I do not ever remember a time when I did not believe in God.
And I do not ever remember a time when I did not know that God was my destiny (not sure of what other word would fit), and that includes my post-highschool foray into the alternative underground in the Dallas area, when I was most certainly doing my best not to think about Him.
My mother, having come back to the faith of her childhood after I was born, loved to teach me Scripture. I have many happy memories of her and I memorizing together, and I could probably recite more at age three than many churched adults can today. My favorite was Psalm 23. More than any other mental image, I pictured God as my Shepherd and I loved Him.
Then one night, a visiting missionary’s child told me that God was going to send me to Hell where I would burn forever in fire. I was outraged. We fought for a while, we two girls in our sleeping bags, side by side in the dark, but I was only four and she was two years older than I, so I finally resorted to what all kids with loving parents will do in a time of crisis: ran to mom. She greeted my tear-streaked face with surprise and listened as I gulped and sobbed out my story, my friend standing by with her arms crossed in frustration at my obstinance, and then my mother did something that took my breath completely away.
She said that my friend was right.
I don’t remember the exact details after that, other than the shock that I felt run through my little body, and the obvious response of asking how I could get out of such a horrific fate. I quickly got on my knees and said the Sinner’s Prayer and that was the day, written in my mother’s hand in a little Bible she gave me, I was “saved.”
It is the day I have referred to for years now, only to question it recently, particularly as I muse over the different ways of looking at the atonement and begin to recoil from the predominating (at least within my evangelical culture) “legal-transaction” view.
Is being born again a moment where one says a prayer?
Is being born again the act of performing a required duty in order to escape eternal burning?
Is being born again the assent to a set of mental beliefs?
I already loved God. The only thing that night did was change the way I viewed Him. Instead of a Shepherd with a smiling face, I now had a different image of Him, a schizophrenic one, if you will. On the one hand, there was the good Jesus who loved me. On the other hand, there was the Scary God who would burn me.
In order to keep my faith sane, I buried the image of the Scary One until it came up later to haunt me, floating there beneath the shallow surface in the form of an unspoken picture of a God who demanded perfection and who’s approval was given only after the performance of proper actions.
Though my fundamentalist childhood would decry a faith that said God only granted approval after the performance of specific actions, their definition of salvation was an example of that very fact. It had less to do with Christ than it did to do with a legal transaction, the Sinner’s Prayer being my part of the deal.
So tonight I wonder if they were right, or if they, with good intentions, missed the fullness of the truth. I wonder if I was my Shepherd’s lamb all along. I wonder if a heart turned towards Him is a more accurate definition of salvation (or the evidence of salvation?) than saying a set of legal words is. And tonight I wonder if, in that dark bedroom when my little friend repeated what her parents had taught her, the resulting experience was actually more destructive to my Godward heart than it was salvific.

















Posted by Sam on November 27, 2007 at 3:43 am
If you watch or listen to any Paul Washer sermons (see YouTube), one practice (which seems to be an American one) he rails against venhemently is the idea that *assurance* of salvation comes from having said a prayer in the past, the idea that repentence is an “oh yeah, I did that” thing.
I think this is a tension spot in scripture, between the clear teaching that we are saved by faith and calling on the name of the Lord Jesus:
“If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved” (Romans 10:9)
vs. the clear teaching that many who confess Christ outwardly will not be saved because they do not obey him:
Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. (Matthew 7:21)
If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; (1 John 1:6)
Mathew 7, Luke 6, James 2, and all of 1 John speak quite strongly in this regard I think.
Posted by jacob on November 27, 2007 at 5:53 am
Κυριε Ιησου Χριστε, υιε του θεου, ελεησον με τον αμαρτωλον.
Κυριε Ιησου Χριστε, υιε του θεου, ιλασθητι μοι τω αμαρτωλω.
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.
Posted by louu on November 27, 2007 at 6:43 am
I totally understand, Molly. And excellent comment, Sam.
I was quite the same way. I always since the time I was conscience of thought (?) loved God and knew that Jesus loved me so much that He died for me. But there was a time when I realized I was a sinner and that sin had consequences. I think that part was missing before, but I still believe I was “saved” before that realization and the natural thing to do when I realized my sin was to cry out to Christ to save me (about 4) which I think was a sign that the Spirit had already regenerated me. The whole legal transaction thing (but that is just an aspect of the whole thing) I don’t have a problem with but I think it was a transaction that was made on the cross when he nailed the handwriting of ordinances that were against us and reconciled us to God in His body.
My problem is the whole looking to a prayer, a date , a strong faith, a (fill in the blank) for assurance that you are saved. That tripped me up so much when I was in high school and college until someone told me that the object of my faith was what was important not the strength of my faith and also was asked “what are you trusting right now to save you at this very moment–Christ or something else” because faith and salvation is not a one moment thing. KWIM? So there are some aspects that I get so frustrated at. I think it gives those who aren’t truly converted false hope (because they have a card, a moment where they said the “right words”) and it reeks havoc on the consciences of those who truly believe but are constantly having to remember something extranious to be assured of their salvation.
In our church now when ever the babies are baptised, our pastor always prays that there will never be a day when they don’t know the Lord. I believe that is what graciously happened to me (just didn’t know it at the time) and I pray it for my children as well even though it will worry some of our extended family that we are not pressing our children for a decision.
Posted by Jenna on November 27, 2007 at 7:13 am
I’m sorry that you had that kind of experience, certainly as a young child.
I’ve heard similar ideas about the “Sinner’s Prayer”, and I can’t help but shake my head. Oy. We are saved by God’s grace, through faith- certainly not by any set prayer.
Posted by Makeesha Fisher on November 27, 2007 at 8:12 am
I can relate. I could say a lot about my atonement views but I’ll just say this – my children will not be taught what I was taught and they will not be saying any “sinner’s prayer” as let by us unless it’s a prayer of repentance (Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on me a sinner) on their own from the heart … not as a prayer of “salvation”. It’s one reason I’m very glad we’re not in “that” church world anymore.
Posted by Nathan Bubna on November 27, 2007 at 8:18 am
I’m still deep in Ephesians, so… Eph. 2:8. By grace, through faith, this not from yourselves. I always figured the sinner’s prayer stuff was just evidence, never causal. I think your mom and the missionary’s daughter were very wrong to be so sure.
Posted by PamBG on November 27, 2007 at 8:30 am
I wholeheartedly believe that you were your Shepherd’s lamb all along.
Most certainly a heart turned toward God is the most accurate definition of salvation. When the prophets cried ‘Repent!’ they were crying ‘Turn around and turn your heart back toward God.’
We are saved by grace and damnation comes from our conscious decision to reject God.
I was just taught that God hated me, full stop. Because I was a sinner. I thought the gospel was: ‘The Father hates you but he has to let you into heaven because Jesus died for you. But you will spend eternity with a God who hates you with an everlasting and omnipotent hatred.’ Which sounded like hell to me.
I’m sorry your four year old heart was broken. And I’m sorry my four year old heart was never told that God loves me.
Posted by Cassandra on November 27, 2007 at 9:33 am
Hi, Molly… good to see you back. = ) I am one of your ‘fundamental’ readers on here, so I decided to give my two cents. I do believe that some groups take it too far- just say this prayer, and wa-la! You’re in! I do not believe that salvation is just a reciting of words… the Sinner’s prayer, if you will. However, I do believe that there has to be an ‘awakening’- a time when the Holy Spirit is dealing with your heart… convicting you, prodding you, drawing you. A time when you realize, through the power of God’s Word… whether in the quietness of your bedroom, or through a sermon… “Hey, I am a sinner, in need of a Saviour!” A time when you ask for forgiveness, realizing that He indeed is the only way of salvation. No set words- rather a decision of the heart- a laying down of your will, your life, your actions. One thing we do need to realize, however, is that God will send people to hell. Yes, God is love, but he also is a God of judgement. There is a perfect balance there. As much as we hate to admit it, He says in His Word that there will be judgement if we don’t repent. Yes, He is the Great Shepherd, but He is also a Great Judge. I do not believe in works, but I do believe that if you are truly ’saved’, your whole life will change.
Posted by Makeesha Fisher on November 27, 2007 at 10:10 am
Actually, judgment is for all, not just those who don’t repent.
also, does God send people to hell? can you expound on this Scripturally?
Posted by molleth on November 27, 2007 at 11:05 am
Sam,
I’m willing to say there may be a place of tension there, because there is something to be said about the act of making a covenant (it requires a specific moment in time, etc).
Jacob,
I always thought that prayer was really dumb, until I went through my recent health crisis and found that there was very little else I could say.
louu, that’s a cool prayer your pastor prays over the babies!
Jenna, I’ve never thought of it as a bad experience—I’ve actually always viewed it as the day I was “saved.” It’s only recently that I’m wondering, as well as reflecting on how that moment dramatically changed my view of God. I love what you share about being saved by God’s grace through faith.
Makeesha, I really struggle with how to communicate it to my children, because I’m not exactly sure. I personally lean towards the idea that on the Cross, Christ was the last Adam (that our death in Him was because He was ending the race of Adam, because it was subject to sin and death and the devil, and when He raised, He raised as a new kind of Man, and allows us to be a part of that new creation by our being “in Him.”
So for my kids, it’s a view kind of like,in kid-speak, “We were stuck in our fallen selves, and Jesus came and rescued us—by killing our old hearts, since they were literally that rotten, and then giving us a brand new heart that can get to know Him!”
So I, too, veer from the way I was taught about it growing up.
Nathan, I like that: evidence, not causal. Great way to put it. And as for my mom and my little friend, they were just believing what they had been taught, that’s all.
My mom is the reason I love God, if I had to give credit to a human side of that love, in that she introduced me to Him early on and then demonstrated that He Lived through her life (sometimes in very negative circumstances, which is when He shone brightest).
PamBG, I really relate with the way you were introduced to God because that was my experience in the little (sweet!) fundamentalist church we attended! While I learned to love Him on the one hand, on the other hand it’s a little disconcerting to think that if you don’t say the right thing, He wasn’t going to shed one tear about dropping you into Hell. Yipes!
Cassandra, WHOOHOOO! We can’t have a good conversation without having our Cassandra around, now can we???
Glad to see you here and glad to see you throwing in your perspective.
Posted by Makeesha Fisher on November 27, 2007 at 12:11 pm
we teach our kids about God being love, justice, mercy, grace, safety, warmth, wholeness
we teach them that God wants to talk with us, and us to talk with him. that he knows us and cares about us and he wants us to know him
we teach them that sin is those things we do that are wrong because they hurt our relationships with God and with other people and that we do those things because we are sick in our souls and that Jesus brings healing
we teach them that we confess our sins to one another and to God so that we can be healed and have right relationships with God and with others and that God in his grace forgives casting our sin as far as the east is from the west.
and we teach our kids that following the path of Jesus is the best way to live life – that it’s not the easiest or the coolest but that it’s the best and that we can follow the life of Jesus because of his death and resurrection and that when we accept that and follow that path, we will live a life of Justice and Mercy and humility joining with the God of mission on this earth and when we die we will live with God forever
that’s how we’ve chosen to do it.
we also teach Shayel the creeds and points of catechism and the foundations of Christian orthodoxy in age appropriate ways.
I’m sure at some point she will want to make a more formal profession of faith, I think that’s usually a very normal progression but not a necessary one (many people cannot pin point a conversion moment and yet are just as “saved” as anyone) and when she can articulate those points of orthodoxy and is mature enough to commit to the way of Christ then she will be baptized in water as a “rite of passage” (I don’t have a problem with infant baptism by the way, this is just what we do)
Posted by jacob on November 27, 2007 at 12:11 pm
Same here. I still don’t find The Way of the Pilgrim all that interesting, but The Jesus Prayer has become a regular part of my life. Fr. Patrick Henry Reardon (Editor, Touchstone Magazine) did a prayer seminar here last year in which he discussed how to modify it, e.g.: “Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, who is the Good Shepherd of His Sheep, have mercy on me, a sinner”; “Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, who ever lives to make intercession for me, have mercy on me, a sinner”; etc.
Posted by Makeesha Fisher on November 27, 2007 at 1:41 pm
I love the Jesus prayer – I use it for meditative prayer. NT Wright also has a version I like.
Posted by Kievas Fargo on November 27, 2007 at 4:31 pm
I think salvation is an ongoing process, and that “being saved” doesn’t come down to a single moment in time. Nor do I believe that those who have never prayed that prayer are destined for hell. I think we are all judged, believers and otherwise, and it’s up to God to decide who is ultimately saved or not.
On a lighter note, the “salvation prayer” reminds me of the atheist’s prayer: “God–if there is a God–save my soul–if I have a soul.”
Posted by Valerie on November 27, 2007 at 4:35 pm
Hi Molly! I have been reading, just had nothing to say. The Lord has had me doing less talking and more seeking, lately, though I have wanted to comment!
This is something I can really relate to. I believe the way we view salvation in the church has a lot of flaws. Looking at my husband’s ’salvation experience’ and mine illustrates this. I grew up in a home that wasn’t inherently christian. My parents sent us to church (but didn’t come themselves) to ‘cover their bases’, I guess, lol. I remember always having an awareness ofGod. As a little girl, I used to like in bed saying to the Father, ‘please take me to heaven when I die. I don’t want to go to hell.’
I would say that I grew into my salvation. I guess when I was around 16 or 17 I really fell love with Godand walked with Him in earnest. I do not have a ‘day’ when I was ‘converted’. Yet I see my salvation as completely valid. I reember someone telling me I could not be saved if I didn’t remember the moment of salvation (!!!) but that didn’t really bother me. I knew my Father.
My husband, on the other hand, grew up in a christian home. He remembers as a little boy of four sitting up on the kitchen bench and his mother asking him if he wanted to ask Jesus to walk with him forever and if he loved Him with all his heart. He *distinctly* remembers the feeling that came over him and his life was truly transformed from that point. He found himself loving his sister more (and not teasing her as he used to so much!) and have a sense of God with him all the time. He sees that moment as a pivotal point.
Both experiences are completely valid, in my opinion. I have grown in God even though I never had a ’salvation experience’, lol. I believe there are lots of people who come to know the Father in the oddest ways, and ways that challenge our religiousity, lol. It comes back to a heart thing, as most things in christianity do. I believe we are going to be quite suprised about who we rub shoulders with in heaven, one day!
It SO isn’t about words. The bible does not speak so much about conversion as it does about becoming disciples. I do not have my bible with me right now, but I think it is in Matthew 28 – the great commission – where we are told to go out into the nation and make disciples. The thing is, we have read this to mean missionaries. What the verse is talking about is immersing people in the nature, character and love of Christ, not dunking them in a tub so much. That is what salvation is all about. You are doing that with your children and those you come into contact with. I do that in my classroom, and with all the people God sends into our lives. I met this guy at the petrol station a while back, got chatting, and now he has come to church on occasion and he LOVES to hear about the Lord, even though he is buddhist. It would be completely pointless to get him to pray a prayer, dust our hands and hope that’s that. He needs to learn how to become a son.
This is why I believe we cannot ‘lose’ our salvation, but we can choose not to walk with God anymore. It is not about praying a prayer in a moment of emotion, but about learning to walk with God and grow in Him from that point. This is why so many people get ’saved’ at big rallies or whatever (not that I’m against them as such) and never end up walking with the Father. We need to grow people in the faith, do as the apostles did. You cannot immerse people in the nature of Christ without really getting into their lives. We need raise sons, reproduce the reality of Christ in our hearts in others.
I could talk for hours about this, but then I would start to ramble on how we see ‘church’ and so on and so on!
Valerie
ps I love that prayer. It speaks to me about being in a place of complete brokeness and knowing there is nothing of me that is getting me through – only and nothing but Him.
Posted by molleth on November 27, 2007 at 5:01 pm
Oooh, Valerie, please ramble here anytime. Good stuff.
Keivas, yes. And that was funny, too, you nut…
Posted by Lindsey @ enjoythejourney on November 27, 2007 at 5:58 pm
Oh Molly, what I love about you is your desire to nail down the deep issues!
I am 30 years old and I still don’t know the answer. Like you, I can’t remember a time when I didn’t love God. And, I didn’t even grow up in a Christian home. I grew up in a moral home, one where we talked about being good and doing good, and we went to church semi regularly (because that was what you DID, not because of any relationship).
I was raised in the Quaker church which has an entirely different view on salvation than most protestant churches. Too long and too deep to delve into it now, but let’s just say I have issues because of those teachings, both good and bad.
When I was 13 my grandma died. I wanted so badly to be with her one day, that I took out some fire insurance
and said the sinners prayer out of complete fear. I knew in my heart I was already “saved” but I said the prayer and confessed it to someone else, just to be sure.
Since that time, I’ve probably prayed that prayer 100 times. Why? Because I have been taught repetively that if you can’t remember the day and time you walked the church aisle to tell someone and then be Baptized, you really arent’ saved. I sat under this teaching for the past 6 years and it has confused me.
I know that I know that I know I am saved ( agreat SBC term, that know that you know one!). But, do I feel this passionate feelings about one date in my past where I did the prayer? No. why? because it was completely fear-driven and grace-less and love-less.
So I read this thread with interest, dear Molly. You are one smart chick, you know that?
Posted by Valerie on November 27, 2007 at 6:27 pm
I guess the crux of it is that we have an experience or a revelation or something, then say, ‘this is how it is, and this is how it should be’, and pitch a tent at that point. The thing is that God is God, and He likes to be tricky! He likes to take that religious c*&^^ and do it His way!
God is FAR more interested in the heart than he is about how we do things. Far more. In the church we tend to care more about how we appear to others, or even how we present or display God to others, than in what is happening between us and God in our hearts.
Valerie
Posted by molleth on November 27, 2007 at 7:03 pm
Valerie,
I think I totally agree with you on this issue. It’s impossible for us as humans to nail down the heart, so we like to find something visible to nail.
Not that God doesn’t use visible things alongside invisible things. So…it getteth complicatedeth…
Lindsey…oh, I want to pick your brain, girl. I have a billion questions to ask you…but I’m sitting on my husband’s lap typing this, and, er, it’s looking like my moment of typing is over *raises eyebrows seductively* More later~!
Posted by Cassandra on November 27, 2007 at 7:48 pm
Mak,
“also, does God send people to hell? can you expound on this Scripturally?”
2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
2Pe 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person…..
2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
2Pe 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
If you have e-Sword, go on it and type in ‘wrath of God’. You’d be surprised at how many verses pop up. This one, for instanc…
Col 3:6 For which things’ sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
Now, it goes on to say, as children of God, to put on these things, focusing on charity…
Col 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
Col 3:14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
Col 3:15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
I know there is more, but I’m tired. = )
God is the ultimate judge. So while I don’t think that the focus needs to be a total ’scare tactic’, I do think that there needs to be a little fear involved. We are all sinners, in need of a Saviour. If we choose to reject that Saviour, there is a literal, burning hell. And I don’t think it’s all bad if we are a bit fearful of going there. Oh, and by the way, I was also four when I ‘got saved’, and yes, it was after hearing a sermon on hell, (albeit three hours later, when a little girl asked her daddy about God, heaven, and hell) but I know, at that point in my life, it is when I truly ‘got saved.’ I made a concious heart desicion to follow Christ, and to give him my heart. I haven’t looked back since. = )
Posted by kristen on November 27, 2007 at 9:49 pm
I had a lot of childhood and young adult issues stemming from fundamentalist views of salvation. For me, I was very worried that I didn’t REALLY mean it, and I had to REALLY mean it, and I prayed the prayer over and over. It was about me.
My children are told that they do believe. (They are almost 2 and 3). They are taught the faith. They are told they belong to Christ, they are God’s Kate and God’s Lexi. The first Christian children’s song they learned? “I am Jesus’ Little Lamb” I hope that they see that it is about God, and his overwhelming love for them, and not about the posture or words they choose.
Posted by molleth on November 27, 2007 at 11:38 pm
Kristen,
I have done the same thing: told them that they are His from the get go. I love it!
Cassandra,
Thanks for taking the time to elaborate your thoughts and to share Scriptures!
Posted by Makeesha Fisher on November 28, 2007 at 7:23 am
thanks for expounding, although there’s certainly nothing new there that I haven’t heard before and I still don’t see where God sends people to hell
but then again, I don’t believe in a literal burning fire of eternal damnation so I’m not going to pursue the debate further.
Posted by Cassandra on November 28, 2007 at 7:45 am
Yep, if you don’t believe in a literal hell, then it’s pointless debating about it, isn’t it? = ) I guess I am just a black and white type of person. There is no grey for me. ( and nope, all fundamentalists aren’t that way!) If the Bible says it, then I believe it. The Bible tells about hell- a literal place of fire and brimstone- complete with the worm that dieth not. So I believe in a literal hell. Can you show me Scripturally where the Bible says there isn’t a literal hell? I would really like to see verses that back up your belief, for I am curious as to why you don’t believe in a hell.
Posted by Makeesha Fisher on November 28, 2007 at 8:22 am
yes, black and white, that’s a good way to put it
I’m all shades of gray and colors hehe
I believe in hell, I just don’t believe it’s a literal eternal fire. AND I don’t think it’s a big deal either
I don’t want people to be separated from God in this life or the next for any length of time in any fashion so it really doesn’t matter to me whether hell is literal eternal fire or not.
My focus though, of my question, was not about a literal hell but rather if God literally sends people there. It’s an important point in terms of how we view God and view his role in our lives.
and back to the original post, I believe it’s irresponsible and bordering on spiritual abuse to subject a young child to teachings about hell. I suffered greatly from those types of teachings…along with the left behind crap I was taught.
I completely disagree with the idea that we should put “fear” into our little one’s hearts in order that they would be “saved”. And I also don’t think I need to put fear into the hearts of my friends either..not that it would matter, they don’t believe in hell so it’s moot for them.
Posted by Cassandra on November 28, 2007 at 8:41 am
Oh, and don’t think that I sit around telling my four precious children horror stories about hell! We don’t. They do know about heaven and hell, but our main point and focus is *showing* them that we love God- in our home life, in our ‘church life’, in our ministry, in our heart. *AND* we try to show them just how loving, gracious, and magnificent God is.
Posted by Atlantic on November 28, 2007 at 9:30 am
Makeesha, what you’re getting is is more the “we send ourselves to hell”, as in Lewis’s The Great Divorce?
Posted by Makeesha Fisher on November 28, 2007 at 10:29 am
that’s good to know Cassandra. But don’t say it as if it were a given. Instilling fear into people, even the very young, is a very very popular methodology of teaching “salvation” esp. within the very conservative branches of evangelical Christianity. It’s not an ancient teaching, it was made popular more by the holiness movements…but it prevails today.
something like that Atlantic.
the teaching that God sends people to hell is contrived. It’s created from bits and pieces of proof text’d Scriptures and yet as errant as it is, it’s perpetuated by pastors from pulpits and street preachers the world over with little thought as to the powerful and negative ramifications.
It’s the same as with the popular “God hates” belief.
Posted by sue on November 28, 2007 at 11:02 am
Along these lines, my sons were subjected to a guest speaker at Vacation Bible School (Nazarene version) who told them Satan wanted their souls and he was ’seeking to devour them’. Along with her spooky puppets, she effectively scared my youngest son from walking into the building for the next couple of months. The other teachings my boys were exposed to helped my oldest decide at age 10 that he had enough and he was going to become Catholic like his dad’s side of the family. Frightening children as a teaching method is still alive.
Posted by tiffany on November 28, 2007 at 11:06 am
Makeesha- I would agree with you about not putting fear into people to get them saved, at least not a wordly self focused fear. But there is a different type of fear- The Fear of God which is the beginning of all wisdom, which certainly is fear but of a very different type. And that is good and right, but a complete different sort of category than being afraid of hell in a fleshly sort of way. Yes?
Atlantic- I have always found “The Great Divorcre” very interesting. And mind a lot of merrit in it. Glad you brought it up.
I think a lot of people have brought up some great points. That it isn’t just about a one time prayer- so true! And certainly much harm can be done focussing too much on a one time prayer. A quote from another blog (http://rootsbytheriver.blogspot.com) on the assurance of salvation I think is applicapable:
I think we see in the Bible most often examples of conversion- not so much a process. But the big thing though that stands out to me in these conversions is that the focus is always on Christ, what HE did, and the believer being filled with the Holy Spirit. We are told in Acts that Xnumber of people were added to their number on various occasions, not that they began to be added or anything else. But, to say again, they were added because of Christ and the Spirit, the focus is never “just pray this prayer” but rather “believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord”. Does that make any sense? I feel like I am rambling.
Also, I wonder if some of what we are talking about is the idea of santification vs. justification? That we can be fully Christ’s but that doesn’t mean all the wrinkles are ironed out. He is still in us and working in us and confrming us to His image for the rest of our lives. Yes, once we are His we should see immediate fruit in our lives, but I think it is arguable that the amount of fruit and the resemblance that we have to our Lord will increase as we grow in Him. So maybe that is some of what some of us here have experienced?
Posted by tiffany on November 28, 2007 at 11:35 am
After commenting, this verse came to mind. There are things in the Bible that are scary, so to speak. In once sense it really does seem to be that those who aren’t in God should fear- and fear greatly. Now, the goodness (or lack there of) of a VBS puppet show on Hell could certainly be talked about, but there are things in the Bible that are scary. But that is part of the Goodness of the Good news. We are saved from something as well as to something, we are saved by someone and are in that Someone as well going to that Someone. There are just so many aspects.
Posted by molleth on November 28, 2007 at 1:11 pm
I am enjoying listening in on the conversation about Hell.
I personally prefer to think of Hell as a place that people would RATHER go to than be in the presence of God.
For them, it seems the Scriptures present God as being absolutely horrific to behold. Think about it: when Jesus comes in the heavens on a white horse, *we* are all looking at Him and being overwhelmed by His awesomeness. But Revelation talks about the rest of the world looking at Him and reviling Him, hiding under rocks and hills just to escape the horror of His presence.
So I’m thinking something happens in our hearts to change the way we see…so when we see Jesus, those of us who belong to Him are overwhelmed with His grandeur and beauty. Those who do not belong to Him are freaked out with horror. They run to Hell of their own accord, because it is the farthest place they can find away from Him.
It’s a theory. I admit it.
But the idea that Calvinism promotes—that God makes most of the world incapable of following Him, specifically so that they could be “vessels of wrath” and be tortured for eternity–is repugnant to me. It is the opposite of what Jesus was like when He walked on this earth (and He was the “express image of God,” was He not?).
I have to reconcile the concept of Hell with the God I see portrayed in the Gospels. They have to somehow match, make sense together, you know? And the version/theory of Hell I grew up with doesn’t match the God who walked in flesh and blood. So I’m not entirely sure what is wrong with the view I grew up with, but something’s off.
As for fearing God, yes. I am a total fan of fearing God. He’s dang big. I love Him and at the same time always hold a good healthy respect for the fact that I am but dust. I think that’s what the fear is supposed to be. I don’t think it’s a fear that if we don’t perform properly, He will drop us squirming and screaming into the fires of eternal torture. So defining the fear is important.
Enjoying the thinking–thanks,
MOlly
Posted by Marcia on November 28, 2007 at 1:26 pm
Molly by Golly–love reading your thoughts again.
This Chesterton quote is totally not related to this post but it made me think of you when I read it, although I think you are both things:
“The poet only asks to get his head into the heavens. It is the logician who seeks to get heaven into his head. And it is his head that splits.”
Ow. My head hurts.
Posted by Makeesha Fisher on November 28, 2007 at 1:28 pm
yes, fear of God – but not terror. And fear of God develops OUT OF LOVE for God, OUT OF EXPERIENCING God’s love. I think we are very very wrong when we teach the young to fear God, or even fear hell. When we teach the young – or even adults for that matter, about God’s love and desire to be near us, a proper reverence will come from that and an understanding of hell can develop at its proper time (Jesus spoke of hell 90% of the time when talking with the religious – not those he was trying to “convert”)…not to mention that we don’t KNOW what hell is anyway…so we can say very little about it – - Jesus also said very little about it.
Posted by sue on November 28, 2007 at 1:39 pm
When I think of fear, I think of Isaiah 6:1-7. Imagine standing in front of Yahweh Sabaoth! “Woe is me for I am a women of unclean lips” seems to sum it up quite well. My vision of hell is being forever separated from my Lord.
Posted by louu on November 28, 2007 at 1:40 pm
“But the idea that Calvinism promotes—that God makes most of the world incapable of following Him, specifically so that they could be “vessels of wrath” and be tortured for eternity–is repugnant to me. It is the opposite of what Jesus was like when He walked on this earth (and He was the “express image of God,” was He not?). ”
Ummmm, I’m a Calvinist and this is not what I believe or what the majority of Calvinist promote
. We see the majority of people being saved. We see people as incapable of following Him because they choose to be that way (free will) and are now dead in that (bondage of the will) and He graciously brings those He chooses back to life (a majority of peoples). Was it not Jesus who said that the “goats” would be cast into everlasting torment (Mt.)–based on their works, works that showed there was no heart for God? Jesus had a lot to say about hell and torment. As Tiffany said, some people choose to focus on that to the exclusion of so much more (thinking of evangelist that I have heard). I think that a lot of this preaching comes from a lack of belief in the power and sovereignty of God, so they think they have to get someones attention because if they don’t they have missed their only chance. It is a type of preaching (in my opinion) that is born out of fear (fear that souls will be lost) than out of faith (faith the God will save souls and that it is up to Him not us).
Posted by Lindsey @ enjoythejourney on November 28, 2007 at 1:40 pm
I don’t know….I really don’t. I think Hell is the absence of God.
With or without fire, that isn’t a place anyone would want to be, if given the foreknowledge of it?
This is such an interesting discussion.
Posted by tiffany on November 28, 2007 at 2:49 pm
Molly- I have the exact same theory about Hell. I too admit it is a theory, but one I am rather found of.
The image to me in The Last Battle about sums it up. And no, I’m not a big propent of getting ones theology from fiction, but even though the Bible does say an awful lot about Hell and judgement I still have a very hard time getting my head around it.
Makeesha- I think I am misunderstanding something in your position. I’m sure if we were sitting and chatting over coffee I’d know better where you are coming from, but as it is I think I’ll have to be content not knowing quite what you mean and thus not responding to it.
Lindsey- I think you are quite right that Hell is the absense of God. But like Molly pointed out, that not everyone will rejoice in His presence. I think there is something about encountering God (whether here now, or even greater at judgement) that requires us to realize where we are in the order of things. In otherwords, we have to truly admit that God is in fact God and not us. So, maybe in some sense Hell would be a place people would “want” to go to in order to not have to be in the presense of God’s holiness??
Wow, I used “I think” and “maybe” in that comment far too much…leaving now until I have to actually look up verses instead of referencing Chronicles of Narnia.
Posted by Cassandra on November 28, 2007 at 3:02 pm
After reading through everything again, I think that none of us will really understand hell until we are in Heaven. Lol- does that make sense? I believe in a literal, burning hell, where God does not exist, but I don’t think that I, nor anyone, can fully comprehend what it must be like while we are here, on earth, in our earthly bodies. If we did, then no one would want to go there, right?
Posted by Makeesha Fisher on November 28, 2007 at 3:59 pm
tiffany – what are you not understanding? fear of God is an awe and reverence that we experience when we have experienced God’s grace and love. It’s not something that should be used to “get people saved” and it’s not something that should be taught to young children until they are capable of understanding the difference between holy fear and carnal terror.
Posted by Makeesha Fisher on November 28, 2007 at 4:01 pm
cassandra – yes, which is why I think we need to be very careful how we use (and abuse) the concept of hell as it can do much long lasting damage and if I’m going to risk damaging someone’s image of God himself, I better be sure of what I’m talking about. And since I can’t be sure of what hell is or isn’t, I communicate it with great caution.
Posted by Misty on November 29, 2007 at 7:05 pm
Oh, I *heart* Molly!:) You and I are living parallel lives. One in Alaska, one in Georgia.