I hope the title didn’t make you think I was going to tell you how, since, well, I don’t know how.
A reader asks,
Hey Molly,
I was wondering (since you and your blog are such a wealth of information to me at the moment) if you’ve come up with an effective way to talk to people who are pro-Pearls. There honestly is a LOT of the Pearls stuff that I like, but the 10 percent that I dislike I rabidly hate. Just wondering if you’d had experience talking to people who like TTUC without totally being offensive. Because, at the moment, “their discipline techniques make me want to puke,” doesn’t seem like a great opening intro. Ha.
I responded with my usual wisdom, which is obviously what draws readers to this blog by the droves—as in, said something like,
Uh…I don’t know.
So what are your thoughts, commentators and commentors? When I bought into the Pearls, I handed out their books (at least twenty, if not more) on both parenting and on marriage. I can’t believe I ever swallowed their teaching now, but that doesn’t really take back the books I handed out then, you know?
It’s particularly painful when I see parenting practices that I believe to be destructive. Over-zealous Pearlites: a baby being swatted (oh, wait, make that, “trained“) at four months, learning to only reach for the toys that momma says are allowed, or a grown woman in turmoil about her sister going through a messy divorce (”Please pray for her, will you?”), and then finding out the reason for her turmoil has nothing to do with the fact that the woman’s been beaten and abused by a sadist for twenty years, but rather, because the sister has chosen the ungodly path of divorce instead of the godly path of quiet and meek submission.
My experience, thus far, at trying to talk to super-pro-Pearl people (when and if the subject comes up, as well as attempting to discuss the issue with as much warmth as possible, not openly seeking conflict or a “debate”) is that my questions are either politely ignored or I get a worried glance as if, by questioning the Pearls, that can only mean I’ve left the faith and am sacrificing chickens with the pagans at night. The look is made more familiar because I handed it out a few times myself. When someone was against the Pearls, no matter what their actual argument was, all I heard them say was something like, “I don’t believe in giving children boundaries, I let my kids run all over me, plus I don’t obey what the Bible says.” Let’s just say I had filters up that pretty much made it impossible for me to hear at all.
There’s a place for liberty, and I know that, but it’s a little different when a philosophy causes other people a great deal of pain and/or suffering. Who feels like giving “liberty” to the person who starts swatting their crying 2 month old baby, all because all he got out of the Pearls teachings was that God says we need to condition our kids into appropriate behaviours through use of the rod, and that there’s no age too young to start.
Remember when Ezzo was all the rage? Now there’s enough people having come out of the Ezzo camps singed, disillusioned, and regretting they ever heard the name. It used to be only a small trickle—and they were made to feel crazy, like something was wrong with them, that they were obviously not on God’s team since they’d just rejected, “Growing Kids God’s Way.” Now the trickle has turned into a thunderstorm. Ezzo still has followers, yeah, but the throngs of adoring fans are gone.
You can quote me on this one: I believe, though it may be ten years out, that the same exact thing is going to happen with families who follow the Pearls. I don’t even want to know some of the nightmare stories that are going to be told, but the few I know (some of which in real life) so far are enough.
~Recommended Reading: Perfectionism and the Pearls

















Posted by pistolpete on January 5, 2008 at 2:00 am
My response is it is counterproductive to combat rhetoric with more rhetoric. Use example. “We’ve parented this way…and it’s worked for us.” Discussing various alternatives as part of a dialogue rather than tossing out hypotheticals as part of a debate is much more effective. This is true not just for parenting, but for other hot topics as well.
Posted by Leah on January 5, 2008 at 2:00 am
I sure wish I knew what to say to these kind of people. There just isn’t any way to criticize someone’s parenting without CRITICIZING their parenting! And nobody responds kindly to THAT. Especially since so often these things are just a judgement call on one side or the other. Like you said, Molly. You were once there. At one time you agreed with this stuff. Your opinion has changed. How would someone take to hearing you tell them they’re doing it wrong, when you yourself used to follow that teaching. I never followed the Pearl’s teachings, but I was sure a lot different when first parenting my oldest.
Just rambling, I guess. But I do wish you (or anyone else for that matter) had an answer on how to handle talking to someone who is extreme in their discipline or role as a husband. Sometimes I feel like I’m supposed to say something, but usually I think “Keep your mouth shut, Leah. Just bite your tongue!” Then again, sometimes I think the Holy Spirit is saying “Do something.”
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But what?
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Posted by pauseforamoment on January 5, 2008 at 2:47 am
I don’t really know. What I have found, though, is that if you relate something to personal experience, people seem to take it much better. We run a home group, and anytime I want to bring correction I do it along the lines of, ‘Yeah, that is a tricky one. I have found in my life that when I struggle with x, y really works for me. People hate to feel judged; they need to know that they are not alone in what they are going through, such as a difficult patch with a child. I obviously have no paradigm to relate to apart from my teaching, but I do sometimes say what works for me in the classroom. I always talk more about myself and my struggles and what I have found working rather than being direct with the person about what they are doing or not doing.
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I have a good friend who is such an encourager to mothers (actually, lots of my friends are this way – they are quicker to encourage and lift up than to judge – I will turn to them over and over, I know, when we finally have babies!). I have been in the shops with her when we have heard and seen a child chucking a huge hissy fit/tantrum. She will go up to that mother and is such a loving and tactful way tell her that her daughter was exactly the same, and that she grew out of it, and not to worry about feeling embarrassed. Most people would look at the mother like she is doing something wrong for having a screaming toddler, but my friend just brings love and acceptance. The mother looked so relieved!
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If I am at the check-out, or anywhere, really, and a kid is acting up or very upset, I will always smile sympathetically and offer some loving comment to the mother. I will try to say something nice about their child, too – anything to offer some sort of solidarity rather than judgement, I guess. You know, most of us are starved for love, and I think if we offer up love it fills a gap in the heart. I wonder with these over-zealous parents if they are not more concerned with appearance and acceptance than anything else? No one can sadly be more vicious or judgemental than other parents, and I wonder if we all just loved and supported each other more things would be easier. Parenting is not a competition. If we didn’t feel judged, maybe we would be less hard on our children? What do you think?
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The other thing I wanted to say is that I LOVE Ann’s blog. It is like sipping a cool glass of water on a hot day. She embodies the love of Jesus in her writing, doesn’t she? Thank you for linking that – I have not read her for very long, and so haven’t read this post.
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I jump into these parenting discussions with trepidation – hope it is ok to post a thought, seeing as I am vastly unqualified to comment, lol, other than my years of teaching!
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Val
Posted by jettybetty on January 5, 2008 at 6:06 am
I kind of change on this constantly, so I hesitate to comment, but here’s what I think today–it may all change by next Wed.
Each parent and each child are different–I am not a big fan of any “system”–I am a big fan of listening to God through the Holy Spirit for each child. I believe God gives children, in part, to show us our dependence on Him. Of course, between parents of one child there needs to be consistency. Otherwise, I am just not sure how another person knows what another parent’s child needs.
Currently, I don’t think it’s my place to say anything. (unless it IS abuse) Like a previous commenter, I like to pick out the positive things I do agree with and encourage them on that.
Bottom line, parenting is a HARD hard job. (Even though I LOVED it) None of us is perfect. I believe I need to extend the grace to others that God has given me–He has had to extend a LOT to me–and I am grateful.
I continue to read every post you write Molly–and it enjoy it! Thanks for taking time to share with us. I don’t comment much right now–we are very busy planning a wedding–our first child gets married very soon now!
Posted by chewymom on January 5, 2008 at 7:29 am
You know what Molly, when I was deep into Ezzo, I was like you with my filters up. Many of the women I count as likeminded friends were my “enemies” on the old Parents Place Ezzo debate board. It did not matter WHAT they said, I could not hear it. And the ones who told horror stories about their babies–well, I suspected they really didn’t know how to “do” Ezzo. It had to be their fault.
The light came on for me when one of the founding families left the Ezzos and I read what they wrote. (Then my own family started crumbling, but that’s another story.) When Eric and Julie Abel left GFI, I emailed him and asked lots of questions. Things started to click for me.
That’s why I decided it was SO important for me to tell my story. I’m not some ignoramus who couldn’t figure out how to do Ezzo stuff right. I was a contact mom! I had personal phone conversations with Anne Marie! I helped run their online forum! Those still deep within the Ezzo camp think I’ve left the faith, I’m sure. But because of my experience (and the ages of my kids, I think) people in general are willing to hear me.
I don’t know how the Pearl’s stuff is set up–if they have leader-types. But once some big Pearl supporters start to see the light, I suspect things will crumble. Meanwhile, I think the best way to combat them is to speak from experience. Lots of people will look at you like you have three heads, but one or two will hear you and relate and red flags will go up. But for many, you just have to pray that God will begin to make them uncomfortable with what they are doing. He can give them that little nagging feeling….
Posted by Lindsey @ enjoythejourney on January 5, 2008 at 10:10 am
I recently posed a question on my blog about how to deal with a lying child. I got responses that ran the gamut between beat them silly to completely ignore it, because children don’t understand what lying is.
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This is the deal with parenting. There are right ways and wrong ways, yes. But there are about 8,000 layers to a parent/child relationship that are UNIQUE to each family and each parent/child. I cannot really parent someone else’s kid, just my own.
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The thought scares me that one day my kids may be in therapy for my parenting mistakes, but truthfully I do the best that I know how to do.
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It may vary and change over the years, and it has so much. I have made many mistakes and will make many more.
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I try not to give much parenting advice to anyone, and I don’t really take other people’s advice on parenting very seriously either. It all goes back to that 8,000 layer thing I said above.
Posted by molleth on January 5, 2008 at 10:20 am
PistolPete, I totally agree with you. I often want to “be cerebral” that way, but it is about the worst approach. All it seems to do is create a, “let’s debate” charge in the air, so the person prone to debate begins defending their cause and becomes that much more entrenched, or, for the person not debate-prone, they just tune out altogether.

There are many GOOD things that can be said about the Pearls, but as a reader said in a private email, what’s bad is HORRIFIC.
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Leah,
The situation you know about is something that SOMEbody needs to say something about…I don’t know what…but those kids are the ones paying the price for everyone’s silence, you know? It’s not fair to them to have to pay for the fact that all the grown ups don’t want to engage their dad…though I certainly wouldn’t want to be in your shoes, either, because dealing with that awful situation is just…crazy…
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Val, that’s WONDERFUl…for those interested, to share one’s own personal stories in a humble but helpful way. I know that’s how I “teach” a lot (well, if that can be called teaching—I think it’s more just like, “discussing/conversing”) and it’s the BEST. And, YES, Ann is such an awesome chick.
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JB, I agree with you fully, unless someone is actually being hurt, and in the case of the Pearls, sometimes that is true and sometimes it isn’t—it all depends on who reads them and doesn’t take them seriously all the time, vs. who reads them like a car manual and takes every single sentance seriously. But there’s enough that’s dangerous about the Pearl stuff that I do try to share (warmly, non-confrontationally yet openly), if the subject comes up, that we used to be Pearl fans but ended up having some strong concerns later. Usually, that’s as far as it gets. *shrugs*
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Chewymom, I feel a bit similar to you, in that I feel like NOT sharing the experiences I’ve observed would be wrong. The Pearls are nowhere near like the Ezzos when it comes to organizational heirarchy/structure. They are more grass-roots based, so there aren’t big leaders who’s defection will make waves. However, there are enough families spread out here and there that the stories will start trickling in. I believe it firmly. The stories I’ve heard thus far are the kind that I just shove off to the side of my head and try not to think about, they make my stomach so sick.
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Lindsey,
LOL! I am so there! I have gone from knowing just how to parent to feeling very much like a total beginner. All I know for sure is: LOVE THEM. How that looks, I think, differs from child to child and home to home and has a multitude of faces. But, I guess I’m saying, there’s a measure of responsibility that I feel when a parent takes a book I gave them and starts swatting their four month old…or when a woman takes a Debi Pearl marriage book that I told her was great, back when, and starts leading classes on it with women in the church. I feel like just as I was vocal in my opinion then, I should be equally vocal now (though vocal doesn’t mean telling them I’m right and they are wrong, haha—just sharing that I have some strong concerns).
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Posted by Lydia on January 5, 2008 at 11:49 am
The lying comment reminded me of something I just read in Marva Collins book “Values,” highly, highly recommended, btw.
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Marva related a story of a child in her class who had a school-wide reputation for stealing. The first day of class she put him in charge of watching over her purse which sat on her desk. The entire year, nothing went missing from her purse–plus, the children began to view that boy with new eyes. Marva related several such stories.
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I believe there are many similar ways to address behavioral issues that BUILD UP our children, redirecting their life and character in positive ways. The goal must be for the sake of the child, NOT because we want them to behave in ways that make life better or more convenient for us.
Posted by barbara on January 5, 2008 at 1:16 pm
thanks for linking to Anne’s blog…how very timely for me to be reading
blessings and keep on the walk of faith!
Posted by sarah on January 5, 2008 at 3:25 pm
Anne’s post made me weep. The Pearl’s teaching as well as “BabyWise” have been huge roadblocks for me personally. They did not help me to grow in Grace or look to God for strength and wisdom. We are speaking about our children not robots that simply need to be re-progammed. Unfortunately, although I loved being a new mom, I felt woefully unprepared in my new role. In my fear, it was nice to hear wonderful “formulas” that promised “success.” A heavy price was payed for laying my fear, faith, and child at the feet of a few authors rather than at the feet of my good and gracious Father.
Posted by Cassandra on January 5, 2008 at 4:39 pm
I’ve never heard of Ezzo. When was it big? That must show I am a young parent, or something. I got the first Pearl book when I was a teenager babysitting for some people. They had a whole box. They were very, um, zealous about handing them out. I like the whole concept of training your children,(not necessarily with swatting five hundred times in a row… there are other ways of training…) but I also disagree with alot, too. Like the whole spanking a baby thing. I actually know some people that carried a spoon and swatted their two-week old. Pretty sick, huh? Now, the Peals have actually never said, ‘Spank a baby’, but is implied that you need to start swatting at a super young age. And I don’t agree with that. At all. It’s like a buffet- eat what you like, leave the rest. For me, I just have to cry out daily to God, because this whole parenting thing is pretty daunting to me. Having four children five and under, I am just exhausted half the time. Sometimes I can barely make it through the day, let alone teach my littles life lessons! Only by the grace of God….
Posted by Jenna on January 5, 2008 at 5:00 pm
Quite frankly, I would say that it seems mighty rude for folks to offer up advice that wasn’t asked for. Maybe other people don’t mind so much, but that hasn’t been my experience.
Posted by TulipGirl on January 5, 2008 at 6:57 pm
What Val wrote is so good. . .
I’ve had IRL friends who have asked me to share more about what I do / don’t do parenting-wise, because I’ve been just-vocal-enough that they know I don’t do Ezzo / Pearl / punitive anymore. Not ask me, like I’m an expert. (I’m not!) But ask me because I’ve been-there-done-that.
(Online, I’ve been more vocal. But then again, you know that! *wink*)
I “knew” Chewy back when I was a brand new mom and needed support which I found at the GFI Forum. I knew her when it closed and I was looking for support at the PP board. It helps having known the same moms for years who have gone through ups and downs in parenting, and have shared what they’ve learned along the way.
Posted by molleth on January 5, 2008 at 7:20 pm
I hear ya, Jenna, and agree. Telling other people how to run their lives is just NOT cool. I don’t appreciate it from ANY side or position. I feel controlled and/or judged and it generally makes me want to RUN. I don’t want to be the kind of person who does that to other people, either.
Btw, I agree that the Pearls have some wonderful things they teach. When I was a Pearl lover, the thing I got the most out of them was to *be* with your kids, to involve them in your life, to look at them and SMILE…those were the things I ate up like chocolate. While I did “train” Pearl-style, I still tended to skim over stuff like switching very young infants (like 4-5 mos), because I didn’t really think they were SERIOUS…

Girlfriend MUST be good! lol… I love what you share, though. There are SO SO SO many ways we can build up our children. Punitive reactions work, sure, but are they best? (Are they the best thing for building a kid, which truly is our goal)? Good stuff, thanks for sharing.
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However, the situations I’m talking about involve parents switching VERY VERY VERY young children. To me, that crosses a line, I think. One has to weigh the seeming rudeness of offering up unsolicited advice with the wellbeing of the two month old who can’t talk for him or herself and tell the parent that being switched for crying is horrifically detrimental to the infants development. (It’s much like abortion: we speak up for the unborn baby, because they can’t speak for themselves). .
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TulipGirl,
Thanks for sharing. I’m glad you were bold enough to share your concerns, even at the risk of attack (from, like, say, ME, for example). *innocent looking smile*
.I love sharing some out of my own story, my own personal concerns/history/etc…I think it makes it so much less confrontational…yet sometimes no matter what one does, it’s going to be percieved as confrontational. It is so nice to have other parents to learn from, just like you said. I know that Ann’s post about her own experience with the Pearls was one of the final straws for me that helped me see it’s not just “a few people reading the Pearls wrongly,” but rather that something, somewhere, is horribly wrong with what the Pearls are saying.
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Cassandra,
Big hug, girl. I have SO been in your shoes, and it makes me exhausted just thinking about it! Keep your chin up. They grow.
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Sarah,
Ann’s post on the Pearls is awesome, I agree. And I love your comment. You sum it all up perfectly. I am so glad that our God is a God of second chances.
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Barbara, Ann is a GEM!
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Lydia, cool book recommendation, especially since that’s all I am hearing about everytime we talk on the phone…Marva, Marva, Marva…
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Posted by April on January 5, 2008 at 8:52 pm
I think the whole “this works for us” thing is a good way to talk to friends with different parenting styles, too.
and tried to do things like she does. But I have realized through reading her for the last few months/ year-or-so that she is a very, very different person than I. What she sees in the Pearls and what I saw were different things.
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Also, I think Ann is right — there are some mothers who can do the physical discipline thing without anger, frustration, anxiety, judgment, perfectionism, etc. I think one of the bloggers I read most regularly is one of these. She has many children and speaks vocally in support of the Pearls’ methods. For a while, I wanted to be just exactly like her
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I remember reading Ann’s piece on Choosing Hime back in the day. I was new to the conservative blogging world and didn’t really understand much of it. But reading it again tonight, Ann’s story really resonated with me. When we were in Pearl-land/ Raising Godly Tomatoes-dom, I expected more out of my children than I will ever be able to achieve myself and that was sucking the joy out of this family. I feel like I’m still emerging from that sojourn through a dark valley.
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Actually, this is tangential, at best, but…I’m embarrassed to admit this, but I never realized before your series that the whole “we are inherently sinful beings” theology is a foundational piece of these methodologies. I was just kind of gobstruck by that insight which should have been very obvious to me. In my world in my particular church, we almost NEVER approach anything from that understanding. We almost always start with the divine imprint. We also tend to focus on resurrection vs. crucifixion. Forgiveness is always bigger than obedience. I know that this way of thinking has its own faults and flaws, but I was kind of shocked that I had been so unknowingly influenced by a theology that is so other-than-me/us.
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I wonder, back to your original question, how many folks are aware that their theology is or is not informing their parenting? And, out of curiousity — do most conservative/ evangelical/ fundamentals operate first from the we-are-sinners understanding? Or is that just a reformed thing?
Posted by molleth on January 5, 2008 at 9:49 pm
Wow, April, that was SO good. LOTS of good thoughts to chew on there, thanks (and I’d add to the underlying theological foundation behind these methodologies: the idea that punishment and/or law can reform/redeem/sanctify).
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When we were in Pearl-land/ Raising Godly Tomatoes-dom, I expected more out of my children than I will ever be able to achieve myself and that was sucking the joy out of this family.
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EXACTLY. You just summed fifty posts up in one sentance.
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I feel like I’m still emerging from that sojourn through a dark valley.
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I understand. Totally.
Have a warm squeeze from a sister in Alaska.
Posted by Dana on January 6, 2008 at 3:00 am
I don’t know. I have tried, and somehow am continually drawn back to the conversation. I was first drawn to a cordial little group as a new homeschooler. I finally found a group of ladies who were fully committed to Christ and had the passion I was looking for as I struggled between churches that were rather bland and without passion.
But there were little things that kept cropping up that didn’t make sense. At first, I felt wholly inadequate, but gradually, enough things came up that I began to realize this wasn’t about me. There was something behind what they were saying that went deeper…I shared some struggles I was having with my son and got nothing but condemnation in return. My head spun. These people didn’t know me. They didn’t know how I parented. They only assumed that because I was having these issues, that xyz must be true. And later, when I shared the triumph of a compliment to my son, the discussion focused not on this event which was huge in our lives, but on what kind of church I must attend because of the music selection.
I get frustrated and give up on a regular basis. But I always come back to that first impression I had of the first homeschooling group I joined. These people are passionate. They love the Lord. They are willing to do anything and make any sacrifice. But somewhere in there, there is a flaw in their understanding. And it is preventing them from understanding the fullness of the gift we have been given in Christ.
Judgment is only part of the story. Grace is what the whole of scripture is about.
Posted by sunniemom on January 6, 2008 at 12:27 pm
I have been in Fundie churches all my life- everything from Pearlites to Hylesites. There are balanced folks out there,(and I am SO thankful for the church I am in now) but balance doesn’t come naturally to human beings, IMO.
When it comes to practices that are damaging and potentially dangerous (which is everything from using the rod w/ babies to letting them junk food 24/7) I always ask if their conviction is from a person or from the Lord.
I realize the Lord can use books and other resources to bring about conviction and change, but that conviction and change will always be consistent with the Word if it is genuinely from God.
So if someone identifies themselves with Ezzo or the Pearls or Doug Phillips, I wonder why they are so quick to label themselves with the name of another faulty human, and not the name of Christ? KWIM?
Posted by molleth on January 6, 2008 at 6:52 pm
Dana,
What a great comment. Thank you for sharing.
Sunniemom, you too. Good thoughts…
Posted by Marcia on January 6, 2008 at 7:16 pm
I know nothing about parenting. Not one thing.
I used to think I knew it all. When my first, T, was a baby, my husband and I threw our whole lives into him.
My sister had a little boy 10 months older than T. A was a brat; had no manners, and spent most of his life either in daycare while his parents worked, or at my parents’ house on the weekends because his parents wanted to go out and do stuff.
Man, were dh and I smug. Our kid was getting all the parental attention he needed, and would obviously turn out much more emotionally healthy and successful than his cousin.
Flash forward 18 years. One of these cousins went through Catholic school never receiving anything less than an A, graduated as valedictorian, and received a full scholarship to Notre Dame.
The other just flunked out of his first quarter at community college.
You wanna guess which is which?
They’re both good kids with good hearts and they both love their God. They’ll both be fine.
And I wouldn’t trade my little flunkie for a thousand valedictorians.
But my smugness has been thoroughly laid to rest.
Here’s the thing about parenting: there are NO easy formulas. This isn’t math, where if you put in x you will get y. You may very well get, say, b.
But that’s okay. The joy is in the journey, as they say.
Posted by chewymom on January 7, 2008 at 7:16 am
I just found this website that might be helpful to those trying to show people the truth about the Pearls: http://stoptherod.net/ttuac.html
Seems to me it might open the eyes of those who think the Pearls are just harmless, and that anyone opposed is not reading their material accurately….(Molly–hope it’s okay to put that link–if not, please delete!)
Posted by Cara on January 7, 2008 at 8:32 am
See, that website above is an example of something I’ve found to not be effective.
The people who like the Pearls (and I like a lot of what the Pearls write, so I understand) would usually accuse someone of taking quotes out of context when shown that website.
I’m looking more for a way to talk to people in conversation without putting them on the defensive, just to share what I’ve learned about not using punitive discipline without turning it into a full on debate.
I love what April wrote also
Posted by molleth on January 7, 2008 at 10:21 am
Chewymom, that’s FINE, and I’m glad you shared that link, since it’s very germane to the conversation, though I do agree with Cara. On people who are already strongly pro-Pearl, stuff like that is very ineffectual (”You’re taking them out of context…”). A cerebral argument/appeal doesn’t work in those situations. *shrugs*
Posted by chewymom on January 8, 2008 at 7:53 am
Y’all may be right about websites like the one I linked above, but looking back, I do think things like that about the Ezzos made me question DEEP inside. So deep, I didn’t really realize it, but there were teeny tiny seeds of doubt nagging at me, “what if this is true?” I don’t think that would have ever been enough to totally get me away from Ezzo, but I think that plus everything else was all part of it. Just wee little seeds….
Anyway, it’s probably not the most effective tool for everyone, especially if it would shut down communication, but still–for some it might plant those seeds of doubt….
Posted by molleth on January 8, 2008 at 10:45 am
Yeah, good point. I guess it would be better for me to say that sort of argument didn’t work for *me.* But that doesn’t mean it won’t help others.
Love ya, Chewy.