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2 Oct

On Missional and Muck

Posted by molleth in Conservative Christian-ism, Reader's Ask, emerging/missional.

A reader sent me this email and I am posting it anonymously, per request.   

I don’t know what [they] consider missional …passing out tracks and evangelism classes…couldn’t be farther from my definition of “missional”.

In my version you invite the neighbor out for a beer at the pub and get to know him.  You help him build his deck and crack jokes about the local football team.  You listen to his left wing politics and agree that you don’t know the answers, but you want to be part of the solution.  When his wife gets sick you take them a meal and let them know you are praying for them – they already know you care, because you took him to the pub, you laughed with him, you helped build his deck.  You tell them how you struggle with worry too…but you know God is taking care of your family and He gives you peace.   You do this over and over for years, with love and prayer, hoping they will see God’s love in your laugh and your acceptance and your grace with them and hear His truth when you say His name…instead of hearing “right-wing idiot”.

I wanted to scream this morning about the “why does everyone emergent have to be negative?” ….arghh!!!!  I suppose all the reformerers were nice, sweet guys who just wanted to keep the unity above all else?  For crying out loud…christian does not equal nicey-nice, pat on the back, make everybody feel comfortable all the time.

Those of us who escaped the muck of the modern church are so shocked and angry over the line we’ve been sold…and we should be!!!  We SHOULD be angry that so much of the church is wasted on a mission that is not Jesus’. 

Wanna see an example of the muck I was raised with?  This is a video of my old youth pastor’s son (and the mirror image of the preaching I heard as a young person) – he’s the new “It” guy in his church circles…and this video sums it up perfectly.  I only listened to the first 5 mins…but it’s enough to make you want to run from contemporary evangelical circles RIGHT NOW. 

…I’ve never experienced such love and acceptance until I found the emergent movement.  The rest of the church may not like them…but scoot on over honey, I’m climbing on to THAT bench…and proud of it!

Thoughts?  I watched the video clip…and I have to say, I think I agree with the commenter.  It’s not so much the message that is the problem (that God made sex and that sex is good, because I agree with that one), it’s just that style of delivery, that arrogant, “we’re the best, they are all wrong,” presentation that is going to turn off the interested bystander instead of drawing them in.  Is this reaching out to our culture with the Gospel, or is this furthering a type of division that was never the intention of Christ?

61 Responses to this post.

  1. Posted by Light M. on October 2, 2006 at 2:05 pm

    There’s a Sunday school class sometimes taught at my church on “how people change,” and it comes complete with charts and buzzwords and little flow charts and a “system” for how Christians can help them … and I want to throw up or scream every time they teach it. It is so contrived, so artificial, so patronizing and so smug.

    Before I became a Christian, I could always tell when I was a Christian’s “project,” and I resented it. Missional is relational – in REAL relationships. To be genuinely missional, we must be genuine. We must be able to enjoy real relationships, real friendships with non-Christians, with honesty and vulnerability. We have to come humbly to those relationships not thinking we have all the answers, but that we are there to enter into the other person’s world and life, and, for pete’s sake, just ENJOY them, or pitch in and help in practical ways as one neighbor to another, instead of trying to preach to them or at them or save them.

    Rant over. :)

  2. Posted by revolution on October 2, 2006 at 2:41 pm

    he has angry preacher syndrome hehe…I dunno, it wasn’t horrible. church is for Christians in all honesty. Non Christians have no desire to go to church (for the most part) and church is for equipping the believers so THEY can be missional. So to be a missional church means that you are raising up missional people who will go and be incarnations of Christ in their “world”. So if you want to train surfers to go out and reach the surfer subculture with the love of Jesus then you probably will plant a surfer church in a surfer neighborhood and have all kinds of surfer stuff going on…but your church is still a CHURCH, and rightfully so. missional is not “seeker sensitive”

    I understand what the email is saying and can commisserate with the frustration. But I’m not too upset by that preaching…not my style, kind of loud and angry and it does have an adversarial tone…but all in all I’ve sat through much worse.

  3. Posted by ReneeM on October 2, 2006 at 2:43 pm

    I am not sure what to say… I agree. Sex is good! :) but BESIDES that… yeah. the guy SEEMED incredibly irritating and arrogant.

    I am a missionary kid. so I never went to a REAL church (kidding!) – as in a church building with a set of programs, a pastor, etc. We were GOOD friends with our missionary friends. ( there was one man at the mission center, and when he spoke at chapel, we used to make fun of his preachy voice… I guess no one was used to it!! So us kids just all thought it was funny!) We helped each other, hospitality wasn’t really even an option (restaraunts? 24 hour groceries??). We laughed, and prayed and cried with each other. And everyone’s purpose was the same.

    Learn the language. Learn the culture. Teach Jesus in the most understandable way possible. and try to get malaria or some other tropical disease as seldom as possible, so that you could stay on the field and finish the job! :)

    And that is what was missing when I discovered what church was in America. ( I went to 4 churches from 91 to 2004) it was hard to find REAL fellowship (to throw in a good churchy word) people were not real, genuine, and authentic often. People’s purpose was not the same. And the church service was lacking for me. I had to work REALLY hard to stay focused enough to pull out whatever God wanted for me. And when church was over. it was over. unless you had programs to do through out the week. or were part of a ministry team to… inner city, homeless, etc. (NONE of that bad!! its good actually!) BUT no one knew their neighbors! or the people they worked with. Or the parents of their children’s friends. No one actually had any *relationships* with anyone outside the church.

    SO, Souljourn… my home church… it feels like home… a purpose, real genuine and authentic fellowship, and prayer and laughter and tears. And I have time to build relationships with my new neighbors, and keep up relationship with my old neighbors, and the others God has put in my path… That is my… experience, I guess.

  4. Posted by Paul on October 2, 2006 at 3:16 pm

    One of the things that has been wrestled with here http://www.jasonclark.ws/2006/09/21/living-in-sinliving-in-love-the-bothand-reality-of-cultural-accommodating-christians/ is the whole question of what is missional when. I think it takes a whole lot of approches to reach a whole lot of people (just like it’ll take a whole lot of preachers from the over sexed and vocal about it to those struggling with sex and not getting any of it) – in fact I think God often wants us to something, anything rather than worry about is this the one right way? The Holy Spirit is not just in church, s/he is out there in the world, working, preparing – missional is not so much about the approach/technique but being available to follow Jesus where he is… to be with Jesus, be like Jesus in/through/because of Jesus. I like to see it as being co-missioned, its not just my mission or just Holy Spirit but together in partnership…

    Somethng I found very helpful is a thing called the Engles scale which you can read more about here: http://www.hazelden.org.uk/pt02/art_pt068_modified_engel_full.htm – bascially it reiterates that mission is a process and that different approaches will work better at different stages…

    I’m also reminded from the commentators email that yes mission is more than just doing stuff to people we also need to do stuff with people – it is an important reminder that mission embraces more than just method, that it’s not solely focussed on the soul…

    For me mission is communal, church is a space for meeting with God and each other as we go out into the week as well as for people to meet with God who come in…sunday is just part of what it means to be part of God’s mission.

    We can make church/mission so processy and so alien to what we do that it does become something that is not for us, something for the specialist, something that is private and exclusive – I have sympathy with the emailer as I’ve been in that experience but that experience is not true in every church everywhere at everytime…

    We need modern missional christians to reach modern minded people, post-modern missional christians to reach post-moderns, christians who are prepared to roll up their sleeves with their neighbours as well as those ones who go out and hand out tracks or who run alpha courses or whatever…

    Sorry building into a lil rant so i’ll stop :)

  5. Posted by Paul on October 2, 2006 at 3:16 pm

    oh Molls I think I need liberation from the fallen world of spam catching :) (again!!!!!!!!! ;) )

  6. Posted by tonia on October 2, 2006 at 3:19 pm

    I agree that the preacher isn’t horrible – and his message isn’t horrible either – but I have to say, this is pretty much a picture of the “churchianity” I don’t like.

    The preacher is like a caricature of a real person – and perhaps that is exactly the sort of person needed to reach a Hollywood-numbed generation, I don’t know. But I know I long for real, honest, warm people to walk this faith out with. Not guys who are shouting that they are “having more sex than you!”

    I want to know the guy who laughs over a drink with us and brings food when we are sick..and admits to struggles and shows sincere faith. (Well, I want to *BE* that guy.)

    When we were kids, our youth group used to drop us off at a local high school on Wednesday afternoons for “evangelism”. We’d take out “two-question tests” and stop any poor kid who got close enough.
    We’d ask them if they were going to heaven or hell…do our little spiel…invite them to youth group and go home – satisfied that we had fulfilled the requirement to “witness”.

    I think that’s so cheap and sad now…We couldn’t have cared less about those kids…other than hoping for a notch on our evangelism belts. Witnessing was a requirement of our faith – so we did it. I think “missional” is about so much more than fulfilling a requirement. It’s about waking every day with the intent of living in love with the people around us, and loving and serving them no matter what they think of our God – not as a project to finish…about serving them at the cost of ourselves, just because Christ loves them.

  7. Posted by molleth on October 2, 2006 at 3:36 pm

    I approved it, Paul. I wish my program had an “always approve” option. But, if you want to slink by it, like, say, if you have 3 links to put in, then just put 1 link at a time in a comment post..and then post again with your next link, etc. I know it’s a pain, but then at least you don’t have to wait for me to free you from spam oblivion… :lol: SORRY!!!!! It does a GREAT job of catching, like, 5-10 spams a day, so I appreciate the thing saving me the time of deleting all sorts of nasty spammers…but it sure is a pain when it eats good stuff.

  8. Posted by molleth on October 2, 2006 at 3:54 pm

    Man…some great comments here, yet not the time to process and reply to them. I’ll be back later (well, I hope!)… :)

  9. Posted by thereverendswife on October 2, 2006 at 4:09 pm

    Just to be fair, one should read my further comment regarding negativity in the Emergent church where I clarify the difference between righteous anger and those who wallow in criticism and never grow past it. :) There is also a difference between anger in an individual and perpetual anger in leadership.

    My dial up won’t allow me to watch the whole clip. From the little I saw I can say that the fellow is a little loud and flashy for me. :) But wow…from the background I came from, he would have never been allowed in, anyway…with the hair and clothes and speaking about sex! :) We were way more conservative than that! :)

    I do not think missional is only about giving money to missions or about handing out tracts. I, too, believe that being missional is about being relational, and so does my denomination. It is not about throwing the gospel out there and hoping it falls on someone while I retreat to suck my thumb and eat ice cream. It is about loving and building and wrestling thru muck and blood and sweat and tears and stink WITH those who need Jesus. It is about pouring your life into those who can never pay you back, and who will never try. It is about befriending and loving the unlovely, those that most of the known world would throw away. It is about spending the night with the desperate individual at the hospital or the psych ward. It is about giving up yourself, your rights, your time, your comfort. It is about dying to self. It is about living real, transparent lives with others, in the hope that they can see Jesus Christ and know Him and gain LIFE through Him.

    My family and I, our Church…we mess up time and time again – we are far from perfect. But we ask forgiveness, get back up, and try again…to get it right….day after day after day.

    (Only we might buy them a Coke instead of a beer. :) )

  10. Posted by molleth on October 2, 2006 at 4:23 pm

    From everything I know about your family, Holly, you really seem totally legit—lovers of Jesus.

    I guess what I don’t understand is your reaction that is sort of (to sum up my own interpretation) mixed. I hear you on the one hand saying, Why are you guys having problems with what is? Why are you guys saying that changes are needed? Why are you guys excited about getting back to Jesus?”

    …And then on the other hand, saying that one should have problems with some of the traditional approaches, that changes are needed, and that it is all about Jesus.

    So I guess I’m just really confused by your responses!!! Maybe it’s just that we have such different personalities…???

  11. Posted by thereverendswife on October 2, 2006 at 4:43 pm

    Really, Molly, you think I’m confusing? :) (Sorry! says she in a squeaky voice.) :)

    My reaction probably IS mixed. No way am I ready to jump on the BIG Emergent movement. Some of it is very, very scary to me. :)

    Let me try to be clear. Ahem. In order, then.

    1) I think there are problems with “what is.” (And I feel like Bill Clinton for having just phrased it like that.)
    2) I think that there are changes needed.
    3) I think it is ALL about Jesus. I think we are to love Him more than completely.
    4) I am not convinced that the Emergent Church is the way to take us all back to Jesus. It is probably a way to take some of “us” back to Jesus. I am very concerned with the liberal theology I see in some of the Emergent Church.
    5) I am and have been a member of a traditional style church that defines itself as Missional and parts of itself emerging (little e.) It is working, and working well, although there is definitely room to grow. I feel, I dunno…criticized by the Emergent (Big E) church movement which wants to throw out ALL of the traditional church and says that it is passe’, useless. I think there needs to be recognition that sometimes it is exactly what is needed (and Paul mentions that below.) I think that a good way to look at it all is that there is room for all types of churches. (And by that I don’t mean church in a building. I mean ANYWHERE the body of Christ is living like the body of Christ and being used of God to draw people to Him.)

    Does that help? Sometimes “I think” that I do such a great job of explaining myself…when in reality I am not being clear at all!

    Feel free to ask again…

  12. Posted by sara on October 2, 2006 at 5:06 pm

    ok, I watched less than one minute of this guy. Reminds me of Jimmy Swaggert, if anyone remembers him. I didn’t like Jimmy and I don’t like this guy. Is this the fall guy then? This is the supposed representative of the “regular” church?

  13. Posted by sara on October 2, 2006 at 5:09 pm

    hahahahahahaha. I just watched more of it. I can’t stop laughing. We used to say in high school that people who had to brag about it weren’t getting any. Am I allowed to say that here?

  14. Posted by Cassandra on October 2, 2006 at 5:42 pm

    Sara, my husband and I say that all time! (about people bragging…) He really didn’t annoy me. He didn’t. I’m sorry.. I don’t think the way to reach people is to ’sit at the pub’ with a guy like the person in the email wrote about. I think we as Christians need to be different.. and sitting at a pub drinking beer is not the way to be different. Christ said some pretty ‘controversial’ stuff to high-ranking people in his day. Things that almost got him stoned. I don’t picture him sitting at the local tavern, drinking beer, trying to convert people.
    Now, the guy’s hair and clothes were a little annoying… but, you have to remember- he was speaking to young people. I deal with young people every day, and they want it said straight to them. They don’t want talk about love, joy and peace- they want you to be straight up with them. And maybe that was the only way he could get across to them. Just my opinion.

  15. Posted by sara on October 2, 2006 at 5:47 pm

    sorry for taking up another post but I think I misspelled the crazy preacher’s name. I believe it is Swaggart, with an a-r-t, not Swaggert with an e-r-t.

  16. Posted by tonia on October 2, 2006 at 6:26 pm

    ****I don’t picture him sitting at the local tavern, drinking beer,****

    funnily enough…that’s just where I picture Him…hanging out with the sinners, laughing and drinking and eating. :)

    I think being “different” means we walk in kindness, gentleness, patience, self-control…the fruit and power of the Spirit. I don’t really think “different” means not drinking beer at the pub.

  17. Posted by Corrie on October 2, 2006 at 6:53 pm

    Tonia, I agree… Jesus was a friend of sinners to the point that “they” (Pharisees?) said that he was a glutton and drunkard. I get a picture of my head of Jesus partying-it-up … um … okay, at least willing to eat where the sinners were! :) Of course, he didn’t mince words either, and was somehow able to express both his love *and* speak words of truth and conviction to sinners. He’s got me beat there!

    I guess one question for Cassandra is if we don’t go into pubs and bars — where the non-Christians are comfortable — where else would we meet them? It sounds like your church’s evangelism method is able to meet a certain type of person who is willing to be “witnessed to” (hooray!) but there are also lots of other people who would immediately shut out that type of witnessing. Maybe that is where the emerging types are focusing the “missional” idea, to reach those types of people?

    Sorry if that question was confusing. :)

    Anyway, this whole dialog has been very convicting to me. As I read about these idealistic — in a good way! — descriptions of “missional,” I am seeing more and more how broken I am with relationships, in being a good friend, in being “out there” with non-Christians (hard when you are self-employed at home!), in loving people as they are without motive or agenda. And I’m not so great at loving God either.

  18. Posted by Corriejo on October 2, 2006 at 7:04 pm

    I agree with Sara. :-) This guy does way too much bragging.

    I wouldn’t want my teenage girls sitting in on that message. Yes, I want them to know that sex is a wonderful gift but there is a right way and a wrong way to say it.

    This guy was a “turn-off”. (Pun intended!)

    Now, is this guy part of the Emergent church or missional movement?

    Also, I don’t really understand these two things. I have been trying to get up to speed about these various movements but I am confused by all the different terminologies.

    I do agree that we need to be relational in our approach to the lost. No one wants to have someone preach at them and turn and walk away. Relationships take time to build and through our serving others, that is where we can allow the light of Christ to shine.

    I am going to go by “Corriejo” on this blog since there is another “Corrie” right above me! I wouldn’t want the poor thing to be confused with me. :-0

  19. Posted by Keer on October 2, 2006 at 7:11 pm

    Tonia, me too. Just who *did* Jesus hang out with and where?

    In Luke 7 He allowed a sinful woman to come and intimately wash His feet with her tears, dry them with her hair, and anoint them with ultra expensive perfume. (If this were to happen today the gasps would go round the room just as they did then that HE was allowing HER, a WOMAN to touch Him in such a way!!!)

    In Luke 19 He went to Zacchaeus’s house for supper. Zacchaeus was not yet a follower of Jesus (though he was curious). He was a tax collector…NOT a good profession to be in when it came to living the “righteous life.” I can see a modern day tax collector being somewhat like a bookie LOL. (Please no one take that comparison too far…I’m simply saying that’s about how positively his profession was looked upon!)

    And so on and so forth. We seem to think Jesus hung out in the clean parts of town. No, He hung out with the lowliest of the lowly. He would be on the street corners of New York (in the BAD neighborhoods) hanging out with the prostitutes and drug dealers. He would be hanging out in the casinos. Would He be *sinning* alongside those people? No way. He would be showing them a better Way. But He’d also be there. ;-)

  20. Posted by Cassandra on October 2, 2006 at 7:21 pm

    “Jesus was a friend of sinners to the point that “they” (Pharisees?) said that he was a glutton and drunkard. I get a picture of my head of Jesus partying-it-up”

    I respectfully disagree. Considering all the verses in the Bible that talk negatively about wine, I hardly believe that Jesus drank alchoholic beverages… which is a whole different controversial subject. The Pharisees called Jesus a whole lot of things that he wasn’t.
    Example: There is one man in our church who parties. He drinks, smokes, has had sex with countless partners, yet he ‘witnesses’ to people and uses our church as a reference. My husband has met people that have partied with this man, and when they find out where my husband is from, (our church) they laughingly tell him about the friend that they party with. And then they say, “If that is what Christianity is, I don’t want any part of it. He’s no different then us!”
    I believe that the world, deep down, is yearning for change. They live miserable, depressing lives and desperately want something different. They work the whole week so they can go drink away the weekend, and forget about everything. If, in their drunk stupor, another man is sitting right next to them, drinking like them, talking like them, and telling them, “Hey- Jesus is great! Try him!” Do you think they are going to think that Jesus will really change anything?
    My husband, when he worked in a factory, witnessed all the time to people. He witnessed with his mouth, his character, and his testimony. I truly believe that if he would have gone to a bar with his unsaved friends, they would have been dissapointed in him. Whether we like it or not, the world has certain expectations of Christians. They knew Tom didn’t smoke. Or cuss. Or drink. And if he would have gone to a bar for the sake of reaching his co-workers, he would have blown his whole testimony. There are many other ways of reaching people- we don’t have to ‘be like them’ in order to win them. Tom is still trying to reach his friends even after a year of being gone. But, he doesn’t do it in the bar- he does it in their homes, on the phone, etc…. and I think they respect him for that.

  21. Posted by Keer on October 2, 2006 at 8:19 pm

    Jesus drank wine all right…and He turned water into it. ;-)

    No one here is saying that we must ACT like a drunken sailor, cussing up a storm, in order to witness to them. But we must be willing to hang out where those folks do…just like Jesus did.

  22. Posted by Lindsey on October 2, 2006 at 8:45 pm

    You all are bringing up some great points. This is one of those areas that I think is really difficult to pin down, being in the world, but not of the world. Balancing scriptures like 1 John 2:15 and Romans 12:2 with 1 Corinthians 9:19-23.

    I think there is a difference between going to bars with non-believers and drinking it up with them and getting drunk, and hanging out with them on their turf and just being their friend. We are not called to sin with them, but to be with them. I think alot of witnessing has to do with the relationship, as others have pointed out, and not just evangelism.

    What Light said in #1 about feeling like a Christian’s “project” really struck me. One of my good friends is a Muslim. We often have very deep, profoundly spiritual conversations, each asking the other about their faith and how it affects their life. Lately I’ve been bent on “sharing the gospel” with her, and less interested in how she views things, and I noticed that it kind of put a damper on our friendship. She became less inclined to talk about spiritual things. I sooo don’t want her to become a conversion project. I want Jesus to shine through me, to inhabit my speech, for her to see that what I believe gives me true peace, etc. I don’t want her to see me as someone only interested in getting her soul. Because I’m not. She’s my friend and I care about her, regardless of her faith. And honestly, I feel like I’m just a seed planter with her (not a harvester), because she’s a pretty devout Muslim (dresses very modestly and wears a hijab, etc). But I would never have the opportunity to talk about my spiritual life, and Jesus, if we didn’t have a relationship.

    But about drinking, Cassandra, how do you view the wedding at Cana, or the Last Supper? Those passages seem to indicate a positive use of alcohol. I’ve always thought that scripture speaks negatively about drunkenness, but not moderate consumption of alcohol.

  23. Posted by Lindsey on October 2, 2006 at 8:47 pm

    oops, something got messed up in the italics in my post. only “drunk,” “sin” and “be” were supposed to be italicized.

  24. Posted by tonia on October 2, 2006 at 9:02 pm

    ****They live miserable, depressing lives and desperately want something different. They work the whole week so they can go drink away the weekend, and forget about everything. If, in their drunk stupor, another man is sitting right next to them, drinking like them, talking like them, and telling them, “Hey- Jesus is great! Try him!” Do you think they are going to think that Jesus will really change anything?****

    Of course there are people like this – but there are also lots of ordinary, nice people who have a beer after work or wine with dinner who aren’t drinking their troubles away and walking around in a stupor.

    My husband and I have found that a willingness to share a drink at the neighbor’s barbecue or in my husband’s case, to join his colleagues after a golf game for a beer has brought a different level of camaradarie and friendship that is surprising. I’m not saying one *must* join in the drinking – only that in some circumstances it can be a way of putting people at ease, of letting them know you aren’t there to judge and show how “different” you are.

    It has not been my experience that people are watching me to see if I can maintain some sort of moral high ground (i.e. “don’t drink, don’t smoke, don’t cuss). Rather, I find that people feel relieved that although I am unapologetically Christian, I am also just a person, like them. People want to feel accepted for who they are, listened to, understood – the same things we all want. They respond to the kindness of God in our words, and the testimony of our faith: peace, hope, joy, strength. I don’t think drinking “blows my whole testimony”. Think about it – what is our testimony of? A God who never drinks, smokes and cusses? Whoopee!

    The testimony I don’t want to blow is the testimony of a God so radical in His grace He would pardon the very people who murdered His Son…and not only pardon them, but adopt them as His heirs, bring them into His family and give them every benefit of His Kingdom! A perfect God who was so full of gentleness that prostitutes, and thieves and liars wanted to be around Him.

  25. Posted by Paul on October 3, 2006 at 1:06 am

    The thing with being missional is that it is situational/relational- we don’t do it in a vacum but in a context and we don’t do it solo but in partnership with the Holy Spirit… which is a long way of saying you are all right – in your particular contexts/situations/relationships you are being missonal, you are following Christ.

    It doesn’t matter if you don’t drink and party if that is not the context you find yourself in, in fact it doesn’t even matter if you actually ever meet the person (i’ve had some awesome conversations by email for instance) – to me that is missing the point and trying to reduce it to a one size fits all approach – being missional is niche market where God takes me and uses how I am wired/made to be a blessing to others – for instance God does a lot of stuff through my sense of humour and I find laughter is just a real natural way for me for you it could be cake baking, beer drinking, partying, quilt making, just saying hello to your neighbour instead of running into the house and on and on and on ad infinitum…

    My Q to me is where is the Holy Spirit stirring, pointing, waving, working out there with and where am I, how am I, who am I to work with/in/through Jesus. I just feel that the harvest is to big and the workers too few for me to worry too much about scything techniques, picking styles, appropriate overalls etc :)

    I’m repeating myself but I think as christians we need to move past either/or approach on topics like this and just applaud each other on,spur each other on – trusting that Jesus is guiding each other as we are seeking/following him rather than critiquing our styl. I think you are doing great, we’re not talking about whether we should bother being missional but how we are being missional – I say lets keep going, let’s thank Jesus that there are people reaching out in so many ways to so many different people that from a God perspective it’s a beautiful ballet, a dance, a beat that we are all harmonising with and too, the holy spirit choreographing us all…

  26. Posted by wes_line on October 3, 2006 at 2:36 am

    Your blog rocks Molly! Love the post, the haircut, and if I get involved with these discussions I will not have time to work, sleep, and feed my kids…

  27. Posted by sara on October 3, 2006 at 4:09 am

    oh boy, we’ve opened up the alcohol contorversy. It’s off topic, I guess, but since we’re here…. I am torn here because I cannot do anything to make my brother or sister stumble(Romans 14, especially verses 13 and 21) but at the same time I believe (any greek scholars out there?) that the word for wine in warning against drinking to excess is the same word for wine where Jesus turned water into it(John 2:1-12) and where Paul told Timothy to take some wine for his stomach(I Tim.5:23). Can you say it’s alcoholic in one instance and not another? If I am wrong about the meaning of the words in Greek, will someone in the know please correct me?

    My DH works in a place that serves alcohol. I was there eating supper with my son the other night and had a perfect view of the bar from my table. What I noticed is that these are ordinary, working people with lives and stories and hurts and joys – and they too are the people for whom Jesus died. (You’d think as a former bartender, I’d have noticed this before.) Is it necessary to meet them in the bar to reach them with the Gospel? Probably not; they all leave some time. But is it sinful to meet them in the bar? Maybe for ME (not for YOU necessarily) it is because I would feel convicted that people (Christians, alcoholics, addicts etc) would find it a stumbling block.

  28. Posted by tonia on October 3, 2006 at 5:56 am

    Paul,

    I hear what you are saying and agree with you completely.

    The point you make is similar to the one I was intending. We reach out to people in the context God places us – without fear. No, you may never need to go to a bar (as Sara said) – the bar isn’t the point. The point is the relationship with people, allowing ourselves to be human with them – mercifully, marvelously saved humans – but still approachable people, nonetheless.

  29. Posted by thereverendswife on October 3, 2006 at 6:16 am

    I do not have any insightful exegesis on the original Greek, but I will say that in “those” times, a slightly fermented drink was considered beneficial as a digestive aid. It broke down the grains that were eaten and rendered them more usable by the body. Today, many people get the same effect by soaking their grains prior to cooking or they eat what is known as lacto-fermented foods at each meal. It would have been common to Jesus’ day. (see Nourishing Traditions by Sally Fallon for more info.) I’m guessing that an excess of this wine would have caused inebriation.

    I can see Jesus laughing, mourning, living among people. I can’t see a “partying” Jesus who joined in the chug a lug contests.

    I can’t/won’t do alcohol due watching the life of my brother completely ruined by addiction. For me, it is better to completely stay away from it all. If I were to serve it to him, or even drink it before him, it would be the hardest, hardest temptation for him. Our country is full of alcoholics and concomitant woes…fetal alcohol syndrome, spousal abuse, drunk driving (which only takes a small amount of alcohol) which kills many innocent people. I can not say it is sin for ALL to drink a glass of wine, for I don’t think that can be reconciled Biblically…but for me, at this time, in this world we find ourselves in…it would be sin.

    I love this conversation – but am going to graciously bow out. :) It is sort of like deep sea diving without a tank…I find that I can stay “under” and hold my breath for a time, but then need to emerge and clear the head and go on about daily life and other things. :) If I let it, it can consume me.

    Thank you to those who considered kindly my sincere question about the negativity that I observe within (some) of the Emergent Church. It was not meant as a slam – but as a true question. I’m grateful for a safe place to ask questions. :)

  30. Posted by Cassandra on October 3, 2006 at 6:20 am

    Seem like, once again, I am the odd man out. = ) I really didn’t mean to open up a controversial subject. I do not believe that Jesus drank fermented alchohol- I don’t believe the wine at Cana was fermented-but that is a whole long discussion on word meanings in Hebrew, Greek, etc…As for the verse about taking wine when you have an ailment…. lots of people use that as an excuse to drink, (believe me, I hear it *alot*) but I believe that would be about the equivalent of taking cough syrup. And for us, people in our community *do* hold us up to a certain moral standard. I think it has to do with the fact that Tom’s dad started the church 18 years ago, everyone knows our name, and everyone knows that Dad and hubby are pastors. Drunkness plays a *huge* part in the sin in our area, and we have always taken a stand against it. That’s why, for me, I can’t see *ever* taking a drink- because we have taken such a stand against the hurtful consequences of it.
    Paul does make a good point, however….. all of us as Christians are going to have different standards in our life. Some of you might not let your kids watch Disney movies, while we have nothing against it! But that’s a piddly little thing in the world of Christianity. I guess I just see drinking, even social drinking, as much bigger, because of all the drunks and horrible things that happen in this area as a result- the people here seem to *thrive* on beer.
    But anyways… getting used to having a completely different opinion from everyone else here! = )

  31. Posted by Cassandra on October 3, 2006 at 6:22 am

    Holly and I were writing at the same time… I agree with alot of what she said.

  32. Posted by Junelle on October 3, 2006 at 6:33 am

    After reading and being so convicted yesterday, I ran errands for a few hours. I have to tell you, I was asked in at least 10 different ways to act on what we were talking about! I had multiple people ask me for my time (help me with this…) or to spend time with people who I wouldn’t normally take a second thought for. I was totally annoyed at first (my natural self is a real heel!). I shouldn’t be suprised, right? It was definately on God’s mind. He wants us where he is, (Like Paul shared so awesomely) and letting Him do His amazing work through his unique creation (little me)… By the end of the night, it was sooooo noticablely a God thing. I was just laughing all the way home.

    By the way, it could have easily been in a bar (for all the crazy places and people he took me to) but we don’t have any for 100 miles. :)

    Happen to anyone else? God listens to our blogs you know…Junelle

  33. Posted by Marcia on October 3, 2006 at 6:59 am

    Angry guy says, “I have sex ALL THE TIME!”

    Eww. I think I just threw up in my mouth a little bit.

  34. Posted by Corrie on October 3, 2006 at 7:55 am

    Wow, so much to catch up on. Cassandra — I was *not* trying to say that Jesus WAS a drunk and a glutton, or that we *need* to be drunks and gluttons in order to be witnesses! I apologize if my words were not communicating well! I only meant that he was hanging out with sinners (i.e., eating and drinking with them) and THAT is something that the other people (who *accused* him of being a drunk/glutton) would never have done. (Hm, multiple parenthetical remarks in one sentence. Maybe I am trying too hard to be understood.) Anyhoo — thank you for sharing about your community and more about where you are “coming from.” I do feel like I understand your situation a little more. :)

    Paul – thank you for your kind words of encouragement — a good reminder that we ARE one in the spirit!

  35. Posted by Keer on October 3, 2006 at 8:05 am

    Yeah, what Paul said.

    ROFLOL.

    And Marcia. ROFLOL EVEN MORE!!!!!!!!!!!!! I’m still laughing, and I think one of my kids will be asking me what is so funny.

  36. Posted by molleth on October 3, 2006 at 9:10 am

    “…as christians we need to move past either/or approach on topics like this and just applaud each other on,spur each other on – trusting that Jesus is guiding each other as we are seeking/following him rather than critiquing our styl. I think you are doing great, we’re not talking about whether we should bother being missional but how we are being missional – I say lets keep going, let’s thank Jesus that there are people reaching out in so many ways to so many different people that from a God perspective it’s a beautiful ballet, a dance, a beat that we are all harmonising with and too, the holy spirit choreographing us all… ” –Paul

    Molly: YEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAS! (That was a ‘yes’ in a Southern Drawl–it comes out every once in a while when I get excited).

    :lol:

  37. Posted by wordsworth on October 3, 2006 at 11:35 am

    Missional is how we live, not the programs we do. The Gospel is not a sales pitch, it’s who we ARE. This world is so big and so broken, I think there’s room for Christ followers who would never dream of having a drink and for those who can, in good conscience, share a beer with pizza. There is room for all of us! Molly, I am loving loving loving these discussions! Thanks for giving me so much to think about, day after day.

    Blessings,

    Barbara

  38. Posted by molleth on October 3, 2006 at 11:52 am

    YES! I often don’t have the time to share my thoughts beyond just saying, “YES!” –lol–but I too appreciate the conversation, the thoughts, the things that make me search the Scriptures to find Him…

    You all are GREAT!!! :)

  39. Posted by Junelle on October 3, 2006 at 12:42 pm

    I am not sure what you all think about the responsibility and the gifts that come with missional work. The disciples had to use spiritual warfare and the miracles were amazing. My friend just asked about miracles. If I am a christian, shouldn’t she see the fruit of God’s miracles in my life. (Remember I live in the mission field). She is wanting to see the fruit before she believes. God is working. He is active. I wish I could give her what she wants, just to knock her socks off. Do you feel the burden and see miracles?

  40. Posted by Keer on October 3, 2006 at 12:47 pm

    note to self: Why can’t I be as succinct as Barbara?

  41. Posted by Junelle on October 3, 2006 at 1:09 pm

    I know that BEING missional is seeing and taking part in the miracles. I guess I am in the “valley of humiliation” part of missional right now. I feel the amazing force and love within and just wish I could take it out (literally with my hands) and hand it to others. I understand the relationship part…but the miracles of Jesus are huge and awesome!!! (Look at me! I am a walking, typing miracle! )

    I want to include for a vote that missional is all of the good that has been shared, but also extremely frusterating. J

  42. Posted by ReneeM on October 3, 2006 at 4:43 pm

    I am with you Junelle!

    And YES I believe we SHOULD ( I think :) ) be seeing miracles. Its a whole nuther topic in some ways… and yet part of it in other ways. Things my eyes are being opened to, the working of the Holy Spirit… gifts etc.

    The best part? I can now read the NT gospels and say, WOW that is for today!! ALL of it! It is not exciting instead of history!!

  43. Posted by gracefuljourney on October 3, 2006 at 4:50 pm

    Ok, I have to admit that compared to the thought-filled, eloquent, challenging comments here, I feel like a simpleton. I have had to read, re-read and RE-read the articles posted just to get a glimmer of meaning but I know that my heart resonates with the emerging/missional church … maybe even more than resonates.

    My family attends a large church which came from an Independent Baptist turned non-denomenational background but broke away to start a seeker-sensitive, WillowCreek Affiliated church (I know it’s a wild thought, isn’t it?) Lately though, the words that have been floating around sound very emergent/emerging/missional … I am EXCITED about that. Our pastor is inspired by Rob Bell and Brian Mclaren and his favorite book is Blue Like Jazz by Donald Miller. Unfortunately, my excitement is cautious as I just see us as grounded, immersed in the church program mentality, presenting a wedding a week, (see this post to understand what I mean by that: http://subversiveone.blogspot.com/2006/08/wedding-week.html )

    I am firmly planted in the deconstructing phase right now and I don’t know where that will leave me. Many times I want to quit church, not God, just church. But what about my children? I sometimes wonder if I need to give them a firm foundation so that they will have something to deconstruct when they are 42! LOL! I keep asking God why He would give me such a strong desire for something different, such a strong belief in something different, yet have me in ministry in the antithesis to my convictions.

    What does all this rambling have to do with this particular post? I am not sure … I guess I connected with email Molly received. I want to do life like that! I want to be the giver and receiver in that type of ministry. Why don’t I? Honestly? My time and resources are used up at church, the flock feeding itself while a weary world starves.

    I guess it will sound sacreligious but I DO NOT CARE whether or not Jesus drank fermented wine. What difference does that make to how I minister to my neighbor? How I meet the needs of my family? Is it too simple to think that I will probably minister to different people in different ways … which means I can’t rely on a list of rules about ministry but on the Holy Spirit. Maybe one will be reached by an after-work beer at TGIFridays (had to mention that one because that is where my daughter works … and she interviews next week for a bartending job … GASP!) Maybe another will be reached by an invitation to dinner at my house and sharing my testimony. Only the Holy Spirit will know and I have to rely on the Spirit.

    Ok, I have written enough. Don’t know how much sense it makes but God understands and He is not threatened by my questions, my doubts, my struggles. I trust Him wholeheartedly and know that He will carry me through this journey.

    Thanks to Molly and all for the grace-filled dialoge.

  44. Posted by ReneeM on October 3, 2006 at 5:09 pm

    gracefuljourney…

    Thank you! I was challenged my your testimony and heart. I love to read what God is doing in other’s hearts, because He tends to use that often to renew what’s been happening in mine… does that make sense?

    I agree. That you can’t narrow down HOW God might use you, and the situations ARE different! to use the alcohol example. For Holly and Cassandra, from all you have said, I would agree… drinking, C’s husband going to the bar with his friends from work, etc… it wouldn’t be wise. And the Holy Spirit obviously seems to have led them to that!

    For other’s, like Tonia’s husband going with the guys from work for a drink, or accepting a glass of wine from the neighbors, is perfect… and the Spirit has given the freedom for them to do that.

    Gee, pretty cool how creative and surprising the Spirit can be!

  45. Posted by molleth on October 3, 2006 at 5:21 pm

    WOW. Good stuff..

  46. Posted by Paul on October 4, 2006 at 12:04 am

    graceful journey in name and nature…thank you.

    BTW i love TGI cocktails, good luck for your daughter in her interview :)

  47. Posted by Holly on October 4, 2006 at 6:27 am

    Okay, I’m back for a minute, if anyone is still here.

    Another sincere, honest question. Help me understand.

    Let’s say my brother is your neighbor.

    You invite him to the pub for a beer, so you can get to know him and he can get to know the Jesus who lives in you.

    (And this is not fictional. This is a lifetime of loving and caring for an alcoholic. And alcoholics aren’t rare.)

    You don’t know that he’s had 3 broken marriages due to alcoholism. You don’t know that he’s been arrested for driving while intoxicated more times than anyone can remember. You don’t know that he’s lived in prison for 1/3 of his life due to his addictions. You don’t know that the apartment he’s rented next to you is the first home he’s had in years…he’s either slept on a park bench or on some “friend’s” couch. He finally has made it thru a partial rehab program and has a job and is just beginning to step out of the shakes and gut cramps of withdrawel.

    You invite him to a pub for a beer.

    He wants to get to know you…but he knows he shouldn’t go ANYWHERE near a bar.

    What then?

    Should we just trust that he is strong enough? Is that his responsibility? (Ultimately,I think yes…but he’s NOT anywhere near strong enough right now. And yes…this is still reality.)

    And these are not sarcastic questions. These are from my heart.

    Do we trust that the Holy Spirit will tell you NOT to ask him to the pub?

    What do you think is right in this situation?

  48. Posted by Holly on October 4, 2006 at 6:31 am

    one more…I have always referred to Pauls exhortion to defer to the weaker member…if a desire to have a beer will offend/cause a brother to stumble…then I am to subject that desire for his or her good.

  49. Posted by wordsworth on October 4, 2006 at 7:08 am

    I’ll take a crack at this Holly, even though I’m not the one who would be off to the pub–that would be my husband. I think that he would never just invite the neighbor to the pub to get to know him. If the neighbor invited HIM, he’d probably go. He wouldn’t initiate with that himself. We never consider serving wine with dinner at our house unless we know the guests well enough to be confident that we’re not offending or causing to stumble. And yes, we know some of all three categories–those who would just be offended, those who would stumble, and those who would say, “Yes, please, I’d love a glass if it’s red.”

    I can only speak for myself and my husband–we do NOT use alcohol as the leverage to open a door. We both grew up in families that served wine with dinner occasionally and drank very moderately. It is not a problem for us. We are very, VERY aware that there are a lot of people out there who have a problem with alcohol. If we are unsure about guests, we simply don’t serve it. Ever. (That always makes me wonder about people who struggle with gluttony–should I be consciously foregoing dessert and creamy sauces when those folks come to dinner?)

    I think that alcohol consumption is a bit more of a hot topic for evangelicals here in this country than it is in other places around the world. I’m not saying that the US is the only country with problems with alcoholism. I just think that the evangelical church in North America has latched onto drinking alcohol as a watershed issue. There are certainly environments in which I would never consider exercising the freedom I have in Christ in this area.

    Back to the example of your brother, Holly. If he were our neighbor, we would spend enough time getting to know him before it ever occurred to us to share wine with dinner. And like I said, my husband would never lead with an invitation to a pub if it was someone he didn’t know extremely well. I’m guessing that long before we’d make such a blunder, we’d have a pretty clear picture of your brother’s story and would act accordingly. I hope and pray that would be the case.

    We believe that a glass of wine with dinner is a good thing: one of God’s many blessings. We do not require that wine to enjoy His other blessings. We don’t enjoy dinner less if there’s no wine. We don’t have wine with every meal. It is NOT important enough to us to hurt a brother over.

    I will be honest with you, I am much more concerned about causing someone like your brother to stumble than I am about causing disapproval in someone who wants to make a “law” against a glass of wine. I think that there can be very good reasons not to drink, but I don’t see any actual prohibition in scripture. I thoroughly respect the convictions of others in this area, but won’t accept the yoke of that law on myself. Does that make sense? (and I don’t want to get into a wrangle over this, but I DO believe that the wine that Jesus made at the wedding in Cana WAS real wine. I’ve lived near wine country, made homemade grape juice and have seen for myself how eagerly that juice wants to ferment. I know that the Jews didn’t own GE refrigerators back in Jesus’ time, so even if it started out as juice, it wouldn’t have STAYED juice.)

    And lastly…YES, I believe that the Holy Spirit IS capable of giving us the discernment to know when we shouldn’t be offering that beer or that glass of wine. Of course He is able to do that. The question is more, are we capable of listening closely enough? That’s the challenge we all face!

  50. Posted by Tiffany on October 4, 2006 at 8:01 am

    I’ll chime in on your question holly- as I think it is a really good one! Although I think wordsworth summed most of it up quite well!

    First, I’m not sure that it has been suggested that you lead with an inviation to the pub. But rather, if you know that they enjoy a good beer and a game of darts on Friday night and they offer you an invite you gladly accept. That for many people going to a bar isn’t a stumbling issue and isn’t a sin. Like you point out, just inviting someone you don’t know well to a place like a bar could be a bad idea if you don’t know them. I think though (And someone correct me if I’m wrong) a lot of the missional/emerging thinking isn’t simply invite people to where it is culturally relevant but to go where they are and find culturally relevant. For someone like you brother, maybe that would be an open AA meeting or an AV meeting.

    And like wordworth said, serving alcohol in your home is a wonderful thing as long as you know who you are serving it to. since alcohol is a stumbling block for so many people, a polite question before they come over or just holding off offering until it comes up in the normal course of conversation seems wisest. Before we invite people over (unless it is a spur of the moment-hey join us for dinner sort of thing) I tend to ask about food allergies and such. It is pretty easy to ask if they enjoy a glass of wine with dinner or not as well. We have a friend who although enjoys wine is acutally allergic to alcohol and so I don’t serve it when she is here because I know it is something she enjoys and it wouldn’t be fun for her to see us having some when she can’t. Much less of an issue than your brother’s situation by far, but I think all falls under the umbrella of counting others better than ourselves and considering their needs before our own.

    I think your position on alcohol is a very common one Holly and a very valid one. Many many many families have been harmed extensively by the effects of alcoholism and addiction and consequently I think many people just decide to stay away from it altogether- not because it is wrong in and of itself but because of the personal damage they have witnessed it just doesn’t hold any appeal at all.

    But (and I’m not suggesting that you are suggesting this, for the record) we shouldn’t make a law for everyone concerning alcohol because of its potential harm. Sex harms many many many people, and yet we know as Christians it is something that was created for ejoyment and goodness in marriage. Its perversion does not make it wrong all together. Food harms many many many people. And yet we also know that it was created for our enjoyment and we shouldn’t stop eating just because of its perversion. I just think we all need to approach this from a doing all things in faith and to the glory of God. So, we don’t get drunk and guard those who stumble in this area. So we don’t sleep around and show others the goodness of a faithful mariage and the joy of intamacy in that setting. So we keep food in its proper place, as something to be enjoyed in fellowship and not something to set up as an idol to be served.

    Does that make any sense at all?

  51. Posted by tonia on October 4, 2006 at 8:06 am

    Holly,

    I agree with what wordsworth said…almost verbatim. :) For the record, my grandfather was an alcoholic and one of my sons is fetal alcohol effected – so I’m very aware of the consequences of alcohol. My grandmother feels that drinking is probably the worst sin possible because of how it devastated her family. I understand that view point.

    However, as we have prayed and looked to the Lord for wisdom in this area (and we were both teetotalers in our younger days) particularly with our son, we have come to the conclusion that teetotaling is not the best approach for us. A better approach for us is the modeling of responsible behaviour and frank discussions about the effects of alcohol.

    We did have a neighbor who had an alcohol problem. My husband did not go to a bar with him. They developed a friendship over working in the yard. But the men my husband works with are just having a beer after work. (If he discovered one of them had a problem he wouldn’t drink with them – it’s that simple.)

    I also respect other people’s convictions in this area. I don’t serve wine at dinner when my grandmother is with us. She would be grieved and offended. She would never feel free to share a glass with someone to talk about Christ. But I DO. I have watched over and over how accepting a glass of wine breaks down an us vs. them barrier. The first example I saw of this was within my husband’s family. My inlaws (who are not Christians) were VERY offended that my husband and I did not drink in the beginning of our marriage. (So much so that there was a large fight at our engagement dinner because we didn’t sip the champagne they offered us.) When I finally accepted a glass of wine at a bbq many years later, they opened up in friendliness and acceptance in ways I couldn’t imagine.

    I really believe we must listen to the Holy Spirit’s direction in this matter and not put constraints on each other that the Lord doesn’t. It would be just as wrong for me to demand that you drink as it is if you demand I don’t.

  52. Posted by tonia on October 4, 2006 at 8:08 am

    Tiffany posted at the same time – great thoughts!!

    I particularly agree with this:

    I think though (And someone correct me if I’m wrong) a lot of the missional/emerging thinking isn’t simply invite people to where it is culturally relevant but to go where they are and find culturally relevant. For someone like you brother, maybe that would be an open AA meeting or an AV meeting.

  53. Posted by molleth on October 4, 2006 at 8:25 am

    ***I will be honest with you, I am much more concerned about causing someone like your brother to stumble than I am about causing disapproval in someone who wants to make a “law” against a glass of wine.***

    Me too…

    You know, I initially thought the alchohol thing really sidetracked the real issues, but, then again, maybe it hasn’t—-maybe this is the heart of the real issue: Are we willing to get into their world, or are we going to stand on the outside waving at them to leave?

    In the case of sinful behaviour, we know the answer: our King does not allow us to partake. So no drunkneness, no sexual sin, etc…

    But in the case of non-sinful behaviour, we have complete liberty—and are asked to walk in Love, and to remember the weaker brother, etc.

    So the question is: is going to the local pub with a neighbor once (or every once in a while) a sin? You share a beer with him at the pub instead of at your house, in other words. Is this a sin?

    In some of our church worlds, it IS a sin. But we’re not talking about the church world—we’re talking about this guy’s world. Is taking him out for a beer a sin? Or, for that matter, sharing beers at your own table?

    I totally agree with wordsworth on the American fascination with alchohol. It is fairly unique to us… It is something worth questioning, you know, when we don’t see drinking alchohol prohibited in Scripture at all (but we do see drunkeness prohibited).

    It’s a good thing to be careful not to hurt people…if someone is an alchoholic, at that point we know to walk carefully in that regard. (It’s not too hard to tell: they will usually have quite a bit to drink, or, if they are in recovery mode, they’ll just openly tell you).

    But if the fact that they MIGHT be one means we should never drink…? We shouldn’t have church potlucks, either, then—a diabetic brother or sister has to endure looking at all those delicious desserts and it causes him/her to stumble and hurt themselves, etc.
    That happens everytime our gathering has a potluck, in fact…

    I guess sharing a beer with a neighbor just seems like one of those things that our american-christian-culture has made into a big deal…when…it’s generally not.

    Scripturally, what do we do with Jesus going over to feasts at the tax-collecter’s house where all the sinners went? The Pharisees were furious about this, so we know those people must have earned the “sinner” titles, but…Jesus is in their HOUSE, FEASTING with them (which would include drinking wine)!??? I mean, they actually liked Him and liked spending time with Him, and vice versa???

    So back to the, “Is it a sin to drink a beer with my neighbor?” This is getting too complicated. Maybe we can just play it safe and stay away from our neighbor altogether. I didn’t want my children around him anyway…

    :lol: (Actually, maybe I shouldn’t laugh. since part of our Christian-subculture has done exactly that)…

    I think the letter writer was just appealing to Christians being REAL…to us actually CARING about our neighbor, for reasons that go beyond wanting to get them to believe the same way we do, but just because the love of God has been shed abroad in our hearts…so of course that will include wanting them to come to know Jesus, but knowing, too, that how they come to know Him will be through our honest and genuine love for them…we’re there to help them build their deck, we shared a beer and let them talk politics [while *listening* to them, not trying to fight them but honestly trying to hear their heart behind their opinions], we pray for them during their sorrows and are there offering to help in any way we can, etc…

    WE ARE THERE, and they know we actually care about them. The “something different about you” isn’t that they’ve never seen us drinking a beer, but the “something different about you” is WAY the heck bigger than that. We actually Love. That is what Christians should be known for, not for never buying a bottle of wine.

  54. Posted by molleth on October 4, 2006 at 8:26 am

    Hey, like, 50 people just posted while I was writing that!

  55. Posted by Holly on October 4, 2006 at 10:00 am

    Thanks for all who replied…I do appreciate your thoughtful and measured responses. I appreciated hearing how you would handle things. I was not asking for hard and fast rules…just how to deal with it, and you answered that.

    Yes, I believe that watching alcohol destroy parts of my family has instilled a deep dislike for all things alcohol related within me. That does not mean that I would call it a sin for those of you who have made other choices. I could not support that, Biblically. That also does not mean that if someone offered me a drink, I would disdainfully refuse it and call them “sinners destined for the pit of hell!” :) Rather, I would gently thank them, but decline, but be sure to accept and reciprocate their gesture of openness in another way. I think there is always a way to show interest and build relationships…either way.

    As an aside, yes, I do make it a point to “help” those we reach out to in their areas of temptation. If someone has confided in me their weightloss struggles, I cook healthily for them. If they are diabetic, or have allergies, I plan the meal around them. (We have several people who always bring specialty dishes such as gluten free/diabetic/nut free/egg free dishes to the ‘potlucks.’ But I digress into recipes. :) It’s all about sensitivity…considering one another in love, I think.

    Thanks, everyone. :)

    (And may I say what a challenge it is to type with a baby on your lap. I’ve had to retype this three times.)

  56. Posted by molleth on October 4, 2006 at 10:32 am

    I can relate to the baby challenge.. LOL…
    Love ya, Holly. :)

  57. Posted by Anne@Anne'sCafe on October 4, 2006 at 11:20 am

    Great discussion! I’m like you Holly, alcohol holds no appeal to me and it would be weird to go to a bar with someone since I’ve never really been a frequenter of bars (coffee shops rule!).

    I have been convicted of my attitude towards hanging out with and going to functions through my husband’s work. Since he’s an officer, there’s this whole culture with the spouses club, the o-club, ceremonies and functions etc. Alcohol is a given.

    At one Christmas party we did actually attend DH’s commander (a Lt. Col.) was already drunk and blatantly looked me (and some of the other wives) up and down as we were introduced.

    Gossip, backstabbing, drunkeness, … it all happens at these things. And we’ve been the target of all of that. So I’ve not bothered to take the trouble of getting a babysitter and going to ANY of these functions the last couple of years.

    I’m realizing that I’ve had some dismissive and bitter attitudes towards all this and it’s hard to separate not liking the behaviors with not really liking the people. Much less “loving” them.

    Any one have any advice?

    P.S. Just wondering… what’s the difference between a “pub” and a “bar?” Do we even have “pubs” in America?

  58. Posted by Jerry on October 4, 2006 at 2:19 pm

    great post and discussion

  59. Posted by Paul on October 4, 2006 at 10:40 pm

    Grin, after the ease with which emerging/emergent has been definded and the whole subject of missional tackled I’m sure pub/bar will be a breeze… :)

    By online Oxford Dictionary tells me…

    pub
    Brit.

    • noun 1 an establishment for the sale and consumption of beer and other drinks. 2 Austral. a hotel.

    — ORIGIN abbreviation of PUBLIC HOUSE.

    bar1

    • noun 1 a long rigid piece of wood, metal, etc. 2 a counter, room, or place where alcoholic drinks or refreshments are served. 3 a small shop or counter serving refreshments or providing a service: a snack bar. 4 a barrier or obstacle. 5 any of the short units into which a piece of music is divided, shown on a score by vertical lines. 6 (the bar) a partition in a court room, now usually imaginary, at which an accused person stands. 7 (the Bar) the profession of barrister. 8 (the Bar) barristers or (N. Amer.) lawyers collectively. 9 Brit. a metal strip added to a medal as an additional distinction.

    • verb (barred, barring) 1 fasten with a bar or bars. 2 prohibit from doing something or going somewhere.

    • preposition chiefly Brit. except for.

    — PHRASES be called (or go) to the Bar Brit. be admitted as a barrister. behind bars in prison.

    — DERIVATIVES barred adjective.

    — ORIGIN Old French barre

    Well that clears that up then :)

  60. Posted by molleth on October 4, 2006 at 10:54 pm

    :lol:

  61. Posted by Anne on October 5, 2006 at 11:01 am

    Thanks for the official definitions, Paul. :) Molly, I think you should think about making those definitions into a blog entry! ;)

    Is it only me, but does going to the “pub” sound more respectable than going to the “bar?” Pub brings to my mind a picture of C.S. Lewis and other scholarly sorts smoking pipes, sipping mugs of beer and debating theology. Whereas a bar brings to mind drunk people looking to hook up.

    What was the original topic again…? :) :)

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