Shut-Up! No, Keep Talking! (Trinitarian Musings and Flying Divergent Opinions)

One thinker says this of my thoughts,

If you don’t think that one can be equal in essence and subject eternally in person, well then you are going to be committed to rejecting the Christian doctrine of God. Some of your unconsciously held philosophical beliefs are incompatible with Christianity. And that is good for you to discover, for now you are more aware of your beliefs than you were previously. Of course, should you choose your philosophical beliefs over Christianity, that will be bad for you. You can’t serve two masters.

That’s not all he said. For the record, I printed out his words and read them carefully.  He’s a profound thinker and someone I know I can learn from. Though I may not agree entirely (assuming I can understand it in the first place), I know there is probably truth in some of it, particularly the admonitions to shut-up and go study for a few more years.

Then, when I decide the best thing for me to do is probably to just leave off this topic altogether, since my lack of scholarship is only too painfully apparent (and therefore what can I possibly do beyond act like a bull in a china shop?) another thinker goes and says this,

It doesn’t happen every day in the blogosphere that someone posts on statements made about the Trinity by people like Hilary of Poitiers, Athanasius, Augustine, Gregory of Nyssa, Basil of Caesarea, and Gregory of Nazianzus, and relates them to the debate raging among evangelical Christians around gender roles and lines of authority. The cool factor, as far as I’m concerned, is off the charts in a case like this. But Molly Aley has done it again, with a post that has already attracted 102 comments.

As far as I can see, the big theological guns she takes on have no one on the net able to defend the use of the doctrine of the Trinity they make to bolster the complementarian point of view. Still, I can’t help but thinking that both sides in the debate are missing something… [read rest here]

He follows those paragraphs up with some insightful thoughts and I do recommend reading the rest (as well as the conversation that has just begun below it). As for me, I’m mostly just confused. I really don’t like the idea of bordering on heresy. Of course, it’s not the first time I’ve been accused of this. Leaving the conservative-homeschool-patriarchal camp was a true lesson in sticking with what you believe you are seeing of God, despite the fact that a gabillion of your former friends now think you’re going to be struck by a lightening bolt from on High. I’m glad I listened to my gut instinct and not to them (well-intentioned though many of them were). And I’m beyond glad that I didn’t shut up when they suggested I shut up.

So cries of heresy tend to impact me less, now, though I still take them seriously. I’ve come to discover that no matter what you think, it’s likely someone in a different camp will be all too eager to tell you why you are in heresy. After all, their camp is the one with the monopoly on the truth, right? (Stop rolling your eyes, yon skeptics. Who knows, maybe it’s possible. At the very least, it’s nice that some are able to feel that secure in their camp. There are parts of me that wish for nothing more than to go back to that phase and the great comfort its ample bosom provided me).

When it comes to matters of the Trinity, I am intrigued and at the same time admittedly put off. Sure, I know there is a Right Way to see it (and, er, that would be the way that the Trinity actually operates in). But the tricky part is figuring out what that is this side of the glass.

There are already plenty of different views and explanations. How do I think that I can uncover anything in the Scripture when a million others already have their own complicated unique takes on the matter. And what pomposity in the first place–thinking that something like “The Way God Is and Relates to Himself” can be grasped at all?

But at the same time, these things do matter. Doing the nervous-ostrich with my head, no matter how appealing, is suicide, and I know it. In fact, it was under a teaching that charted out Trinitarian relationships in hierarchical form (”The Son is 100% under authority and yet 100% equal,” in descending order from Father to Son to Spirit) that I believed that patriarchal authority was not only possible, but probable to the extreme.

I mean, since humans are made in God’s image, we would take the same relational form God takes, right? And since Christ can be 100% under the Father’s permanent eternal authority (relating always as one under authority) and yet simultaneously be 100% equal to the Father, then, by golly, so can I. It wasn’t only in my marriage. I adopted a very authoritarian view of parenting from this doctrine as well, and other relationships too.

I learned that the Trinity itself operates in hierarchy: I also learned that authority is the most important issue of all. I was taught in Bible College that nothing overshadows authority, that is was the primary controversy in the entire universe, both in our relationship to God and therefore also in all our relationships elsewhere. There was nothing higher than obedience, nothing more great than to subject oneself to the established authority. And since the Trinity relationships operated in perpetual hierarchy, so did all the rest of relationships.

Love? Where was Love? I’m not sure. But that didn’t matter, as long as there was obedience without question.

I say all of that to try and explain why a subject like the Trinity attracts me, even though I’m not foolish enough to think it can ever be comprehended in full. All I know for certain is that a false comprehension of the Trinity impacted my life in ways that are deep and painful. I will bear those scars even as I currently learn the dance steps of liberty, and yet I can’t sleep comfortably at night knowing that others may be receiving those same wounds now, in a childlike trust that if it’s good enough for the Godhead, then it must be the right way to relate—even as the cuts go deep. It drives me to want to know, even if I fumble around a bit and break fine china in the process. I figure it’s better than sitting on my hands.

16 Responses to this post.

  1. Posted by servetus on March 6, 2008 at 2:57 am

    Molly. Take what I am about to say as the position of someone who acknowledges or even avows her heresy. But. Do not let anyone shut down your mind, or you will go crazy, as this post acknowledges. It is okay to make mistakes when you are learning, that is how you learn. Needing to work through the basics and test them out is essential to ever moving any further in a creative direction. Who knows where you will be in two or five years? But for now you are where you are, asking the questions you are asking, and obviously they are good ones or they wouldn’t provoke so much energetic attention.

    On Trinitarian heresies: a book that helped me a lot when I was starting grad school was Joseph Friedman’s _Michael Servetus: A Study in Total Heresy_. Servetus made every Trinitarian error known to man at the time and a few new ones, and Friedman (a secular Jew) explains them all in detail. It is a hard read, and potentially also hard to obtain where you are, but might be worth it if you can find a copy.

  2. I suppose I’m glad God is big enough not to let our thoughts and misunderstandings of Him prevent us from Him, Molly. I must admit that I have had a very difficult time understanding all the ins and outs of the Trinity and have been “scared” to admit it out loud for fear of the accusations that would fly. People speak about the issue as though they were present at the early councils and fully understand the mind and nature of God. I just don’t believe I do. And I don’t think it thwarts my faith at all; in fact, it strengthens it.

    I do know that the Trinity and how it works has impacted my thoughts on the male-female issue over time, but I’m not even sure how exactly. :)

  3. after i stopped giggling over the phrase “ample bosom” (it’s just such a funny word…bosom), i stopped and read your post again. I’ve decided over my lifetime that my concern, and this may sound cheesy, is not with other peoples’ views on my orthodoxy. I’m concerned with pleasing God and serving God. Should other people tell me I’m unorthodox, I will certainly look into it, ask people I trust, study the church fathers and others. But ultimately we don’t answer to “camps”, we answer to Christ. Keep on keeping on Molly. You’re doing well.

  4. I really like these thoughts, Molly. I think you make a good point about the curious exclusion of Love in your experience of the authoritarian system. I ran across something similar when some men and I were looking over the Westminster Catchecism, when it asks, “What are God’s attributes?” or some such question. Among the answers were mercy, justice, authority, and the like, but not Love. I was tempted to shut up when I noticed this, because hey, I don’t want to go against Westminster (whoever *that* is), but instead I spoke out and asked, “Hey, anyone else notice Love is missing in here?” And turns out everyone was a little bit confused on that.

    So I think it is great that you’re really trying hard to get at the truth of all this. And I doubt at the final judgement Jesus will say, “Well, you know and love Me, but doggoneit you were a bit off on the Trinity, so…. yeah seeyahlatabye!!”

    Keep on truckin’!

  5. Molly, I find your thoughts extremely helpful and somewhat representative of where I am. You tend to vocalize things in words that I am thinking in my head, which is helpful. I read through all the comments at complegalitarian and I feel like the statements given to you were a little scary. To tell someone that your ideas are truth and if they don’t believe them they cannot be a Christ follower or believe truth frightens me greatly. Don’t worry – we wouldn’t be reading your blog if we didn’t like questioning and working through issues. Working through issues naturally means not being right all of the time. And people of Christ need to learn to accept that they are not always right and that questioning to learn and grow is HEALTHY.

  6. A little heresy, lightly held, is good for the soul. The sole alternative is to do the ostrich thing, which well never help you grow.

    Also, equality is NOT a thing in itself, it is a comparison of two things. When anyone speaks of different persons as being equal without clarifying what aspects of those persons are being compared, they are communicating TERRIBLY. The listener has only two ways to interpret such a statement: make their own assumptions about what aspects are being compared (most do this subconsciously, leading to monumentally unproductive debates) or else assume that the person is claiming two different persons to be 100% equal (aka identical) which means they aren’t different persons at all. Some might argue that works in the Trinity (though i’m skeptical), but i’m darn sure it ain’t true of any other persons.

    If you are going to talk about “equal in essence”, then you really haven’t communicated much better, as “essence” is incredibly vague and requires interpretation too.

    So, when someone says “equal”. Ask “equal in what aspects?” When some says “equal in essence”, ask “and what is the essence?” Saves a lot of headache.

  7. Molly, sweet Molly…
    .
    This is what Christianity means to YOU. Like it or not, popular or not, we each dole out what is our own faith walks and journeys. You and I are both Christian, yet I’m rather sure we interpret things very differently, based on our experiences, upbringing, personality and more. God is God, and Jesus is Jesus. That, for me is the big constant. The littlier things (yes, even the concept Trinity can be determined as “little” in the scope and spanse of God Almighty) are the littler things.
    .
    Find comfort and define YOUR Christianity, YOUR faith, YOUR journey to the cross.
    .
    Worry less about others interpretations. Otherwise, we drive ourselves crazy.

  8. I read something in Beth Moore’s “Beloved Disciple” which I thought was a powerful observation.

    “The holy place was the room where the priests ministered on a daily basis… the most holy place, which the high priest entered only once a year with fear and trembling… the term ‘most holy place’ actually repeats the original word for holy…’the holy holy’… We will join the seraph who cry ‘Holy Holy Holy is the Lord God Almighty” (Rev 4:8)… Perhaps like me, you try to distinguish between members of the holy Trinity. Whom did John picture on the throne…? Before we immediately assume God the Father as the occupant or no distinction at all, please read Revelation 5:6. Where is the Lamb (Christ) depicted as standing? [Click here for the answer] I don’t beleive the revelator meant us to picture Christ standing up on a chair. Our familiarity with a throne is entirely related to a piece of furniture. The word ‘throne’ seems to encompass the center, from which Christ presides with all authority… According to the comparisons with Daniel 7 and Revelation 5, both the Father and the Son inhabit the throne room. Could it be that in the OT God wanted most to reveal Christ and in the NT Christ wanted most to reveal God? I think it’s quite possible and very likely of each of Them to shed light on the other”

    Then I read Revelation 4 and 5, compared the words with which “the Lord God” and “the Lamb” were worshiped… imagine myself there… and somehow wrangling over our perception of who is “higher” seems insignificant.
    HOLY, HOLY, HOLY

    Rev 4:11″You are worthy, our Lord and God,
    to receive glory and honor and power,
    for you created all things,
    and by your will they were created
    and have their being.”
    ~
    Rev 5:11Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering
    thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled
    the throne and the living creatures and the elders. 12In a loud voice they sang:
    “Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
    to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
    and honor and glory and praise!”
    13Then I heard every creature in
    heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them,
    singing:
    “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
    be praise and honor and glory and power,
    for ever and ever!”
    14The four living creatures said, “Amen,”
    and the elders fell down and worshiped.

  9. Wow. Good words, Charis.
    .
    More later when I have time—I really want to respond to all these awesome comments, but being in the play meant I’ve been avoiding the fact that I’m taking a class, and I now have only a few days left to write two papers (both of which haven’t even been started yet) and take a Final exam… And instead of writing last night, I stayed up way too late investigating/mulling on the Trinity and writing a blog post!!!!! *makes mental note to work on self-discipline*
    :lol:

  10. Molly, you say “I learned that the Trinity itself operates in hierarchy: I also learned that authority is the most important issue of all. I was taught in Bible College that nothing overshadows authority, that is was the primary controversy in the entire universe, both in our relationship to God and therefore also in all our relationships elsewhere. There was nothing higher than obedience, nothing more great than to subject oneself to the established authority. And since the Trinity relationships operated in perpetual hierarchy, so did all the rest of relationships” toward the end of this post.

    This is the teaching I have learned as well, and sometimes it’s been inexpertly taught and modeled, with the same lack of Love that you bemoan in your next paragraph: “Love? Where was Love? I’m not sure. But that didn’t matter, as long as there was obedience without question.”

    I had the same run-ins with jerky jerks who behaved like jerks, trying to get me to comply without applying to themselves the Biblical mandate to “be ye kind one to another.” (Eph 4:32)

    That they didn’t obey simultaneous commands when trying to teach me to ‘Be Submissive’ doesn’t mean that the Biblical commands requiring submissiveness/willingness to yield don’t apply to me. The Bible clearly teaches all of us who are the Lord’s (not just the us who are non-male, right?) to be humble, kind, filled with brotherly love, and submissive to one another.

    By the way, I have a lot of personal baggage associated with the verb “to submit.” I know that Biblically, it does not mean “cower like a dog,” but “be willing to yield,” but I can’t seem to shake that association, you know? So when I read and study the Word for myself, I remind myself of the true meaning…and when I memorize and meditate, I change the verbs to “be willing to yield.”

  11. Posted by Beatrice on March 8, 2008 at 8:06 am

    Dear Molly,

    I’m a lot younger than you, and I don’t know a lot about the Trinity, so I’m sure I can’t speak to a lot of this. But I know I can be a real Christian and not know tons about the Trinity or the church fathers like the person whom you were talking to does. (Well, anyhow he knows a lot about what other people said about the Trinity, which is a different thing.) Perhaps he is right in his position, but I don’t see any reason to call a disagreement heresy, when, as everyone has been saying, the Trinity is such a mystery.

    I may be going through some of the same feelings you are, because after years of being an avid Calvinist, I am allowing myself to question it. When I told my father I was no longer neccessarily a Calvinist, he started to question me like I might not be a Christian. :( I hope he doesn’t think that, and I doubt if he meant to be hurtful, but anyway. I tell myself over and over again that my salvation is not threatened by this, in spite of the feelings that my questions and doubts make me horrible or rebellious and there’s no hope for me and I’m probably not elect. That’s NOT TRUE.

  12. this whole argument is so strange to me – I was always taught (growing up catholic) that the whole point of the trinity is that it’s beyond comprehension – it doesn’t make sense to our human minds, and yet it is true. so much of christianity works that way – God had to make a sacrifice of himself, to himself, in order to placate himself, right? it’s nuts! and yet it’s true. The idea of making rules for how the holy spirit interacts with God the Father – and then trying to apply those rules (rules for understanding *god*) to relationships between men and women…? I bet if you *were* Orthodox you wouldn’t have to deal with this stuff anymore!

  13. Posted by Atlantic on March 10, 2008 at 1:59 pm

    I’ve been staying out of this one, mostly because they’re stress-testing my department at work and I have no time to think, less alone post – and discussions of Trinitarian theology generally require quite a lot of thought.
    .
    However, there’s something about the comments to this post that worries me as much as the possibility of Trinitarian heresies, and luckily I can quote Chesterton about it:
    .

    Nothing more strangely indicates an enormous and silent evil of modern society than the extraordinary use which is made nowadays of the word “orthodox.” In former days the heretic was proud of not being a heretic. It was the kingdoms of the world and the police and the judges who were heretics. He was orthodox. He had no pride in having rebelled against them; they had rebelled against him. The armies with their cruel security, the kings with their cold faces, the decorous processes of State, the reasonable processes of law–all these like sheep had gone astray. The man was proud of being orthodox, was proud of being right. If he stood alone in a howling wilderness he was more than a man; he was a church. He was the centre of the universe; it was round him that the stars swung. All the tortures torn out of forgotten hells could not make him admit that he was heretical.
    .
    But a few modern phrases have made him boast of it. He says, with a conscious laugh, “I suppose I am very heretical,” and looks round for applause. The word “heresy” not only means no longer being wrong; it practically means being clear-headed and courageous. The word “orthodoxy” not only no longer means being right; it practically means being wrong. All this can mean one thing, and one thing only. It means that people care less for whether they are philosophically right. For obviously a man ought to confess himself crazy before he confesses himself heretical. The Bohemian, with a red tie, ought to pique himself on his orthodoxy. The dynamiter, laying a bomb, ought to feel that, whatever else he is, at least he is orthodox.

  14. Molly,
    It is so fun to read your material – I need to discipline myself to do so more often!
    The Trinity is such a wonderful and beautiful concept. Before I was a Christian, I was studying in the sciences, and the Trinity was one of the few ideas that made sense to me in a life of faith. I likened it to the phases of matter – (it is tough to explain now that I AM a Christian) but in matter, different forms – same material is commonplace (think ice, liquid water, gasseous water) and the phase speaks to the qualities, but not the essential ’stuff’, the chemistry, of the matter. The Trinity, is not dissimilar to that. God (elohim -plural, yahweh – verb:being)mystery, power, spirit, did not intersect the world through direct personhood until Jesus. That was a different phase than spiritual God, but I am not willing to call it an inferior phase – it accomplished an incredible spiritual feat – that God (not as Jesus) had NOT accomplished prior. Similarly, God intersects the world in the immediate spirit -thought -action relationship with believers through the holy spirit…which again we cannot call inferior to the Christ, God insertion into the world, or the God-creator- spirit-mystery, because God-Christ himself taught us otherwise.
    I keep coming back to the concept of unity, mystery, and beauty. Again science – the spectrum – splits beautifully into color, but is all one light. Why would God show promise in a rainbow?… & God -Christ refer to light repeatedly, if there is no lesson in it for us on the nature of God!
    Anyway – enough blabbering on. GREAT THINKING and asking, Molly – here’s to seeking ‘true standards’ and worshiping God as ‘God really is’!
    Hoorah!
    -M

  15. Posted by servetus on March 11, 2008 at 4:45 pm

    Speaking as someone who is surely a heretic and not just a little, I don’t think it is fair to say that heretics are proud of their transgressions. For me, anyway, it has been a long painful journey. It would be a lot easier to just fit in, because it would make community life a lot easier.

  16. Thanks, all. I have to apologize for not responding to each comment coherently. I have really enjoyed all the thoughts…coherant responses are just not there. I’m so…just “not there” at the moment, I feel like I can’t even give a response worth taking the time to read (as this one exemplifies). HA. I have to say, I did wonder what you were getting at, Atlantic…I don’t think heresy is something to scoff at. But at the same time, when you live (or have lived) in a world where “heretic” was a cry thrown everytime anyone veered from the tight little path approved of by your particular group, one ends up being a little thick-skinned (maybe more than is healthy, ideally, but enough to survive in the un-ideal world of real life).

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