Some people have wondered why I would be interested in learning more about the Orthodox Church. I guess there would be many reasons for that, most of which I don’t have a coherant response to yet, but a major one is a Protestant Big Boy. And so here’s where I get thrown out of the camp and dragged to the stake, but it seems silly not to be honest only for the sake of group think. Fact is, I’m fed up with Sola Scriptura.

Sola Scriptura is Latin for “Scripture alone.” Essentially, it means,
the assertion that the Bible as God’s written word is self-authenticating, clear (perspicuous) to the rational reader, its own interpreter (”Scripture interprets Scripture”), and sufficient of itself to be the final authority of Christian doctrine.
First Question: Does the Bible say that it is the final authority of Christian doctrine?
Second Question: Is the Bible clear to the rational reader?
My problem is that every little group says they are following the Bible alone—and that it’s meaning is clear (meaning, anyone with a rational mind will come to see that the group’s interpretation is the only correct way of seeing things).
Growing up, we described ourselves as a non-denominational church that simply followed the Bible. But when I left home, I learned that every other non-denominational church said the same thing, as well as all the demoninations. We all claimed we were teaching the clear plain truths of Scripture, so why, then, did we have so many different interpretations?
Complimentarians and Egalitarians both find their position from Scripture. The Armenian and Calvinist positions both claim they are found in the clear teaching of the Bible. Charismatic and non-Charismatic both base their stance on the Scriptures. The Church of Christ claims it best reflects God’s desire for the way “church” ought to be, but then again, so does the Baptist and the Pentacostal, and all three of them point to the Bible for “proof” that they are right.
I’ve used the Bible as my source for many positions myself. I saw clearly in it’s pages that I was to believe one thing, only later to completely change, based on what I saw in it’s pages, to a completely different position. At no time was I disobeying what I saw in the Bible, though I went from one position to another.
Some want to throw up their hands and say, “Fine, it’s all about Jesus,” but thereagain, we must go to the Bible to define what we mean by Jesus. And using the very same book, there are all sorts of different views on who Jesus is.
Isn’t this why we have the Creeds? But if the Bible is so clear, why do we need Creeds to help define what we mean by calling ourselves Christians? Is it perhaps that it’s not so clear, hence the need to write down the essentials of the faith?
Was the Bible ever supposed to be clear? That’s what I’m wondering.
Further Thought (if you haven’t already shaken the dust from your feet in departure): An article called, “The Bible and the Church,” that I recently read that spawned the impetus for this post, though it by no means produced any of these thoughts–they’ve been in my head for some time now. This quote by Franky Schaeffer on the Bible is also something not to be missed, and another article on Sola Scriptura in the Early Church (Roman Catholic) with quotes from the Church Fathers on interpreting Scripture apart from the Church teachings/tradition, and another one here.

















Posted by Nathan Bubna on November 29, 2007 at 9:35 pm
Heh. “rational readers” are a rare breed.
Here’s where i invoke Chesterton’s explanation of lunatics (see Orthodoxy) and the proverb about the blind men and the elephant in a half-hearted defense of Scripture’s authority. Rational human minds are to the blind men’s hands as theology/the Bible/God himself are to the elephant. It is not a problem with our rational reading, our reason is simply too small and our confidence in it too large. The Bible describes an infinite God incompletely, but even so, it describes Him more completely than we can rationally fit into our heads without contradiction.
Those who define sola scriptura as you described it are enshrining not only the Bible, but also man’s ability to comprehend it. I will vigorously stand by Scripture’s final authority, as i believe it is wholly trustworthy. I will never however, so vigorously defend our understanding of it. The two do not deserve anything near equal treatment. Nor will i call the Bible our sole authority. I do not believe God speaks solely through scripture nor that He ever has limited Himself so.
Posted by Maureen E on November 29, 2007 at 10:29 pm
Hmm, well I already agree with you, but then that should be fairly obvious.
Posted by Acceptance-with-Joy on November 29, 2007 at 11:28 pm
Molly,
It is already late and now I will have to respond.
Have you read Honor Thy Fathers?
I have struggled with the idea of Sola Scriptura too. My rationale isn’t quite the same as yours. But I am not sure I could adequately explain it here without hijacking your comment section.
But, recently I took one of those silly online tests. This one was supposed to tell me what religion I most closely aligned myself with. Uh… the highest I scored was 62%. I suppose this means that I no longer hold a theological position. I kind of like having company!
Posted by reneegrace on November 29, 2007 at 11:44 pm
The biggest thing that jumped out at me in the description of Sola Scriptura was the whole rational mind…
How on earth is my rational mind supposed to make sense of God and His ways and His thoughts and His creation and His… majesty and mystery?!?!?
by the way – I got thankful finally
Thanks for tagging me. – oh by the way – where were you Monday? your tea got cold!!
Posted by jacob on November 30, 2007 at 3:58 am
One of the best defenses of “Sola Scriptura” is Keith A. Mathison The Shape of Sola Scriptura. Among his arguments, Mathison claims that the modern practice/belief should more accurately be called “Solo Scriptura,” as he says that what is taught and believed today is a misrepresentation of what the Reformers meant and taught. He critiques the Roman Catholic and Orthodox positions and the Evangelical “solo” Scriptura position, and then sets forth and defends what he means by “Sola Scriptura.” A review of his book can be found here.
[FYI - Mathison's earlier book, Given for You: Reclaiming Calvin's Doctrine of the Lord's Supper, was one of the books that began nudging me away from the Zwinglian memorial/symbolic understanding of the Eucharist, the view that Mathison refers to as celebrating Christ's "Real Absence" (versus His "Real Presence").]
And … having seen/heard Frank Schaeffer in Dallas a couple years ago, and read his Dancing Alone and Letters to Father Aristotle, as well as his just-published Crazy for God – all written after he became Orthodox (the first two books directly deal with Orthodoxy) – I would be careful in using him.
That said, I find “Sola Scriptura” even as Mathison describes/defends it to be problematic in statement and practice.
So, are you next going to discuss “Inerrancy”? Wear your asbestos suit! ;^)
Posted by jacob on November 30, 2007 at 5:52 am
From the “Honor Thy Fathers” essay from Acceptance-with-Joy (thanks for the link!):
That has got to be one of the most unintentionally funny (in a sad way) quotes I have ever read. Hopefully it was taken out of context, but even if it was not, it illustrates the blind spot in the mindset of those who really and sincerely believe that they can and do approach the Bible in a tabula rasa fashion.
Posted by Cassandra on November 30, 2007 at 6:54 am
oohh, this will be fun to comment on, but alas, I am off to teach a whole day of lessons to piano students. And then, a wedding rehearsal tonight. And tomorrow, a wedding. And I want to comment! (But you already knew that, right? = )
Posted by Jenna on November 30, 2007 at 7:31 am
Hi Molly,
Are there good reasons that you have for being “fed up” with sola scriptura, other than people tend to disagree and believe themselves right? *laughs* Quite frankly, it seems to me that because we are this side of heaven, we simply cannot comprehend the fullness of God and what He has done. With only partial understanding, it doesn’t seem unreasonable to me that many people question and debate various issues of faith.
I am curious as to what you think is the better alternative. I don’t think that it is enough to have an “I don’t believe” statement without providing information on what you DO believe, or what you see as a solution/correction of thinking.
Posted by Marcia on November 30, 2007 at 8:29 am
Hey, is that typo deliberate? ; )
Carry on, commenters. This topic fascinates me.
Posted by jacob on November 30, 2007 at 8:32 am
A preceding issue that underlies any doctrine of or belief in “Sola Scriptura” is: What is “Scripture” – i.e., which books are “Scripture” and on what basis is that decision made? E.g., Luther wanted to throw out James and I think Revelation, too. On what basis would or could one say he was wrong – or right? How about the fact that when the New Testament authors quoted from the Old Testament, 90% of their quotes came from the Septuagint (I believe this figure comes from Lee Martin McDonald’s book on the canon, and he’s a Protestant scholar), and the oldest copies and information we have about the Septuagint shows that it included books that are in the Catholic and Orthodox canons (i.e., the so-called Apocrypha or Deuterocanonicals), but are excluded from most Protestant canons of “Scripture.” At times the authors of Scripture quoted from verses that read quite differently from their reading in Protestant Bibles – e.g., Hebrews 10:5. It’s not just WHICH books are “Scripture,” but which WORDS of some of the verses in those books are “Scripture.”
Gotta run….
Posted by Mike Swalm on November 30, 2007 at 8:38 am
I too have troubles with Sola Scriptura as it is commonly understood, and worry that with it, evangelicalism and protestantism in general may be guilty of leaning toward bibliolatry. What I mean is this: I’ve heard many people say that the Bible is the way God has self-revealed. Unfortunately, this betrays the Bible’s very subject. Jesus is the way God has most fully self-revealed, and the Bible is the story of Jesus. This may seem a small point, but in actuality i think the entire debate hinges on Jesus. The Bible is not a manual, nor is it just a storybook. It is the story of God’s interaction with the world, and as such, has much to teach. I still claim that the Bible is authoritative in my life inasmuch as the Bible points us to Christ and the life we are to live in him. my difficulty comes from the proof-texting, the endless exegetical arguments, the kjvonly controversy…it just gets tiring. Besides, the Bible is NOT easy for anyone to just pick up and understand. Tell me that after reading the story of moses and zipporah and the circumcision in the desert, or lot and his daughters, or 1 timothy 2 versus paul’s other writings about women praying and prophesying.
sorry…rant done.
blessings,
mike
Posted by molleth on November 30, 2007 at 11:36 am
Mike, I am entirely with you there. The Bible is supposed to reveal Yahweh. And, er, whatever happened to the Holy Spirit? I think in many ways, He’s been replaced with the Bible, yet the Bible tells us that the Spirit is the One who is going to lead us into all truth.
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I don’t blame folks, though, for substituting a person with a book. The Bible is a stable graspable thing, well, moreso than a Person of the Trinity who is compared to the wild and unpredictable WIND.
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Hey, Jenna, girl! An above comment by Jacob said it well: I think sola Scriptura has been almost completely replaced by solO Scriptura, which is the idea that each individual Believer translates/interprets the Bible for himself, all by himself. The other reasons I gave, and the article links I gave at the end kind of help to explain some of the mullings and some of the possible answers…as for having
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As a Lutheran, this post may be irrelevant to you, in the sense that your church interprets the Scriptures for you in many ways, which is exactly what I was saying is grossly missing in my world and my Protestant experience. The point is, at some point the/a Church must interpret for the group, because the Bible simply *isn’t* clear all by itself (it’s not written like a Honda manual, you know, otherwise we wouldn’t have so many disagreements on what it *clearly* says).
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So at some point, there has to be an authority structure that steps in and says, “These are the basic beliefs that we believe the Bible supports.” And then where that gets tricky is in trying to figure out which particular group claiming authority actually HAS authority. LOL…
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Nathan, I LOVE that GK quote and I remember reading that last time I went through that book. Well said. It seems that version of sola scriptura is less an enshrinment of the Bible and more so an enshrinement of the “enlightened” mind. Modernity blessed this view of the mind, but I don’t think Postmodernity will be so gracious, and probably rightly so.
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Acceptance-With-Joy (my favorite flower in Hind’s Feet, might I add), I guess I need to read that article!
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Jacob, I should read that book, it sounds like, because when I was reading the Wiki article that’s exactly what I was thinking: that 99% of the time, what I’ve been taught *and* taught others is solO scriptura. On your other comments…yes, yes, and yes, but I feel like I’m so over my head when I wade into that stuff…I’ve read some here and there, but it’s so overwhelming.
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Marcia, you *would* catch that. No, entirely accidental, but funny…
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Renee, WHOOPS! I had the best of intentions!!! I drove up with my mom, and we talked nonstop the entire time and…I completely forgot. I am a LOSER FRIEND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *self-flagellates*
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Also, Jacob, I agree with your assessment of the article quote (provided it’s in context, obviously, as you said). That’s what I have been taught: just come at it with an unprejudiced mind, and you will see the truth. But, uh, who has an unprejudiced mind? (Can the same people who quote Romans 3 with gusto be the very same ones who promote the tabula rasa Scriptural interpretation view?).
And can these groups really be for real, all the ones who say, “If you come at it with an unprejudiced mind, you WILL conclude it’s saying exactly what, well, WE say it is.” I know it’s usually well-intentioned, but it’s also incredibly pompous and nieve. I’m agreed with those who say there IS truth, I’m just struggling with the idea of how it’s found and how we find it. I don’t trust my mind anymore. I’m frustrated with myself, in that sense, in the sense that I’m fallible and thought I somehow wasn’t. I’m not sure where to go from here though.
Posted by Jenna on November 30, 2007 at 12:47 pm
I hear what you are saying about cutting out the Holy Spirit. Do you think that some of that is because so many people not sensitive to what is from the Holy Spirit, and what might be from evil influence? As far as I am aware, the only way that we have of testing the spirits is to gauge them against the Bible. I would like to think that I would be impervious to the machinations of the evil one, but I’m honest enough to know that all that I “hear” may not always be good and righteous. Does that make sense? I think that because Christians on a whole are not as well versed on the Holy Spirit, generally speaking, many are comforted by taking the convictions and lessons of Spirit directly to the Bible as a way to verify their truth. It’s that whole God-not-contradicting-himself kind of thing.
Posted by Lindsey @ enjoythejourney on November 30, 2007 at 1:20 pm
I’m reading a great book called “Catholicand Christian” by Alan Schreck. In it there is a whole chapter about “sola scriptura” and how the RCC has a position of tradition intertwined with the Bible.
In the book Schreck says this:
“…the Bible is the inspired Word of God and the book of the church. It is the product of oral and written traditions that were handed on within the church, and each writing in the Bible was discerned by the church’s Bishops to be uniquely inspired by the Holy Spirit and to have irrefutable authority within the Church…..
It is clear therefore hat sacred tradition, sacred scripture, adn the teaching authority of the church, in accord with God’s most wise design, are so linked and oined together that one cannot stand without the others, and that ALL together and each in its own way under the action of the Holy Spirit contribute effectively to the salvation of souls.”
Now…I realize this is a CATHOLIC perspective and not one from the protestant camp shouting “sola scrpitura!” from the top of their lungs.
But it is an excellent point to ponder.
Personally, my brain is hard-wired to incorporate TRADITION in my worship. Sadly, many evangelical churches (not mainstream protestant) are so void of anything traditionalist, that it seems like we’re constantly throwing tradition to the wind. In my former church, I felt like I was attending one big long Pep Rally for Jesus, Sunday after Sunday, and we flew by the seat of our pants, making it up as we went along.
Yes, I’m leaning towards crossing the Tiber, which many around me are none to happy to hear about. In the end, I *NEED* some sacred tradition in my life and in my faith journey.
Posted by Lindsey @ enjoythejourney on November 30, 2007 at 1:21 pm
sorry for all the typos and grammar errors above, I was in a pinch for time and had bickering 3 & 4 year olds in the room!
Posted by Paul on November 30, 2007 at 2:22 pm
yes it is a good point Molls – where and how do do we place tradition, Holy Spirit, church history, rationality etc alongside the bible.
Clearly we are always interpreting the bible through one lens or another – and most often is it not the lens of what we have been taught to read/focus on/look for?
Then again this particular sola was in part redressing the balance about over relying on the authority of the church so perhaps we are now in a place/time to swing back the other way a bit more – to view scripture through traditions/history/reason/inspiration of our faith.
I also wonder how sola scripture would look/feel if held it tension with the four other solas…
sola fide (faith)
sola gratia (grace)
solus christus (christ)
soli deo gloria (glory to God)
I find it very interesting to contrast a calvinistic view http://www.reformationtheology.com/2006/10/the_reformation_has_the_holy_s.php
with a roman catholic one
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12495a.htm
maybe the balance is somewhere in between?
Posted by Paul on November 30, 2007 at 2:23 pm
i might just have been set to spam purgatory
[Edit by Molly to say, I just rescued your (above) post from the flames, brother].
Posted by Jenna on November 30, 2007 at 2:30 pm
I was just reading on tradition today, myself.
I have no problem at all with various church traditions so long as they do not become intertwined with salvation, nor forced on others. There is a lot of good to be said about tradition, and the grounding effect that it has on people. The church that I attend keeps with the liturgical calendar, and we keep many “high mass” traditions, and some that are much our own making (congregation). I hear a lot from various Christians that they would like to have more structure and/or tradition within their churches. It makes me wonder if this modern incarnation of “protestantism” is sometimes causing a bit of a void for some Christians.
However, that being said, I absolutely refuse to alot the same level of authority to man-made traditions as I do the word of God. That is saying a lot, since my husband used to be Roman Catholic. lol
Posted by Peter Kirk on November 30, 2007 at 2:57 pm
Molly, there is a lot of bathwater to throw out in how various denominations and non-denominations interpret the Bible in the light of their traditions, whether they claim to follow Sola Scripture (Protestants) or not (Orthodox, Catholics). Your bath, all our baths, certainly needs a clean. But don’t throw out with it the baby, that relatively small deposit of certain truth behind it, the basics of the gospel.
Posted by molleth on November 30, 2007 at 3:08 pm
Agreed, Peter, and I am not. To me, the Nicene Creed sums up the essentials of the faith, ones that I can’t deny unless I wish to depart being a Christian. Which…I don’t. I can’t deny Jesus, because I’ve “met” Him (on whatever level that is where one meets Him), so that’s a nonnegotiable for me. Where I am currently floundering is in the realm of Protestantism where I’m forced to select from over 250 denominations and who knows how many countless “non” denominations as to which one is rightly interpreting what Scripture says. I hesisate crossing the Tiber (yo, Lindsey! lol) though I spent a good year reading and reading and reading about that option…in the end, while I found myself pursuadable on many subjects that I’d formerly been opposed to, to me the RC Gospel was too works-oriented for me to be fully comfortable saying it’s compatible with what I see in Galatians, etc. But on the other side, I can’t argue with many of the other traditions, not to mention can’t argue with the fact that the way the early church looked is almost a whole ‘nother animal compared to how we look today (as evangelicals), which makes me wonder…
As I see it, my options are emergent or Orthodox. Maybe I’m wrong, but in working through the logical processes involved in rejecting the Protestant framework I grew up under, those are the two options left. Last year I had a wonderful time exploring the emerging movement. This year, I want to give equal time to Orthodoxy. (Watch, in the end, I’ll probably dump both and become Presbyterian). LOL… I don’t know…I’m just enjoying the wondering, wrestling, and meditating.
Posted by jacob on November 30, 2007 at 3:45 pm
Molly said:
You can’t do that until you first read this.
Posted by Lindsey @ enjoythejourney on November 30, 2007 at 3:51 pm
Truthfully, Molleth, I can’t find any “one” church that fits me. I cannot swollow all facets of the RCC, thus my hesitation in conversion. I’m only exploring conversion right now.
In the end, I can’t find a church that fits me. (selfish sounding, I know…) I crave Bible-teaching, I crave tradition. I like contemporary worship, but I also like old fashioned reverence for God, like the days when we wore our “Sunday Best”.
Maybe this is why I haven’t been active in any fellowship for some time now.
Sigh.
Posted by molleth on November 30, 2007 at 3:58 pm
Jacob, we have that and I’ve read it (and Grudem’s Systematic Theology), and, no, I can’t become a Presbyterian (or any other sort of 5 point Calvinist) due to serious personal [and I believe Biblical, though that's just my opinion] problems with a couple of the 5 points. It was more of a joke…me saying, “Don’t take my questioning too seriously…because who knows where it will all end up.”
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Lindsey,
Yeah. I’m quite a big jumbled mess right now, not helped by the fact that I can’t even put most of my questions into words yet…
Posted by Keer on November 30, 2007 at 4:10 pm
My “problem” with sola scriptura is that *usually* the people who tout it the most are the ones who are quickest to whip out some sort of quote from some sermon (of some pastor who is *explaining* something) or some catechism or something like that.
Posted by molleth on November 30, 2007 at 4:20 pm
Exactly. It’s not really sola scriptura, ever. We are still going after a Pope, only ours might be John McArthur or John Calvin instead of John Paul, etc.
Posted by molleth on November 30, 2007 at 6:42 pm
Here is a link from the Orthodox Wiki on the Orthodox position on the Scriptures. I really liked it:
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Holy_Scripture
Posted by Mike Aubrey on November 30, 2007 at 7:17 pm
Molly, have you ever read The Orthodox Way?
You make some good points. The whole mess is rather frustrating. It seems as if its getting harder and harder these days to “fit” into any specific denomination.
Posted by molleth on November 30, 2007 at 9:11 pm
No, Mike, but too many people have suggested I read it, so it looks like I’d better do it already.
Posted by SB on December 1, 2007 at 3:36 am
What are you going to do about the Orthodox exclusion of women from the priesthood? Or is that not a problem for you?
Posted by Bryan Riley on December 1, 2007 at 4:11 am
I don’t disagree with you and have written a lot in the past about how God still speaks today, how we’ve replaced the Holy Spirit with good hermeneutics, and how we don’t trust in the Lord and lean on our own understanding, but I also know that if I am not regularly eating from the Book my relationship with the Father grows colder. There definitely is something about the scripture. And it also help me hear more clearly God’s voice.
I just don’t really understand it!
Posted by sue on December 1, 2007 at 10:33 am
Great thoughts from everyone! In my old tradition, scripture was interpreted by the pastor and/or the footnotes in the NIV study bible. With every new pastor,the interpretations were tweaked depending on where he wanted to lead the congregation.Looking back,it scares me that I stayed for so long. Discovering the Early Church Fathers was a huge turning point. My ‘church’ history went from the apostles directly to the Reformation and then skipped to the 1890’s. I still have questions about the Catholic Church and have Protestant ‘flareups’ every now and then, but I will never find a church I’m 100% in agreement with.(Unless I start my own!)
Posted by molleth on December 1, 2007 at 10:38 am
Bryan, I know… I don’t either (get it), but I wouldn’t want to give up the Bible at ALL!
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SB, from what I’ve been told/read thus far, the Orthodox only exclude women from the priesthood, and the reason is simply that the priest represents a “father” so it can’t be a woman doing it. I don’t mind that reason. *shrugs* Women have freedom everywhere else. A woman can preach the sermon, a woman can lead the singing, whatever.
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Sue, pretty much me, too. Church History was rather blurry inbetween Acts and the Reformation, when I was growing up. What kind of weirds me out is how DIFFERENT the early church seems to be from what I’ve known as an evangelical.
Posted by Paul Johnston on December 1, 2007 at 11:45 am
Hi Molly,
I’m Paul Johnston, a first time commentor.(followed you here, through Ryan Dueck’s blog)
If I get out of hand, I wholeheartedly support the idea of blaming Ryan.
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While the traditions of my Catholic faith are comforting and the presence of a magesterial authority provides stability, the primary reason I choose to remain RC is that through the Church, and the Sacraments, I encounter the real presence of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
We are meant to be conduits of God’s grace. To God’s glory and in the service of ourselves and others. Unless a Christian church is offering you an opportunity to encounter the real presence of God, the fullness of Christian potentials isn’t being realized.
In spite of the historical sinfullness of some of my church and it’s leadership and quite frankly in spite of my own sinfullness, leaving my Catholic faith isn’t now, or ever could be, an option.
Jesus is “in the building” Jesus is “in the Sacraments” Jesus is “in the rituals” and it is Him I go to worship, see and encounter.
In the end, that’s all that matters.
Posted by molleth on December 1, 2007 at 12:04 pm
Yes, I think it’s all Ryan’s fault too.

Interesting comments. I really can’t even “go there” experientially with my own response, since I’ve, indeed, never “been there.”
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But, speaking of the church fathers yet again, it appears the the real presence is something that the church has taught from its earliest writings. Trained to believe that the Lord’s Supper is 100% symbollic, I admittedly struggle with any other view, while at the same time equally admitting that there are some darn good arguments in opposition to the one I grew up with.
Posted by Kievas Fargo on December 1, 2007 at 2:49 pm
OK, I’m late to the party, but I enjoyed reading all the comments! I’ve been dealing with this issue for a while, too, and I don’t know if I have a definite conclusion. My position is that the Bible contains the word of God, but it was compiled, written, and edited by humans. Therefore, it’s subject to error, and cultural/political/social bias. I think if we accept it in that context–a guidebook rather than a legal document–it’s easier to read and follow.
Posted by Anne@Anne'sCafe on December 3, 2007 at 7:41 am
“Growing up, we described ourselves as a non-denominational church that simply followed the Bible. But when I left home, I learned that every other non-denominational church said the same thing, as well as all the demoninations. We all claimed we were teaching the clear plain truths of Scripture, so why, then, did we have so many different interpretations?”
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This was my experience EXACTLY!! And I’m having the same problem- who is right??? How do I know who to believe???? At this point I feel like I don’t trust ANY denomination or church after having been burned a couple of times.
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Again, great questions, Molly!
Posted by teachergirl on December 3, 2007 at 10:27 pm
Molly! I’m so glad to see you blogging again. Yay! I’ve read your blog for a long time now, but commented infrequently. So welcome back.
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This was an excellent post. I’ve questioned (am questioning) sola scriptura for some of the same reasons, like the plethora of denominations and interpretations. I’d never actually thought about whether the Bible actually says it is the final authority on matters of faith and practice. hmmmm, good food for thought.
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On looking to the church fathers and early Christianity, do you think they paint a purer picture of what the church is supposed to be than what we have now? I think it is good and important for us to have a solid grasp of Christian history, but I don’t necessarily think we should look to them as a kind of standard of faith/church practice. They had their issues too. In one of my western history courses we’ve talked a lot about how Christianity evolved as more and more cultures converted. The shape the church took in the 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th etc centuries was largely influenced by the culture of her converts. Ack, I don’t know what exactly I’m trying to say. I’ll have to think about it some more.
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By the way, I love the colors of your blog, and the banner. It’s very peaceful.
Posted by Rose on December 4, 2007 at 12:38 pm
Hi Molly!
I followed you over from your comments on the True Womanhood blog, and I’d love to drop you an email, but I didn’t see any links for that on your home page. Am I missing the obvious?
Anyway, this is a fascinating topic. My husband and I began reading about Orthodoxy last year, and I echo many of the comments here. What fascinates me about Orthodoxy is that it is NOT a rejection of any current doctrine (not protesting against the RC church, not disagreeing with a current denomination and forming your own to suit your specifications). I’d have a hard time with any teaching or movement that claimed to be the One True Way, especially if it was just recently discovered. =) The Orthodox Church is a church that has been flourishing for two thousand years. And, “converting” (I use quotes because I don’t think that really would involve changing one’s religion) to Orthodoxy wouldn’t involve a rejection of Protestantism, just a recognition that there’s MORE.
I’m still pondering over a lot of issues, because, like a good Baptist, I’ve long been taught to believe that infant baptism is wrong, that the wine and the bread are not literal, etc. One great book that I haven’t seen mentioned in the comments yet is Thirsting For God In A Land Of Shallow Wells, by Matthew Gallatin. Reading this book is what opened my eyes to the weakness of Sola Scriptura. There is so much in that book that I couldn’t possibly summarise here, but in one place he cites 2 Thess. 2:15:
“Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.”
Traditions are important. So is the written Word. The Pharisees had let the traditions of men (their own teachings) take precedence over the scriptures, and modern Protestantism tends to let the Word (or any given leader’s interpretation of it) take precedence over the traditions.
I know I’m not doing this topic justice, but the idea that we should be giving equal weight to the traditions of church authority, tested and tried through the years, was a pretty radical one to me.
I would highly recommend this book. It’s easy to understand, easy to read, but very deep.
Posted by molleth on December 4, 2007 at 12:59 pm
Thanks, Rose. Looks like I need to get ahold of that book! And a big fat yes on the fascination of Orthodoxy—I agree with everything you said.
Much in line with my same mullings…
Posted by molleth on December 4, 2007 at 1:03 pm
Jacob, I’ve been downloading a lot of the Ancient Faith podcasts onto my ipod. Really really interesting stuff and helping me get a much clearer picture of what the EO believes and practices. I’d not seen the Pilgrims from Paradise one, though—I’ll be sure to check that out. Thanks.
Posted by molleth on December 4, 2007 at 1:03 pm
(I have no idea why my comment just loaded before yours, Jacob, because I wrote it *after* I read yours)… WEIRD!
Posted by jacob on December 4, 2007 at 1:03 pm
Rose:
You can hear Matthew Gallatin (and other Orthodox speakers) via podcast/online at Ancient Faith Radio. His broadcasts are at “Pilgrims From Paradise.”
Posted by jacob on December 4, 2007 at 1:17 pm
Personally I found Gallatin’s book to be somewhat polemical, and not simply informative, and thought his chapter-after-chapter criticisms of his former beliefs might be a potential turn-off to some people. (He was at various times a fundamentalist and a Seventh-Day Adventist, as well as a Calvary Chapel (charismatic/evangelical) pastor for several years.) I admit to being in the minority on this, though, for many people like his book.
Posted by molleth on December 5, 2007 at 12:09 am
Interesting litle flurry spawned by this post.
http://powerscourt.blogspot.com/2007/12/grudem-puts-foh-before-calvin.html
Suzanne, link above, writes in response to the fact that this post about sola scriptura was featured on the Gender Blog, where it was unfortunately completely misunderstood…..but I do appreciate the heart of the writer—he emailed me in advance with a copy of the post asking for my feedback and everything—I can certainly learn lessons in graciousness from that man! That sort of behaviour makes me want to shout, “Praise God!!!!”, I kid you not.
Here’s the post as reviewed on the Gender Blog at CBMW: http://www.cbmw.org/Blog/Posts/Sola-Scriptura-is-Essential-to-Complementarians
Posted by Elijah J. McKnight on December 5, 2007 at 3:51 pm
Confronted for the first time with the complimentarian views, from leading members of my home church, I had no question of whether a woman should be a senior pastor or just any role of ministry. After all my denomination has always been known as a people of the Book, and whenever there is a doctrinal challenge, most Southern Baptists that I have encountered return to the Scriptures, or at least their understanding of the Scriptures. Here lies the great issue or problem that I have come to recognize: the interpretation of Scripture.
When coming to Indiana Wesleyan University, I have encountered a rather controversial thought for the first time: the possibility of women being called into the ministry and participating in all levels of ministry roles, including the senior pastor position. Now, I would like to say that this thought had originally brought discomfort to me, and I have felt that my comfort zones were being infiltrated by demonic doctrines. My first immediate thoughts when I encountered this thought were what are these wicked Wesleyans up to? Nevertheless, my attention had been directed to many women in ministry, such as Dr. Constance Cherry, an IWU professor and many other women in ministry, including Rev. Joy Butler, a pastor at a local church in Grant County, Indiana. I have also have read a few articles and chapters from books that addressed this issue.
After hearing lectures on this particular topic from Dr. Ken Schenk and Dr. David Smith, both IWU professors, this has helped me come to the conclusion that it might be a good idea to read Scripture in its original, historical context. The failure consider the historical context of Scripture, I believe is the greatest error that many Bible readers who desire to understand church doctrines and ideas yield themselves to. Many of those who fail to regard the original, historical context take a literal approach to Scripture. Others may approach Scripture with their pre-understandings of what the text means, and they are unwilling to have these understanding change or shifted into a better direction. Many Bible readers approach the Scriptures with their personal experiences and skewed reasoning as a means to interpret the text. Nevertheless, when used in its proper place, experience and reason has had its effect upon my view towards women in ministry.
Before my attention was directed to the idea of doing an exegesis on Scripture, I came to the conclusion that the idea of women being a pastor was an idea that clearly violated Scripture, and my reasoning for this was because elders and leaders in my church knew more about the Bible and it would be of insanity to challenge their interpretations. After coming to IWU and with the help of this class however, I had begun to look and remind myself to look at Scripture in a new light. After taking Dr. Smith’s Old Testament Survey class and Inductive Bible Study class, I learned and was reminded of one thing, even if I could not remember all that was taught: context is everything.
Dr. Smith also pointed out the importance of reading the Scripture as a whole. He noted that there was nothing spiritual about reading verses in isolation away from the other passages of Scripture. I know that when I isolated verses from all of the others ones, I began to develop a skewed conclusion about theological matters. It was not until I learned to actually read the books of the Bible as a whole that I could actually find the original meaning of the text. Reading the Scripture in its context has helped me try and understand the historical setting and audience. I was able to ask the questions, Who? What? Where? Why? and these questions help me better understand many of the controversial texts that seem to prove that women are not to be in all levels of ministry.
The Baptist tradition confirms the primacy of Scripture, and I have learned this with no doubt. I feel that many of those from this tradition, and even I myself at times, have allowed presuppositions to receive the priority in forming and shaping our thoughts, and we are unable to see the truth derived from the Scriptures, because we have set out to prove our own agenda. It was not before long a profound thought occurred to me: that I could be looking at Scripture in a wrong way and that God actually gives meaning to the text. I begun to realize that there are many sexists that may have possibly given their own meaning and I have bought into their brainwashing.
Upon entering The Role of Women in Ministry class at IWU, I had previously entertained the thought that women are indeed called to ministry, and who is to stand in the way of people who have the call of God on their lives and have the church to confirm the call? Before entering this particular class, I had made a decision that I would continue, even after I leave this class to do research upon the idea of women being called into all levels of ministry.
One of the great things that interested me in this class was this idea that God has no gender, and many people view him as male. Of course Jesus was a man and in the Trinity we find God being referred to as “Father and Son,” rather than “Mother and Daughter.” This idea, however, should in no wise render any disvalue on the female gender in humanity. Furthermore, my greatest desire, when reaching people with the gospel message is to expose them to the pre-Fall Genesis account of creation. What was God’s original plan for us, for men and women? In Genesis, Dr. Cherry pointed out that both genders were needed to portray the image of God. Perhaps, that is the best place to start: were God ended His creation and everything was very good.
Genesis tells us that woman was created to be man’s helper. This strong language of being his “helper” really convinced me all the more about gender equality. Dr. Cherry led a discussion in class one particular day that really enlightened my thinking on the whole idea of created order. Could only leadership positions be preserved for men, because they were created first? If this argument is true, instead of eating bacon for breakfast, I suggest that we start ordaining pigs into the ministry.
Dr. Cherry also introduced or reminded us that there were many leaders even in the patriarchal world of the Old Testament. These women were greatly accepted as God’s handmaidens, ordained for his use. Sadly, Dr. Cherry pointed out in another lecture, we can find throughout history that there are groups that view women as being inferior to men. The Greeks for example, have believed that women have two main purposes: producing children and providing sexual favors. Upon hearing this and reading books for the class, I have grown greatly disturbed with the way that women have been and are still being treated. Just as many arose to fight for African Americans’ rights, I feel a need that someone fights for a woman’s kingdom rights.
Reasoning does have its place indeed, and I would have to say that I have a perfectly good reason to support the idea that women are called into all levels of ministry. My conscience persuades me of this, and what is very interesting of this is that the idea of “respecting the individual conscience” plays a major role in what creates a distinction between the Baptist denominations than any other denomination. Man cannot come between another man and his conscience. The only problem with this is that the matters in the conscience must line up with the true, hermeneutical teachings of Scripture.
Thus, I have seen much evidence in Scripture with the aid of thoroughly and careful, scholarly work that have provided proof for me to stay true to my conscience. The same words that came from Martin Luther echo my same thoughts in regard to my position on women in ministry: “Unless I am convinced by Scripture and by plain reason…my conscience is captive to the word of God. To go against conscience is neither right nor safe. I cannot and I will not recant. Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me.”
Looking at Tradition, Dr. Cherry pointed out that in the medieval period we find that women took a major role in the ministry. Sadly, however counsels began to meet and those who were members of it were educated people who began to shape skewed ideas of the role of women in ministry. In the Wesleyan revivalist period, we can discover that women were provided with an opportunity to express their calling in different roles.
These types of revivals seem to indicate to me that we are gaining a foretaste of what the kingdom will be like when it full is realized. I agree with Dr. Schenk’s thoughts in one of his articles when he talks about the “Kingdom Trajectory.” If we know what the kingdom will be like, should we not attempt to move closer to it? Dr. Schenk also talked about the age of the Spirit and how women and men, both would be actively involved in ministry. I would have to say that opposing women in ministry from this perspective is just not “kingdom.”
Dr. Schenk has also noted some of the “bad” reasons that people are against women in ministry today are the husband headship idea and the deceivability of Eve. I believe that Dr. Smith and Dr. Schenk did an exceptionally well job at explaining these issues and how the views have been skewed. Starting in the pre-Fall account in Genesis, I believe is the most important and crucial part of leading someone to a paradigm shift. Furthermore, I have learned that it is God who has created gender, and therefore in his divine nature he is not distinguishable as male or female.
I am convinced that God calls women into the ministry and what ever role that calling may lead them into, that is for God to direct, the church to confirm, and for me to encourage and support the move of God. I refuse to back away from my denomination, because many oppose the idea that women are called into ministry. Why not move to another denomination where my beliefs are accepted as the denominational doctrines? God may use me as an instrument of confirmation and encouragement to women who need strengthened to continue to carry out God’s will for their lives.
Moreover, I also find that it is important to preserve the unity of the church. We can find in Scripture that a unified church is what Christ has in mind; I will not intentionally tare down or cause a schism in the church. I want to build up the kingdom of God, and as God permits me, I would seek to inform members of my denomination and others who greatly oppose my position, and I will do it in love.
One thing of importance that I learned from listening to a cassette of Nancy Beach, who spoke with Bill Hybels, is that I will not open my mouth and start teaching or preaching anything, unless I know for certainty that it is the truth. I will study the Scriptures and continue to do research to find out what the Scriptures really have to say about women in ministry. I will attribute my attention to highly credible scholars and what they have to say about this issue. I believe that it is one issue worth fighting for, because the Church cannot fully be the church on this earth, if in fact many of its members are being rejected to express their God-given gifts and call.
Posted by Marcia on December 5, 2007 at 5:15 pm
Wow, Elijah, awesome post.
And Molls, you’re getting quite famous.
Posted by molleth on December 5, 2007 at 5:26 pm
INfamous is the more accurate word. *grins*
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Elijah, that was so good I had to steal it and put it in a post. THANKS for taking the time to type all of that.
Posted by Greg Anderson on December 6, 2007 at 9:20 am
Good posts all. Here’s the thing. There are always gonna be those who can’t stand freedom of conscience in any shape or form cuz’ it threatens their power, prestige, and position. Scripture only? Well and good, I believe in inerrancy too, I just refuse to believe that we have inerrant interpretations from an ecclesiastical hierarchy, whether they come from the Holy See in Rome, or from the clergy at CBMW. So don’t feel alone Molly, they have more than just you to gather cord wood and pitch for.
Posted by molleth on December 6, 2007 at 10:58 am
Scripture only? Well and good, I believe in inerrancy too, I just refuse to believe that we have inerrant interpretations from an ecclesiastical hierarchy, whether they come from the Holy See in Rome, or from the clergy at CBMW.
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I would trust a longstanding body of leaders like Rome more than I would trust a brand new group with an obvious agenda about male/female interactions and definitions. *shrugs*
Posted by Greg Anderson on December 6, 2007 at 2:28 pm
Trust? One of the most brutal despotisms that has ever existed on God’s green earth? Surely your statement has proviso(s). And as far as CBMW is concerned, it was their ecclesiastical forbears who ran Anne Hutchinson out of Massachusetts and hanged her pupil Mary Dyer.
Posted by molleth on December 6, 2007 at 3:37 pm
Uh…them might be fightin’ words for some commenters here, mister!
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And, sure, I would prefer to choose neither, however if there were *only* two options, I’d pick Rome hands-down and then some.
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See, at least I admit my bias freely.
Posted by Gentle Wisdom » Complementarianism: Sola Scriptura or Sola Traditio? on December 6, 2007 at 3:47 pm
[...] a series of posts on the CBMW blog in which David Kotter, Executive Director of CBMW, responds to my blogger friend Molly Aley. See also the discussion here, and Molly’s response to the series (which includes an [...]
Posted by molleth on December 6, 2007 at 8:34 pm
Peter, that was a very insightful post. Thanks.
Posted by Atlantic on December 7, 2007 at 1:24 pm
Fightin’ words?
More like tea-snortin’-at-the-monitor words.
Posted by molleth on December 7, 2007 at 1:40 pm
BAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAA…
Posted by Mrs. Taft on December 11, 2007 at 10:52 pm
So late to the discussion
But I have to wonder…what if there isn’t any one, specific way to worship God? I mean, I come from a charismatic/protestant background. I don’t hold some of the same doctrines as other denominations do. So what? Is it possible that an infinite God does not wish to be boxed in by any particular flavor of interpretation? It seems that there are basic things all of Christianity agrees on, and the things that we disagree on are not necessary nor central to the gospel. I would no more claim that people who follow a Catholic path are going to hell then people who are fundamentalist patriarchy types. God knows, not me. But He has led me and my family to a particular place, a particular time, a particular church, and some particular doctrine. Why does it have to be a question of who is right or who is MORE right? What if we’re both right? Hard for our minds to grasp, I know. But there are so many facets and aspects of God, I think it is humanly impossible to get it perfect. Partly because we are imperfect beings, so even if Scripture is flawless, we are not. Partly because we come from different places…whether it be culture, experiences, or whatever else. My personality is different than yours. My dear friend is drawn to Orthodoxy because she craves tradition and her spirit is fed by the way she is able to relate to God. I am violently not drawn that way, but drawn toward a free expression of the Spirit and the grace and freedom of God. Must I box myself into tradition, or is it possible that God has allowed a way for me relate to Him, in the way that He has created me to relate?
I suppose this is rambly and doesn’t make sense, but frankly, I don’t think that it should be a question of who or what is ultimately right–because I don’t think there is an answer to that question apart from God. And how we get there may be different, and I happen to think He is very okay with that.
Posted by sue on December 12, 2007 at 7:39 am
In the Old Testament,God spelled out exactly how he wanted to be worshiped.He gave the Israelites the specifications of tabernacle right down to the color and material of the curtains.He told them exactly what offerings were to be given and when they were to be given. It’s hard for me to make that assumption that now, any way we worship is fine. Although I believe we have freedom to worship him at home any way our hearts led us, I believe when we meet as a body of believers, we were given a structure (liturgy) to follow as our pattern of worship. Of course I am one of those people who love tradition. Wish there was an Orthodox church closer than 80 miles. I would LOVE to go to one of there services!!
Posted by Mrs. Taft on December 13, 2007 at 9:39 pm
Sue: There is a structure spelled out in the scriptures, that’s for sure, but it isn’t one that is like the OT one, down to the colors of the fabrics etc. We are given a more basic premise that leaves a lot of freedom. I don’t find the liturgy of high church to be any more scriptural than the more relaxed nature of my background.
Which was kind of my point.
Posted by The Bible and Evangelical Papal Authority (”My Interpretation!” “No, Mine!”) « adventures in mercy on December 22, 2007 at 8:29 pm
[...] posted my growing issues with Sola Scriptura before (here, recently). Reading Barbara Curtis and her journey toward Roman Catholicism profoundly [...]
Posted by Headachehealer on January 20, 2008 at 9:50 am
Studying the bible in a scientific manner will only frustrate because God has hidden things from the wise and the foolish. God can reveal things to a 10 year old which could never be known to a thousand theologians.
Posted by Passing it on - sort of (?) « (Almost) Without Footnotes on March 8, 2008 at 12:15 pm
[...] behind biblical patriarchy and rewriting theology in the process. As an example of a great post: My Disassembling Protestantism: Sola Scriptura, in which she explains why she has problems with this basic Protestant principle, or The Truth and [...]
Posted by Complementarianism: Sola Scriptura or Sola Traditio? « Complegalitarian on November 30, 2008 at 3:10 pm
[...] his three part series “Sola Scriptura is Essential to Complementarians” in response to Molly, mentioned here: part 1; part 2; part [...]