Moot Thoughts and Musings recently wrote about mothering and grace, and had a comment addressed to me that I will answer here. Referring to the way I sometimes handle a two-year-old fit (here) and also complimenting those conversing here, View from the Prairie Box wondered,
Molly’s posts are really encouraging and I found myself reading through the comments as though I was sitting in a group of women from my own church. I’m impressed at the gentle discussions taking place there. Every mom desires to please God with her actions–and that’s something you don’t see all the time when it comes to opinions on childrearing.
I do wonder about the two year old move tantrum. It’s wonderful that a comforting cuddle cured the fit, but I wonder what happens when the toddler rejects mama’s arms and begins to spit, scream, bite and writhe on the floor. I also like the idea of allowing a child to throw a tantrum in his bedroom in private, but what happens when he disobeys and comes out of the room to throw the tantrum?
That is where I feel okay with giving a kid a swat or two. But first let me clarify:
I make sure the child has a brain. I know that sounds kind of dumb, but I swear to you, it’s really important to remember. I don’t know how many parents I’ve heard bemoan the way they parented their special-needs kid in the early years before they realized he/she was special-needs. (Like spanking a kid for their angry outbursts and later finding out they have Tourette’s Syndrome). Pay attention to your parent gut. If it says there’s something not quite right there, listen to it and not the parenting books.
That’s not to say that special-needs kids don’t need boundaries, but it’s just to remind parents to know what they’re dealing with before assuming. Also, age-appropriateness is HUGE. I thought everybody “got” that, but know with stomach-sick certainty now that they don’t. A five month old doesn’t cry in order to manipulate you. She’s just hungry/wet/needs touched. The last thing she needs is to be swatted, but a few freaky sick but unfortunately somewhat mainstream parenting gurus teach exactly that. And that’s sick.
It’s displaying a tremendous level of self-absorption, when a person assumes that a five month old brain makes the same connections that a fully mature adult brain does. If you want robots who never cry, poop, or ask you for anything, go get one built. If you are asking a two year old to act like a ten year old and spanking him when he doesn’t, then the problem is you, not him, so stop making him suffer for it.
I can’t look at my two year old and assume he has the same brain I do. He just doesn’t. So that means I can’t assign the same level of intentions to his behaviour and then punish him for what I percieve to be adult-level rebellion and defiance.
But that doesn’t mean wacko behavior is okay. If I ask my four year old to go to his room and be angry and sad in there (as opposed to flopping on the floor in convulsions because his Lego airplane just fell apart, while I’m in the middle of homeschooling the other kids), I’m not punishing him for being angry or sad. Shoot, God has all of those emotions, and He’s not sinful, so apparently it’s okay to have emotions that aren’t “Happy, Happy, Joy, Joy.” It’s just a matter of learning how to handle them in ways that don’t ruin everyone else’s day.
So I give him a hug and send him thataway, nicely but firmly (as in, it’s non-optional, but no, hon, you’re not in trouble). He goes and works through his grief with moans and hollers, coming out ten minutes later looking rather refreshed. But let’s just be honest. He and I both know that if he goes to his room and starts kicking holes in the wall…he’s dead meat. And he knows that. So he doesn’t kick the walls.
And this is where I’m okay with spanking (which, in my definition, means a few swats). When all else fails, it’s worth a try. Seems like there are times when my two year old is flat-out NOT motivated by anything else, and “fear of punishment” is a valid human motivator. That’s not proof that it’s right, just proof that it does work. It’s only one of many motivators, though, which is a great argument against spanking-for-all-problems. Uh, when there are a million other motivators that can help a kid walk within boundaries, why resort to the violent humiliating one?
But sometimes all other avenues are used up. In my opinion, a swat motivates some two-year-old minds when all else fails. But I need to make sure I’ve done my job well first and looked circumspectly at both the circumstance, the kid’s brain development level, and all the options for guiding the child (back into our boundaries) available to me — because otherwise I’m just resorting to whapping him in order to save myself the work of being a good parent.
I’m also 9o% sure that most of the time, there are alternatives that would work just as well. My problem is, I hardly know of any. But I’m learning.


















Posted by sue on December 29, 2007 at 12:26 pm
Since spanking never worked with Nathan at that age, I would put him in a basket hold. With his back facing me, I would grab his wrists, cross his arms in front of him.(Sorta like a chicken wing..HA..) Then once his arms were secure I would hoist him up on one of my hips. He couldn’t bite, hit or spit since he was still facing away from me. He could still kick some but after a short time he would finally calm down and I could let go. I’m 5′9″ so I could could do this till he got to be 5 or so.
Posted by tiffany on December 29, 2007 at 1:15 pm
Sometimes I think the lack of brain development can be a good case for a little swat. For example- if you have an 18mo obsessed with the electrical sockets. You’ve tried the covers, they just take them out. You’ve tried redirected, they just go back. You’ve tried a “this is a no! but over here….this is a yes” approach. And yet the little tyke still wants to stick things in there. A small toddler can’t be expected to understand the dangers on an intellectual level, and sometime gentle methods don’t work. (I use the electrical sockets as one example, but there are certain others- going out in the street, jumping down stairs, medicine, cleaning supplies, etc).
I do agree though Molly, that expected a 2yo to act like a mature Christian adult is a.b.s.o.l.u.t.e.l.y. r.i.d.i.c.u.l.o.u.s.
Not that we can’t have high standards as parents, I believe we can and should. But I think many families (mine included at times) would bennefit greatly from stopping and considering if the children are expected to behave better than the adults do.
Like you have mentioned before too, a lot of this is about knowing your child. For most children I think there are certain forms of correction that work best for that child. The trouble comes in finding it. And further more, there are probably seasons to different forms of correction (the 18mo toddler may need a flick on the hand, but when that same toddler is 4 something different may work 100% better).
My frustration in parenting discussion is usually when one group or book claims that all families must do “this” or “not do this” all of the time in order to be good parents. I think it is more complex than that.
Posted by Leah on December 29, 2007 at 1:43 pm
This whole discussion reminds me of a fellow I know. He is the father of several young stair-steppers. He rules them with fear. Absolute fear. He carries around a 12 inch plastic “rod” and waves it toward them if they even LOOK like they might disobey. They are not happy children.
Has he exhausted all other avenues of discipline? No way. Not even close.
Just a thought.
Leah
Posted by Barb on December 29, 2007 at 3:02 pm
Tantrums have usually come when my child is exhausted and he/she doesn’t/didn’t know it. It’s almost like I have to remove myself (my pride if I’m at the grocery store) and graciously understand why he’s reacting so violently. When in public and this happens, if possible I quickly make for the car and head home. Taking care of their issues is more important than groceries – leave the cart. If I’m at home I put the kid in his room and give him time to cool off. Usually (and this is how I know tiredness is/was the issue) I walk in 5-10 minutes later and they’re fast asleep. This has been my experience. Spanking during a tantrum just seems to aggravate the situation – doesn’t bring resolution.
Posted by Lydia on December 29, 2007 at 3:31 pm
Each day for our first grade class, I read Trinity an animal story and a Bible story. There are a handful of comprehension questions at the end–very simple questions that Trinity at 6 years old easily answers. Occasionally Justice will sit in on the story time, and I am repeatedly amazed at how difficult these questions are for him. He has an exceptional vocabulary and is highly verbal, but the cause and effect, why questions have him stumped.
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Why was the elephant on the roof?
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“Ummm. . . . ummm . . . . because she’s the elephant?” His answers hardly make sense.
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This has happened often enough to make me really question a 3 year-old’s ability to reason and just how much it is fair to require of them in terms of truly understanding their behavior and discipline. Do they really know why they do much of what they do? I’m not so sure. Just because I see flashes of understanding and some impressive reasoning skills does not mean they can connect all the dots.
Posted by molleth on December 29, 2007 at 7:04 pm
Lydia,

It’s fun…adventurous…at moments, hair-pullingly frustrating…but mostly, FUN.
That is such a great picture. It’s so true…our little kids are SO smart, and yet on the other hand, so NOT smart… They are right where they should be, developmentally, and the thing *we* should be doing, as the older wiser member of the party, is being just like God is with us, “remembering our frame.”
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Barb,
You are SO right. I just had my youngest at a baby shower (Lydia was there-lol) whereupon he threw a full on fit…melt-down in full force. I was tired and would have rather had him at a babysitter, to be honest, but I also knew that “disciplining” him for his behavior would be SO wrong for me to do because 1.) It was an hour past his nap, and 2.) he (and I) were both starving hungry.
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I took him to a nearby McDonalds and got him a little hamburger (”hambuhgerger”) and whaddya know: 2 minutes later I had a happy toddler who went to the babyshower with me and managed to sit there for almost an hour.
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Leah,
That is SO so so sad. (I know who you’re talking about: a total Pearl-ite, though one who’s certainly taken their teachings far beyond what they would advocate. Unfortunately, the Pearls materials served to feed this guy’s weirdness…). Good thing you are nearby. Keep your eyes open—those kids may need to be rescued at some point.
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Sue, that’s a great method for physically restraining someone who’s gone out of control.
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Tiffany, that’s exactly what I’m talking about. Not the things that are “workable” but those times when nothing else seems to be getting across, and it’s an IMPORTANT thing to get across. And I totally agree with you on high standards: I’m so not saying we should treat our kids like they have plant matter for brains or something. It’s just the idea that kids shouldn’t be kids… like some people, how they make every thing a battle instead of picking a few big ones that really actually MATTER.
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I’ve been surprised to find, as I’ve worked to find ways of communicating WITHOUT punishing (which includes any “punishment” methods where you make them “pay”) how many ways there actually are to help my kids walk within the boundaries we set, and that includes EVEN the wild and wooley toddler.
Posted by daybreaking on December 29, 2007 at 8:53 pm
I’ve always looked at tantrums as being the result of a child’s immaturity. In other words, a child who is not developmentally able to handle the strong emotions he is feeling expresses those feelings through a tantrum. Thus, it is my job to get down to the child’s level and work with him through his emotions, teaching him better ways of expressing his anger. I truly feel that spanking/punishment is the last thing a child needs at that point and that all it would teach him is to bottle up his emotions or that having strong feelings is wrong. Just think how many adults have anger management problems. Perhaps they would have learned the tools they needed to cope with anger if their parents had worked with them through their emotions when they were children, teaching them appropriate ways to handle their feelings, rather than just spanking or punishing them.
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Personally, I have found great success in de-escalating potential melt-downs by empathizing with my son and working with him through his frustration. Just to give an example, when he was younger and was building a tower that fell down, he might get upset and knock the blocks away. If I reprimanded him, I’m sure his anger would escalate. If I sent him to his room, I would have lost a great opportunity for helping him grow emotionally. If, on the other hand, I took a few minutes to stop what I was doing, got on the floor with him and said, “Honey, I know you are upset because your tower fell. That’s upsetting when it happens, isn’t it?” he almost always would calm down and then I could problem solve with him. The wonderful thing about this approach is that my son internalized the problem solving strategies we discussed, as evidenced by his reaction to a peer getting anger in a similar situation at church. (On the way home, my son said, “Mommy, I don’t know why he got so upset when his tower fell. He can build a new one!”)
On a side note, if my son didn’t calm when I first got down with him, natural consequences worked wonders. “Honey, I know you are upset, but if you are not able to play with out kicking the blocks, we’ll need to put them away for the rest of the day. If you want to play with your toys, you need to treat them with care.”
Posted by crystal on December 29, 2007 at 9:32 pm
“But that doesn’t mean wacko behavior is okay. If I ask my four year old to go to his room and be angry and sad in there (as opposed to flopping on the floor in convulsions because his Lego airplane just fell apart, while I’m in the middle of homeschooling the other kids), I’m not punishing him for being angry or sad. Shoot, God has all of those emotions, and He’s not sinful, so apparently it’s okay to have emotions that aren’t “Happy, Happy, Joy, Joy.” It’s just a matter of learning how to handle them in ways that don’t ruin everyone else’s day. “
I LOVE THIS! You explain this SO WELL! I am always trying to explain this to my friends and I just can’t get the words right. Thanks again for just knowing how to put words together so they make sense.
Posted by molleth on December 29, 2007 at 11:05 pm
Daybreaking, I love what you shared and agree, bigtime! When I am able, I have been working on the “working through the feelings” principle as opposed to sending down the hammer of, “Those Feelings Not Allowed (because they annoy me).” I mean, when I collapse crying out to God, He doesn’t give me a lecture about knocking off the whining, you know?
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But I have to add that often, with five kids, there are times when I just can’t be everything to everyone, like in the middle of helping one kid work through frustrating math problems, so sometimes the other kid just needs a kind parting word with a squeeze, usually something to the effect of, “I know you feel bad because ____ just happened. That would make me feel bad too. Why don’t you go up to your room and cry for awhile, until you feel better? Come on down whenever you’re ready, hon.”
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I don’t mean this in a way that excuses poor parenting on my part, but at the same time, there is big fat ugly reality to consider. I’d love to be Wonder Mom (and work through math problem frustrations and Lego contraption explosions and toddler diaper disasters all at the same time-ha!), but the older I get, the more I’m realizing I ain’t her.
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AND OH MY GOSH, I can’t even imagine if I was jostling a newborn right now (this is the longest I’ve gone not being pregnant in my entire married life…and it is very much on PURPOSE).
Anyways, I say that because I see the appeal for the more punitive parenting philosophies when you have large families…one can only be stretched so far, and it’s a lot easier to just command and swat, particularly when you’ve got a “take charge” personality that tends toward punitive thinking (perhaps simply because it’s all you’ve ever known?). The only problem is that while it seems to “work” in the early years (as in, they usually comply because they’re littler than you are and have no choice), it doesn’t seem conduscive to growing happy healthy adults. That’s the over all goal I’m shooting for, not robotic kids.
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Crystal,
YES. I think that’s one of the more damaging things I adopted from the Pearls—the idea that only certain feelings are okay, and other ones were sin, to be “trained” away via the switch. David is a big blubbering mess in Psalms, and God seems to be okay with that…and God Himself was known to throw some emotions around, from extreme joy to mouth-frothing rage to jealousy to anguished hurt. Feelings aren’t bad. It’s what we do with them that matters.
Posted by pistolpete on December 30, 2007 at 12:27 am
During fellowship time at a church I had just begun to serve, my 4 year old decided she wanted an extra brownie. When my wife said no, she promptly threw herself on the floor, kicking and screeching (doing sort of a 4-year version of a break dance). My wife calmly stood beside her, making sure she didn’t run into anything or anyone. After about 30 seconds – 1 minute of this, she stopped, started bawling and asked to be hugged. It never happened again.
Posted by daybreaking on December 30, 2007 at 12:41 am
Molly,
I hear ya! I couldn’t believe how much my life changed when my second was born. I’ve only got two and I sometimes feel overwhelmed trying to juggle it all, so I can definitely relate to what you said. I still hold out hope for being Wonder Mom, but that hope seems to be slipping through my fingers quite fast!!
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Overall, I think it’s the overriding philosophy that makes the difference. We’ll blow it, we’ll be stretched too thin, we won’t be able to address things perfectly, but if our children know we are truly there for them, wanting to help them mature and work through issues, they will respond and grow. I’ve had times where I just couldn’t address a situation the way I wanted at the time (either because I had a fussy baby in my arms or I was exhausted from nursing during the night or I, myself, didn’t have a good attitude), but later in the day was able to “redeem” the situation by pulling my son aside and having a heart to heart talk with him.
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I agree that the punitive “control them” philosophy is very appealing to large families because of the ease of it. I remember, though, Mike Pearl doing a whole series of articles on “jumping ship” and talking about the large numbers of children (raised under the Pearls’ type of training) leaving the faith and rejecting their parents teaching. Although the article had a lot of good points, one thought that kept coming back was how the “control, control, control, swat, swat, swat” philosophy worked wonders when the kids were younger, but then drove the kids away when they were older. The “gentle parenting” you mentioned earlier is a whole lot more work, but I believe the long-range outcome is far superior to the punitive, controlling, “got to conquer them” parenting philosophy promoted by many.
Posted by Laura on December 30, 2007 at 5:10 am
My parents raised me with the “Ezzo” methods – GKGW classes and all. Me and all three of my sisters walked away from them and the church for a long time – thought ten years later, my youngest sister still hasn’t returned to either, most especially the church (or God).
We were spanked for everything. There was no other punishment until we got much older. Oh, well, there was the whole writing sentences thing.
I wasn’t taught what TO do but a lot of what NOT to do. As a result, I don’t feel like I’ve had a lot of common sense as I stepped out on my own and I’ve had to re-learn a lot about….well, a lot. We were also told (a lot) that we couldn’t “feel that way.” We weren’t allowed to be angry and if we cried? Heaven help us. It drove my mom over the edge. Everything they did was with good intention and they both came from terribly abusive backgrounds with no idea about how to parent. The Ezzos filled that hole nicely for them, giving them a “Godly” way to parent with structure.
Thankfully, through the examples and lives of so many wonderfully gracious people in my life, I’ve learned a lot about how to live my life now (since I wasn’t taught as a child but punished) and I’m learning a lot about how to graciously and Godly raise my children. It’s shocking that those two aren’t always linked since, you know, God is GRACE.
Anyway, what you write here about when to spank is great (especially appreciated that special needs mention because we’re in the middle of regularly trying to decide if or just how much my child is affected by her special needs and how to discipline in light of that (or with no light on the subject as the case may be). What you wrote about feelings is also huge for me because my sisters and I talk often about letting our kids feel HOWEVER they want but letting them know that they are responsible for what they do with those feelings and that they can’t hurt themselves, other people or physical stuff (like walls) as a result of those feelings.
I’m loving this series Molly and I really appreciate not only your thoughts but those of everyone commenting here. There are many people like me, completely re-learning how to “feel” and how to think independently with common sense. Also I am at the beginning of learning how to raise kids in light of that – having a few women that are a few steps ahead to help shed some new light on what makes much more sense concerning how God disciplines us and how in turn we should follow His example in disciplining our kids is invaluable.
Posted by molleth on December 30, 2007 at 8:57 am
Wow, Laura, thanks so much for sharing. Good good stuff… I think what’s so tricky about all the Ezzo/pearl/etc stuff is how good it “looks” during the earlier stages of it…because young children are so controllable, in that sense…I know it sure fooled me.
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daybreaking, I agree. And it is WAY more work. I think that surprised me the most, because before I’d equated my punitive method as the one that was the most noble, that required the most effort out of me, blah blah blah. Come to find out, in many ways, it was just the easiest, quickest way to get what I wanted. Not inward results, just outward ones.
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Pistolpete, that’s a really cool story. When we’re not motivated by “how it looks,” we have a lot more freedom to handle the situation in the way that’s best for the CHILD, not the way that makes us look good fast.
Posted by Nathan Bubna on December 31, 2007 at 11:20 am
My parents (who i think did a good job of raising us lovingly and only using spanking when appropriate and necessary) advocate spanking under these guidelines (as best i can remember, though i’ve not actually sat in on one of their official parenting classes):
Only do it when:
– the kid is defiant of understood instructions (you can usually tell the difference between defiance and experimental or unintentional disobedience)
– when the offense warrants it (overuse can become abuse or water-down the effectiveness of spanking)
– when *you* are not angry (it must be done as discipline under control of love, not anger)
– when there’s not another means of discipline that is effective for that child at that age (some kids don’t need physical reprimands, some are too young, some are too old)
– when spanking is effective for that kid at that age (some kids don’t care about physical pain at that level, and no this doesn’t mean you spank them harder!)
– optionally and only occasionally, a spanking is a useful way to communicate to a young child that a very dangerous behavior equals pain for them, without them having to experience the real consequence of that action. (speak a language they understand, older/smarter kids may understand fine with words in these situations)
– hug afterwards, be sure the kid knows you love them!!
my first child isn’t even two yet, so spanking is not yet in the “toolbox” and i have no personal experience to vet these guidelines, but they always seemed wise to me. i think they even had some cool alliterations or acronyms for these, but i don’t know them.
Posted by Elizabeth on December 31, 2007 at 5:32 pm
I recognize that spanking is a “tool” that some parents are comfortable with, and I respect that. It’s not one that I ever feel good about using, however- if I’m calm enough not to spank “in anger” then I can think of a better solution. And if I’m spanking in anger, then I’m sinning. Just like if I’m yelling because I’m frustrated at something else, etc.
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It’s interesting, though. I’ve never seen a parent spank calmly, when they are not angry- I’ve only seen parents spank when they are mad. The few times I’ve done it, I’ve certainly been angry, like I said. And it was a clue to me that I needed to look at MYSELF, and see what was going on with me- in one situation in particular, I remember I spanked my then 2 yo because she was being contrary- because I was suffering from “baby blues” following the birth of my second child, I was feeling stressed out, isolated, overwhelmed and I just wanted HER to STOP. It was a real wake-up call for me, to ask for help, get some rest, pray, get recharged.
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I am still confused about why some folks take the position that spanking is “necessary.” Are there truly some situations where you feel that if a child is not spanked for a certain offense, that they will never learn better? And if you did spank them, do you truly think that the lesson was learned “for always” or do you think that the situation would return again and you’d have to address it again later, either with another spanking or a different approach? The classic example I always here about is running out in the street… well, I personally would not/do not trust that a spanking would teach my child not do that. When they are old enough, they will understand the dangers of running into the road, without a spanking, and until that time, it’s my job to keep them safe.
Posted by Mak on December 31, 2007 at 8:15 pm
i compare spanking for a tantrum to someone slapping me when I’m having a bit of a meltdown (which I do on rare occasions – just cry out of the blue, usually when I’ve been suppressing sadness for too long) – I think it’s counter productive and disrespectful of the child.
I don’t think 2 yo tantrums need to be “dealt with” really, they’re just emotional outbursts usually born out of frustration, tiredness and/or hunger.
Posted by Nathan Bubna on January 1, 2008 at 2:46 pm
I can still clearly remember personal experiences of non-angry, appropriate spanking by my parents and have “seen” (not in the room, but saw both exit from my room and return) other parents do it as well. None of the instances i’m thinking of involved two year olds, and they *certainly* didn’t involve tantrums.
It’s hard for me to imagine situations where spanking would be an appropriate and useful response to a tantrum, especially one of the two year old variety. Like you said, Mak, tantrums usually aren’t done in defiance, but in frustration when tired or hungry or otherwise already stressed. I think i’ve seen a few older kids willfully throwing a tantrum in defiance, but never a two year old. And even with those older kids, i don’t remember spankings being used or needed to “deal with” them.
If my daughter (currently 18 months old) turns out to be a kid for whom spanking seems like an effective means of discipline, then i still wouldn’t expect that to be an option for quite some time yet, as communication between us is still very rudimentary. And that’s only if my wife and i agree that spanking would be helpful and appropriate for her. With some kids it’s never a proper option, whether because they never do anything that really warrants it or there are other things that work as well or better as discipline for them. Every kid is different.
Posted by Mak on January 1, 2008 at 7:42 pm
Nathan, let me just encourage you to consider not spanking at all. If you can be THAT controlled and THAT measured in your discipline, it’s just not going to be necessary…and you never know what damage even a “spanking not done in anger” can produce. I’m so glad I never spanked my oldest because even though many times according to spankers she warranted it, she turned out to be so incredibly sensitive I know for a fact it would have damaged our relationship – - even though as a younger littl’n I wouldn’t have known that.
Not to mention that it’s still hitting. Just because it’s done by an adult against a child doesn’t make it any less hitting than an adult against an adult.
that’s not to say that I think spankers are bad people or bad parents or anything..I just don’t believe spanking is necessary and if our society called it what it is – a larger person using physical force against a smaller person to elicit a desired response – otherwise known as hitting – I think it would be less accepted than it is.
Posted by molleth on January 1, 2008 at 10:09 pm
Hey, Mak, I’m glad you chimed in.
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I find it interesting that when folks called it “hitting,” I blew out a gasket (when I was a Pearl defender, etc). Calling it hitting just…made me furious. But…uh…it is hitting…it’s a certain type of hitting, as in not all hitting is the same just like all eating isn’t the same just like all swimming isn’t the same…but it’s still hitting.
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Now, I find myself referring to it as hitting when I think about it in my mind. Actually, (without doing so on purpose), I ticked off a close friend during a discussion on discipline philosophies, who thought I was being purposely inflammatory because I shared that I was questioning the validity of hitting our kids as a primary means of discipline. Boy, he was MAD! It took me a few minutes to try and explain that I meant nothing inflammatory by it, though in the end, we had to agree to disagree…he was sure that I did.
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But, though I’ll try not to use that word in future conversations (if I ever have any with folks who staunchly believe that spanking is God’s way, which is not something I go looking for-lol), I mean, let’s face it…whether it made my friend mad or not, spanking *is* hitting.
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Where I’m at, I think there may be a place for a swat or two from time to time, as long as we:
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A.) admit it is what it is [a form of hitting],
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B.) make it NON-humiliating, NON-shaming, and NON-condemning [which pretty much rules out spanking for everyone old enough to feel shamed by it], and
C.) as long as we don’t try to put God’s name on it and say it’s the “only way” to get a kid to do what we want.
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I guess I was helped into this current conclusion by the fact that I have an incredibly incredibly wild toddler. The kind that climbs refrigerators, I mean, in a happy fun sort of way.
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He reminds me of a wild little kitten or bear cub. He responds well to a lot of things, as I learn more and more ways to guide behaviour (and I can’t believe how many there are! I was so clueless about all of this when I started, being so well-trained in punitive philosophies when it came to dealing with negative behavior).
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But sometimes I give him an intentional (not angry) swat or two, particularly when dealing with dangerous things that I really really really need to get his attention about, AFTER a few other attempts haven’t worked.
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I love him…he is SO loved…and such a little wild NUT and he makes us laugh SO much… But when it comes to him keeping within boundaries, there’s not much he won’t try (and try again, and again), however he does respond to the fear of pain.
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I think the fear of the swat is better than being crippled for life, etc, you know? And while there’s a lot that we can do to kid-proof things and whatnot, fact is, we’re a family with five active bouncy kids, and we can’t keep our youngest in a cage (though it’s tempting sometimes—LOL) so that he stays SAFE. Fear of punishment *is* one of many motivators, but it is a motivator. That doesn’t make it the best, and that doesn’t make it one that’s always right, and yet it exists…and seems to be used by the Spirit sometimes (Jesus saying that the Spirit comes to convict the world of sin and of judgement…?, etc)…
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I think parenting primarily based on fear of punishment is NOT NOT NOT giving kids a healthy environment to thrive in. But does that mean fear of punishment is bad, always? Can it be a good thing, when used in very rare doses and only when necessary (all else has failed, etc). I guess that’s where my question is…
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I know that drives some of my AP readers nuts right now, but I figure, why have a blog if I have to pretend to be something I’m not (which is to say, I’m not in the mood to pretend like I’m a big fan of spanking, but I’m also not in the mood to pretend like I’m 100% opposed to it either). I have questions, that’s all.
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I guess what I’m saying is, I don’t see a case in Scripture that proves “spanking to be God’s way for raising kids,” and I find books that claim that to be beyond frustrating (and harmful!). But I equally don’t see a case in Scripture that proves that giving a 2 year old kid a swat when all else fails to get his attention is antithetical to Christian parenting.
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*shrugs and grins*
Posted by Mak on January 2, 2008 at 7:23 am
I understand what you’re saying and you’re doing it the “best” way possible while still allowing that as an option in your discipline but I maintain that no matter how wild the child, spanking is not necessary or ideal. However, I agree with you about your scripture points and certainly won’t tell you that you’re a bad Christian or bad parent for an occasional “swat” as you say. And, note I say “ideal”. I also think it’s ideal for me not to use a harsh voice with my kids but I do. I also think it’s ideal for a million things to be or not be but I also realize there is grace present for us to live outside our ideals.
I actually find myself in a more “middle of the road” position regarding grace based discipline/positive parenting – I think imposed consequences are appropriate for certain ages and certain things. Some of my PP peers would disagree. As for fear of punishment? well, that’s just silly, everyone unless they’re sociopathic “fears” negative consequences and often chooses not to do something because of that alone. that’s not “bad” but internalized discipline should be our goal – not obedient children because they fear punishment.
Posted by Elizabeth on January 3, 2008 at 5:53 am
Mak, as usual, a voice of reason.
I second this thought, “I also think it’s ideal for a million things to be or not be but I also realize there is grace present for us to live outside our ideals.”
Posted by Nathan Bubna on January 3, 2008 at 4:10 pm
“Hitting”, eh? Interesting, but not convincing. It’s not that i don’t think it’s hitting, of course it is. I just don’t think hitting is always wrong; i might even argue that it is not always (i.e. not intrinsically) wrong. If i did, i’d have to change a lot more than my views on parenting (think sports, just war, games like “slug bug” or dodgeball, wet towel snapping, etc).
As for my being in control meaning that it is unnecessary, that doesn’t make sense to me at all. Discipline should come from love for the child (which should come from love for God). This means to me that discipline is ideally (and i strive and pray that it would be in actuality) not about me or my needs. So then what does my being in control have to do with it? Such a statement practically implies (though not quite) that it might be necessary if i was not in control! I don’t like anything about this “parental control equals spanking unnecessary” argument. Gives me the creeps down deep.
Regarding the “you never know what damage even a “spanking not done in anger” can produce” comment, well, i personally strive not to make decisions based on fear of unknown and unknowable possible consequences. You also never know what damage *any* parenting technique can produce. There are plenty of ways we can mess up our kids and plenty of completely contrasting experiences and opinions about all sorts of parenting decisions. My wife has voraciously read many books on parenting from a wide variety of perspectives and we have heard much advice (both requested and pressed upon us) from our quite diverse families and friends. The only consistent things we get are: spend time with your kids, read to and with them, make sure your marriage is not sacrificed on the altar of parenthood, and (from the Christians only) pray for and with them. Other than that, everyone disagrees on both what you should do and the effects of the various techniques. Often one book or person says that doing “X” is essential while the next says that doing “X” is a horrible idea. The net effect has been that we (my wife and i) now instinctively disbelieve anyone who claims something is either “absolutely essential” to do or who claims something is “absolutely unnecessary” or worse, as those usually seem to have more to do with that persons’s experiences, worldview, or whatever than it has to do with any other individual parent’s very specific relationship with their individual and unique child(ren). Times change, people change, and both usually start off different to begin with. It’s damn complex and the only trustworthy rule is “love God utterly (which includes loving you everyone else, especially your spouse and kids)”., which is actually more of a relationship than a rule”. Beyond that, everything is fuzzy and few things (if any) are always absolute.
Molly, i agree with almost everything you said in your last post, and i really appreciate it! I especially liked your reminder that “spanking” (whatever that might mean) should not be made humiliating or condemning. Don’t do it in front of others and make sure the kid knows that it was only their action that was bad, not them, whom you dearly love. As for having it not be shaming, well, i don’t know if you can control that. Seems like it mostly has to do with the kid’s understanding and personality. Also, i don’t think it’s a problem if they’re ashamed of what they did, so long as they’re not ashamed of themselves. If you see spanking have the latter effect, it’s probably a clue that spanking is not really something to use with that particular kid.
Anyway, i appreciate that this has gotten me thinking more clearly and thoroughly about the whole spanking thing. Mak, that goes for your thoughts too. Iron sharpens iron, so i appreciate the challenges a lot!
Posted by Mak on January 3, 2008 at 7:57 pm
I think you misunderstood and we’ll obviously just have to realize we disagree
“parental control equals spanking unnecessary” argument. Gives me the creeps down deep.
It gives you the creeps? I’m talking about the parent having control over his/her emotions. If I have control enough over my faculties to calmly bring my child into another room, explain the spanking and proceed to hit him/her, it doesn’t make sense to me why I can’t come up with other modes of discipline that don’t involve physical pain.
and your arguments that hitting is sometimes ok doesn’t jive AT ALL. Spanking is intended to inflict enough pain to cause a reaction and illicit response. It’s not ok for adults to treat each other that way, it’s called assault. It’s only ok for adults to treat kids that way because kids can’t file assault charges.
anyway, this whole issue is just too huge to get into here. I’ve said my piece. Spanking isn’t necessary and I’d rather parents shoot for the goal of not spanking at all and resorting to it a few times than having it as the “godly way of discipline” as most spankers say and having it get out of hand.
I can tell you FOR A FACT that every single one of my friends who spank do it in front of others, all the time and starting VERY VERY YOUNG. AND YET, they would in words, agree with the usual guidelines.
and no matter what you say about you and your wife’s distrust of “absolutes”, I maintain that spanking is absolutely unnecessary WHEN a parent chooses that path and WHEN they are committed to educating themselves in other discipline tools. NOW, having said that, if a parent is not willing to live in that way and instead chooses to keep spanking on the table then of course it’s going to feel necessary. Because they’re not equipped or prepared otherwise.
But I’ve already said that this is an ideal and grace is present. I guess the only thing I encourage parents to do is not walk into a spanking mindset without giving it some second thought and I encourage parents to arm themselves with many many other tools and philosophies and really use spanking as an absolute last resort and be very aware of the affects.
oh and as for making decisions out of fear – that wasn’t fair, you’re presenting a straw man and a complete false dichotomy.
Posted by Alisa on July 1, 2009 at 11:20 pm
Molly, I’m so glad you didn’t take all this down when you wanted to! I’m so grateful all these posts are here to make me feel like there’s someone else going through the same process… since somehow I didn’t read them when they were first published.