Once upon a time, I believed that spanking was wholly Biblical—a command, if you will. In fact, I think my first cyber-debate waaaay back when I joined my first forum at 23 (so amazed and delighted that there were online places where people could actually discuss issues!) was on the topic of spanking.
I doubt I handled it with any sense of maturity, because I remember being FLOORED that anyone would suggest that spanking wasn’t a command, to the point that I questioned whether or not the person could even be saved (with a line of reasoning that goes something like, “Hey, if you don’t take the Bible seriously in Proverbs, you must not be able to take it seriously anywhere else, either.”). Here is a link that sums up my former thoughts well.
I don’t have time to go through all the Proverbs today, but let’s look at one popular one (mentioned here in the same way that I used to view it):
He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes. Prov. 13:24
This was one of the verses I viewed as a command—proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that spanking is Biblically required. Too bad for the former me, because I’d be on the other side of the debate now, with questions such as,
“Is the author giving us a command, or is the author giving us a general principle? If it is a literal command, does the author really want us to take a shepherd’s club to our kids? If we’re supposed to be taking this literally, then, er, where in the Bible does it specify that it doesn’t mean a literal club to a back but rather a small spanking instrument to be used on the nether parts like all the conservative parenting books say? And, if it’s not clearly spelled out in the Bible, why do so many Christian parenting books lay out the godly steps for ”Biblically” spanking our children, even though they’re not IN the Bible?” (Great article on that here).
If the author isn’t giving us a command, is it fair to say that he may be giving us a general God-breathed principle, a lot like the other proverbs—a piece of wisdom cleverly wrapped up in two simple and poetic lines (something I’ve yet to master).
Just a few verses prior, we are told that, “Poverty and shame [shall be to] him that refuseth instruction: but he that regardeth reproof shall be honoured.” Is this a command? Is it a promise? If it is a promise, then why is it that sometimes the righteous are poor and shamed by their country (think of the underground Church in China, for example), while fools who despise instruction often ride around in Hollywood limosines?
It can’t be a promise, because even God’s word admits that sometimes fools have great lives and that humble righteous folks get a lousy one. So would we be correct to say that Proverbs gives us general principles, wise sayings worth tucking in the memory, truths that are usually evident in daily life, truths that we can apply in our lives, not as commands or decrees, but as gifts to help us walk circumspectly, to walk with wisdom?
And I think most of us agree that it is sadly evident, in real life, to tell between the children who’ve had parents invest in them versus children who’ve been left to themselves. Parents who are unwilling to help move their kids into better ways of thinking and behaving are loving themselves more than they love their kids.
We’ve all known the parent who has cringed at the thought of their kid experiencing anything bad, so rushes to intervene anytime the kid has to face a hardship or a negative consequence. The child is usually either spoiled and miserable to be around, or helplessly helpless and dependant on the savior-parent. And why does the parent rush to save? Because the parent doesn’t love the child like the parent should. The parent rushes to save the kid becuase of the way the child’s pain makes the parent feel. It’s about the parents feelings, not the child’s growth. Proverbs 13:24 helps us see that this way of parenting is not wise.
But conversely, and despite what many Christian parenting books would like to say, the proverb isn’t talking about how God wants us to spank our kids whenever they fail to perform properly. It’s not talking about beating our kids with a big shepherding staff, either.
I would say that the proverb is talking about whether or not we love our kids enough to walk through the hard things with them, as well as the pleasant things. Do we take the time to relate with them, to shepherd them, to instruct them even when it’s painful, when it’s not very fun, when it would be a lot easier if I just zoned out on the internet all day ignored them, even when I can think of a million other things I’d rather be doing. It’s fun to cuddle a cooing baby. It’s not so fun to get stuck with the baby who gets his days and nights mixed up. It’s fun to wrestle the giggling preschooler. It’s not so fun to deal with the four year old who just discovered the fine art of lifting his big sister’s precious items and sneaking them back to his secret stash. Loving our kids means we’re there for them when it’s fun to relate with them…and when it’s not fun, when its time to work through problems, when its time to confront unacceptable behaviour.
But disciplining omy children does not even have to mean punishing them. Disciplining means training, teaching a disciple. My current two year old throws fits sometimes. Sometimes we all just look at him funny and move on with life. Sometimes I move him to his bed, so he can pitch his fit in private (hey, you can feel sad, but you can’t ruin everyone else’s day over it), because there’s too much going on in a family of seven for much else. Sometimes I can tell he needs some help working through the fit, so I hold him until he’s done.
When I was a new mom, I was shocked that my first kid dared to throw a fit. It didn’t help that the books on parenting I read said that her fit was a sign that she was trying to overthrow my authority, and that I ”must win the battle” or potentially lose her soul forever.
Some of you are thinking I’m exaggerating. Those of you who have the (popular!) books I had know that I’m not. Her outward obedience was turned into a struggle of heaven and hell. Thankfully, she was a naturally compliant child and still is pretty easy going to this day—I shudder to think what might have happened if my fourth child (”intense” is not a strong enough word for him!) was my first.
Today, I look at the above Proverb and see the Holy Spirit telling me, “Get off your butt, Molly.” I need this. Sometimes I get so overwhelmed with my life that I want to disengage. I’m glad the Spirit tells me to come join in, to come and love. But I don’t think He means I need to walk around with a stick looking for chances to whop anyone who’s not performing correctly. That doesn’t sound like an environment conduscive to growth—that sounds more like a Soviet Concentration Camp to me.
God doesn’t Father me like that. He’s loving, loving enough to point out things even when it makes me hurt, but the main way I experience His love is through the warm embrace of me, even in the face of my failures. I’m sure many of you have had similar experiences—sure that He’s coming with a stick, and knowing we deserve it, but He comes instead with gentleness, with compassion, surprises us with His kindness and longsuffering and in response, we melt in relief.
The stick would have made me try harder not to screw up, motivated by fear. The grace, though, does what a stick never could. His grace makes the hard parts of my heart melt. His grace makes me that much more determined to abide in Him, out of love instead of fear. His grace makes me want to keep on going forward, keep on pressing, keep on trying, because I am learning to delight in Him, to trust Him. I guess you could say that following Him makes my melted heart feel joy.
That’s the weird thing, because punishment does work. You’d have to be an idiot to say that punishment wasn’t an effective motivator, because it is, and that’s one of the reasons we humans love it so. Punishment also feels good (when you’re dishing it out, that is). There’s something to be said for “making someone pay,” a tit-for-tat human response written into our bones, the thing that makes us pack picnic baskets for public hangings, that makes us glad when criminals get locked behind bars for the rest of their life, that makes us smile when bad people have bad things happen to them. Punishment is effective in many ways.
But Love works, too. Love works better, actually. Punishment can change the outward performance, whereas Love has power to reach the inmost parts, affecting both outward and inward at the same time. Punishment creates a climate of fear and tension—picture cold white prison walls, picture hopelessness. Love creates an environment of growth, a verdant garden of rich brown loam that welcomes seedlings and nurtures them to full potential. When I think of what I want for my children, the dirt beats out the clean white prison walls, hands down.
Learning to parent more in God’s style [and less in the style of the (%$#) books!] has been a life-saver for me. It’s not about the outward performance. My kid isn’t going to hell if he throws a fit at two, and it’s not a reflection on my parenting, either.
More than anything else, I see my children so differently than I used to. The same things happen, it’s just that my eyes are different. The two year old throwing the fit doesn’t look like “he needs a swat” and a firm reprimand. He doesn’t look like he’s throwing a fit “just to challenge my authority,” or just because he’s in the mood to tick me off (as if it’s all about me—now who’s being the true toddler in that situation?).
No, he looks like he’s got a two year old brain and is having trouble processing the fact that his mom won’t turn on a movie for him when he really wants one. He can’t understand that sitting in front of a screen will rot his brain—all he can understand is that he wants “Woody and Buzz” and Mom is refusing him joy. He’s two, his emotions are raw, and he’s letting them out.
I don’t see a kid that is trying to overthrow Mom. I see a kid who is sad, who’s upset at a world where he can’t be king, a kid who is mourning the loss of the movie he wants so badly, a kid who looks like he needs a hug on mom’s lap.
The funny thing is, the swat and the reprimand never really stopped the fits. I’ve had five toddlers now, I oughta know. The hug and the minute of snuggling on the couch together does, every single time. He still doesn’t get the movie he wanted, but he sobbed it out in my arms and it’s okay now. He gets up and pads off to his next great adventure, happy, secure, his eyes bright and twinkling even as traces of still-drying tears jiggle on the edges.
He feels good. I feel good. We just reconnected in that quiet moment on the couch. I am a safe place for him. I get off the couch and get back to the dishes, grinning at how happy-go-lucky he is now, when only a moment earlier acted like he was being tortured to death. The crisis is over, the storm moved on, and we solved it together.
We’re not pitted against eachother—there is no battle of the wills, where I must be ever on gaurd from this evil two year old tyrant who wants to take me down. He’s just a little two year old who’s learning the ropes of life, severely handicapped by a two year old brain incapable of adult level reasoning or why we only watch movie’s at certain times, not to mention a two year old body incapable of performing most basic functions, including running without tripping on his face.
There’s a lot going on in that little person’s world. I’m bigger. I have the power. This is a lot of responsibility! It’s up to me how I use it—-for him, or for me. Jesus talked about those who have power, about what they should do with it. Something about being the servant of all…
Seems to me that’s what Proverbs 13:24 is saying, that if I love the little squirt, I’ll put down what I’m doing when he needs me, that I’ll use my power to guide him, just like the shepherd gets up off the grass and guides his sheep back in when they start wandering out of his sight. He’s not beating them, he’s guiding them. I’m guiding my kid when I say,
“Sorry, little dude, no movie. But come here—come sit with Mommy.”
I put down my dishes and my plans for the moment and I make the time to sit and comfort a kid who’s learning that life doesn’t always give him what he wants. We’re on the same team, he and I, and I like it so much better this way.

















Posted by jettybetty on December 15, 2007 at 5:43 am
I think you are right on–our responsibility is to mold lives as parents–spanking would rarely fall into molding, IMHO. Too bad the Proverbs scripture has been taken as a command by so many.
Posted by Elizabeth on December 15, 2007 at 6:36 am
Wow, much food for thought. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this, Molly! I think this will resonate and hit home with many parents.
Posted by Barb on December 15, 2007 at 7:13 am
Thanks Molly. I especially appreciate your insight in the rod passage – to look at our role as the shepherd, crooking our children back in loving discipline. A shepherd doesn’t beat his sheep over the back to lure them back into the fold.
I am so wary of books or methods that say, “the Biblical way, the Biblical model.” Now I believe wholly in scripture but I also believe it is not solely a life manual – telling us how to eat, drink, make houses, raise children, sew clothes, etc. It seems anyone can justify their lifestyle, routine or philosophy biblically. When someone says, “I do it this way because the Bible does too.” I say, “Ah, that was right for 4th century b.c. jews and I live in 21st century U.S. Yes, yes, some things are black and white but much of life is covered by the grace and mercy in the overarching Bible story – God’s redemptive love for humanity. Does that make sense and am I now a heretic in your eyes?
Posted by tonia on December 15, 2007 at 7:42 am
absolutely beautiful, Molly. Fantastic post – the kind that can totally revolutionize someone’s parenting. Good job.
Posted by Cally Tyrol on December 15, 2007 at 8:19 am
Molly, I’ve been around to see your transformation from die-hard spanker to grace-based parent. Remember the boycott of The Old Schoolhouse? I just wanted to say that I appreciate your struggle so much and I am so blessed to read your story. I struggle sometimes because I think “wow, it would be so much easier if I just spanked”… but then again, I wouldn’t actually get to wrestle in the trenches with what’s really going on with my kids. Sure, spanking is a swift and immediate punishment, but it doesn’t get to the heart of the matter.
I could go on and on… suffice it to say that I am so glad you shared your story and your thoughts on this. You’ve come a long way (about a lot of things) and I am grateful to you for sharing yourself with us. I learn a lot from you.
Posted by Ruth on December 15, 2007 at 10:25 am
Molly,
I appreciate your writing, and have been lurking ever since the AR retreat last year (I was there with baby in Ergo). My question about child training/no-spank-um -> What about teaching my little ones to come when I call them, to be quiet at the right time, about outright defiance shouting “NO!” in my face, about knowing exactly what I’m asking them to do and refusing? (my little ones are 3.5 yrs and 21 months) There’s all those “practical” situations. Yes, and times like your example with the movie, I don’t spank but talk, but at other times (for example right now I have a little girl on my lap begging and begging to play Elmo on the computer and not being very content with the answer “when I’m done”) sitting and talking and cuddling, well, that just doesn’t seem to be the right answer. All very vague….. Okay, another example – I was in Sam’s Club a few weeks ago with my sil and her son, my daughter kept making noises that annoyed him, so I made her get out of the cart where she was sitting with him and walk with me. Continued whining “I want to ride with A!!” we stopped several times to talk, I prayed with her, no change in attitude or behavior. Gosh, she made me look bad! =) Oh, and I linked to your blog from mine, hope that’s okay, I want other people that might read mine (that’s not very many…) to read ideas outside of the evangelical box from someone who loves Jesus. All right, long comment, but I’ll probably ask you more questions on other posts if you don’t mind. -Ruth
Posted by molleth on December 15, 2007 at 10:29 am
Cally, Thanks. I remember…LOL… I am not anti-spanking…I am really not sure where I’m at, but I’m in full agreement with you that spanking is often the easiest thing to do, but rarely the most productive. It’s funny, because in most of hte parenting books, you are told that one either spanks (and therefore has obedient kids) or you don’t spank (and the kids get away with murder). But in actuality, there IS a way that you can have kids who know how to obey without spanking them all the time…
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Tonia,
Your conversations were a major catalyst, and you know it.
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Dear Heretic Barb, (lol)
Yeah, it’s so weird…we read our meanings into “rod,” and assume so much… One of hte things that really shook me “back when” was when I went looking into ancient Jewish culture for their treatment of children, and all I could find were very nurturing views instead of the views on “the rod” (meaning, spanking) that I was so SURE I’d find…it was a little disconcerting…
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Elizabeth, thanks.
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Jettybetty, you are SO right. I would give a lot to go back and re-do the toddlerhood of my first kids. They were fun mellow kids, but still, I had it in my head that it was “me against them” most of the time…I wish I could have *enjoyed* them more…I so enjoy being all on the same team now…not that it isn’t any less work (in fact, it’s usually a little more), but the flavor of the home is just SO much better.
Posted by molleth on December 15, 2007 at 10:31 am
Ruth, Hi! I think I remember you! Thanks for delurking.
I’ll link to your blog too—I’m glad you mentioned it, because I’m bad about remembering. You ask great questions…I’ll get back to them later (not that I’ll have all the answers-lol) when I have time. Gotta run—
Posted by Tiffany on December 15, 2007 at 11:15 am
Looking forward to your thoughts on Ruth’s questions Molly. I am in the place of not being anti-spanking, but certainly not thinking it need be used in every circumstance like many book promote. I too am so tired of the christian discipline=spanking. I guess where I am at is that I think of spanking more as punishment. And yes, sometimes I find punishment to be a useful and necessary part of discipline, but that the whole idea behind disciple is discipleship which encompasses so much more than just punishment.
I suppose I am much more likely to use more immediate punishment for safety issues (like running out in the street) and more just gentle teaching for things like tantrums. (Like you I am a big fan of “I know you’re sad, but it isn’t ok to be here making everyone else sad too, so lets go to your room to be sad and you can come out again just as soon as you’re ready to be happy).
Anyway, all that to say, realy enjoying the discussion.
Molly, have you read “Say Goodbye to Whining, Complaining, and Bad Attitudes in You and your children”? Good read. I need to go back and re-read it I think. I just love the title, how it is about dealing with MY sin first. I mean, why to I expect my toddlers to behave better than I do? Seriously.
Posted by Tiffany on December 15, 2007 at 11:16 am
(on a side note, I am loving not debating anything.
Much more relaxing.)
XOXOXOX
Posted by TG on December 15, 2007 at 1:06 pm
What you wrote about in your post was very similar to my journey. Like our first interaction, I wanted you to really know that I was a taking-the-Bible-seriously sort. Not “liberal” on picking-and-choosing what I took seriously in the Bible. Like you, it was a real humbling, eye-opener when I realized that so many of my assumptions about “Biblical parenting” were based more on what I read into Scripture than what was directed from Scripture.
It’s been very humbling to me to learn through the years that in wanting to do everything “right,” that I often made extraBiblical principles for me and my family to follow.
The Lord has brought me and my family a long way. Unlike when I was a younger parent, I don’t think I have all the answers anymore! (Not that I would have claimed such then, either–but that certainly was my attitude. Maybe that’s a near-universal in young mothers?) I do see more now that I am dependent upon the Lord in such a foundational way. A way that I gave lip-service to in the past but didn’t understand like I do now.
Through it all, I’ve come to appreciate my mother’s wisdom more. Come to pray more. Start with a hug-and-a-prayer.
I struggle. My kids struggle. But we are all walking together, each learning to live out the Gospel in our lives and as a family.
Posted by Tiffany on December 15, 2007 at 1:27 pm
I wonder if the over-zealous confidence in the first years of parenting isn’t often simply a defence mechanism. There are so many people with so many ideas (often just in your extended families) all telling you that you MUST do it their way OR ELSE. And so you pick a position and hold on super super tight. And if you didn’t think you were 120% right the overwhelmingness of all the information and all the people try to pull you one way or another would just be too great. And then when you get a few years into, you relax a bit. Are less scared about totally destroying this small soul God has given you, and can breathe a little and maybe consider other views and way, or even just be a little less vocal about your views and a bit more confident in making the right choice for YOUR family, not figuring out the ONE way ALL families must do it.
Just a hypothesis.
Posted by molleth on December 15, 2007 at 1:47 pm
Unlike when I was a younger parent, I don’t think I have all the answers anymore! (Not that I would have claimed such then, either–but that certainly was my attitude. Maybe that’s a near-universal in young mothers?)
I love how you mention the struggle. I think it is and always will be. Anytime someone says the Gospel is easy (if you follow these five principles, or whatever), my first thought is, “RUN.” As the great quote says, “The Gospel is simple…but it’s not easy.”
Kids need concrete stuff, you know…”When I’m done” is forever. A timer that will “ding” in 5 minutes, though, and then it’s her turn? Now that’s something a kid can wrap her head around. So again, it’s not really an issue of bad behaviour, but more an issue of finding a way to operate that she can “get.”
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Maybe it’s a near universal in all alpha-personalities, in *all* areas. LOL… I’ve met some incredibly humble gracious AWESOME younger parents, so maybe it’s just those of us who tend towards knowing it all.
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Tiffany, it sounds like we’re pretty similar in thought right now…I’m rejecting the “spank at all times” mantra in the books, and yet I’m not quite sure it’s a good idea to reject it all together. All I know is that *most* of the time when I spank, there’s a better solution, but it’s more a matter of me not taking the time (having the patience) to do it. The book you mention, isn’t that by Turansky and Miller? I really like them!
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Ruth, I’ll take a stab…
for example right now I have a little girl on my lap begging and begging to play Elmo on the computer and not being very content with the answer “when I’m done”) sitting and talking and cuddling, well, that just doesn’t seem to be the right answer.
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Personally, I usually take that as a hint that I need to get off the computer, as opposed to something being wrong with my kid’s behaviour.
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I was in Sam’s Club a few weeks ago with my sil and her son, my daughter kept making noises that annoyed him, so I made her get out of the cart where she was sitting with him and walk with me. Continued whining “I want to ride with A!!” we stopped several times to talk, I prayed with her, no change in attitude or behavior.
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Again, I’d note her age, 3.5, and take her behaviour as par for the course. That doesn’t mean it needs ignored, but just that it’s not suprising to have a 3.5 year old acting like a 3.5 year old.
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I might have given her one more chance in the cart (something like, “Do you want to try again? Do you think you can be nice to cousin this time? Okay, we’ll try one more time.”). If she blew it, then she’d be walking, just like you had her, and if she was whining, I’d say something kindly but firmly like, “Sorry, maybe next time. Mom said no this time.”
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And I’d keep on walking and shopping, and completely ignore her whining other than to say something brief and to the point, like the above sentance, every time she asked again.
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(Caveat: Provided it wasn’t the loud flipping out kind of whining, which is impossible to ignore and which means the shopping trip is over and the kid goes straight to the car, with a, “I wish we could keep shopping, but that kind of whining is never okay. We have to stop shopping until you are ready to be kind to my ears.” or whatever works on your particular kid).
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I guess the biggest thing is just that she sounds like she’s pretty normal. LOL…
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What about teaching my little ones to come when I call them, to be quiet at the right time, about outright defiance shouting “NO!” in my face, about knowing exactly what I’m asking them to do and refusing?
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Coming when called can be done without spanking. It’s just a matter of (kindly) demanding that the child comes, giving them no other option (if they don’t come, you go get them and manually make them come. When they do come, you make sure to give them a high-five or something similar to praise their obedience).
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Being quiet: Time and practice and a lot of patience. Some kids get the “whisper” thing faster than others, too, and there’s not much that can be done about that but keep on pressing fingers to the lips and whispering, “Quiet time.” I know the whole, “kids sit in church quietly” camp has it all down, with swats doled out for movement and noise, but I’d rather have noisy-but-trying-to-be-quiet kids who are having a good time then kids on a pew who are frozen with fear of the stick.
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Also, I think most folks are pretty understanding when kids squeak in the middle of a service. It bothered me more than it bothered anyone else, I think.
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When someone gives me a “NO!” to the face, I just tell them that’s not an option. I have a REALLY strong-willed four year old who does that sometimes…and I say something like, “I think it’s time for you to go lay on your bed until your mouth feels better, because it must be feeling PRETTY bad to tell its Mom no. We do NOT say no to Moms.” and I usher him straight to bed. I handle the outright defiance pretty straightforwardly: it’s not allowed.
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Keeping in mind, it’s usually good to take a look at the circumstances, too, because often times I see that I could have handled the situation better (for example, given the kid a 5 minute warning before it’s time to clean up, instead of surprising him with a “clean up now!” before he could mentally prepare for it, etc). He still has to obey, but with a five minute warning, he’s had time to process the fact that his Lego creation is going to have to get cleaned up, versus having it sprung on him out of nowhere.
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Speaking of kids…mine are going to burn the house down if I don’t get off the computer. Hope I didn’t miss anything in your question (I’m a super-speed skim reader and a super-speed typist, but that means I’m not always as careful as I should be and that I miss things!)…
Posted by Lindsey @ enjoythejourney on December 15, 2007 at 2:28 pm
I don’t know what I think! I go both ways, really…I have been known to spank for the “biggies” when something huge happens and there seems nothing else. And, yes, I’ve spanked in the heat of anger and regretted it later
I’m more of a “gentle parenting” advocate b/c at least, with my kids taking something away or giving a consequence works better than spankings any day. I don’t know if it is just their personalities, or what, but it usually works for us. For instance, taking the computer away from my 7 year old is like dying a thousand deaths to her (she loves to log on once a day and play webkinz).
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I’m learning that I really know NOTHING about parenting other people’s kids, just my own. And as long as I get that down, what else matters?
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Oh, and yes, I remember the whole No Greater Joy/TOS boycott and all that a few years back. I will be honest, while I like alot of stuff that comes out of the Pearl’s writings I never, ever, ever could figure out their obsession with swatting and spanking. Someone gave me To Train A Child and I was *HORRIFIED* at it. I didn’t say much, because everyone in my circle at that time LOVED the book. I just kept my mouth shut, but something did not feel right about it from the get-go.
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I’m enjoying your series as always, Molly. And, there is a link at my blog to a great article on over-parenting you might like?
Posted by molleth on December 15, 2007 at 3:22 pm
Webkinz…yes, we do that too! LOL… I’m a fan of money. It’s a very practical consequence, and my kids get a lot of money as we make them buy a lot of their things (as part of their education), like their mittens, toothpaste, shampoo… So if I have to tell the crew something a couple times and no one is getting up and DOING it, I start charging fines for my time. “Alright, everyone still playing needs to pay me a buck—I told you it’s time to clean up twice and no one was listening, so this third time I’m having to come in here when I shouldn’t…one dollar for every extra reminder to obey your mom. I’ll be back in five minutes.” And I walk off chattering to myself (loud enough for them to hear), “Oooh, maybe they’ll still be playing and I’ll get more money–man, I bet I’ll be able to afford a couple mocha’s out of this!” They laugh and then they MOVE to start cleaning!
This doesn’t have to happen very often for obvious reasons…LOL…

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On TTUAC, I am horrified now, but I honestly didn’t see it THEN. I really didn’t. I think I glossed over half of the book, seriously, or just took it with a grain of salt, like he was joking and not really serious. Now…? Now, after having some *horrific* experiences with real live situations (with people who DID take him seriously and did NOT gloss over ANY of the book)…now it makes me sick to even think about it, much less that I ever ever ever recommended it. On the list of things I wish I could do over again in life, that’s a really really high one.
Today, I speak up, as kindly as possible, whenever the book or the Pearls come up in conversations. I am just not willing for my silence to be the cause of a kid being abused. Not everyone reads it tongue-in-cheek like I did, and the more I’ve heard, the more I think that the Pearls really DID mean every last word…that they didn’t mean it tongue-in-cheek either.
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I commented on your article, btw…
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And now…back to work I go!
Posted by tonia on December 15, 2007 at 6:09 pm
Ruth said something that really hits at the crux for me: “I prayed with her, no change in attitude or behavior. Gosh, she made me look bad! =) ”
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So much of my frustration in parenting has come out of the times when *I* am humiliated or embarrassed. This is an area the Lord has had to really work with me on…and believe me, my flesh dies hard.
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Love says: It’s not about me and how I look – it’s about the other person and their health and growth.
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1 Cor tells us love actually *covers* sins. I don’t think that means we stop discipling and helping our children grow into good behaviors (Molly’s take on the grocery cart incident is similar to what I would do.) But rather, our love is wide and strong and deep – enough to be a shield between the negative looks and opinions of others and the intimate, relational dealings between parent and child. Love, in the definition of 1 Cor. is uncompromisingly realistic: it sees the flaws and the weaknesses, the areas where our kids are downright scoundrels *smile*, but it swallows them up unflinchingly and goes about its business of helping the child grow closer to the Lord…with no concern for how that looks to the rest of the world.
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Whenever I worry that I am not being hard enough on my kids, I just think about how God parents me: completely accepting, totally willing to let me take years and years to “get it,” and endlessly patient in walking me in step by step in His paths. I throw tantrums, have terrible days, ignore my duties and indulge my weaknesses, all of it, and He just wraps me in love and points my feet back on the right path and starts walking with me again.
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(I wasn’t trying to pick on Ruth, just identifying my own reactions in her words…)
Posted by sarah on December 15, 2007 at 7:29 pm
yes.yes.yes.
Sometimes when I get frustrated at my four year old or three year old I’ll look at my husband and say, “I just wish she would act her age.” And then he’ll reply: “you mean you want her to act like she’s seven.” And then I nod begrudgingly.
My pride and my ego have taken a hit since I’ve had children. I’ve had to repent and still do for times when I’ve disciplined too harshly more because my children embarrassed me than for how they actually behaved.
I’ll chew on this post some more…I’m hosting my in-laws and have little time to spare.
Posted by molleth on December 15, 2007 at 9:01 pm
Sarah,
Your mothering advice here is just awesome!
http://commontraveler.blogspot.com/2007/12/baby-wearin.html I love it! I wore each of my kids here and there, but my last kid was the one I *officially* wore, and I couldn’t believe how…bonding it was. I mean, I thought I bonded with my other babies and I did, so don’t get me wrong, but something about wearing him 1-2 hours a day had me…I can’t even explain it, just so tuned into his rhthyms and so…one with him, I guess, even though to say it that way sounds hokey or weird…there’s just no other way I can put it. I was a fan of a babywrap for the first stage and my Ergo was indispensible once he got big and fat! LOL…
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Tonia,
I think Ruth was just saying that tongue-in-cheek, but I agree (and I think she does too). So much of my frustration as I parented (and as I parent) comes from the “Perform so I Look Good” mentality…it’s there…I have often have to address it in myself and shove it off into space, because it’s always there wanting to give its input. Blech. I’m learning, and I am getting better and better at telling it to get lost. It’s about THEM, not about me.
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One important point, though, that you touched on is that we together set the environment that will feed a performance mindset in other parents or help destroy it. Whenever I focus on externals-as-righteousness, I am encouraging a “performance” mentality—-and it’s not easy to be a parent in a room full of folks who are looking to see who’s “naughty” and who’s “nice.” SO MUCH BETTER to be a person of grace.
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Something about Jesus made the “naughty” crowd flock to Him, you know? When I’m around a self-righteous eye-brow raising “perform or I will condemn you” person, my main thought isn’t about how wonderful it is to be in their presence, but more like, “How can I get the heck out of here?” I don’t want to be around it, and I also don’t want to be like that.
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I know that I was…very much so, especially right before I had kids and in the early years when my Pearlish parenting was going along like clockwork (again, I think that wasn’t reflective of my age so much as it was my subconcious theology).
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I am so sad that I put that kind of burden on the backs of other parents and I’m so glad that I have the opportunity today to be a person who extends grace. I am not perfect, very much on a journey, but I see progress (by His grace!).
Posted by Jenna on December 15, 2007 at 9:19 pm
While I’m all for extending grace toward children when they mess up, I think that your view on how God treats his own children (as you wrote in your post) is too narrow. The Bible, in both old and new testaments, contains stories of what God has done to chastise his children when they stray and do not listen to him. He always loves us, but I don’t see anything that leads me to believe that verses like Proverbs 13:42 and Proverbs 23:13 mean that we should only train our children through hugs and snuggling. They should certainly be a very large portion of our expressions of love, but to imply that this is the same kind of way that God loves us- it’s not a complete picture. Instead, it tends to give the impression that parents who DO spank generally have the same mistaken feelings about what is being accomplished when they discipline their children. There are many, many parents who spank who aren’t being vindictive nor leaving their children trembling with fear of reprimand. I’m sorry that you had this experience, but it seems that maybe it has always been a heart issue- not that there is something so horribly awful with spanking.
Posted by molleth on December 15, 2007 at 11:31 pm
Yo, Jenna da’ babe! Nice to see you.
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I agree, God does use flat-out punishment on His children sometimes.
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I guess where I think I was missing it before is WHEN and HOW God used punishment…Biblically, it seems like it was only AFTER He tried and tried and tried and tried and tried and tried and tried and tried (and tried and tried and tried and tried) to get their attention in other ways.
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…Lots of second and third and eighteenth chances. Lots of pleadings and warnings and reminders. (This is SO not what Michael Pearl taught was godly parenting, no?).
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The Christian parenting books that talk about spanking as “normative” disciplinary action tend to forget the loooooooongsuffering patience that comes BEFORE God punishes. Punishment doesn’t seem to be something He does regularly but only after all other measures are exhausted.
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Jonah’s experience with Ninevah is an excellent case in point, in that Ninevah wasn’t even “in the fold,” but God still gave them GRACE, sent them a prophet (and went through a lot to get the dang prophet there in one piece-lol), gave them fair warning and ample time to stop their horrific behaviour, and when they did, was absolutely DELIGHTED. And Ninevah wasn’t even one of God’s “special” kids!
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That said, I also COMPLETELY agree with you that correcting wrong behaviour through kisses and snuggling is not going to be enough. I really hope that wasn’t what it seemed like I was saying…it’s not how I feel. I personally believe yes means yes and no means no. My kid can throw a fit for candy until he’s blue in the face, but he’s not going to get any, you know? Not spanking doesn’t mean permissive.
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I mentioned it in the previous post but probably should have said it here again, just to keep misunderstandings more at bay, but I am not opposed to spanking.
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I’m admittedly not really sure what I think about it in most cases, as I know that 99% of the time when I spank, I could have found a *better* tool to disciple my children—it’s just a matter of a.) I want the quicker fix of a swat, and b.) I have been raised to think of spanking as normative, so it is often a reflex reaction. (I initially wasn’t aware of a lot of other available options…as I journey, I am learning and gaining more and more tools and my “gut-reaction” of spanking is growing more and more feeble). Did I mention that I am on a journey (as in, so very NOT arrived???LOL)…
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So, one more time, please know that I am not opposed to the idea that sometimes a swat is a positive effective tool for getting a child to comply. (I know that will tick some people off, but it’s where I’m at for right now)… I *am* opposed to how I once looked at spanking, however, and opposed to the way it’s taught in many “Biblical” childrearing books. (That will tick other people off, but that’s just where I’m at). Lose/lose situation here.
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I do take a little bit of issue with you calling my thoughts a heart issue. I agree on the one hand: my heart was missing a bigger picture of God. But I disagree on the other hand, in that I’m not sure if you *heard* what I was saying…?
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The issue for me, in many ways, wasn’t that my heart was being selfish, because often the reason I spanked was because my heart wanted to obey God (and I thought spanking was God’s way)! It was very much a “for God” thing, it is just that I think I may have been wrong in what I thought God wanted… I am not sure how to express that any better…
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I do NOT think that the way the Pearls and Ted Tripp, et all, advise us to discipline is the way that God disciplines you and I. That doesn’t really have to do with my heart, other than that I want to rightly reflect God to my kids (as do we all, I’m sure). Because of wanting to rightly reflect Him, I have brought my former discipline opinions into the light of some very probing questions. I’m still not sure what the answers will be, but I think the questions are valid.
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Warmly (from a very cold state),
Molly
Posted by Mrs. Taft on December 16, 2007 at 12:54 am
I liked your thoughts here
I’m someone who believes that spanking is Biblical, but not the way that the Pearls and Ezzos of the world teach it. I really hate the way “the rod” is interpreted so literally when the word used there is not a physical word in usage meaning. The word is used elsewhere in Scripture nearly always figuratively, to mean authority, or to exert authority or to guide just as the shepherd guides his sheep.
Personally I find swats to be effective in certain cases, but in MOST cases, there are far better ways to correct the situation. Discipline and correction doesn’t necessarily mean punitive. I do believe in natural consequences etc. and those can be negative for sure (i.e., you jump off a cliff, you go splat. Not that I would let my kids jump off of cliffs, but you know what I mean), but teaching/discipline/correction doesn’t have to be negative or punitive in nature. I think that grace and love are always the best choice.
Posted by Jenna on December 16, 2007 at 8:20 am
Hi again, Molly.
I agree that God is incredibly patient with us. His love is overflowing, and sometimes he exercised that love in ways that is hard for his children to understand and be at piece with. There are times when God does as you describe with your child and the candy. He let Moses do the walking, and then didn’t let him enter the promised land. Then at other times, there were bronze snakes and death by bird meat, you know? Of course, I’m not advocating choking one’s kids on their dinner when they complain that they want something else. *chuckles* But, just saying that sometimes correction (and even punishment) was the painful longing of the heart, and sometimes it was very much a physical punishment.
I’m not a believer in spanking being a normative punishment. Each child will need individual attention, and their correction based on that- not a prescribed formula. I am completely with you there, that spanking doesn’t need to be the first reaction. Where I tend to disagree is how you are looking for ways to say that your current position is biblical, while a literal reading is not correct.
When I spoke about a heart issue, I wasn’t talking about whether you were trying to please God or not. I am sure that you are always seeking that. I was talking about your saying that punishment “feels good”, and that people like to see someone pay for their transgressions. With blanketed statements like that, you really make spanking parents sound like heinous people. I know that you keep referencing parenting books, the Pearls and Ezzos specifically. While I haven’t read anything by the Ezzos, I have read a few books by the Pearls. I know that they advocate spanking much more often than you feel is good for your family, but I’ve never read anything that gave me even the slightest impression that they support spanking as a way of paying back a child, or that they support gaining pleasure from inflicting pain on another.
I feel like there is something niggling at the back of my brain, wanting to be said, but I can’t figure out what it is just yet. *laughs* I should go and mop the snow off the floor and fix a hot meal instead. I’ll catch up with you in a little while.
Much love,
Jenna
Posted by TG on December 16, 2007 at 8:43 am
Molly, you know, I think you are right that it often has been more of the playing out of “alpha” personalities and the outward working of subconscious theology–not just “young moms” knowing it all. . .
Something that you and Tonia brought up I think is very important–the pressure to “perform” as both parents and children. Both the internal pressure as well as external pressure. How often have we heard the sentiment of “you parenting your obedient and delightful children will show a watching world how good it is to be a Christian.” While I understand the well-meaning sentiment there, I believe it is so false and dangerous. Dangerous, because it is showing the world a performance-based paradigm. Instead, I believe the “watching world” needs to see people who are transparent in their struggles, real parents with real children. Energetic, wonderful–and fallible. Yet, with the love of the Lord filling their homes and the reality of repentance and leaning into the Lord. Reminds me of Paul, “what then, should I sin more that grace may abound?” Not at all!
Just be real that we do sin and that we do have grace and a Lord who walks us through the valleys. The reality of faith, not just presenting a picture of what we think Christians ought to look like, you know?
Posted by tonia on December 16, 2007 at 8:44 am
Great discussion going on here; I find it really enjoyable.
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Question: often in these types of discussions, I hear people say that God punishes His kids.
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What does that mean exactly? Can anyone give me an example of what that might look like in a New Testament context?
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Yes, God sent snakes and plagues and kept Moses out of the Promised Land. That was OT – and then He poured out all His wrath on Jesus and we walk under the grace of His sacrifice now. So does God still *punish* us?
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I cannot personally think of a time when God has “punished” me. Let me live with consequences: yes. Sent strong, powerful conviction: yes. But I just don’t know what is meant by “punishment.”
If I sin and don’t repent, does God send a car wreck? or cancer? Is that my “spanking?”
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I am asking honestly. I probably have a blind-spot here. Does anyone have any thoughts?
Posted by Amy on December 16, 2007 at 9:34 am
“Can anyone give me an example of what that might look like in a New Testament context?”
Two references come quickly to mind: Ananias and Sapphira and the caution about the Lord’s table.
2With his wife’s full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles’ feet.
3Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God.”
5When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. 6Then the young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him.
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27Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment. 32When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.
Posted by tonia on December 16, 2007 at 10:21 am
Yes, I had thought of those as well, Amy, thank you. They seem such clear examples, but I have a hard time applying them to my life. It leads me to questions like:
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Does God sends death/sickness etc as punishment for our sins? How would we tell the difference between the natural results of living in a sin-sick world and God’s punishment? If my daughter has cancer – is she being punished or am I?
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And if you reject that whole train of thought…What would “punishment” look like in the life of the average believer?
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*smile*
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Small questions….things I think about in the wee hours.
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Posted by Amy on December 16, 2007 at 10:32 am
Tonia, The questions you ask can only be answered on a case-by-case basis. It’s not possible to say that all these things happen because of one’s disobedience. Sometimes it is so that the glory of God can be revealed.
Consider the case of the blind man from birth. They asked Jesus, “Who sinned? This man or his parents?” And he tells them that neither sinned, but it occurred so that he could be healed and God could be glorified.
In the sermon on the Mount, Jesus reminds us that it is better to lose our bodies than to lose our souls. What good is it to have an eye if it causes you to sin? In this way, whatever means God uses to get our attention is always grace. He is a good Shephard, and his purposes are to lead His straying sheep back home. The goal is restoration and redemption. He is kind and loving toward His own, even when we only see a frowning providence.
Posted by Amy on December 16, 2007 at 10:33 am
OK, apparently I’m not making the appropriate paragraph breaks. My apologies, but it isn’t clear to me why.
Posted by molleth on December 16, 2007 at 11:11 am
It’s because this blog lay-out has an issue with paragraph breaks. Don’t ask me why, and don’t ask me how to fix it. I just insert . in when I want a break. Sad, isn’t it?
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Ananius and Saphira and the Lord’s Table (and Jesus driving moneylenders out of the temple) are EXACTLY the reasons why I’m not willing to say that spanking and/or punishing are always always bad.
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That said, I also think it’s important to notice how RARE “punishment” seems to be. We don’t have Ananias/Saphira incidences going on on a frequent basis.
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Looking at Jesus when He walked on the earth is a GREAT way to put it in perspective for me. He was discipling sheep, just as we are discipling sheep as parents. I mean, He’s the Man who’s the Exact Representation of God, right? He’s God In Flesh. So how does He act when it comes to discipling and/or punishment, etc?
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Seems like He doesn’t punish very often. I can only think of one time…and it was VERY MUCH premeditated (sitting down to make a whip in order to go into the temple to whup up on some folks).
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The folks He went after were using and abusing the poor, all in the name of God. I think that’s important to note, as well.
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Keep in mind that while Judas was with them, he was stealing from the poor. Jesus never said anything. Keep in mind that Jesus got invited to a lot of parties and feasts thrown by sinful people and attended by sinful people. Jesus apparently didn’t start doling out harsh words, stern rebukes, or punishments, because they all kept inviting Him and the Pharisees were upset becuase they were all having such a good time.
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Jesus seemed to respond to everyone with grace and truth. Truth in that He didn’t flatter people and pretend like sin wasn’t sin—He was for them, for their growth. Yet at the same time, apparently He wasn’t pointing out sin every second and demanding that it get punished…
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Lots of times (uh, okay, *most* of the time), He didn’t punish at all (remember all the times He would just forgive and heal people, saying something to the effect of, “Your sins are forgiven, go in peace.” Wait, wait, don’t all sins need to be punished? Shouldn’t He have meted out an appropriate consequence!
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His actions were charactarized with grace to the extent that sinners flocked to Him. Do our kids feel safe with us…are they hiding, or do they feel safe coming and confessing to us?
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In the sermon on the Mount, Jesus reminds us that it is better to lose our bodies than to lose our souls. What good is it to have an eye if it causes you to sin?
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Hmm…I would argue against using the “if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out,” verses because I think Jesus was using those in context with the Jews and the Law, trying to show the Jews that the problem is not outward externals, but the heart inside of us. I think those verses are more supportive of a grace-based parenting philosophy than not, because they show us that what we *need* is not more law (with it’s accompanying punishments), or we’ll all have no body parts left. What we desperately need is a new heart.
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Punishment will not give our kids a new heart. More rules will not give our kids a new heart. Less rules will not give our kids a new heart. Getting spanked will not give our kids a new heart. Not getting spanked will not give our kids a new heart. Etc…
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Spanking gets put up there with the Gospel in some parenting books. Not good. Not spanking isn’t the gospel either. Punishment isn’t the gospel. Punishing every act of disobedience isn’t the gospel (nor does it reflect it, actually).
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Along those lines, I think I fell under the spell of some of the books, in that I thought by having super obedient kids, I’d guarantee their salvation. Now, that dream died a death a looong while ago, but I don’t blame me for having it, in the sense that it is what the books portray…something to the tune of, “If you don’t spank your kids, they will all become horrible sinners and burn in hell…”
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It creates a climate of fear for a new mom—-she’s incapable of looking at a 2 year old melt-down with any degree of rationality, because all she can see is *failure* on her part and eternal damnation on the part of the child. It’s not a good setting for helping the young mom relax into mothering, learn her kid, learn how he/she works, learn to comfort him while remaining firm…
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I could go on, but then…I’d never get a shower…and we’d never get out the door. So more later.
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Great conversation! Thanks, all!
Posted by tonia on December 16, 2007 at 11:24 am
Amy,
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Yes, I have those answers too…and I have used them to explain things for years. But somehow, at this point in my life, they don’t suffice. Makes God seem too capricious. But that’s a lengthy debate for another time, I think. *smile*
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Perhaps this is the place to narrow my original question: .
To those who say God punishes His kids, what do you mean by that? What does that generally look like in YOUR life?
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Posted by Barb on December 16, 2007 at 11:47 am
Amy I was thinking of the same example of Ananias and Sapphira. Also, wondering about discipline vs. punishment. Punishment isn’t the end it is a means of discipline (or maybe my 21st century American mindset is convinced “punishment” is bad?).
But you can’t say “Oh, I’ve got cancer, I must have done something wrong.” Or say the same about someone else. There are natural consequences to choices – if you smoke the likelihood of having cancer, heart-attack, etc. are likely – not a punishment but a natural fact. And sometimes bad things happen to decent people, not because of what they did/didn’t do, but just because they do happen.
I think when you are in relationship with your Creator and you’ve sinned, broken that relationship, the conviction you “feel” is as much (if not greater) the “punishment” than if something of a physical consequence happened. Your relationship is broken so you are broken in heart, soul and mind. Sometimes, for penance we believe we deserve/need a physical consequence to pay for our debt.
But GRACE – it has been paid, no need for beating ourselves up for something we can not mend. We can not mend it – it has been mended and not of our doing. What is required in us is humility and a contrite heart to say, “There’s nothing that I can do to mend this. Help me Lord Jesus.”
The problem with using the Acts and other narrative books to justify our methods is that (this is from my husband, no credit to me) they are descriptive – describing what Jesus and the early church did. They are not prescriptive, telling us This Is The ONLY Way and to Do All Things!
Now, after reading this I’m not sure how far off topic I have strayed. But it’s another 2 cents for you Molly – you must be getting rich – off of me at least!
Posted by tonia on December 16, 2007 at 12:36 pm
Barb,
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That’s exactly what I’m getting at. In every parenting discussion I’ve had online someone says “God spanks/punishes His own kids.” I just want to know what the definition of punishment/spanking is.
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If one means by “punishment” that God sends conviction to correct us or allows us to live with the consequences of our actions, I’m in agreement. But usually, that statement is used to defend a punitive style of parenting – either spanking, or some other form of negative consequence (other than logical consequences) – for disobedience.
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Thanks for the discussion all you beautiful ladies!
Posted by Amy on December 16, 2007 at 12:42 pm
My apologies for not elaborating on my comment. It wasn’t my intention to communicate that these are descriptive measures that God uses so we should too. (My children have lied and I didn’t strike them dead.) I only dropped a line because of Tonya’s question about New Testament examples. (I didn’t even tip my hand about where I am on the issue.) My apologies for piping in too quickly!
Posted by molleth on December 16, 2007 at 2:47 pm
Tonia,

It’s a good set of questions…What I hear behind them is this: does the way God parent us correspond with a parenting philosophy that says to strike children with a switch when they fail to perform/behave properly?
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God does disciple and discipline me. He does. But the way He does it does not correspond with the parenting method I read in the Pearls book.
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If anything, when I was a new Christian and flailing around all over the place (spewing poop and vomit), He was the extreme opposite: very much aware of my frame, not condemning me for acting like an infant, and then a baby, and then a toddler, and then a preschooler. Very THERE, there always, loving always. I can remember a couple specific instances of direct rebuke, but all I remember is a feeling of absolute CLEANESS (is that a word), of being loved beyond anything I ever thought. Instances of direct and authoritative rebuke were RARE. Very rare.
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Barb, a discussion thread is exactly that: for discussion. Who ever said we had to stay on topic? Plus, as far as I’m concerned, anything remotely connected to the main topic, IS on topic! LOL…
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Barb, you said,
Sometimes, for penance we believe we deserve/need a physical consequence to pay for our debt.
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But GRACE – it has been paid, no need for beating ourselves up for something we can not mend. We can not mend it – it has been mended and not of our doing.
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YES, this is one of the things I was trying to communicate. If we believe that we need to have our children pay for their sins, through punishment, are we being true to the Gospel? Isn’t the Gospel good news precisely BECAUSE of the fact that we could NOT pay for our sins? Isn’t the crux of the Gospel that we do not HAVE to pay for our sins? That there is no requirement of penance to atone for our wrongdoings? When we spank our kids so that they will pay the price for their misdeed, we are directly contradicting the Gospel. This is something I see as problematic…
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Amy,
Puh-lease feel free to comment whenever and wherever. Your thoughts are always welcome, and it’s never to “quick” to pipe in.
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Jenna, you said,
Where I tend to disagree is how you are looking for ways to say that your current position is biblical, while a literal reading is not correct.
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I confess to not quite following what you mean here. I don’t really have a position right now…I haven’t landed in any camp, I’m sort of…in process, on a journey, or any other analogy of that sort.
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I would say that a literal reading wouldn’t be correct, unless we actually read the Proverbs literally: as in, take a big thick shepherds rod to the back, not butt, of a teenage boy. LOL… All I was trying to point out was that even the “I’m taking it literally” group still aren’t honestly taking it literally (they still change out the word Shebet for a little switch, and they cancel the teenage boy and put in a toddler instead, and they use the rear end instead of the back, etc)…
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I have read a few books by the Pearls. I know that they advocate spanking much more often than you feel is good for your family, but I’ve never read anything that gave me even the slightest impression that they support spanking as a way of paying back a child, or that they support gaining pleasure from inflicting pain on another.
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The Pearls talk about spanking making a child feel better, that a child must be punished in order to feel right, in order to feel like they can be forgiven, etc. They teach spanking as a form of righteous payment, in that sense. (Wishing the book TTUAC wasn’t packed so I could give quotes—there are some real hum-dingers in there, that, of course, I **never** noticed when I was reading it as if they were just joking half the time!)…
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I, personally, do have a theological problem with the concept that our children must pay the price for their misdeeds. God doesn’t make me pay the price for my misdeeds, you know? *shrugs*
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On punishment, though, in my above post I was just reflecting/musing on punishment in general, *not* trying to say that Pearl or Ezzo or Tripp or whoever was teaching that it feels good to whop our children! LOL…
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Posted by pauseforamoment on December 16, 2007 at 6:07 pm
I was thinking that a scary thing can arise if a parent takes a parenting book and applies it to the letter. I dunno, any book I read that is not the Word I take with a pinch of salt. I guess what I feel is that when God gives you a child, it is because He knows that you are the very best parent for that child. He does offer some guidelines, but they are guidelines that are open to interpretation. I think what He requires is that we lean on Him. I know when I’m teaching and a situtation kerflumoxes me (happens a lot as I teach in rather a rough school!!) I have to pray. Father, what is your heart in this situation? How do I deal with this boy (usually a boy)? If He laid it out straight we wouldn’t need to seek Him.
I’m talking about the people who do the extreme gender thing, and the wearing of old-fashioned clothing and so on. Bizarre.)
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So many people need bullet point rules – why aren’t we seeking the Father for wisdom?
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I was thinking about the Pearls and the Ezzos – the Pearls are not known here at all, but nearly ALL my Christian friends follow the Ezzos stuff. I have to say that all their families are unique – they certainly don’t follow to the letter and they apply the principles that work for them. I guess this is a key, but the danger lies when people take the teaching to the nth degree. What characterises a happy family to me is a LOT of love, and a bit of discipline, with firm boundaries that no-one wants to cross because they love the joyful atmosphere that usually pervades. If a kid does, well, there are uncomfortable consequences, but these are few and far between because mum and dad are pretty clear with what they expect.
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Seriously, Molly, in America there seem to be some weirdo extremes that I honestly have never come across in Christian circles here! I’m getting such an education from your blog! (not that you’re a weirdo extreme..
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Lots to ponder.
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Val
Posted by Parenting: Performance Mentality (Is it Compatible with Christ)? « adventures in mercy on December 16, 2007 at 11:08 pm
[...] Proverbs 13:24, Punishing vs. Disciplining Children, and Two Year Old Fit Throwing Meditations [...]
Posted by molleth on December 16, 2007 at 11:37 pm
Val,
I always love your perspective and am so glad you take the time to share it. I love how you share what happens when you are facing a dilemna with a difficult kid—-that is exactly what we need to do! One is book based, the other way is God based. Good stuff.
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On the extremes here…Hmm…I wonder what it is about our country’s Christian subculture that makes us so ripe for extremes? It would be an interesting thing to study.
Posted by Barb on December 17, 2007 at 6:30 am
I am not one to compare Christians extremists to Muslim extremists, but your question above Molly, got me thinking about the sociological/psychological ripeness of a mind that embraces extremism. You’re right could be an interesting study.
Posted by April on December 17, 2007 at 6:52 pm
FINALLY making my way to this post, I want to thank you, Molly. I have been meandering in a theological parenting morass since #1 began to (*gasp*) grow her own opinions about life. I have read A LOT of books — secular and Christian/christian. I’ve also read FAR too many websites seeking some wisdom.
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What I’ve realized is that nobody’s wisdom is going to substitute for the Holy Spirit’s leading in my mothering. No method works without Christ working in me. No words matter without me seeking understanding in The Word.
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I’m sure this is just the most logical thing ever to most every parent in the world, but for me, it has been a hard slog up and down various hills, trying to emulate good parents I know and don’t know, trying to practice what others have discovered, only to find that my child reflects a temporary “fix” and then we’re back to whatever problem we had before.
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Because, and here’s the real shocker — most of The Problems with my kiddo(s) are actually problems with ME! It’s MY anger, MY perfectionism, MY arrogance, MY impatience, MY rebelliousness, etc. that is occasionally reflected back to me in these little mirrors God has given me that cuts me to the quick. I am finding that to be a good parent to my children, the most “heart work” that needs to be done is my own.
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And that just stinks.
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I’m so glad you’re back, Molly.
Posted by Acceptance-with-Joy on December 18, 2007 at 9:17 am
Molly, Do you know that I tell people all the time that I was a way better parent before I had kids? Well, I was. My kids weren’t ever going to misbehave. All it would take was a glance in their direction and they would “get in line.” Well, that isn’t how life worked out. My daughter was exposed to alcohol, meth and cocaine during her fetal development. Then under the gentle hands of the state’s foster care system she was shuffled around between relatives and foster parents. She had 9 homes before she came into my heart and home. And, she didn’t behave. It is easy to see photos of drug and alcohol affected babies and desire to help. It is quite another thing to stand by while your child refuses to bathe, steals everything that isn’t nailed down, sneaks on the computer in the middle of the night and sends suggestive emails to men in your roommates email address book… and on and on and still want to help.
There was a time I was pro-spanking but two things have changed my mind. First, my daughter’s brain is atypical. She doesn’t always understand my instructions and I never want to risk spanking her because she has FAS. Second, if I am brutally honest, often (very often) when things get really wild at my home, I am to blame. It takes a lot of energy to create the structured environment and schedulue my daughter needs to thrive. When things are going well, I tend to relax the environment. A relaxed environment “fits” me better. I didn’t want to ever spank my child because I had failed to parent her adequately either.
The Hebrew word translated rod is shebet (shay’-bet). This word is used 191 times in the Old Testament and is most frequently translated as tribe. This word is also translated rod (as in a shepherd’s rod), scepter and, occasionally, staff. It doesn’t mean to spank it means that a parent is in a role of authority in the child’s life. We are tribal leaders really. My role is to use my parental authority, my sceptor, to shepherd my flock, to keep it intact and to protect it from predators. I do this by gently guiding my children as they move toward the goal of being in the center of God’s will.
Posted by molleth on December 18, 2007 at 11:18 am
Because, and here’s the real shocker — most of The Problems with my kiddo(s) are actually problems with ME! It’s MY anger, MY perfectionism, MY arrogance, MY impatience, MY rebelliousness, etc. that is occasionally reflected back to me in these little mirrors God has given me that cuts me to the quick. I am finding that to be a good parent to my children, the most “heart work” that needs to be done is my own.
Good stuff, April.
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Acceptance-with-Joy,
GREAT comment…wow…
Posted by tonia on December 18, 2007 at 11:27 am
Acceptance-with-Joy,
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Amen, Amen. I am in the same place. Great thoughts.
Posted by tiffany on December 18, 2007 at 1:41 pm
April- so right with you. My eldest has been driving me *crazy* lately with all the whinning. Then low and behold…wait, it is me that whines all the time. Sure, is sounds different from her, but the principal is just the same.
I guess that is why Turansky and Miller include the “in YOU and your children” as part of the title.
I mean, it isn’t that are children are without a sin nature, certainly. And there is that to deal with. And until they intimately know Christ there will always be that to deal with, even if we as parents reached a level of perfection ourselves. (sorry, no one choke on their coffee please). But I do think, like many have said first, that many issues in parenting are definitely a case of removing my own plank then their spec- before we are all walking around with planks. Because really, it is much easier to deal with the heart issue of whinning after only 3 years habit than it is after 25.
I’m loving the discussion of the Biblical context of Rod. I’m still not ok saying that spanking isn’t a good tool in the parenting toolbox, but just so thankful that it isn’t the ONLY tool. When all you have is a hammer, everything begins to look like a nail.
Posted by molleth on December 18, 2007 at 3:20 pm
When all you have is a hammer, everything begins to look like a nail.
SO TRUE.
Posted by daybreaking on December 19, 2007 at 7:32 am
Before I had children, I thought for sure spanking was the route we would take. Then they placed my little baby boy in my arms and everything changed. I vowed I would never lay a hand on that precious babe. Thus began a long and in-depth search on discipline. I like a lot of the philosophy of “grace-based” discipline, but do not buy into the “totally non-punitive” view some take. We do use time outs, removal of privileges, and time in room, etc. I do find that they are an important part of the discipline package, but unlike spanking, can be positive in nature even though they are punitive.
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Did you know research has shown that time-outs are JUST as effective as spanking, with longer-term results? I can vouch for their effectiveness. We started when our son turned one and have had great success with them not only stopping undesirable behavior, but changing the heart as well.
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I have to be honest that sometimes we have been tempted to consider spanking, but in retrospect are SO glad we have not gone that route. Yes, it would have been easier and faster in the short-term, but when we looked at the big picture, we knew we wanted so much more. We now see the fruits of consistent, day by day guidance. I absolutely love how our son has internalized “rightness” and good behavior. He doesn’t behave because he is afraid of being hit, he behaves because he knows it is right and he wants to do good. He truly wants to please us. As a side note, I should add that this isn’t because he’s such a compliant child or we’re such stellar parents (how I wish!). Another plus is that he never, ever, would consider hurting or hitting his 10 month old sister or any playmates. One too many times, I’ve seen children who have been spanked try to control others by hitting them.
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Molly, I know you like to read and research. Some books you might find very interesting are ones by Elizabeth Pantley (”The No-Cry Discipline Book,” “Perfect Parenting,” or “Kid Cooperation: How to Stop Yelling, Nagging and Pleading and Get Kids to Cooperate) or by Dr. Sears (”The Discipline Book”). Whereas some “gentle parenting” books focus on philosophy, these books get into the nitty-gritty of what do when. I’ve found them very helpful in coming up with creative, non-spanking ways of disciplining my children.
Posted by tiffany on December 19, 2007 at 8:21 am
Molly, AcceptanceJoy, and anyone else: I am wonder if y’all can point me in the direction of the sources you have found to aid in the study of the word rod? Just a quick glance through the blueletterbible online doesn’t necessarily seem to suggest as strongly the connotation that has been put forth so far. What has been put forth does make sense to me, just wondering about references and such that I can look up for myself.
Daybreak- I have had a different experience inregards to children and hitting each other. I know many children who are not spanked and yet still do occaisionally hit. I’m not sure that the two are as linked as you think they are. I would have said the same thing about my eldest daughter with her little sister too, until little sister got to be about 18mo and started getting into her stuff. I don’t really think her hitting has anything to do with spanking. Maybe, but I sincerely doubt it.
Posted by Acceptance-with-Joy on December 19, 2007 at 9:45 am
Tiffany, I first began looking at the concept of the rod after reading Phillip Keller’s Shepherd Looks at Psalm 23. In the book Phillips describes from a shepherd’s view of how a shepherd would use a rod to care for his flock. This is not a parenting book. It is a book that paints a picture of what exactly a shepherd is for those of us who are city-folk and do not fully understand the parable of the Great Shepherd as painted in Scripture.
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“The infallible rule of interpretation of Scripture is the Scripture itself: and therefore, when there is a question about the true and full sense of any Scripture (which is not manifold, but one), it must be searched and known by other places that speak more clearly.” ~ Westminster Confession of Faith
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I searched the Bible for other places the word “rod” occurs. This is not as easy as looking for the word rod in English. The translators were not at all consistent in translating a Hebrew word into the same English word. I used a concordance to study the word shebet. It is through studying all the other places in the Scripture that the word occured that I concluded that rod speaks most clearly of the concept of authority.
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When I read the whole of Scripture relating to the word shebet, when I consider that my daughter is an image-bearer who belongs to her Creator, when I consider my role as a sacred steward, I could not conclude that 6 or 7 verses in Proverbs that advocate using the rod mean that I must spank my child.
Posted by molleth on December 19, 2007 at 11:30 am
I would have said the same thing about my eldest daughter with her little sister too, until little sister got to be about 18mo and started getting into her stuff. I don’t really think her hitting has anything to do with spanking.
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Rambling thoughts to all,
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Personally, I think it’s human nature to use force to get someone else to do or not do what we want. Cain and Abel kind of prove that one, no? *sad smile*
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Spanking can be a loving parent trying to help guide a child…but I think it’s fair to say that it’s putting a LOT of power in the hand of a fallible human (telling them that it’s okay to purposely hurt their child in order to get their child to perform the way that they want them to. Something like that should be said only with a LOT of ceveats, you know?).
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Because of the fact that we’re all mere humans, chances are high that letting people have that degree of power over a weaker person is going to result in abuse. Spanking advocates often don’t recognize this.
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I remember doing a series of posts a long time ago and another blog ago, lol, on spanking. I was pro-spanking and really annoyed with some arguments against it that I was seeing…to counter it, I did a pro-series…and when I went looking for studies that supported spanking, ran into a big…brick wall. At the time, I was convinced this was because the studies were all done by liberals (funny, isn’t it, how we only see what we want to see?) and so dismissed them, albeit a little nervously and wondering if maybe there was more to this anti-spanking thing than I’d thought…
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Mostly, I found that physical discipline correlated with higher aggression rates. Anyone with Google can go find the same thing. I wonder if maybe part of that, if not a main part of it, is because kids who are physically disciplined learn, whether consciousely or unconsciously, that when faced with a problem, it’s acceptable to use physical power to force others to agree with your way.
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When you break it down, that’s really what spanking is. I, as the bigger stronger party, will use physical force to make you, the weaker powerless party, comply with my way. As a parent, I think that’s a level of power that we need to be really careful with.
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Are there better ways to teach kids problem solving skills other than “Do what I say or I will hurt you?” I think that in most cases, yes.
Posted by daybreaking on December 19, 2007 at 11:34 am
Tiffany,
I’ll agree that there’s not a 100% correlation between being spanked and hitting; there will always be cases of children raised in non-spanking homes that hit. I will say that I think the degree of spanking has a lot to do with it. In homes where spanking is used sparingly and gently, I don’t think there is near the correlation; however, in homes that follow Ezzo, Pearls and/or Tripp to the tee, swatting for every infraction, I see a huge correlation. I was actually appalled the last time I witnessed an “Ezzo-family” that is huge on using the training rod. In a short 5 minute span, I saw the children repeatedly swat each other whenever one did something the other thought they shouldn’t be doing. (By the way, Pearls advocated older siblings training younger ones with the rod, so perhaps in their minds, that’s what they were doing.) Still, it turned my stomach to see such swatting a prevalant and “normal” part of their interactions.
Posted by molleth on December 19, 2007 at 11:52 am
Daybreaking, that’s something I’ve had to counter in my oldest. We were Pearl followers, so were totally okay with her swatting the young ones if it was needed. This is how she saw me mothering the little ones in our home, up until I started having a major paradigm shift, beginning with our fourth child at around 2 years old (when my oldest was 6) when I realized it was NOT working with him and was actually harming him.
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I’ve really been working hard to “retrain her,” as the Pearls would say, only NOT in the way that they would advocate. I constantly talk about what I’m doing and why, particularly with our youngest child (why I am hugging Jireh, why I am not spanking him, why I am wearing him [when he was little], why I am being compassionate on him, etc), because I want to work very hard to counter the stuff we made her think was an acceptable way to be with young children (which was basically, “Do it my way or I’ll politely hit you.”)
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She’s a lot like me, not a super mothery female, and so is a lot more prone to want things in ways that are orderly (the swats appeal to her just as they did to me: we get what we want, quickly, and without a lot of the messy fussy stuff)…human relationships, however, are messy things, at least when they are healthy…
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She would play with dolls as a 3 and 4 year old and spank them…I thought it was funny, in the sense that I would only give her a swat or two, but she would turn those dolls over and just whale on them…Now the thought of it makes me sick…what was it she learned at that age…? That mothers spank whenever there’s an imperfection. They’d get their dolls and set up little scenarios where the dolls disobeyed and got spanked, disobeyed and got spanked, over and over again.
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With my fifth baby, I talked about how I was mothering him constantly, constantly to her, my oldest, because I think she was the one most negatively affected by our parenting practices. It was so good…very healing for both of us in many ways…and the things she says NOW, about Jireh’s behaviour and our treatment of him, are SO much healthier than her natural reactions only a year ago. It is such a relief…to see God reshaping, helping her to re-see things, though I would be lying if I didn’t admit that I grieve over the years I wish I could re-do (and don’t even like talking or thinking about it…it’s just so hard to think about).
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It’s so weird, like you mentioned with the Ezzo family and the training rod, how NORMAL AND RIGHT it seems like when you are in it. The farther and farther I get from the Pearl mentality I had, the more appalled I am, the more my eyes bulge with shock, the more outraged I am that I ever swallowed any of it. But when you are *in* it, it all just makes sense and seems so perfectly normal…you are literally blind.
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Posted by Letters from Readers: What Do You Do When…? (Two-Year-Old-Tantrums) « adventures in mercy on December 29, 2007 at 11:59 am
[...] to me that I will answer here. Referring to the way I sometimes handle a two-year-old fit (here), View from the Prairie Box wondered, Molly’s posts are really encouraging and I found [...]
Posted by Parenting with Gentleness Series « adventures in mercy on June 20, 2008 at 11:20 am
[...] Proverbs 13:24, Punishing vs. Disciplining Children, and Two Year Old Fit Throwing Meditations [...]
Posted by Georgia on September 7, 2008 at 6:16 pm
I’m so far late in this discussion, but oh, how relevant to me now. If I had read it when it was written and commented, well, I probably wouldn’t have. With our first baby, some dear friends gave us an Ezzo book so that we could train our daughter to sleep through the night quickly. And she did. And so did the next one. My oldest daughter was spanked for every single thing she did that we did not want her to do, whether it was taking her barrette out or removing her shoes. I remember growing so weary of spanking her all the time when it just didn’t seem to change the will of that 18-month old. Except I didn’t realize it then. I just thought we had to perservere. Eventually, we ended up with a compliant child.
Our second child was a perfect BabyWise child until she turned 2, nearly one year ago. She didn’t go the way of her sister…she is a mischevous scamp who tests the waters and crosses the line and insists on doing things the hard (albeit, fun) way. The more she rebelled, the more we spanked her. I honestly didn’t know any other way to parent, and frankly, I still don’t.
Our third child, born last November was also a BabyWise baby, although much more loosely. I couldn’t stick to the schedule as vehemently as before with 2 other young children to manage. I couldn’t always stop and discipline the older girls whenever it was warranted.
But something always seemed wrong about spanking a 6-month old baby to get them to stop putting their hands in their mouth during a feeding. I remember many times thinking that we sure spanked a lot and didn’t get a whole lot of results.
Lately, I have spurned some of my ideas about parenting and the Ezzo way of thinking is one of those theories. I realize that the punitiveness of my disciplining them is not drawing my children closer to me, but driving them far from me, and thusly, far from God. Aren’t I God’s representive to my children? If so, I don’t believe I’ve represented Him very well. I don’t want them to believe that God is waiting to smite them every time they do something “wrong”.
I am sifting through so many feelings and ideas and complete paradigm changes in the last 6 months, I can hardly take it all in. My thoughts on this topic spill over to another topic and on and on and on and I could go on and on.
In all of this new awakening, the one constant is God’s grace and comfort to me when I realize how off base I was in my understanding of Him and my role as a parent. I want to hang my head in shame and cry for the hurt I’ve unwittingly caused my girls. I was literally sick to my stomach when I realized what I had done to them.
I don’t believe God punishes us just for the sake of punishing us. There will be times that we get it wrong. When we believe, in faith, that via the teachings of the Pearls or the Ezzos or Mr. Tripp that we are training our child in the way they should go, I still believe God is pleased with us. Even though we get it wrong, God is so willing and able to set things to right.
And that’s what makes all this easier to bear.
Molly…I cant’ thank you enough for seeing my comment on another blog and then stoppping by. That’s how I found you. You cannnot know how timely this was to me. I intend to link to your blog and hopefully that you’ll be a regular reader of mine as well.
Posted by molleth on September 8, 2008 at 9:05 am
Georgia,
I’m so glad you are here! I so know what you are talking about when you say,
“I am sifting through so many feelings and ideas and complete paradigm changes in the last 6 months, I can hardly take it all in. “
Good for you, for having the guts and the brains and the GRACE FROM GOD to re-examine “God’s way” and ask if it really is of God. It takes a lot of strength to do that. And I’m sure He will hold your hand tight, as He did mine, through the confusing swirl of trying to get things sorted out and stay alive in the process. (It almost killed me…but I think in a good way…I think)…
If you can (it’s way cheap), grab a used copy from Amazon of “Families Where Grace is in Place.” It was SO helpful to me, and I’ve heard so many other parents coming out of punitiive parenting rave about it too. It’s not a book like Ezzo or Pearl or the other sorts with all the answers and the step by step plan for getting perfection accomplished. It’s just a book with some thoughts about families where grace is the foundation…sad to say (in that I wish I had figured it out from the start), but a message sorely lacking in most parenting/marriage/family books, and very very life changing.
I’d been studying the Scripture a LOT before getting a copy of this book…practically eating Galatians word by precious word…and having my paradigm shifted, often bloodily, and so reading the book was just awesome, to know that I wasn’t crazy, that there were others who were thinking the same thing and much farther along, that maybe, just maybe, I really was seeing Jesus and *wasn’t* being horribly decieved by leaving Pearl/Ezzo/etc behind…
(((((hugs)))))
Molly
Posted by GiGi on October 12, 2008 at 7:50 pm
I’m not a mom, but I stumbled across the parenting series of your blog today.
As someone who is still terrified of parenting (I came from a well-meaning, but spiritually and emotionally abusive home), the stuff I’m reading here gives me hope that maybe I could stumble my way through it and my kids won’t be permanently scarred.
If you want to know what NOT to do (and maybe get some perspective on your own upbringing) try reading “If you had controlling Parents” http://www.amazon.com/If-You-Had-Controlling-Parents/dp/0060929324/ref=pd_sim_b_26
OR
Too Perfect http://www.amazon.com/Too-Perfect-When-Being-Control/dp/0449908003/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1223868210&sr=8-1
When you read these stories you’ll see how much of “Biblical” teaching, from discipleship to parenting is actually perfectionism and manipulation.
As an adult spank-ee and friend of spank-ees, I can tell you some problems that come from that being the predominant form of discipline.
1. It does not support communication – it cultivates fear.
2. It sets kids up for people-pleasing and possibly lying, not just to their parents. You become conditioned to overwrought, over-the-top reactions to minor infractions and also (depending on your style) withholding of affection. So to avoid that you try to do something – anything to avoid that feeling of disapproval and isolation. (It feels like death)
3. When you train your kids not to question your authority – they learn not to question ANY authority. It doesn’t just stop when they hit 18 and leave your home – this makes them gullible and leaves them vulnerable out in the world.
4. Spanking to correct flagrant rebellion is one thing, but sometimes… often… the power goes to the parents’ head and punishment is meted out for petty annoyances and for just being different in temperament than the punishing parent.
5. When you are consistently punished for being yourself (combined with conditioning to do what others say) you never really learn who you are. You start to look to others to tell you who you are, what you should be, what you should think.
6. From the parental side – I think if you are always looking for signs of sin and where they should be it can become a fake relationship, because you’re really loving the person they will be – not who they are now.
I think a brilliant example for parenting is displayed in the Holy Spirit. He is a comforter, he guides us into truth and he convicts us of RIGHTEOUSNESS. (Not sin because that would be the devil’s job. He is the accuser of the brethren and there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.)
Anyway… thanks ladies… you warmed my heart… please be here in the next couple of years when I’ll (hopefully) be married with kids!
Posted by GiGi on October 12, 2008 at 8:02 pm
OOh… I also forgot to say that punitive discipline can teach you to look to outside forces to motivate you to do right – something that is noticeably absent once you leave the home…
NOW done ;D
Posted by Samuel Martin on January 6, 2009 at 5:50 am
Hi Molly,
Someone referred me to your site letting me know you were referring people to my website. For those who are interested, please feel free to visit my site because I am giving my book away free now for all interested parties.
Sincerely,
Samuel Martin
http://www.biblechild.com
Posted by molleth on January 6, 2009 at 9:00 am
Samuel,
That is so cool! Thank you for that!
Posted by Lucy on May 15, 2009 at 10:02 am
I’m not a believer in rearing children according to social protocal. I fear what I’m reading in this post, and many of the comments, is just that. Whether social pressure is being applied by the Ezzos or the anti-spank crowd, it is just that. Many people on this page seemed to have swung between the two end points, but all the time they are conforming to social pressures.
May I assure everyone that there is a middle ground, there are lots of people there, and once you find your own way there you will be much happier.
@ what TG said: “Something that you and Tonia brought up I think is very important–the pressure to “perform” as both parents and children.”
In today’s society, that pressure to perform as a non-spanking parent is very, very heavy. In my opinion, it is a much stronger pressure than that from parents who spank, because it is much harder to resist that desire to be seen a loving and caring and nuturing parent who would never raise violence against a helpless innocent child. Afterall, if spanking is a punishable offence (see Samuel Martins’ efforts) it must be only done by horrendous monsters.
See what molleth said: “Spanking can be a loving parent trying to help guide a child…but I think it’s fair to say that it’s putting a LOT of power in the hand of a fallible human (telling them that it’s okay to purposely hurt their child in order to get their child to perform the way that they want them to. Something like that should be said only with a LOT of ceveats, you know?).”
When you read what molleth said, really think about the perspective of this. God put the rearing of tiny helpless children into the hands of very fallible humans. Yet the only “power” is the spanking? The far greatest “power” is guiding the childs thoughts, teaching them what is good and what is bad. The “power” of parenting is how you brainwash your child. (Nasty term, but applicable). You have the power to teach it about God, and give it the opportunity to reach heaven, or you have the power to teach it God is a myth and possible deny it heaven. Yet the ability to spank is the danger?
molleth goes on: “I was pro-spanking and really annoyed with some arguments against it that I was seeing…to counter it, I did a pro-series…and when I went looking for studies that supported spanking, ran into a big…brick wall. At the time, I was convinced this was because the studies were all done by liberals (funny, isn’t it, how we only see what we want to see?) and so dismissed them, albeit a little nervously and wondering if maybe there was more to this anti-spanking thing than I’d thought…”
Since this discussion is rather old, it is possible molleth never ran across Robert Larzelere in his/her research. Anyone coming along would please research Mr. Larzelere, he has done some of the only real objective research into the effectiveness of spanking protocals.
molleth was caught by social pressures in her research. molleth began to question her/himself because s/he only read research with one conclusion. Yet spanking has been a form of very effective and natural (as many posters have pointed out) discipline for ages. Research is often biased, and when it runs counter to nature, it is most often incomplete and should rightly be suspect.
I have yet to see a study that proves the existence of God. So….
@ what GiGi said: “As an adult spank-ee and friend of spank-ees, I can tell you some problems that come from that being the predominant form of discipline.
3. When you train your kids not to question your authority – they learn not to question ANY authority. It doesn’t just stop when they hit 18 and leave your home – this makes them gullible and leaves them vulnerable out in the world.”
This is an argument I have seen made by children of Haulocost survivors. The argument being that if the Jews had not been so authoritarian (or is it subservient) in their social protocals, they would have stood up to the Nazis. Many of the same people who make this argument make the ‘violence begets violence’ argument against punishment and also eschew gun ownership, ironically the one thing that WOULD have stopped the Nazis.
This argument is, of course, countered by the existence of America which was pioneered by people from heavily authoritarian social structures.
In my opinon it is rubbish. You can train your kids not to question your authority, while training them to judge and weigh dictums from any other “authority figure”. (ex. Your teacher might be mad if you defend yourself, but mommy and daddy will not). The message of parental authority is properly temporary, and is taught simultaneously with the message of individual rights and autonomy. I explained to my children that ‘everyone is their own king’. I never found that it detracted from ‘do as I say’.
Anecdote time: my own parents were influenced by the social protocals of Dr. Spock. As a result, I was rarely spanked as a child, I could count on one hand all the times I was spanked (serious offeces, like lying, only). On the other hand, I can run out of fingers for time spent in “time-out” in one afternoon – as a teenager. So if you ask me, if I would rather my parents had instilled a better attitude in me through spankings, as a 3-5 year old, instead of spending countless hours (yes, HOURS) on a time-out chair as a teenager (yes, TEENAGER), having my attitude “adjusted”, I would say “you bet your sweet petunia”.
Now in full disclosure, I will reveal that the only parenting book I have ever read is Miss Manners Guide to Rearing Proper Children, and the one point I disagreed with her on is spanking.
My plea to parents is to throw out the parenting books, close your ears to social pressures, read your Bible and don’t puke on nature just because a fallable human tells you nature is a beast. After all, God designed it.
As a parting thought to those who are pleased with a society that banishes “corporal punishment by parents”, please consider what the state replaces it with: “A whupping or a padded cell”
Posted by Lucy on May 15, 2009 at 10:08 am
Sorry, the link to “A whupping or a padded cell” didn’t go through – here it is:
http://pissinontheroses.blogspot.com/2009/03/whupping-or-padded-cell.html