonder about comparing my best with others worst – it’s easy to highlight that weird teaching on Mary but then in its context in the whole of the catachism maybe it is not so clear cut. If I and my catholic brothers/sisters can both agree on the main headings of the creed which is afterall our shared heritage (ok i am going to steal it from them and claiming it as a protestant teaching, we all know the apostles and bishops at nicene were evengelicals
). I know many protestants claim that unless you are a protestant and subscribe to sola fide (faith alone) you are out just as many catholics clearly do the opposite, although i guess vatican 2 means it’s no longer the official position of the church?
Personally I cannot judge every catholic or indeed protestant as to whether they believe in Jesus or not, indeed that is not my place. My feeling is that there are many who do believe in Jesus (I want to say can a billion catholics who are currently in the world be wrong but then again there’s probably another 4.5 billion who disagree so heh that ain’t gonna fly
).
I know I appreciate the heritage of sola fide http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_fide (although Luther had his own motives for pushing it – not least the ongoing conflict he was having with the catholic church of the authority of scripture vs tradition/church office).
Although i find there is a thin line really between protestant and catholic/orthodox teaching – for instance Luther wanted to axe the book of James, a gospel of straw as he put it, for the way faith and works are intergrated. I am sure both catholics and protestants muddle through this shared walk and the bible seems ot make it a case of both/and rather than either or: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_fide#Sola_fide_and_Scripture and if we are making a judgement based on fruit I think the catholic church makes mission combined with social justice far more intergral than us disjointed double speaking protestants have done (well thant should get me a lynching
lol). Ok I know there are many good protestant charities etc but most of the time it is a protestant para church organisation rather than a protestant church denomination itself, thus keeping faith n works nicely seperated and pretty much optional.
Posted by Paul on September 26, 2006 at 10:44 am
I will shutup in just a second but I never knew catholics had such a protestant perspective on grace http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P6Z.HTM – have we stolen, begged and borrowed all our history from them???
Posted by molleth on September 26, 2006 at 11:36 am
I know…the issues with Catholisicm are made even more confusing when you compare what some Protestant books *say* the Catholics teach, versus what they actually *do* teach.
The praying to saints, for example. The Protestants say that Catholics are praying to saints just as a person would pray to God.
Whereas the Catholic teaching is that the saints, though dead, are still alive and are watching us (Hebrews 11–the great cloud of witnesses).
So when they “pray to saints,” they are just petitioning the saints to pray for them in the same way that we tell a friend our own prayer requests and ask that they would pray for us. We pray for eachother, right? Well, the Catholics just feel that Christians can pray for eachother, both in heaven and on earth. And they do have some Scriptural support for that notion, not to mention church history from the get-go.
So it’s one of those things that, when rightly understood, isn’t quite as “desperate” of a situation as the Protestant view has made it seem. And that’s just one example.
It’s a difference of opinion, but does it take away from Christ being central? Not in my opinion.
However, I do feel that issues of Mary [being co-redemptrix] and of purgatory [including the idea of paying for our sins in this life, too] are major. This is because they effect how we view the work of Christ. Was it good enough to pay for our sins? Did He need someone else to do the job? Do we need to pay for them too, in order to “complete” the job?
These things, for me, are major issues, not minor ones, because they affect the centrality of Christ.
BUT, that said, it doesn’t mean I always need to say that. Or that I can’t think that my Roman Catholic friends aren’t my brothers and sisters.
I think we should assume they are until proven otherwise, you know, just as we do our Protestant brothers and sisters (though *their* doctrines take MANY turns and variations in the wide world we call Protestantism!).
Meaning, we can discuss these things, SURE, but when it is *right* to discuss those things…to do it carefully, to offend only if one is sure that the Spirit is leading to do so, to take great pains to walk in love, to take great pains to NOT go by the information written in anti-Catholic books but to go to the Roman Catholic books themselves, to the Roman Catholic friends, to hear *their* take on it (not just the “anti-” position).
Another thought: if Christianity rests soley upon doctrinal ducks being in a row, than anyone studying Church History would have to conclude that no one has been saved up till now (if you think that your little group has it all together, that is).
Because Church History is one big fat ADVENTURE of trying to figure this thing out, and the Church has, honestly, been all over the map in the course of this adventure. The fact that God didn’t write a simple little rulebook has often been a major frustration of mine…why didn’t He make this easier, for crying out loud?
(But I think I know the answer…if it was about having it all figured out, there would be no need for the Nature that is so completely Other to be living in and through me, there would be no need, then, for the Law of Love)…
Okay, I gotta run help my daughter with something… more later!
Love you all,
Molly
Posted by crickl's nest on September 26, 2006 at 11:55 am
I did a word study on ‘arguments’ and it was eye opening. Most places are similar to Titus 3:8-10, in that they teach us to warn or correct once or twice at the most, then lay it down. It was in the context of people in the same belief system/same church. I don’t quite know how to apply it to friends in the Catholic belief system. There are some wild doctrines, but the basics of sin and needing Jesus salvation are there, so I can’t say they are not believers. I just can’t agree with that. Jesus said believe and follow and I know a lot of Catholics who do just that.
As for the things they add to the Word about Mary and saints and confession, etc etc etc….is it in vain to try discuss it with them? Sometimes it is and I think at that point we need to lay it down and focus on what we have in common. Other times you might have an open dialog with a Catholic person who is open to what the Bible says, which is a profitable situation.
Here is one of our experiences. My husband is a pastor and has had to deal with couples who are divided in the religion department. One is Catholic, one is an evangelical believer. We had 2 couples like that in our very recently former church. In both cases, the wife was arguing constantly with the husband h their beliefs in the Catholic church. He couseled each of them to focus on the main thing….Jesus and the Bible. He told them to ask forgiveness of the spouse in arguing and ask the spouse to try to focus on Jesus and the Word.
After they put this into practice, they both noticed how God brought them together with their spouse. One of couplets started praying together and reading the Bible together. And both couples began coming to our small group because they really respected my husband for respecting them and helping their marriages. My husband and I both would tell you these are Christian men, committed to Christ and following Him. One of them did find some things that he thought were wrong in the Catholic church, but did not leave it. But the respect and acceptance of them as fellow believers opened the dialog and God really used it in ALL of our lives. It was amazing to see.
Oh, here is another quick experience from my sister in law. Her husband is Catholic and they were at odds. So she decided to let him be the leader and started going with him to that church. She got involved in a ladies’ Bible study group and she was the only one who knew how to pray without a prayer book (!) so they always asked her to pray. Then some of the others began to learn that it was just talked to God and they started volunteering to pray too. She said those ladies might never have learned to pray if she hadn’t laid down her hardness toward their ‘added’ beliefs and met them on equal ground.
So, that is what I found in my quick word study and from personal experience. I didn’t have time to read through all the comments, but I know there are always great things said here. Maybe I’ll come back later and really read through it. I wanted to share though, because this is close to my heart!
Posted by crickl's nest on September 26, 2006 at 11:56 am
I hope I don’t smell like spam…..it just ate my comments again! lol
Maybe it’s because I take too long to send it….from the time I opened this page to comment, I’ve had to make lunch and give Maggie a spelling test!
Posted by Heidi on September 26, 2006 at 11:58 am
I agree Molly. My husband grew up Catholic and even though he disagrees with the same things as you (i.e. Mary, purgatory, the Rosary), there are MANY misconceptions out there regarding the Catholic church. We have been amazed at the construed ideas of the Catholic beliefs from those that have just “heard about” what the Catholics believe and practice. My husband has been able to shed some light, thankfully. If there really are doctrinal issues of concern, and we believe that there are, we better be sure to have our understanding straight.
Posted by Kari on September 26, 2006 at 12:05 pm
Just a note – I don’t think Molly was trying to suggest otherwise, but everything I quoted above was directly from the Catholic Catechism.
Posted by Heidi on September 26, 2006 at 12:24 pm
Kari, just to let you know that I wasn’t implying that either. I was just relaying what we have experienced from those we know. I would also add that many Catholics don’t necessarily know what the Catholic church believes on every front either. My husband’s family was very involved (with two uncles being ordained Catholic priests) and he went to Catholic school. That’s not the case for all who call themselves Catholic or were Catholic at one time.
Posted by Kari on September 26, 2006 at 12:48 pm
Molly said: “Another thought: if Christianity rests soley upon doctrinal ducks being in a row, than anyone studying Church History would have to conclude that no one has been saved up till now (if you think that your little group has it all together, that is).”
But there is a difference between doctrinal ducks being in a row…and teaching which comes from man. Because if it doesn’t come from the scripture – what’s its source? Does that make sense? There are some doctrines out there which I just don’t “get” – like the differering opinions regarding baptism. But when I hear the two sides, the “arguments” are, well, close enough to scripture that I have to say I just don’t know. Take the role of women in the church, as you have been discussing. Again, I just don’t know for certain. But this is more than confusion about an issue. It’s adding to scripture…calling Mary the “All-Holy One.” (see below)
(More from the Catholic Catechism:
Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death: By asking Mary to pray for us, we acknowledge ourselves to be poor sinners
and we address ourselves to the “Mother of Mercy,” the All-Holy One.
We give ourselves over to her now, in the Today of our lives. and our trust broadens further, already at the present moment, to surrender “the hour of our death” wholly to her care. May she be there as she was at her son’s death on the cross. May she welcome us as our mother at the hour of our passing38 to lead us to her son, Jesus, in paradise.”) I didn’t leave anything out, just broke that up to emphasize.
And, no, it certainly doesn’t mean that someone is not my brother or my sister, but if you as a sister in Christ is over here blogging about praying to Mary – having swapped e-mail for some time, I’m gonna call you on it!
I certainly hope if someone finds something that major in something I have written that they will call me on it. And, quite frankly, sometimes it is easier for a stranger to do that because they have less to lose. Sometimes we say we love someone else…when what we really mean is we love ourselves so much we don’t want to risk losing what *we* have in that friendship to help them come to a different place.
I don’t mean to suggest beating a dead horse with someone. But why the prevailing attitude that those in the Catholic church are off-limits as far as iron sharpening iron? Not in that we can’t learn from them, but that we can’t be used to sharpen them. That we should just shrug our shoulders and let it be.
Do we believe scripture teaches this:
“Like the beloved disciple we welcome Jesus’ mother into our homes, for she has become the mother of all the living. ”
Or do we not?
If they are brothers and sisters (and being non-denominational to the point of not even liking to distinguish between Catholic and Protestant, myself – we are all one in Christ), as I believe they are (if they have believed on Christ…) why the prevailing attitude (not from you, Molly – just in general) that we need not deal with it some way, shape, or form? If I was teaching these things on my blog, in a forum, or in an e-mail, professing Christ – but *not* the Catholic church – would anyone here love me enough to call me on what *I* was writing?
I mean it as food for thought, is all..
Posted by crickl's nest on September 26, 2006 at 1:59 pm
Junelle…thank you for your post! (I just had time to read through a lot of the comments.) We had Mormons and a lot of wicca in the small town we just left. You are a light when you lift up Jesus…when we argue doctrines, we leave dissention!
I wonder what the witch is thinking. Upon her own admission you have such wonderful energy. Then you speak of Jesus until she feels the need to run off. I hope and am praying that the veil will be lifted for her to see the Truth and the Hope that you have in Him. (!!!)
Posted by Kari on September 26, 2006 at 2:27 pm
oooh…I’m afraid that sounded like I meant that was the prevailing attitude here – which it isn’t… I just meant, you know, that vague “out there…”
Posted by Julianna on September 26, 2006 at 3:13 pm
If you speak in truth, you are speaking in love, and vice verse. God IS love. That is what comprises both His Divine Essence (that part we do not see – the Face of God) and His Divine Energy (that part which we can expericene). There is NO Love apart from God. God IS truth! He created it; truth had no existence before God brought it into being. In *true* reality the two are inseparable. The problem is that we are so filled with our own self will that WE separate them and think we can unlovingly offend someone with the truth. That is a complete lack of humility. If we love first, then God will give us the wisdom to speak, or to be silent Find the truth and love is completely connected to it. Speak to others about things that have little to do with the truth and you are not speaking in love. Seems to me the real question is not about admonishing others in love but posessing the truth so that what we say to others comes from the love of Christ in us.
Posted by tonia on September 26, 2006 at 3:49 pm
Julianna,
Maybe I’m just not understanding what you are saying? I do think it is possible to speak the truth in an unloving way. If all that was required of us was to open our mouths and speak…then why would Paul admonish us to speak truth in love?
Of course the truth may offend someone, but it seems to me if we love someone we will do our best to find a way to speak the truth in a way that the person will be able to receive it.
But as I said…I have the feeling I’m misunderstanding what you are trying to say? ~warm smile~
Posted by molleth on September 26, 2006 at 5:36 pm
Okay, my spam eater ate THREE comments from Christie (crickl’s nest) today (wow, you really ticked it off, huh? lol) and one from Paul… I just “freed” them and so they’re now inserted wherever they are in the order…
SORRY, you guys. Sometimes it just gets really ornery for no good reason! All, please don’t miss comments #20 and #23 (which were previously invisible since my spam thing was attempting to lunch on them)…
Posted by molleth on September 26, 2006 at 5:56 pm
Hey, jesuscreed is talking about Mary (slightly off-topic, but on a topic near and dear to my heart and my own personal research at this time–lol)…
http://www.jesuscreed.org/?p=1430
Posted by molleth on September 26, 2006 at 6:09 pm
I guess my biggest thought is this…(and this involves painful honesty):
In times past, I loved debate just for the sheer sake of it. Especially theological debate. LOVED IT. Really really loved it. There is nothing more fun than tearing a person apart and using the Bible to do it. Regular debate is just debate, but religous debate is different, because it has the God word in it…your argument is not just *your* argument, but it is GOD’S. Nothing gets blood flying like that.
I am hoping that paragraph in and of itself makes my point clear. All I’m trying to say is that there is a careful line inside all of our hearts, especially those who are more inclined to the wordy/argumentative sports.
We must be VERY careful to seperate our love for debate, our love for discovering the “right” path, our love for engaging others in vigorous discussion, from what the Spirit of God is actually *leading* us to do.
Many people never have to worry about this. Their hurdle involves actually opening their mouth when the Spirit says to speak! Our hurdle is shutting it. Our hurdle is learning to LOVE them, to get to KNOW them, to pause so that we can HEAR their side…and to keep our mouths shut until we sense the Spirit releasing us.
…Kind of like a bird dog, shaking and quivering to go get the felled duck…that’s us…we must NOT mistake the quivering need to GET THAT DUCK with the voice of our Master. ONLY when he says, “Go,” are we to go. He carefully orchestrates situations, selectively maneuvers… and a bird dog flying onto the scene at the wrong time or in the wrong way can screw up a situation REAL fast.
That’s all I really want to try to say. I’m not controlled by nature. Not quiet. Not “tame.” I’m very quick on the draw, verbally, and I *love* argument just for the sake of argument. I love a good intellectual challenge about a subject of interest…I love a good debate, and I love it even more if it involves the Scriptures (or anything else I know well).
But like the bird-dog, I have had to learn (and still am) to not mistake the deep innate desire in me to go, to not mistake that for the leading of the Spirit. Just because that pull is in me (and just because it usually involves things that I think will be “right” things to do/say), does NOT mean it’s time to “go.” It’s only time to go when HE says so.
I hope that makes some (some?) shred of sense!
Your friendly bird-dog,
Molly
Posted by jettybetty on September 27, 2006 at 2:48 am
I struggle with the same debate issues–so you make many shreds of sense here–and you’ve put it all quite well. There’s a time to be quiet and let the Spirit work and a time to speak. I do not always keep those times straight–but I do believe I am learning.
On the Catholic issues you start this by mentioning–I have a couple Catholic friends, that, by their *visible* fruit, do have a vibrant relationship with Jesus. We’ve talked of their praying to Mary and some other things I do not get–and this is where I’ve come. If they do have the Holy Spirit–He can teach them about all that better than I can. I’ve tried to present what I see the scriptures saying in loving way (this was not one of my *debates*). If they continue to hold to that–and they are right now–would that be rather like the early church and some of the things the Jews brought to their Christianity? I don’t think these ladies believe this is actually saving them–they understand it’s the grace of God–but this is just their heritage.
They may even be praying that the Spirit will explain to me where I am wrong on a few things
!! (And I hope I HEAR it!)
Posted by wordsworth on September 27, 2006 at 4:48 am
Jettybetty, you touched on an important dynamic. Somehow, in all our eagerness to “speak the truth in love” we so easily forget that OUR WORDS won’t change the hearts and minds of anyone. The Holy Spirit does that. Somehow, there’s a balance and I’ll be the first to admit that I have no idea where to find that balance sometimes…but there IS one. And that is the balance between speaking the truth that we KNOW to be true and letting the Holy Spirit change and grow people in HIS time. He IS able to set us all straight on every detail of doctrine.
I struggle with wondering where we cross the line into arrogance. Yes, there are foundational truths that I’m not willing to file in the “debatable” category, but as we’ve seen in the last few weeks, what we each consider foundational can vary widely.
Do I really want to take the posture that I understand perfectly and without ANY error even the foundational truths? Yikes…it’s so easy for me to THINK that I have all the concepts of certain doctrines down cold, but what a terrible way to think about it! Still, I don’t want to teeter over into saying that I can’t really know the truth, because I think we CAN know Truth.
This year, my sons and I are studying deeply the tension between God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility as we see it in scripture. At one point, my college student son was home and he pointed out that he and his friends might have less of a struggle living with that tension. He speculated that as part of a post-modern generation, he has an easier time with that whole notion of living with two seemingly irreconcilable truths that scripture clearly teaches. (Oh dear, when I started writing this paragraph, I had a point, but now it seems to have disappeared…how embarrassing. I’ll return to make the point if I ever remember it!)
At any rate, I don’t have answers and I don’t want to go down the road of being so open-minded my brain falls out or so tolerant my beliefs are just mush….but I also want to be very, very careful that I study, speak, and even “know what I know” with the awareness that I still do see through the glass darkly.
Barbara
Posted by sara on September 27, 2006 at 5:49 am
I think we’re also talking here about having a personal relationship with and salvation through Jesus – and to what extent does faulty doctrine inhibit those things.
Keeping in mind that I cannot see into a person’s heart, I’d venture a guess that most of the Catholics I know (which is, btw, most of the people I know) do not have a personal relationhip with the Lord, are not believers, not saved, not born again. Of course, most people everywhere aren’t either. I HAVE known one or two Catholic people who seemed to be really in love with Jesus and who also lamented the state of their fellow Catholics. I have known many Catholics who, once they were born again, felt eventually led to leave the Catholic church. I think that was the Holy Spirit’s prompting, though and not a human’s. I hope this paragraph doesn’t get me in trouble.
I really like Junelle’s approach of pouring the love of Jesus all over people (not sure if that’s how she said it). Doctrinal issues can be addressed later if need be. After all, I was not (am not) perfect in my living or thinking when I came to Jesus – but He called me just as I am.
Posted by molleth on September 27, 2006 at 10:29 am
Sara, I don’t know. I think if I had a negative personal experience with the Catholic Church, maybe I would have a different perspective. From my own experience, the Catholics I have known have been radically in love with Jesus. So I am afraid to generalize and say that only the *rare* ones love Jesus…you know? I think there is the propensity for “blind religion” in all forms of Christianity, unfortunately…religion, in it’s dead sense, seems to be a disease that humans are amazingly susceptable to. I was once very anti-Catholic. Then I, through a converted Catholic friend (who was once Reformed), I began to study Roman Catholicism out WITH THEIR OWN WRITINGS as my source, as opposed to the anti-Catholic stuff I’d grown up on (as a fundamentalist). Wow. What a totally different picture.
I do disagree, in major ways, with some elements of the Roman Catholic faith. But as for asserting that only the rare ones are actually Christians? I’m just not willing to do that, personally. Jetty Betty really had some good stuff to share on that, and I’m pretty much on the same page as she is in regards to my own personal relationships right now.
Wordsworth, YEAH, tension is INCREDIBLE, and a big huge YES on postmodernism allowing for tension. It is one of my favorite aspects of it.
Posted by sara on September 27, 2006 at 4:44 pm
molly, yep, we are clearly talking about different people.
My experiences are clearly my own and are probably pretty subjective – they are true though.
Posted by sara on September 27, 2006 at 6:33 pm
I also want to stress that I know the people I’m talking about. All of my family is or has been Catholic. All of my husband’s family is or has been Catholic. Most of my friends are or have been Catholic. My stepfather is a former Brother.
Posted by Anne Jensen on October 2, 2006 at 5:58 pm
I have known so many women over the years who have been deeply hurt by men, often men in ministry, and this distorts their relationship with a male God the Father and God the Son. Then they somehow develop what they see as a “safe” relationship with Mary as Mother of God. Not a kiss her feet, she is the Savior relationship but a loving conversation, an intimacy with her that over time heals their anger with and rejection of a male Father and Son. And all of them have come to the Wedding Feast at Cana where Mary says “Do whatever He tells you.” In other words. Mary points them to her Son Jesus and says, you go to Him, you can trust Him and they have. Just a comment on what I have seen over the years.