Women Who Drive and the Men Who Let Them

If the practical Christian life is primarily concerned with obedience to delegated authorities, power structures, and “roles,” then it really makes perfect sense to train one’s children up to think the same way.  If obedience to the rules is of the highest good, and those rules are a complication of various outward structures (”thou shalt’s,” and “thou shalt not’s”), then starting from day one, our children should be taught the rules and made to obey them.  Obedience to authority would become more than a good thing–it would become the main thing.  (Can you tell I’m gearing up to talk about a few things related to parenting)?

If we all0w our children to think independantly, then we are teaching them to do what we ourselves are not allowed to do, right?  So independant thought would only be acceptable within the proper boundaries, and even then, questionable. 

For example, if a wife is required to submit to her husband’s will in all things (excluding murder, etc), then why would we teach our daughters to think for themselves?  They should only be allowed to think within the bounds of their own father’s will.  And even then, we need to be careful, because their father’s will may be more liberal then their future husband’s, at which point we are raising daughter’s who may not be content with their future husband.  No wonder the hard-core patriarchalists are generally against daughters going to college!  

This is one of the reasons why leader, Jonathan Lindvall, decided that his daughter’s would not get a driver’s license until they were married, that way allowing their future husband’s the ability to choose whether or not he wanted his wife to drive.  Lindvall, of Bold Christian Living, was once much more popular in homeschool circles and frequent speaker at homeschooling conferences, but as his beliefs began to move to the more extreme, has seen his mass popularity decline.  Still a leader in the more extreme camps, though, Lindvall tells his readers,

“ Several generations ago, a father’s responsibility (and right) to
protect his wife and daughters was generally assumed and acknowledged in
our legal system. It would have been unthinkable for a woman to be
compelled to participate in legal proceedings, without her father’s (or
in the case of a married woman, husband’s) involvement. I understand in
many situations women could not even be directly arrested, until
permission of their father or husband was acquired. True, a husband or
father then became liable for his wife’s/daughter’s actions. But the
principle of Numbers 30 (male protection over women) was honored.

Today, because of our radical embrace of individualism (which leads to
feminism), our culture has undercut our ability to protect family
members. In my estimation, Christian families who see this, need to
rethink our participation in many of society’s typical structures in
order to maintain (and reclaim) scriptural family corporate identity.” 

(Full article here). 

But, if I may interject, the truth is that women were not being “protected,” but were considered inferior—of inferior brain power to be able to handle such proceedings like sitting on a jury and being called upon to make rational decisions.

So many in the ultra-conservative camp, like Lindvall, wish we could go back to those good ol’ days, but the more history books I read, the more I think we have rose-colored glasses on if we look back longingly.  The Victorian era was brutal.  Stop looking at the pretty pictures and try reading about what it was like to live in it. 

Upon marriage, Victorian brides relinquished all rights to property and personal wealth to their husbands. Women were, under the law, “legally incompetent and irresponsible.” A married woman was entitled to no legal recourse in any matter, unless it was sponsored and endorsed by her husband.

Helpless in the eyes of civil authority, the married woman was in the same category with “criminals, lunatics, and minors” (Vicinus 7).

Eighteenth-century, English jurist, William Blackstone curtly described her legal status, “in law a husband and wife are one person, and the husband is that person.” (Jones 402).

The Victorian woman was her husband’s chattel. She was completely dependent upon him and subject to him. She had no right to sue for divorce or to the custody of her children should the couple separate. She could not make a will or keep her earnings. Her area of expertise, her sphere, was in the home as mother, homemaker and devoted domestic. Clear and distinct gender boundaries were drawn…

Full article here

Many of the stronger patriarchy supporters wish we could go back to these days, to the days when (they say) men and women knew their roles and society supported them as such.  I’m personally all for society viewing the homefront as a valuable contribution to the world, and for not denigrating women (or men) who choose to serve there by staying home to raise the children, etc.  But do we have to become chattel again in order to make that happen?  Do we have to strip women of the vote (I mean, “protect” them from it) in order to have the home respected? 

We’ve talked before about the assumption that women were made to be ruled, because I believe it is the basic underlying premise for all hard-core patriarchalists (Christian and non) and, though certainly to a much lesser degree, many softer complimentarians like CBMW and such like (see here and here for past posts…and here for way more than you ever wanted). 

Lindvall (obviously not of the softer variety, but with what I believe to be God-honoring intentions) believes the Scriptures teach us that women were designed to be ruled by men, and teaches his followers,

I believe Numbers 30 indicates that daughters are to be more protected
than sons. When Bethany approached the age when many young people
acquire permits to learn to drive, I began hinting that she would soon
be driving. She wasn’t particularly excited, but was prepared to follow
my leadership. My wife appealed to me, however. She questioned whether
it is truly healthy for young ladies to drive. She noted that when she
“got wheels” she began displaying much more of an independent spirit
from her parents. She questioned whether this was healthy.

While I was initially skeptical, I began pondering and praying about
this issue. I recalled an aunt who never has driven in her life.
Although she is quite capable, no doubt, she and my uncle apparently
believe it is his place to drive and hers to ride. This is the
traditional pattern from before cars were even invented. Even today, in
most families the husband does the majority of the driving when the
family travels together.

At about this time, the Lord was clarifying my own thinking regarding
young people’s independence and our assumptions regarding individualism.
Ultimately I evaluated this decision in light of a more scriptural
paradigm, and concluded that we would at least delay Bethany’s getting a
driver’s license. We anticipate leaving this decision to her husband,
whoever (and whenever) the Lord has her for.

This flies in the face of most contemporary notions. When Bethany flies
with me, she doesn’t have a “government issued” picture ID. We must
bring her birth certificate for her to be allowed on the plane.

It would certainly be more convenient to have another driver (and we are
delighted to have our 16-year-old son helping with the driving, now) but
I am committed to protecting my children, but especially my daughter,
from unnecessary vulnerabilities the world’s ways impose.

I’m thankful my daughter will not likely be called for any jury duty.
It’s possible Bethany could still be visible and identified in some
government computer (she has a birth certificate) but I am doing my best
to help her “fall between the cracks” of the world’s systems for as long
as we can keep it that way.  (full article here)

If you are looking for a happy ending, you’re at the wrong blog today.  The last time I read Lindvall, Bethany was in her young twenties and still not driving.  But before you get angry, please note that under the, “women were made to be ruled,” way of looking at gender,  it doesn’t really matter if you agree or disagree with the above.  Women were made to be ruled, and men to rule, therefore if the ruler declares that men decide if women drive, and your job as his woman is to submit (and your job as an onlooker is to support his rule).  What right do you have to argue?  What sin is being comitted here?  I see nothing in Colossians about driving lessons being required, do you? 

If a husband decides that he doesn’t feel his wife should drive, then she needs to cheerfully obey and cut up her driver’s license.  (Most books along these lines say that a wife has the right to make a kind and gentle appeal, carefully and at the appropriate time, but only once, upon which she needs to shut her lips and joyfully submit).   

I guess I am trying to say that there is no choice for a woman in a situation like this.  What choice does she have, under the “male-rule” paradigm?  As her sister, I may not agree with her husband, but she is mandated under God to submit to his will (as long as he is not asking her to sin, such as murder, etc).  

She is hardly different from a child, with the patriarchy sites reminding men that wives need ruled firmly.  Everything’s there but disciplining her, and, the really really weird part (wanting to say this carefully so I don’t get a bunch of weirdo’s coming to my blog via google)—all these hard-core patriarchal teachings are  surprisingly similar to the sexually perverse groups where the male rules and the wife is submissive, only they spank them.  In the “godly homes,” men don’t spank (but if they wanted to, I would add, the wife would need to submit under the more hard-core patriarchy, because there she has no recourse against physical abuse) but it’s still all revolving around power.  These counselors admit the wife has some recourse…I guess (note the emphasis on rank):

In contrast, a woman author who is naturally assertive, verbal, and “take charge” in her flesh, will be tempted to paint a picture of the wife’s role that falls short of the hard sayings commanded in Scripture. She might fail to emphasize the often repeated, central biblical characteristic for a godly wife to have a genuinely “submissive, “gentle and quiet spirit”.  Similarly, she might tend to view Bible passages, that actually refer to confrontation between believers of equal rank, as applicable to conflict between believers of unequal rank. Such an error fails to take into account the various passages that clearly modify when, if, and how a person under authority should respond to a sinful person over her or him. 

W hen it comes to a Christian wife with a Christian husband, we are convinced by the biblical evidence that such a wife is never to personally rebuke her sinful husband.  For a wife to do so is to step out of rank, and try to replace the Holy Spirit, the other men in her husband’s church, and the church elders as his source of accountability  Instead, she is to appeal, first directly to her husband, then if he continues in serious sin she can appeal to the men above him (pastoral elders and/or government officials, Titus1-3).    Please note that many minor issues should be overlooked (”love covers”), and do not even warrant an appeal.  [here for full article]

And then there’s me, fuzzy-headed (growing out my hair-urgh) and perplexed over here at my desk in Alaska, wondering why we’ve made the “Biblical Christian Family” into something strikingly similar to the patriarchal homes of the Greek/Roman/Jewish world.  Yeah, well, we might use a dishwasher and they didn’t, but in our relationships we are assuming that they are primarily based on heirarchy—that power structures form the blueprint, form the definitions of personhood.  Which is exactly how the marriage relationship was looked at during the time period of the Bible.  I mean, anyone ever wonder why the men were always way older than their wives? 

And does anyone think that Paul was maybe dealing with what marriage was like then, and giving the Church a clue about how it could look like in Christ?  Anyone think maybe Paul wasn’t trying to advocate for patriarchy or for the Roman view of a strictly heirarchal world, but simply dealing with the way life was then?  Not setting down rules for all time, but giving the people an (unheard of!) picture of relationships that could be based on love and honor and the respect of all people, regardless of gender?  Giving people a different way to look at the power structure that characterized relationships then? 

I don’t know.  I have more questions than I have answers, obviously.  When I get like that, which is more often than not, I shut my eyes and take that Hand that is always outstretched, and I remember that He is leading me, He is patiently walking with me, whether through wide open places or terrifying chasms.  He turns everything upside down.  He did.  He does.  And I have to admit, I was made to be ruled.  Not by a human lord, perhaps, but certainly by This One.       

34 Responses to this post.

  1. A new study shows that male drivers have “a 77 percent higher risk of dying in a car accident than women, based on miles driven.”

    So maybe it shoud be our boys that wait for the drivers license? Hmmm. Food for thought?

    http://www.newsreview.info/article/20070119/NEWS/70119010

    (By the way, I posted a comment under your previous post and it hasn’t shown up. Possibly in your spam folder? WordPress doesn’t seem to like me right now. I’ll see if this shows up.

  2. Wow, Molly. Some of the excerpts attributed to Jonathan Lindvall really spooked me. I’m not familiar with homeschooling culture at all, so I can’t make any judgments. But I do have a question: Are Lindvall’s remarks indicative of most homeschoolers’ values/beliefs or is he an anomaly within the homeschool movement?

  3. Molly, I appreciate your comments here. A couple years ago, I bumped into all kinds of conservatives, patriarchal, homeschooling blogs that left comments or linked through yours. Since I have lived under a rock most of my life I guess–I have spent most of the last 2 years going huh??? I never got where many of them got what they posted to be scripture. Scriptures never had and do not say the same things to me. Now, in the last month or so as I’ve gone through and read most of the links you have provided it all makes sense–I don’t agree with it–but I have found peace just knowing where it came from.

    Tom–Molly will do a better job of answering this than me–but there is a group (sometimes very vocal) that support Lindvall and his co-horts–but I know many homeschoolers that are sweet, precious and I doubt have ever heard of him.

    BTW, our daughters got their driver’s license the day after they turned 16 and both went to college. They are both happily single at 25–doing what God has for them do whether or not they get married. Some of the stuff Molls talks about here just makes me so sad–it’s NOT Bible. (of course, that’s my opinion)

  4. Hi, Tom—
    NO. It’s more indicative of the extreme-patriarchy type of camp. Homeschoolers obviously have some members in that camp, but by and large they are a VERY diverse bunch. As I said in the post, Lindvall *used* to be a frequent speaker, but many are distancing themselves from him now. Honestly, he seems like a good-hearted guy who really means well. He’s just being consistant with his belief-system, which I admit appreciating. If a person believes something, I always respect them for actually living it, you know?
    .
    JB, Yeah, it is nice to put the pieces together. And you are right—LOTS and LOTS of homeschoolers have never heard of this guy (or many like him).
    .
    Spunky,
    :) Funny! (I rescued your comment, and please just shoot me a quick email anytime WP “eats” your thoughts).

  5. Posted by Light M. on January 19, 2007 at 12:33 pm

    all these hard-core patriarchal teachings are surprisingly similar to the sexually perverse groups where the male rules and the wife is submissive, only they spank them. In the “godly homes,” men don’t spank (but if they wanted to, I would add, the wife would need to submit under the more hard-core patriarchy, because there she has no recourse against physical abuse) but it’s still all revolving around power.
    Sorry to burst your bubble Molly, but there is a growing movement (and a rather sick one, IMO) called “Christian Domestic Discipline” wherein wives are spanked – with paddles and belts at times – for infractions. And yes, it’s all about power and authority.

  6. Posted by Katie B. on January 19, 2007 at 1:19 pm

    I am sickened by this.

    “I’m thankful my daughter will not likely be called for any jury duty.”

    I take this to mean she is not allowed to vote? My heart just breaks for this girl. God help her and shame on that man for his sick form of control under the guise of fatherhood.

  7. called “Christian Domestic Discipline”

    Oh, this is disturbing.

    Now, to something funnier and completely off topic: For some reason I thought that Spunky and Keer were the same person. I’m not sure why, except I’m not so bright sometime.

  8. its ok, I’ve never heard of Lindvall… or any of the Vision Forum people till last year I think. :) So don’t let home schooling scare you off!! LOL

    I must admit, its a little … creepy sounding… but although it sounds creepy, I realize its interpretation, and just DIFFERENT (yes, with the potential for abuse, blah blah blah)…

    There are things I feel pretty sure about now, that I would have thought as a little creepy, or scary, before when I was first introduced… :)

    wow – I really didn’t realize there was so much of the full on patriarchy stuff!

  9. Light M.

    I decided to look it up on line… ?!?!!!!!!!!!!!????????

    That just seems wrong! the Marriage Bed has some good stuff to say about it… and they are coming from a “submissive wife is good” perspective, so it’s balanced and not reactive. Always helpful! :)

    Ok, I’m off now… thank you, I think, for the thoughts… :)

  10. Posted by Katie B. on January 19, 2007 at 2:28 pm

    Okay, I am clearly not up to date, I still thought voter registration was tied to jury duty. In discussing this with a friend, I realized I am incorrect in that.

    So that said, do you think she is “allowed” the register to vote?

  11. Posted by Light M. on January 19, 2007 at 2:37 pm

    Voting among patriarchalists can be quite … interesting. There are many that don’t believe women should be voting at all – Doug Wilson is one of those who believe that only a property-owning male head of household should vote. On one patriarchal forum, some women have freely admitted that they order absentee ballots and hand them over to their husbands to fill out. Apparently, that it’s against the law doesn’t seem to trouble them.

  12. Posted by Katie B. on January 19, 2007 at 3:05 pm

    Thanks for the response Light M. Now that you mention it, I think I remember reading about Doug Wilson’s property owning male rule. Not everything the founding fathers believed/sanctioned is admirable or worth imitating. Sadly, I see much evidence of revisionism and idolatry of the Puritanical ways in the Patriarchy movement writings.

  13. I read the articles, and I thought okay!! They might have some good points, but why the entire extreme measures?? From what I have read from history, and seen in the world things the ‘extreme’ never works out the way you want them to in most cases! People are so custom, and tend to leave people out in the cold if you can’t place them in that perfect little box they call life! I mean what are going to say to a woman with 9 children when her husband gets badly hurt, or dies? You told her she is NOT allowed to have an education she can fall back on, and if I were guessing SURE the church and friends will help! They sure aren’t going to support her 100%! I’m sure the “God will provide” will come up, but we also have a responsibility to step up and help that along also! The woman may have life insurance, and that will help! She will need public assistant, and she will need job training in the meantime for when that insurance money RUNS OUT! I guess they might tell her to find herself a husband – like that is something she needs to rush into right away! What are they going to do place the entire burden of this family on small boys because that is their role now? I see nothing wrong with home schooling your children, and being a housewife all your life if that is your calling! I really have a hard time with a young lady wishing to have some formal education past high school as a security blanket incase something DOES happen in life, and she needs to step up and HELP in some real way! THAT is being a feminist? Pfffft! Anything out of their mold of what the man sees has fit seems to be labeled with that! LOL It shows to me they don’t want to hear! I think this feminist word get used WAY to often as an excuse for what they want, and how they see things!

    What is heavens name is wrong with learning to be an individual? My folks gave me opportunities to learn about being an adult! I learned about money when I was allowed a paper route and babysitting! I learned how much stuff really costs when I had to pay for insurance and gas! I had to learn how to plan my time when high school came, and I wanted to be in a play and keep my job! They are downplaying the importance of certain things that can benefit any child – not just the men! We all know there are boundaries! You get placed on jury duty by registering to vote – NOT DRIVE! LOL! It seems to me that being this extreme shuts children off from being true individuals in their own right! That includes BOYS!

    They downgrade what women are in a lot of senses, and take away their human rights to feel like a woman! You can’t drive? You can’t work? You can’t have a formal education because you NEED to be protected to that extreme? I’m going to use a term I hear in high school years ago, “GAG ME WITH A SPOON!” LOL Moon Unit Zappa! I don’t have issues with people that wish to live like this, and I don’t downgrade their right to feel this is the proper way! It may be for them, and I’m sure they are happy as clams! I don’t think it is right for people to purposely set up all one gender to be completely dependent in EVERY way to the other! LOL you are just looking for trouble!

    Victorian times huh? The woman’s suffrage movement started because of the unfair position women and children had to suffer under due to power hungry males! I’m not saying all relationships are like that! Heaven’s name NO! There were a lot of families that suffered and died due to over zealous men thinking they needed to control every facuet of the world! I’m even imagine the suffering they had to deal with!

    I don’t have any problems with traditional roles okay? Their version of traditional roles I have a BIG problem with! I remember hearing such things when I went with my father somewhere as a little girl, and I really started to worry! LOL! I got in the car with Dad and said, “Daddy! Is that what women are really suppose to be like? Is that something you want?” He giggled at me, “I could take that for maybe less than a week! Then I would want your mother back!” LOLOLOL! Kind of tells me not all men would even be comfortable with this setup!

  14. Yes, I really respect a person’s right to decide that the world oughta work a certain way, but I also admit to feeling horrible for the girls who are told/taught, “this is God’s way,” and then have to consider themselves in SIN if they have an urge to go to the mission field, or to go to college, etc…
    .
    But I guess that’s just the way it works in all frongs. I mean, that’s what the parenting camps do too—the Ezzo’s teaching, “God’s Way” to parent, and the opposite extremes teaching that you are in sin if you give your toddler a swat, etc…
    .
    or anything else like that: it’s our way or it’s sin. I mean, we have some very clear Scriptural commands: adultery is a sin. Murder is a sin. Etc… But we have to admit that there is a LOOOOOOOOOOT of room in many areas of personal discernment, and that’s the problem, that’s why there are 57,834 different interpretations for what we oughta do in those areas…
    .
    So how can we work to RESPECT others opinions about what we ought to do [meaning, we allow folks the freedom to make a rule if they feel there ought to be one], and yet at the same time encourage free-thinking and NON-passive Berean minds.
    .
    I guess what I’m saying is that we need to give people the freedom to follow their convictions, yet we also need to give everyone else the freedom to question those convictions. Can this be done with a group of people in real life? In Real Life, can I fellowship with Lindvall’s family, both RESPECTING their choices yet disagreeing with their choices? And, perhaps the bigger question (and one they’d probably say, “No,” to, from everything I’ve read), would they be willing to fellowship with me.
    .
    I am so NOT interested in finding a little group of “like-minded” people who agree on every little thing…it just seems like that’s selfish, a retreat into what’s safe for US and not thinking globally, not thinking about the big picture but thinking very small, very fear-based (don’t let the big bad world “infect us,” instead of Jesus freely and joyfully going “into all the world).”
    .
    I want to work with a group of people where we respect and love eachother in our samenesses and in our differences…meaning, not everyone has to sign on the dotted line their agreement to a billion little doctrinal issues…
    .
    YET, at the same time, do I want to join hands with a group so diverse that I’m not comfortable with any of them teaching, say, Bible doctrine to my children because I disagree with them doctrinally on major issues.
    .
    Does that make sense or am I totally just rambling? lol… I’m just tring to think this out in real life. Or maybe I’m just wishing for something that is impossible this side of heaven.

  15. Really, it’s such a “through the looking glass” kind of worldview to me! I’ve been single for many years and let me tell you…driving is NOT optional! Not if I’m going to have a roof over my head and cat food in the girls’ dish! Seriously, I think that level of control over another human being’s life is simply ungodly. GOD trusts each of us adult human beings to grow in faith, in intellect, in giftedness, and in every other way. Advocates of this kind of subjugation of women (and yes, I use that word deliberately; it’s accurate) seem to think that women either need not or cannot grow in any way beyond young adolescent level. Children need to be led by authority figures. Adults do not. And like it or not, fellas, women are adults, just as you are. In fact, I think men who grasp for this kind of power over the women in their lives, are NOT acting very mature. It’s immature, childish nature to want to have our own way and make the world revolve around us. That’s how the world operates. That is not mature Christian behavior. Christians are supposed to emulate the Lord Jesus Christ, who emptied himself and became a servant to all, calling his followers to do the same for one another.

    There is true injustice in this kind of a warped, worldly system, no matter how much its advocates try to convince folks that it’s godly or Christian. I’m not saying that every girl–or boy–ought to get a driver’s license upon turning 16, as though that’s their due. I am saying that girls as well as boys need to be taught and encouraged to exercise healthy independence from their parents. Otherwise, how will they leave/cleave when the time comes? Parenthood, ISTM, is one of those jobs you’re supposed to work yourself out of, not perpetuate. (Not EVEN with daughters!)

    Grrr…I let myself get too angry when I see injustice perpetrated in the name of Christ.

  16. Now, to something funnier and completely off topic: For some reason I thought that Spunky and Keer were the same person. I’m not sure why, except I’m not so bright sometime.
    .
    How I wish! ;-) Spunky is WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY more wise and “with it” than I! :-)
    .
    And back onto topic, BIG SIGH. :-(
    .
    And funny you mention how wives are to obey period unless their husbands ask them to sin. I have actually run into women who say that EVEN THEN they should obey. YIKES!!!

  17. Thanks Keer, you hold your own very well too. I always enjoy your comments and perspective.

  18. Molly,
    .
    You’re making total sense, and I know exactly what you’re talking about. In my experience, rarely has someone had the nerve to come out and call those things “sin,” but there is this underlying sense of, “Well, if you were to take the time to study the issue as much as I have, then you would see that this is the biblical way of doing things.” Ah. Spiritual pride at its finest. :-(

  19. Christian Domestic Discipline…I looked it up online, too. Is it real? I just couldn’t believe what I saw…spooky, shocking, disgusting… I can’t fully express in words how wrong this(www.christiandomesticdiscipline.com) is!
    Anyway, great post Molly. I appreciate your informed and balanced view.

  20. Posted by Light M. on January 21, 2007 at 10:56 am

    Stephanie, I’d never seen that particular website before. Ugh! Is it just me, or is there an undercurrent of pornography in all this?

  21. Sorry I’m late to this. My husband only drives my van when I let him. :)

    I consider myself fairly conservative, but I feel like a flaming liberal when I read some of this stuff. It’s so bizarre to realize there are people who truly believe this.

    Psalmist, I have enjoyed your comments and perspective in this post and others on this topic. I agree with you about the worldly nature of this kind of domination.

    Light M, I think the undercurrent is that women are being objectified as the possessions of men, created for their use. It is degrading and demeaning to the personhood of women.

    Molly, interesting post and discussion, as usual. :)

  22. Posted by Kat on January 21, 2007 at 12:40 pm

    My favorite quote…
    “It would certainly be more convenient to have another driver (and we are
    delighted to have our 16-year-old son helping with the driving, now)”

    How nice that they do not consider their son to be the imbecile they believe their daughter to be…

  23. Posted by Jennifer on January 21, 2007 at 1:51 pm

    “Christian Domestic Discipline…I looked it up online, too. Is it real? I just couldn’t believe what I saw…spooky, shocking, disgusting.”

    There’s another term for CDD- its called spousal abuse. I don’t care how you spin it.

    Does anyone else get the sense that the hyper-patriarchy views women more as children then anything else? I certainly get that they don’t view women as complete image bearers of God… are we even equal in WORTH as men?

    A lot of lip service is paid in these groups to “Women are equal in value but not equal in authority” but I don’t see that playing out so well when you take the surface of what they are saying to its logical conclusion.

    So thank you, Molly, for at least being willing to ask the questions even if you are unsure of the answers.

  24. Posted by Kat on January 21, 2007 at 3:54 pm

    Hey Miss Molly…here are two sites which are horrendous, but very touting of patriarchy. I read them when my BP gets too low! I especially love the second one…in which the author writes of the wonders of phallic worship and how the Christian cross is a symbol of the phallus. Last time I checked it was a symbol of resurrection for us…and execution for the Romans. But of course…I’m just a chick!

    http:// verlch.blogspot.com/

    http:// mamonaku187.blogspot.com/

  25. Molly, Jonathan Lindvall is quite scary. He also wrote that the husband is the earth and the wife is the moon that rotates about him. He wrote that fathers are more significant than mothers and that it is not nearly has bad when a mother dies as when a father dies. He also wrote that children belong to the father and that the wife has no authority to protect her children from their father, even if he is abusing them because they are his children. He instructed the women to look at their wombs as belonging to their husbands and as the children that came from those wombs as gifts that God is giving to their husband through her. :-)

    Light, I think the Marriage Bed is a highly pornographic site. I have followed the couple (and debated them more times than I care to remember) that runs that site since the AOL days (when they only had a forum on one of the AOL boards) over a decade ago. They talk about all sorts of things and Paul teaches that men need sex every day. I cannot recommend that site and I warn against it. Just read through some of those discussions! They talk about very private and explicit sexual acts. Paul tells women that they should do all sorts of pornographic things for their husbands (I can’t even begin to give you examples because they are not fit for public consumption). Paul tells parents to allow their teenage sons to get married and to live in their homes while supporting them because they cannot live without sex and delay a sexual relationship until their twenties (after college).

    Maybe they don’t condone spanking of the wife for discipline but they aren’t against spanking (from what I remember) a wife in the context of sexual “play”.

  26. My comment over here http://adventuresinmercy.wordpress.com/2007/01/19/big-bad-ugly-contemplative-prayer/#comment-5278 also applies to this thread. I’m too busy to join in, but just wanted to say thanks for talking and for sharing your own thoughts, etc…it’s good stuff, and helps me continue to work things out in my own head.

  27. I just looked up the link Stephanie mentioned relating to Christian Domestic Discipline. It made me sick to my stomach! Another suggestion for anyone wanting to raise his/her blood pressure! I cannot believe what I just read…
    And btw personally I had the impression that that website at least has a very p*rnographic undercurrent.
    Left me (almost) speechless. WAH!

  28. Posted by Zan on January 22, 2007 at 12:25 pm

    Lindvall. Wow. Blast from the past! My family was all caught up in the Lindvall courtship/betrothal silliness. My poor sister was almost married off to some mamma’s boy when she was 16. Thank God that my dad woke up and got us away from Lindvallites.

    Jonathan Lindvall AND his wife need to be commited. Period.

    Update: My sister married who she wanted to and is very happy, expecting her 4th baby. :-)

    I was too young to be “betrothed” to anyone and escaped with any permanent scars. Homeschoolers can be very weird, but thankfully there are plenty of normal ones to balance out the weirdness.

    Molly. Your blog is really interesting. Not sure I know what to make of it, but I will definately be coming back. :-)

  29. Posted by Zan on January 22, 2007 at 12:33 pm

    About that marriage bed site. I saw it. I don’t get why Christians need to write books and start websites about “Christian” sex. Just read the Bible. The Bible contains all the guidlines for sex in the Christian life.I think if you have a specific question you should ask an older Christian privately. Sex should be private!

    It is like Christians overanalyze every little thing until they come up with some wacky ideas. I don’t need someone else to tell me how and when my husband and I engage in intimate activities.

  30. [...] I read an excellent blog post on the patriarchal movement, (Women Who Drive and the Men Who Let Them, which led me to this patriarchal article). There is much that one could comment on in an article [...]

  31. [...] ask myself: Where does this kind of dominionist stance toward women end? When daughters are no longer permitted to learn how to drive? When wives are disciplined through [...]

  32. Posted by jerryb on April 9, 2009 at 9:41 am

    i am always perplexed why the command to wives to be submissive to their husbands is not counterbalanced with the command of husbands to love their wives as ” Christ loved the church AND GAVE HIMSELF UP FOR HER”. Can anyone not see that there is mutual submission in this relationship of husband/wife and christ/church??

  33. Posted by Mike on June 5, 2009 at 7:29 am

    I was looking for a site about Mr Lindvall when I came across yours. I read your article and the associated blogs/commentary. I have very signficant concerns about Mr Lindvall’s teachings with which I am quite familiar. On the other hand I have very signficant concerns about Mollies teachings (presented as refutations to Mr Lindall’s teachings but none the less are teachings in their own right). We serve a God who is strange. That’s right… strange. Strange does not have to mean anything negative and I as have used it it is anything but strange. I would propose to you that Gods ways are, as He has said Himself “higher than your ways, as high as the heavens are above my ways are different than yours”. When it comes to authority and submission to it, it would be wise to not follow natural inclinations or the ways of those about us in order to determine how things should be or not be. In Mollies treatise I sense a lot of common sense and not bible sense behind her arguements. We need to fear common sense… not abandon it BUT to insure that it takes a back seat to The Word of God. He does not, seemingly, always agree with our so called common sense. Common sense is valuable but of limited value because it is no perfect … as God and His Word is. Let me close by noting that if you who are reading this despise the teachings on truly biblical grounds – as I am in the process of considering, well then that is acceptable in the sight of The Lord. If, on the other hand, you despise his teachings because in reality you despise submitting to authority and love ‘freedom’ (which can be no more than a cover for an independant hostile to authority spirit) then you are flat out in the wrong and are, like it or not, on the side of anti truth. No person on this earth is above the call to submission – not women, not children ….. not men. We are all called to utter submission – even our very thoughts are called into the submission of Christ:
    “Casting down imaginations [reasonings], and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ. (2 Cor. 10:4-5)”
    Paul begins each of his epistles describing himself as “servant of Jesus Christ”. If you study that word out it is, in Greek, “doulos” which means slave. Paul, without resentment, identified himself as a slave. Lest you jump to the opinion “well that was a man to his God” let me remind you that the scriptures are utterly replete with admonitions that ALL men, if they are to live pleasing to God are called to be servants to one another. God even calls slaves to have an attitude of submission to their masters:
    Colossians 3:22 Slaves, in all things obey those who are your masters on earth, not with external service, as those who merely please men, but with sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord.

    1 Timothy 6:1 All who are under the yoke as slaves are to regard their own masters as worthy of all honor so that the name of God and our doctrine will not be spoken against.

    Titus 2:9 Urge bondslaves to be subject to their own masters in everything, to be well-pleasing, not argumentative

    And if you think that that is bad advice, well then, you are unfamiliar with His Word and His ways. Truly, I find it strange and incompatable with ‘common sense’ but I, again, have found common sense to be an untrustworthy guide and the bible the only trustworthy guide …no matter how much it conflicts with common sense.

    Consider Jesus Himself – God incarnate:
    ” By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgement is just, for I seek not to please myself but Him who sent me” John 5:30
    “For I have come down from heaven not to do my wil” John 6:38
    “My teaching is not my own” John 7:16
    “I am not here on my own” John 8:28
    Jesus was not ashamed to say that His mission, His purpose, His will were all subordinate to the will of the Father. Is that freedom? Not according to ‘common sense’ it is not. But is is righteous, beautiful…. it is perfection in attitude and hehavior. If Jesus, who is God incarnate, found it proper to utterly submit (even unto death – the ultimate in submission) why then do so many argue so vociferously against it – conjuring up every imaginable arguement against it? The answer is clear, it is the spirit of anti truth masquerading as the spirit of truth.
    I do have concerns about Mr Lindvalls teachings (not all but some). I do not reject them because they are odd nor because they are strange. God is odd and strange compared to the way and thinking of men (Oh how grateful I am for that!). My ‘beef’ with him is a matter of interpretation of the scriptures and how he applies that interpretation. I laud, however, his willingness to take unpopular stands – something Jesus and His followers throughout the ages have had to do – unpleasant as that always is. My beef with “Molly” is based upon the underlying sentiment that bleeds through her writings – authority is to be tolerated and one should get out from under it whenever possible. No Molly, authority and submission to it is not a curse, it is a beautiful thing and it is God’s way. It is for all of us -and for all of us to the very same degree…. however strange that may seem. Consider the story of Joseph and where submission landed him…. I am writing a book on this very topic presently.

  34. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Mike. I appreciate how you’ve taken the time to try and articulate where you are coming from. Very thoughtful. Thanks. I just have one comment…

    My beef with “Molly” is based upon the underlying sentiment that bleeds through her writings – authority is to be tolerated and one should get out from under it whenever possible. “

    I think the problem is that we have different takes on what authority and submission are. ? That’s just my guess, though. I don’t think have a problem with actual authority/submission, and I will explain why I say that in a second. I *do* have a problem with what I consider a gross misinterpretation of healthy authority/submission, a misinterpretation that is passed off regularly (in the conservative community, generally) as healthy but is actually deeply destructive.

    By this I mean a hierarchal top-down authority that says it is good and right for followers to shut off their minds and obey a fellow human, or to see a fellow human as the oracle of God or, worse, their mediator between them and God…or that sees shut-off-brain-and-obey-human-leaders as a mark of being a good Christian.

    For example, this is the kind of thing that some Christian wives in these environments are taught: “”your husband is the voice of God to you. God’s will is whatever your husbands will for you is.”" And that kind of teaching, and others like it, violates so many Scriptures that it’s hard to know where to start, yet it continues to be perpetuated. (And, honestly, I think that a lot of the parenting teaching is even worse)…

    I don’t have a problem with the authority that Jesus described—the kind that is in a position of power but uses its power to be the lowest-bending servant. The authority described in Ephesians 4 where those “higher” in the Body use their power to bring “lower” ones up to the same height or greater—working themselves out of a job instead of grasping to maintain their power and control. Yes! The Christ-following leader is *for* those in his/her care, not the other way around. This awesome leader is most pleased when those in his/her care grow up and become leaders in their own right.

    You quoted scriptures about slavery but forgot to include that there are other verses where Paul worked to subvert slavery—-he acknowledged that it was a huge powerful system that existed in their culture, but also shared that it did not exist in God’s eyes—-our earthly “status positions” mean nothing to Him (a thing that would have shocked any slave owner to read, since they’d been taught from birth that their social status was indicative of personal superiority). If we take verses out of context or fail to consider the environment and the people they were written to, we may miss out on their intended meaning, and that is always a sad thing becuase it means we are missing out on the heart of what God breathed on the pages.

    When all is said and done, there is only One Authority, and we are all just working for Him. Those who use positions of power to maintain their own little sphere of rule and control will have to answer to Him one day for that. Jesus described to His disciples what real leadership in His kingdom means…and it is not what is usually taught…it is completely upside down thinking to the Roman world then and to our world today….but it is life-giving and worth following.

    I’m super onboard with the kind of submission that all followers of Christ learn to practice: humility, prefering others, loving ourselves and loving others with the love of God, gentleness, etc. Not submission because you are one gender or another, or one age or another, but submission because you are a follower of Christ and learning to operate in graciousness and one-anotherness towards fellow human beings is part and parcel of what it means to be His. :)

    I am a student of Christ, learning amidst my stumbling what it means to lead His way and what it means to follow His way. I don’t have a problem with either. I just have a problem with the misuse of these terms in His name and the destruction that occurs in real lives when these false teachings are appropriated.

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