This was an excellent post (The Effect of Biblical Womanhood on a Woman’s Self-Image), albeit a few years old, from the Happy Feminist. I came from the world Crystal writes about (here, the comments being very enlightening) and I know well the way one thinks within it.
It is fair to say that these women, on the one hand, see NO disparity between calling themselves equal and then, in the same breath, share that their femaleness makes them more emotional, more inclined toward error, etc. In other words, they are practicing double-speak. That, or advocating a kind of equality that is much more limited than the concept of equality most concieve of.
I believe these women are well-intentioned and good hearted. They truly want what is best and believe that they are following what is best.
Note the preconcieved ideas inherent in the discussion there, though. “Head” takes on a full meaning that is NOT it’s actual Greek meaning, for example. There are so many concepts READ INTO the text, instead of extrapolated FROM the text.
That part troubles me. In the name of God, is it possible that patriarchy involves practices/philosophies that are far from His heart for man and woman? As a Christian who does not see patriarchy supported by the Bible, I think so. Genesis 1 and 2, where we see man and woman before the Fall broke our world, shows me two beings who were different and yet stood side by side (not one over the other, not one under the other).
Did practicing ”Biblical” patriarchy in my own home set us free or hem us in? I would say that the 8 or so years of “Biblical” patriarchy did more damage to our relationship than anything else—damage to both of us.
I love my husband. I don’t even have strong enough words to use—in fact, saying “I love him” sounds so empty when I compare it to the way I feel about him deep within my heart. I value his input and his opinion, and I enjoy serving him and showing him honor, but I do those things because I see him as a brother in Christ—-as a soul loved by God—-as a friend and as a lover. I do NOT serve him because he is male and I am female.
Jesus called us all to the Law of Love, not to the law of gender roles. After all, what are the two greatest commandments? Yet ever since the Fall, we’ve been preoccupied with gender roles (Gen. 3:16 promised as much, I suppose). Considering the press some “ministries” give to the salvation found through adopting ”Biblical” roles, I find it interesting that the current level of thundering applause for male/female roles (found in much of the ultra-conservative Christian sub-culture) is strikingly absent when we read through the four Gospels. Either the Gospels are out of balance…or maybe, just maybe, we are.
The way to a good marriage relationship is not through gender roles (though one can use those as a vehicle, because there’s nothing wrong with gender roles in and of themselves. In fact, adopting roles in a relationship may be a very functional helpful thing)!
But what did Jesus want for men and women? Did He want sharp distinctions between men and women? Did He want women in dresses and men in pants? Did He want women to think of themselves as easily decieved and needful of male authority? Did He want men to see women as creatures needing controlled/led from birth to death?
Or did He talk about things faaaar above our silly little human pre-occupations? Did He move out of the realm of our fallen little visions and spent His time painting us beautiful pictures like Vines and Branches and the Life ebbing and flowing within them, Shepherds and Sheep and the valley pastures and the trusted voice, Grace Beyond Measure that can come like rain on the dry field, Captives Set Free from pits that they’d long since given up hope of escaping, Blind Eyes Made Whole and seeing for the first time shapes and figures slowly coming into focus, a world that had been hidden in darkness now coming into form…
I feel like that about discovering Love.
Love delights.
Love respects.
Love rejoices.
Love loves.
Despite the rhetoric to the contrary, gender roles are NOT required in order to have a happy home. Note that the Sermon on the Mount, etc, did not involve treatise on the roles of the sexes. Note that Paul’s words in Ephesians were to a culture that PRACTICED patriarchy (of the very strict sort!). When Paul told slaves to obey their masters, was he advocating slavery, or was he just speaking to what existed in that society? When Paul told women to submit to their husbands, was he advocating patriarchy, or was he just repeating the already existing legal code in that world?
When Paul told men to love their wives as Christ loved the Church, was he advocating patriarchy?
I would say that the correct answer is, No. He blew patriarchy to smithereens.
If you love someone as you love your own self, will you put them under your rule? Will you see them as an object to manage? Does a head view a body as a seperate entity from itself?
The rulers of that world (the men) were told to love the underlings of that world (the women) as Christ loved His Bride. So how did Christ love the Church in the book of Ephesians? Does Ephesians 1-2 talk about how Christ rules over the Church?
No.
It talks about how Christ raised the Church up to His level, put her in a place of rulership next to Him, put all things under Her feet!
In the name of doing things “Biblically,” how the patriarchs miss the thrust of Ephesians. It’s not a book about who-is-under-who in a heirarchy. It’s a book about the power of Love bringing UP what the world (and sin and death) has kept low. And that’s a Gospel I want to be a part of spreading.

















Posted by jettybetty on February 18, 2008 at 4:05 am
That’s the gospel I want to spread, too. It seems so clear to me that’s what God wants. **wink**
Posted by Andrea on February 18, 2008 at 8:14 am
Molly,
there are so many different things that want to joyfully explode out of me in response to this post, but they would make, I am certain, absolutely no sense to anybody reading them, so I’ll sit on them for a little while yet
Suffice to say that the whole time I was nodding and thinking “yes, yes, YES!”
I’ve spent almost a year now staring at some of the patriarchal teachings and being absolutely confounded as to where my Jesus was in any of that. It really is, as you said, a lot of double talk– I find words coming out of both sides of peoples’ mouths, and I am so bewildered because in all of it, I just can’t see HIM. I agree with you that I don’t doubt these women are wholeheartedly seeking to follow God, and I believe that most of the men are doing the same, but . . . I get so frustrated because in most of what I have read in support of patriarchy, I just can’t find Christ.
I’m so grateful to have your perspective on these things, since I have never “been there, done that” with this situation and as a result I feel handicapped when it comes to trying to wrap my head around this particular mindset. Several times I’ve felt like it would be so much easier to just walk away and let other people sort it out (my preferred MO, incidentally!) but . . . God just won’t let me
So I thank Him for you, and I thank you for this; right now, it is exactly what I need.
Posted by Alaina on February 18, 2008 at 8:39 am
I really enjoyed this post because you are right, we take certain verses totally out of context and then make them the biblical mandate for life. It makes no sense. Proof-texting will never convince me of anything.
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The thing that makes me the most sad is reading the comments of the women saying things about needing their husbands to control their emotions and make decisions because we women are more emotional. My question becomes – are women actually more emotional beings OR have we created a world where men are not allowed to be emotional?
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I totally agree with your post here, Molly, and I am really sad for women who believe they are the ‘weaker vessel’. And that they believe this is equality. It just isn’t my definition of equality.
Posted by Alison on February 18, 2008 at 9:28 am
This was a great post, Molly. I have to say in response to Alaina that I feel I am definitely more emotional than my husband, BUT I don’t think that makes him more qualified to make a decision. I’ve accepted that this is just me. While some women can debate hot topics and think on their feet, I get upset. I either get angry or I cry. That’s why many times I write about things instead of talking about them–at least in groups.
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I’m just navigating all this egalitarian thinking myself. I don’t think we have to be the same to be equal or to have an equal say. Maybe women are generally more emotional. I think I am, but I’m sure there are exceptions. Does saying that women are more emotional automatically suggest that they need protection from their emotions? I don’t think so. And my husband is pretty emotional, for a guy.
Posted by molleth on February 18, 2008 at 10:42 am
Ooooh, one of my favorite topics…or should I say, one of my most HATED topics (when I hear a program about how “emotional women are” on Christian radio or something like that).
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I HATE THAT ARGUMENT!
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(No strong feelings here)… LOL…
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I think women are only more emotional if we define emotion as *crying.* Since crying is not considered “masculine” in our culture, women cry more.
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Women used to be considered more emotional in Victorian England because anytime something awful or surprising would happen, they’d faint. Turns out, it wasn’t emotional, it was the fact that they had on incredibly tight corsets that made it impossible for them to gasp properly, so they’d pass out due to lack of oxygen. *roll eyes*
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I grew up in a home with a mother who was much more logical than my father. She would cry, though. Particularly when he went off into angry rages. Are angry rages not emotional…?
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My father is an emotional man. He’s also 6′4 and STRONG. He’s incredibly masculine. He’s a logical genius with a frighteningly high IQ. And he’s incredibly EMOTIONAL.
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My husband’s best friend is almost identical. He’s bigger than 6′4 and has MASSIVE biceps—a pro-football type of body. He’s into hunting, fishing, and has done guiding work for hunters, etc. He’s about as manly-man as they get. And he’s also incredibly EMOTIONAL.
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Both of these men have wives that are NOT incredibly emotional.
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It’s like the Myers-Brigg tests…you either have a more emotional bent (Feeling) to your personality or you don’t. My husband and I both don’t. We can get emotional and we have emotions, but we are not emotional-based people.
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When you take the Myers-Brigg test, whether you end up on the more emotional (Feeling) side or the logical (Thinking) side has NOTHING to do with whether you are male or female. It has to do with your *personality.*
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So I tend to think we’re predisposed to thinking that women are more emotional, because, well… we’ve been taught that.
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And we also tend to define “emotional” as being the way that WOMEN often express their emotions in our culture. But have you ever looked into the crowd at a football game? Anyone want to tell me those fans (most of which are male) aren’t EMOTIONAL???
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When it comes to actual differences between the sexes, the truth is, at least via studies, that women tend to be more RELATIONAL, *not* more EMOTIONAL.
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Therefore when it comes to relationships, women may tend to get more emotional, because what’s being dealt with is the woman’s most important thing. Men are no less emotional, they will just tend to GET emotional about different things and/or show their emotions in a different way.
Posted by Alison on February 18, 2008 at 11:24 am
Oh, wow, Molly. I think I was totally taking the bait and thinking of emotion as crying–except that I did mention I get angry OR cry. But when I said maybe women are generally more emotional I was thinking of crying. I totally agree with your comment. It makes sense to me that women tend to be more relational. And when I said my husband was emotional for a guy, I meant that he gets choked up over things more than most guys. Actually, I think he may be less emotional than a lot of guys b/c he is so not an angry man.
Posted by Psalmist on February 18, 2008 at 11:31 am
Yeah, anyone who says women are more emotional than men haven’t been the passenger in the car with some men, or haven’t observed some men viewing sporting events.
(Not totally joking here.)
Let me add “amen” to your entry here, Molly. Excellent. I’m keeping this quote in my quote file, it’s so good:
“[The Bible is] a book about the power of Love bringing UP what the world (and sin and death) has kept low. And that’s a Gospel I want to be a part of spreading.”
Posted by molleth on February 19, 2008 at 12:26 am
Alison,
I hear what you are saying. I appreciate your comments (and yours too, JB, Alaina, and Andrea, and Psalmist).
Posted by sue on February 19, 2008 at 5:14 am
Read the links and had to refrain from banging my head on the keyboard. Maybe I’m jealous cause I don’t live in a ‘Leave it to Beaver’ world. Ward makes all the rules while working outside the home. I can vacumn in heels and pearls, have great hair, white teeth , super kids,and God’s Blessing, if only I would embrace patriarchy! Since I’m too emotional to decide anything, I think I’ll just sing ‘If I only had a brain’ while wiping off the toaster. LOL!! My husband doesn’t know the patriarchry cult exists and I want to keep it that way…What’s Not to like about it if your a guy????
Posted by Lindsey on February 19, 2008 at 6:29 am
Hi molly! my first comment here since my blog went black (ETJ is now gone…) I loved this post because you summed it up so very well.
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I’ve been in and around the patriarchy stuff for awhile. I’m embarassed to admit that yes, I was once one of those “weaker vessels” waiting to be filled up not by God, but by my husband who had direct access to Him, and I simply did not. (eye roll)
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Honest to Betsy, I don’t think people can realize how you and I feel unless they’ve been like us—mired in the trenches of patriarchy, defending it, living it, and then WHAMO, we’re out and we’re rethinking EVERYTHING under the sun!
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I’ve talked about it so much with my slightly-feminist mother, and she’s helped me see things differently. While I may get flamed for this, I truly think it is true in most cases. Women and men, but especially women who “fall” for patriarchy and the whole role thing are weak and struggle with their identity. Patriarchy gives them an identity, a role, a definition to live by…and…therefore gives them some sense of self-worth. Lots of us (including myself, this is the reason I fell for it) want to KNOW where we fit in. I want someone to tell me to do this or that and act this way and I’ll fit in. Patriarchy does that.
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The problem is, truly living free in Jesus Christ does that too. There are just less rules, regulations, boundaries, and such. Some things Christ requires US to figure out on our own, and well, patriarchy will TELL us, so why even keep Jesus in the loop anymore?
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I’ve also noticed in my experiences that it is WOMEN who are buying into this stuff and dragging (sometimes willing, sometimes not) their husbands right along to “please please please! be the leader/head/man of the house!” Sometimes they do it, and other times we women try to live the VF lifestyle with a reluctant husband. So we fake it as best as we can with a reluctant spouse, which allthewhile defeats the whole purpose, doesn’t it?
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The men who are into the patriarchy thing without being drug in by their wives are vastly control freaks who seek to elevate themselves to a status closer to God. I’ve even heard it preached in my circles that the HUSBAND is the only way that the wife is sanctified. What? He’s the only access to the Throne of God? Didn’t Jesus come to do that for all kind, Greek, Gentile or Jew, Man or Woman?
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When I came out of patriarchy I was rather depressed because I found my entire faith was turned upside down on my head. I didn’t know what I believed anymore. And, I’m still working it out. I still have great issues to deal with as I come out into the light of Christ. But it is a WONDERFUL place to be, confused or not, knowing that my Savior loves me without a bunch of rules, regulations, pearl necklaces, and whatnot
Posted by God made me female and God loves me female! « the Hope of His Calling on February 19, 2008 at 7:31 am
[...] 19, 2008 by Charis I read a moving post yesterday on Molly’s blog. She links to a place with post after post of Christian women accepting as a matter of fact that [...]
Posted by teachergirl on February 19, 2008 at 7:33 am
Lindsey,
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“Patriarchy gives them an identity, a role, a definition to live by…and…therefore gives them some sense of self-worth. Lots of us (including myself, this is the reason I fell for it) want to KNOW where we fit in. I want someone to tell me to do this or that and act this way and I’ll fit in. Patriarchy does that.”
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Yes!! That is exactly (or one major reason, anyway) why I was so drawn to patriarchy, and one reason it was so hard to leave. Leaving patriarchy meant leaving behind my identity. It was a hard road, and I admit to being angry with God for a while. But it truly is in Him that we find rest and peace and know who we are. I’m still working a lot of stuff out too.
Posted by Charis on February 19, 2008 at 7:34 am
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I used to be right there with those women agreeing with the lies. Underlying my self-rejection and self-deprecation -deep down inside- I really believed that God loves His sons more than His daughters, that He prefers sons… There were even some scriptures which I thought “confirmed” that. Really, that is a LIE right from the pit of hell. And I honesty wonder how many women AND men -deep down inside- (behind the denial and the protestation) believe that to be a woman is inferior and less desirable than to be a man.
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1 Peter 3 refers to woman as “the weaker vessel”.
This is not a defect,
but by God’s design and intentional on God’s part.
Self rejection and self hatred is sin.
God made me female and God loves me female!
HE rejoices over me with singing
I am HIS beloved
Zephaniah 3:17 “The LORD your God is with you, he is mighty to save. He will take great delight in you, he will quiet you with his love, he will rejoice over you with singing.”
Posted by monika on February 19, 2008 at 8:18 am
Molly, your words are about how Christ treated the church are just heartbreaking and wonderful!
Charis, you are SO right.
Something has been on my heart for a while, and I wonder if anyone has any perspective on it. In the post and dicussion on Crystal’s website, someone says that men only are commanded to love with agape love, and women just have to give phileo love. (they say this in the Botkin’s book too) If that’s really in the Bible, that would really imply that women are lesser Christians, that they aren’t called to grow into the image of Christ to the degree that men are, wouldn’t it? This upsets me deeply.
Posted by Charis on February 19, 2008 at 9:03 am
Not sure how they can biblically justify limiting the sanctifying power to males??? Supernatural, sanctifying power of a believer upon spouse and children is a biblical promise… not through gender, though. The sanctifying power comes through believing:
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I have been pondering (here): what if (pardoxically) the passage in 1 Tim 2:11-15 is far from a restriction of women, but a promise of hope, restoration, AND sanctifying power?!?!
Posted by Charis on February 19, 2008 at 9:25 am
Dear Crystal,
Here are two links to all the occurraces of the two “agape love” words in the Bible agapao and agape. Scrolling through the verses will show you that ALL Christians are called to grow in agape Love.
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Perhaps they were referring to the instructions for marriage where only men are singled out and instructed to “love” while wives are instructed to “phobeo”. Eph 5:33 “however, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects (phobeo) her husband”
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Personally, I take God’s ommision of commanding the wife to “LOVE” as merciful on God’s part toward wives. In a painful, difficult marriage “Respect” behaviors are much easier to muster up than love feelings. A wife married to a difficult man has one less thing to beat herself up over. She need not feel guilty for not feeling “love”.
Posted by Andrea on February 19, 2008 at 11:16 am
Lindsey, you said that especially women who “fall” for patriarchy and the whole role thing are weak and struggle with their identity
That really hit home for me, and seems to fit with much of what I’ve seen. I wonder if that’s why we see so many teenage girls and younger women getting really caught up in this– it seems to be an age and stage where girls do tend to have some real crises of self, and I think that finding something that basically outlines every detail of who and what they’re “supposed” to be would doubtless be a great relief for many of them; it’s certainly much simpler than the uncertainty that comes of simply walking by faith, and letting God refine us according to our individual personalities and callings!
Posted by Psalmist on February 19, 2008 at 11:20 am
But agape love IS required of ALL Christians. That it is not specifically mentioned separately for wives does not exempt wives from practicing agape love even toward sinful, unloving, disobedient husbands.
I concede that it’s highly difficult to do so. But we’re never promised in Scripture that loving as Christ loves is easy.
Posted by Psalmist on February 19, 2008 at 11:21 am
Love cannot be feeling-based. Biblical love is an active verb, not a passive (feeling) noun.
Posted by Charis on February 19, 2008 at 1:56 pm
Marriage is difficult when there are “issues” and lots of negative feelings… and God knew the confusion we would have over that. I still think it is HIS mercy that there is no “love your husband” anywhere…
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There IS “love your enemy” which is agapeo, and I can imagine the “feelings” can be quite conflicted there. Although OTH I really don’t buy the whole, “love is not a feeling, it is an act of the will”. Yes, love is acting in the other’s best interest but marriage is pretty empty without love feelings. And such a marriage is a very poor reflection of the relationship between Christ and the church IMHO… because I KNOW that Christ LOVES me and HIS love has feelings with it- HE is passionate.
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But-thankfully- the wife is not told that the “love” part is her responsibility in the marriage. She has the phobeo and hupotasso part. If he isn’t doing his part, she can still do hers because her part can be done on the outside without any good feelings toward the husband on the inside.
Posted by Jenn on February 19, 2008 at 2:25 pm
Coming out of my “lurker” status (finally!) to ask a question out of genuine curiosity. I was not raised “fundamentalist” but very much under the “husband is the head” mentality. I have so loved your posts, Molly, and have found myself nodding and saying “yes!yes!yes!” more times than I can count. I can’t tell you how many books that I have read that have been to help me fight my “sinful” nature of being “strong” so that I could fall under the leadership of my husband. Did I mention he wasn’t overly interested in that role?! That, too, was chalked up in the books to the “curse”. I have felt like I have been trying to fit round me into a square hole. Where can I get more info. on this?
Posted by Alaina on February 19, 2008 at 2:47 pm
Charis, I want to understand what you are saying – and I am trying – but I don’t get it. Are you saying that, biblically, husbands are to love their wives and wives are submit to their husbands and that these two things are mutually exclusive? Meaning – husbands don’t need to submit and wives don’t need to love? I don’t think that is what you are saying, but I want to understand what you are trying to say.
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I disagree about love. I agree with Psalmist. Love is not based in feeling. For love to be true, it has to have a center based on more than just feeling. Feeling is a portion of love, but love is not based on feeling. Sometimes I love my husband, but I really don’t like him at all!
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And Jenn, I totally hear you. Very square peg, very round hole. A book that really helped me was “Discovering Biblical Equality”. It is so frustrating to have leadership gifts, given by the Spirit of God, and be told that they are not allowed to be used because of gender. I found myself saying, so why did God give me these gifts if I cannot use them in my marriage relationship or church settings?
Posted by Charis on February 19, 2008 at 3:26 pm
Thank you for trying to understand, Alaina. Sorry my communication on this is garbled…
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I believe that the Biblical ideal for marriage is Beautiful Symmetry and mutuality accompanied by love WITH feelings and passion… but how many are not living in the Biblical ideal? In the non-ideal cases, does the wife have an excuse to neglect what God said was her responsibility? I don’t think so… and that is why I think HE did not give HER the “love” assignment. I can’t speak for every woman, but when my spirit is being crushed constantly, I am unable to feel love- but I can behave respectfully and submissively (by God’s grace).
Posted by monika on February 19, 2008 at 3:26 pm
rereading my old comment I see I wrote the word “are” when I should have written “on”.
anyway, thank you, Charis and Psalmist. Charis, I’m not sure what I think about what you say about love and marriage, because while I think love and emotions are inseparably wrapped up together, emotions are not the test of love, and so is a man who feels nothing for his wife on the surface because of depression, something she did, ect, but still cares for her and listens to her and talks to her, not obeying God? I’m not married, btw, so this is not personal for me, at least yet. But I see now, more clearly, (though part of me was always believing it or at least wanting to) that all Christians are called to agape. I guess when you step back and look at the whole Bible and Christ’s heart, it does show through. I am still confused, (quite a bit!! Especially when I read stuff like the Botkins saying Scripture never commands women to die for men, but it does vice versa) but thank you, ladies.
Posted by Psalmist on February 19, 2008 at 3:41 pm
Oh, Charis, I didn’t mean to imply that there shouldn’t ALSO be feelings of love, especially between a husband and wife. Believe me, I know more about living with a man who doesn’t have the feelings OR the behavior of love, more than I’ve ever disclosed here.
However, we who belong to Christ CAN and SHOULD love (verb) regardless of how we feel, and regardless of how lovelessly the other deals with us. Knowing that so many couples face difficulties such as you’ve described is one of the reasons I pray for married couples all the time. The apostle Paul was right when he said that it was easier for those who are single, at least in that regard. We’re not yoked with a fellow sinner. We may ache badly for the lack of a loving partner in life, but we don’t have to ache for the particular loneliness that comes from a loveless marriage.
Please forgive me if I’ve offended or hurt you. I didn’t mean to.
Posted by Charis on February 19, 2008 at 3:45 pm
Yes, he would be obeying God.
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Doesn’t scripture tell all Christians “those who lose their life for My sake will find it”? Do you know in John 13 where Jesus washes the disciples feet, Monika? Remember how He tells his disciples to “do likewise”? A few years back I was tickled to figure out the two biblical accounts of people who were recognized for their acts of footwashing. A disciple who hears His Word and follows Him is a disciple- whether male or female.
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Blessings to you dear sister. You are asking good questions and you have wise insights.
Posted by monika on February 19, 2008 at 4:00 pm
Oh, I remember those places in the Bible and I see how they fit together! Thank you, Charis! And same to you.
Posted by molleth on February 19, 2008 at 4:45 pm
Good conversation around here.
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Personally, I don’t think that Ephesians is giving us “assignments.” I think it was a passage written to people in a culture who needed to deal with stuff, but that it’s no more an “assignment” than the advice given to slaves was, or the admonition not to eat food offered to idols was.
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Those were the ways that Love might look in that particular culture. Eating food offered to idols or NOT eating food offered to idols is neither here nor there. The issue is the Law of Love (Loving God [which means also loving yourself, since God calls you worth loving] and Loving Others).
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So how does Love look in a severely patriarchal world? Is it Love to just go gung-ho, dump the patriarchal system altogether and break the law by telling women NOT to submit?
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Because if Paul told women not to submit to the patriarchal heirarchy, he would, in fact, be telling them to break the law of their country. Just as Paul would have been telling slaves to break the law if Paul would have told slaves to stop obeying their masters.
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It is sometimes Love to go gung-ho. But often, Love is very gentle, very gracious, very cautious… And I think that’s what Paul was doing with both slavery and marriage norms. He gently and graciously subverted two “unchallengable” systems.
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He told slaves to continue to obey. But he also told Masters the unthinkable: that slaves were on par with masters in God’s economy. Which then brings up a whole mess of questions: if slaves are on par with God, then is it right that I *own* my fellow man? etc, etc, etc…
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And Paul told wives to continue to submit. But he also told husbands the unthinkable: that wives were on par with husbands in God’s economy—that a man’s prayers won’t even be heard if he is not treating his wife with love! (1 Peter 3) That a man is to love his wife as Christ loved the church (Eph. 1-2, He brought the Church up to His level and rules over all things WITH her!).
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So was Paul writing rules for men and women: “Men, you love, and women, you submit?” I don’t think so. I think he was just trying to express how Love might look in the highly heirarchal culture that the early Church lived in.
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We need to be cautious about viewing Ephesians 5 as a workbook assignment. It isn’t. It was a letter, written to a people in the heart of a world where everything was seen as a heirarchy.
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We have to be careful not to make the mistake of thinking that their culture was a good thing. It wasn’t. It was just where they lived. And the point of the incarnation is that God comes…right to where we live. Love can live with us—-where they lived then, and where I live now.
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God’s Son came in that way, and so did the Bible: a real thing, written in real time, by real people: messes and all. It’s not a textbook/workbook type of book. Just like God’s Messiah wasn’t a superhero with a red cape and spandex.
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After getting over the initial shock of realizing that the Mess is Holy, it has only made the Gospel that much more precious to me. God-with-Us really means what it says.
Posted by monika on February 19, 2008 at 5:10 pm
Molly, I so hear what you are saying. I don’t neccessarily agree with it, or all of it, because all this stuff is something I just need to study out a lot more on my own.
But it makes a lot of sense. My question, when it comes to this type of argument, is “Does the husband have no special leadership at all, whatsoever?” Because the Bible does say marriage is a picture of Christ and the church, and that’s something that can’t change with time or culture. And Christ does still guide us and give us commands, (in a very untyrannical way!) even as we rule with Him. And I do think that the Bible can often be interpreted in a very mechanistic way, and we don’t look at the heart of it and the context. Thanks for the reminder that God is with us.
Posted by Psalmist on February 19, 2008 at 6:45 pm
Monika, if we read the various passages carefully, they really do not portray godly husbands as leaders of their wives. In fact, their culture is what declared them such, and Paul instead was telling the husbands that they must love their wives as Christ loves the church–in a self-sacrificial way. Husbands aren’t told to be leaders to their wives any more than they’re told to atone for their wives’ sins, though Christ does those things and so much more for the church. Husbands are still an entirely human part of the church, so they CAN’T presume to Christ’s place in their wives’ lives. It’s an analogy for the type of love husbands are to practice with their wives, which is the same kind of love all believers are to show for one another (”Love one another as I have loved you” wasn’t only for the Twelve).
Posted by monika on February 19, 2008 at 7:28 pm
Thank you for that, Psalmist. I’m still thinking a lot of stuff out, as you can probably tell, and I will consider this as I explore things more …
Posted by molleth on February 20, 2008 at 12:18 am
Monika,
Good for you!
Good points! For me, I am not sure that marriage is a FULL picture of Christ and the Church (because a human male can in no way be like *God*, you know?)…
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So I wonder, in what way is marriage like Christ and the Church? The patriarchy camp seems to say it’s in EVERY way, meaning the husband has full authority over every single thing, just as Christ does.
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But that doesn’t make sense to me, for a number of reasons. For one thing, the husband is just a fallible human being. Is it wise to teach fallible humans that they have FULL and COMPLETE authority over another human being…for life…all because of their gender?
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Does that even make sense at all? And is that what “head” meant to those who initially read the letter?
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I realize that “head” generally means leader in OUR CULTURE TODAY, but did the use of the Greek word Kephale mean “leader” then? Translator Suzanne McCarthy has done some excellent research into that (somewhere in her many excellent posts at http://powerscourt.blogspot.com/ ), and the answer, for her and for MANY other translators/scholars appears to be an emphatic NO. The word ‘arche’ was used to denote a head-as-*authority*, so if the emphasis was to be about authority, Paul had a frequently used word available to him…but he didn’t use arche. He used ‘kephale,’ which seems to be raaaaarely used in relation to “authority/leader over” in the writings of this time period!
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In other words, deriving an entire theology of male heirarchy off of the word, “kephale (head),” means that one’s theology is based on very shaky ground…
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That, and why did Paul choose to use the head/body analogy, anyway? To emphasize SEPERATE ROLES? Strange to use a thing that is “one” in order to emphasize seperateness, isn’t it?
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People then didn’t view the “head” of a body as the leader, for one thing (some felt that the heart led the body, some felt that the innards/guts led the body, etc), and for another thing, you can’t seperate a head and body without KILLING the thing.
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In other words, to me, the point of Paul’s analogy was to emphasize UNION. Funny how we now use his analogy to emphasize DIFFERENCE. Or maybe it’s NOT funny…
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So I tend to think that Paul was saying that marriage is to bring out a picture of Christ and the Church…in a specific way.
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Which then leads me to ask, WHAT way?
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The passage in Eph. 5 strongly brings out the concept of UNION (which has also been the point of the previous chapters, interestingly enough)…
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So I tend to think that the allegory/picture is one of union—-in the same way that Christ and His Church are made one, which is exactly the point of Ephesians 1 and 2, etc…
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So for me, it really fits with the whole thrust of the letter to the Ephesians. Even when Paul talks about leadership roles for the Church (3 and 4), he talks about how the leaders are there to work themselves OUT of a job, they are there to bring the others UP.
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So do husbands have a special leadership that wives do not have? I am not sure. I currently tend to lead towards… no.
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They had one in the patriarchal culture of Rome, sure. By coded law, as a matter of fact, as well as by practice. But was Paul advocating for them to have one on a *spiritual* basis? In my opinion, it doesn’t seem so.
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At the same time, I do tend to see man and woman IDEALLY as “king and queen,” like Adam and Eve were in the Garden before the Fall. So did Adam have a special power as King? Well…yes. But, well, so does Eve as Queen… Pre-Fall, there is NEVER any mention of one ruling over the other. Just as Paul brings out in Eph. 1 (at the end of the chapter), the Husband and his Wife are ruling TOGETHER (not over eachother, but together in union).
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Soooo… ? That’s where I sit as of now. And it’s a COMPLETE (so complete!) about-face from the way I used to see things.
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All of that said, I fully acknowledge that this is just my opinion and that I am just a fallible human. I love how you said that you wanted to study this all out for yourself.
Posted by monika on February 20, 2008 at 7:16 am
Thanks for the thoughtful thoughts, Molly! And the encouragement.
Posted by Corrie on February 20, 2008 at 10:05 am
I always laugh when I hear the statement made that women are more emotional than men. Maybe I just know a lot of emotional men?
My husband and I, like you and your husband, Molly, are not emotionally driven. He is Spock and I am Spockette. But, I do cry more than he does but I only think that is socially conditioned out of men in the U.S. As I look in the Middle East, it seems that men weep publicly and they are very patriarchal. It seems that there are some who are more emotional than others but I would not break it down between males and females. It has a lot to do with culture, too. Men from other cultures are much more emotional than women from others.
Psalmist is right that all anyone has to do is ride around in a car or watch a bunch of men at a sporting event to see that men are emotional. Or stand in the pharmacy line at Walmart and watch the pharmacist tell a guy that his prescription isn’t ready. Oh boy. I have seen that happen more than a few times and emotions READILY fly, let me tell you!
What is emotion? Rage, anger, love, despair, sadness, agitation, frustration, hatred, etc.
What does the Bible say to all believers about emotion? It doesn’t seem to mark out women as more prone to the above emotions at all.
As human beings, we have emotions and we must all be on our guard so they don’t dictate to us and lead us astray.
And then we have those who confuse the fruit of the spirit as effeminate or feminized emotions.
Being gentle, meek, loving, kind, tender, self-controlled are fruit of the Spirit not something only females do.
Posted by Charis on February 20, 2008 at 11:50 am
Good gracious, no, you didn’t offend me!!!
If there is ONE thing a loveless marriage (where anything and everything wrong in the world is MY FAULT) is good for, its developing a tough skin! (YIKES!)
Please forgive ME if I am a drag… I’ve been feeling depressed for the past few days. Y’all cheer me up- including YOU, Psalmist! You are wise. I love how you shine more light on a subject by catching little nuances in scripture that I overlooked.
Posted by molleth on February 20, 2008 at 12:34 pm
Me too. Psalmist rocks.
Posted by Psalmist on February 20, 2008 at 12:56 pm
Aw, shucks! (blushes, looks down, scuffs toe in dirt)
Y’all are sweet!
Posted by Marcia on February 21, 2008 at 6:56 am
Molly-you’re amazing; you never stop coming up with fresh and interesting takes on stuff.
Lindsey–what happened to your blog?
And Sue, I don’t wanna vacuum in heels!
Posted by Jae on February 21, 2008 at 2:43 pm
Totally off topic. Great pic in the newspaper Molly!
Posted by molleth on February 21, 2008 at 3:14 pm
Thanks, Jae… That was a surprise!
Posted by The Happy Feminist on February 21, 2008 at 5:19 pm
Hi, I have hardly been looking at any blogs (including my own) for many months now, so imagine my surprise to find your recent link when I found your blog through a discussion at “True Womanhood.” This comments thread has actually made me cry. (So yeah, I’m emotional. Sue me.)
I was thinking recently that, even if you are not involved in a patriarchal church, it is easy to internalize the idea that women are more inclined to be ruled by emotions. Here are a couple ideas I’ve been batting around as to why:
– Confirmation bias: On those occasions when you feel your emotions taking over, this may confirm the belief we have all been taught that women are more emotional. Even thoug all human beings’ emotions take over at times, we notice it more in ourselves and other women because it confirms prejudices we already have.
– Upbringing: I am willing to bet that parents (including “progressive” parents) are more willing to tolerate emotionalism in little girls than in little boys. So Little Suzie gets comforted when she cries but Little Johnnie is told to “buck up.” These behaviors naturally carry over into adulthood.
And, of course, as someone else already noted, men’s emotions (such as anger) tend to be seen as more legitimate than our.
Molleth, thank you for your blog. I can’t wait to read more. For some reason, it really pains me to think of women being taught inferiority in patriarchal churches — even though I am very much an outsider looking in. I think it is because I can relate to the internalization of sexism (yes, even life-long liberal feminist me) even though I have experienced it to a lesser degree and in a less explicit form.
Posted by Chewymom » Blog Archive » Are We Just Too Emotional? on February 22, 2008 at 5:55 am
[...] For more reading on the subject of women’s emotions, read Molly’s post here. [...]
Posted by the particular loneliness that comes from a loveless marriage… « A Wife’s Submission on February 22, 2008 at 7:57 am
[...] 20, 2008 by Charis Psalmist says: The apostle Paul was right when he said that it was easier for those who are single, at least in [...]
Posted by the particular loneliness that comes from a loveless marriage… « A Wife’s Submission on February 22, 2008 at 7:58 am
[...] 22, 2008 by Charis Psalmist says: The apostle Paul was right when he said that it was easier for those who are single, at least in [...]
Posted by molleth on February 22, 2008 at 10:19 am
Happy Feminist, Nice to see you here… Good points, all around.
Posted by Lindsey on February 22, 2008 at 6:06 pm
Hey Marcia—I’m going back to work full time and as a classroom teacher I didn’t think I should air all my opinions in a public place. You know, a parent who’s angry about the C his kid just made in math combined with my long winded essays about church, drinking, whatever may not be a good combo!
I have felt the Holy Spirit prompt me to take it down for a long time and just enjoy a season of quiet.
So I did. It was hard, but I don’t miss it like I thought I would. Maybe again another day…but for now, no blog.