Ruminating on Our Enemy the State: America the Adolescent?

With regards to the topic of discussion this month over at RTD (where I also put up this same post), Lydia commented,

“…[A]ll the bad that can be said about corps. can be said about the gov. Refer to “Our Enemy, the State,” by Albert Knock for an exposition on this.”

Salixc provided links to the book here and a printable version here. I must say, the book was worth printing out and reading. I found myself thoroughly engaged and scribbling notes in the margins right and left. There are so many levels of it I would like to discuss (and am discussing, in my head and with the poor people stuck nearest to me), though hardly the time to do it.

angry toddler

One of the smaller thoughts (in light of the others that) the book brought out is the question of whether or not America will ever grow up—or if it even can. I noted the quote below in the margins of my printed copy, because I’d heard this line of reasoning before. I can’t remember which Psychology class it was for certain [though I believe it was one from the Learning Company with Professor Daniel Robinson], but it was on the perpetual adolescence of America, the lecture delving into the fact that if America was evaluated pyschologically as a person, that person would not be found psychologically healthy. She would be found in a perpetual position of wanting to be all-grown-up and yet decidedly not acting that way nor able to think that way—a toddler in an adult-like body, if you will.

I found it interesting that Nock said as much in “Our Enemy, the State,” and even more interesting that, far from suggesting America would evolve into full adulthood (which was more the hopeful conclusion of the lecture I’d heard), Nock seemed to suggest that America has always been that way and likely always will be, because being immobilized at that particular level of development is markedly advantageous for those who desire to exploit said toddlers.

This quote comes from Chapter I, section IV:

The ablest and most acute observer among the many who came from Europe to look us over in the early part of the last century was the one who is for some reason the most neglected, notwithstanding that in our present circumstances, especially, he is worth more to us than all the de Tocquevilles, Bryces, Trollopes and Chateaubriands put together. This was the noted St.-Simonien and political economist, Michel Chevalier. Professor Chinard, in his admirable biographical study of John Adams, has called attention to Chevalier’s observation that the American people have “the morale of an army on the march.” The more one thinks of this, the more clearly one sees how little there is in what our publicists are fond of calling “the American psychology” that it does not exactly account for; and it exactly accounts for the trait that we are considering.

An army on the march has no philosophy; it views itself as a creature of the moment. It does not rationalize conduct except in terms of an immediate end. As Tennyson observed, there is a pretty strict official understanding against its doing so; “theirs not to reason why.” Emotionalizing conduct is another matter, and the more of it the better; it is encouraged by a whole elaborate paraphernalia of showy etiquette, flags, music, uniforms, decorations, and the careful cultivation of a very special sort of comradery. In every relation to “the reason of the thing,” however – in the ability and eagerness, as Plato puts it, “to see things as they are” – the mentality of an army on the march is merely so much delayed adolescence; it remains persistently, incorrigibly and notoriously infantile.

Thoughts?

15 Responses to this post.

  1. So, you took the red pill, eh?

  2. Hi Molly

    Forgive me for commenting when I haven’t even read the book you’re discussing, but you may be interested in Oliver James’ “The Selfish Capitalist”. He argues that laissez-faire economics perpetuates and cultivates a culture of ill-being, largely through its focus on consumerism, lack of long-term investment in businesses and exploitation of the average Joe in favour of the vast profits of the major multinationals (who corporately often behave like toddlers who haven’t yet learnt to share). Although James is British, he gives a cogent analysis of the affects of “Selfish Capitalism” on all of the English speaking nations which the accepted Thatcherism/Reagonomics of the late 1970s and rejected the Keynesian economic consensus of the post-war period. I blogged about it a little while ago if you’re interested.

    Yup, I’m a European liberal!!lol!

  3. Posted by Atlantic on March 17, 2008 at 10:07 am

    In his book Heretics, G.K. Chesterton wrote a whole chapter on The Fallacy of the Young Nation. It was written a hundred years ago, and he addresses the variant of “vigorous due to youth” as opposed to “immature due to youth”, but the same overall objections remain. Some excerpts:
    .

    I wish to speak especially of another and much more general delusion. It pervades the minds and speeches of all the practical men of all parties; and it is a childish blunder built upon a single false metaphor. I refer to the universal modern talk about young nations and new nations; about America being young, about New Zealand being new. The whole thing is a trick of words. America is not young, New Zealand is not new. It is a very discussable question whether they are not both much older than England or Ireland.

    .
    By the way, this is a very good point. When I moved to England, I thought I was moving to a place much more old-fashioned than the US. I was wrong. The architecture and the domestic landscape is much older, but by and large this doesn’t carry across to the culture.
    .
    And not so incidentally, my own experience is that people who frame the US as young and immature are frequently Europeans or those who admire the current European milieu and wish to frame the latter as mature and wise. My personal feeling is that many Europeans are currently the adolescents who want to borrow the car keys but not pay any costs.

    Of course we may use the metaphor of youth about America or the colonies, if we use it strictly as implying only a recent origin. But if we use it (as we do use it) as implying vigour, or vivacity, or crudity, or inexperience, or hope, or a long life before them or any of the romantic attributes of youth, then it is surely as clear as daylight that we are duped by a stale figure of speech. We can easily see the matter clearly by applying it to any other institution parallel to the institution of an independent nationality. If a club called “The Milk and Soda League” (let us say) was set up yesterday, as I have no doubt it was, then, of course, “The Milk and Soda League” is a young club in the sense that it was set up yesterday, but in no other sense. It may consist entirely of moribund old gentlemen. It may be moribund itself.

    .

    When we look at the actual history of the world, we find, that if there is a thing that is born old and dies young, it is a colony….Now, of course, the interesting question is, have we, in the case of America and the colonies, any real evidence of a moral and intellectual youth as opposed to the indisputable triviality of a merely chronological youth? Consciously or unconsciously, we know that we have no such evidence, and consciously or unconsciously, therefore, we proceed to make it up.

    .

    Touching these English colonies, I do not wish to be misunderstood. I do not say of them or of America that they have not a future, or that they will not be great nations. I merely deny the whole established modern expression about them. I deny that they are “destined” to a future. I deny that they are “destined” to be great nations. I deny (of course) that any human thing is destined to be anything. All the absurd physical metaphors, such as youth and age, living and dying, are, when applied to nations, but pseudo-scientific attempts to conceal from men the awful liberty of their lonely souls.

  4. Posted by Greg Anderson on March 17, 2008 at 8:14 pm

    Governments, if they endure, always tend increasingly toward aristocratic forms. No government in history has been known to evade this pattern. And as the aristocracy develops, government tends more and more to act exclusively in the interests of the ruling class — whether that class be hereditary royalty, oligarchs of financial empires, or entrenched bureaucracy.

  5. Posted by Greg Anderson on March 17, 2008 at 8:16 pm

    Oops! plagiarism is not cool, the above comment is a Bene Gesserit saying.

  6. Greg, that’s sort of the thesis of Our Enemy, the State… Very cool (except for your plagiarism, of course, which I do hope you get psychological help for… *grins*
    .
    Atlantic,
    Nock was not saying America was adolescent whereas Europe was wise and adult. However, you are correct—-that does seem to be a common sentiment (at least one I’ve heard). This is not what Nock was saying, though. That said, I LOVE the GK quotes. What a great mind…
    .
    Dulce,
    That sounds worth reading. Thanks for the recommendation. :)
    .
    Jacob,
    Er, what does the red do, versus the blue again…? Short term memory, here…

  7. Morpheus: I imagine that right now you’re feeling a bit like Alice. Tumbling down the rabbit hole?
    .
    Neo: You could say that.
    .
    Morpheus: I can see it in your eyes. You have the look of a man who accepts what he sees because he’s expecting to wake up. Ironically, this is not far from the truth. Do you believe in fate, Neo?
    .
    Neo: No.
    .
    Morpheus: Why not?
    .
    Neo: ‘Cause I don’t like the idea that I’m not in control of my life.
    .
    Morpheus: I know exactly what you mean. Let me tell you why you’re here. You’re here because you know something. What you know, you can’t explain. But you feel it. You felt it your entire life. That there’s something wrong with the world. You don’t know what it is, but it’s there. Like a splinter in your mind — driving you mad. It is this feeling that has brought you to me. Do you know what I’m talking about?
    .
    Neo: The Matrix?
    .
    Morpheus: Do you want to know what it is?
    .
    (Neo nods his head.)
    .
    Morpheus: The Matrix is everywhere, it is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it when you look out your window, or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work, or when go to church or when you pay your taxes. It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth.
    .
    Neo: What truth?
    .
    Morpheus: That you are a slave, Neo. Like everyone else, you were born into bondage, born inside a prison that you cannot smell, taste, or touch. A prison for your mind. (long pause, sighs) Unfortunately, no one can be told what the Matrix is. You have to see it for yourself. This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back.
    .
    (In his left hand, Morpheus shows a blue pill.)
    .
    Morpheus: You take the blue pill and the story ends. You wake in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe.
    .
    (a red pill is shown in his other hand)
    .
    You take the red pill and you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes.
    .
    (Long pause; Neo begins to reach for the red pill)
    .
    Remember — all I am offering is the truth, nothing more.
    .
    (Neo takes the red pill and swallows it with a glass of water)

  8. Ah, yes…
    I couldn’t remember which color of pill was remaining in status quo, and which color was “leaving on a jet plane,” (good ol’ John Denver). :)
    .
    I think red pill is accurate, though sometimes I feel like that started a couple years ago. “Our Enemy, the State,” probaby made me far less inclined to go towards the Orthodox Church though, than it did to draw me toward it. I’d say I’m leaning more towards dropping out of the whole thing, institutionally-speaking, altogether.
    .
    I’m not wondering if the Protestant Reformation started the problem, and I’m not wondering if the East-West split started the problem: I’m wondering if we’ve had the tendancy to get the whole thing wrong, right from the very get go. Do the words of Jesus fit with ANY of the paradigms we see [Protestant, Roman Catholic, or Eastern Orthodox]?

  9. I’d say I’m leaning more towards dropping out of the whole thing, institutionally-speaking, altogether.
    .
    I’m not wondering if the Protestant Reformation started the problem, and I’m not wondering if the East-West split started the problem: I’m wondering if we’ve had the tendancy to get the whole thing wrong, right from the very get go. Do the words of Jesus fit with ANY of the paradigms we see [Protestant, Roman Catholic, or Eastern Orthodox]?

    I think that depends on which words of Jesus you want to talk about.
    .
    He did come to set up a church. The thief on the cross recognized that Jesus came to establish a kingdom. Jesus modeled His kingdom on the nation of Israel. He called certain men (12) to be apostles/leaders, and He told them that they would one day sit on thrones and judge the 12 tribes of Israel. The church has apostolically-appointed leaders (Titus 1:5), who are to have positions of authority (Hebrews 13:7,17) and honor (1 Timothy 5:17).
    .
    He established a means for His followers to continue their fellowship/koinônia with Him via what the Church soon came to call the Eucharist. From the very beginning it was what the assembled Christians did together, as an organized group. It was not a “spiritual” as opposed to “carnal/natural/material” act; it was a uniting of the spiritual with the natural, as God had united Himself with the natural in the incarnation. It was a union of the life of divinity with the flesh and blood and life and soul of man. If the comparisons St. Paul makes in 1 Corinthians 10 are to make any sense, the one gathered body sharing the one loaf and one cup is part of the members’ participation in Christ.
    .
    If we/they got the whole thing wrong from the get go, then what assurance is there that anyone at this stage, let alone you or I, can get it right? I’m not talking about getting it right in and for one’s generation or one’s family or one’s lifetime. I’m talking about laying the foundation properly so that for the next many, many, many generations it will stay right. The work one builds (and that is what 1 Corinthians 3 seems to be talking about – i.e., building a church, an apostolic passing on of the tradition that Christ handed to the apostles, and which they in turn passed on to faithful men, etc. (2 Timothy 2:2)) will either last or be burned up. And if it is liable to be burnt up, then I think it’s better not to start or try to start such a work at all.
    .
    But I do understand your frustration and perhaps despair, even though you haven’t yet shared specifically how the book affected your view of church (and government).
    .
    Peace!

  10. Note that my response starts with:
    .
    I think that depends on which words of Jesus you want to talk about.

  11. even though you haven’t yet shared specifically how the book affected your view of church (and government).
    .
    Even though this was NOT the topic of “Our Enemy, the State,” it made me start thinking about how every major accepted religion is usually favorably endorsed by the powers that be to support the “status quo” (the power/control/economic/social structure of the powers-that-be).
    .
    The Hindu religion, for example. Who gets the hightest caste? Gee, the people in power. Amazing (high level of sarcasm, yes)… And everyone else is kept busy worshipping, etc, and most importantly, NOT questioning the highest caste’s right to rule.
    .
    Islam: what Allah wills will be. Don’t question those in authority over you—Allah has put them there. Just work hard to be a good and faithful worker.
    .
    Buddhism: you’re among the suffering poor? Don’t fight it—embrace it! Consider yourself blessed! Your suffering can lead you into a true state of bliss.
    .
    And Christianity, as it became more and more organized and then officially recognized as the religion of the empire: it did not do anything to challenge the empire—at least nothing that shattered the empire. It seemed to grow very comfortable upon it’s acceptance into favored status and, for the most part, is an excellent tool at keeping the masses happy and obedient.
    .
    I know this is a horrifically brief summing up of religous history, and therefore full of lack, and yet as a summation, it seems that our major religions are all excellent tools at keeping the ruled happy and the rulers ruling. I’d like to say that somehow Christianity is different, but…? In this matter, (to my eyes) it’s just like the rest.
    .
    *shrugs*
    .
    He did come to set up a church. The thief on the cross recognized that Jesus came to establish a kingdom. Jesus modeled His kingdom on the nation of Israel. He called certain men (12) to be apostles/leaders, and He told them that they would one day sit on thrones and judge the 12 tribes of Israel.
    .
    I agree that He came to inaugerate a kingdom, to set up a church, but I’m not sure it was to be modeled on the nation of Israel. That he called 12 men may be signifant in the way you mention, or it may have been a way to show Israel that He was the fulfillment of the promise (to the 12 tribes) and had no more significance beyond that: or any number of potential meanings.
    .
    He established a means for His followers to continue their fellowship/koinônia with Him via what the Church soon came to call the Eucharist. From the very beginning it was what the assembled Christians did together, as an organized group. It was not a “spiritual” as opposed to “carnal/natural/material” act; it was a uniting of the spiritual with the natural, as God had united Himself with the natural in the incarnation. It was a union of the life of divinity with the flesh and blood and life and soul of man. If the comparisons St. Paul makes in 1 Corinthians 10 are to make any sense, the one gathered body sharing the one loaf and one cup is part of the members’ participation in Christ.
    .
    Whether it’s the literal body and blood or not, it does appear to be a very significant practice to Christians from the very beginning. To me, that is striking and worth paying attention to. I have no further conclusions beyond that, however.
    .
    If we/they got the whole thing wrong from the get go, then what assurance is there that anyone at this stage, let alone you or I, can get it right? I’m not talking about getting it right in and for one’s generation or one’s family or one’s lifetime. I’m talking about laying the foundation properly so that for the next many, many, many generations it will stay right.
    .
    I’m wondering if my focus on finding the ones who’ve “got it right” has been wrong. I’m wondering if following Jesus is something we can “get right” and then pass on in some organized way. If it’s really about the business of the heart, then is there any system or form that can do that work?
    .
    I’m wondering this, in part, because Jesus seemed like He didn’t do such a great job setting up “the church,” in that they started having problems RIGHT AWAY.
    .
    Whatever the “church” was supposed to look like and/or be, it obviously wasn’t THAT clear, what with all the fights and disagreements and the ease with which wolves seemed to be able to get in. Nothing ever seemed like it was flawless, or easy. But yet I’ve been looking for the flawless system.
    .
    If Jesus couldn’t set up the flawless system, then…again, maybe I”ve been looking in the wrong direction. Or in the wrong paradigm altogether.
    .
    Long story short, I have no more answers than I had before I read the book: in fact, I have less hope, in general, at least when it comes to the way I was looking at things. I’m wondering if I have just been looking at everything all wrong.
    .
    I know I’m getting way too etherial and jello-like (as in, how can you pin this argument down, because what the heck am I saying in the first place?), and I find that annoying so it must REALLY sound annoying, and yet I can’t really explain it in any other way.
    .
    Joining the Orthodox Church because I don’t trust myself is no different than simply being stuck with myself. I know I’m fallible. But so is everyone else. So if I join the Orthodox Church, then I’m choosing to trust Chrystostemom (sp?0 and the leaders of that century—then I’m saying that *they* were infallible. And so I have to ask myself: what makes them somehow greater than any of the other great minds and spiritual souls in the history of the Church? Why, in the face of all the different opinions on what the Church is and how she should be organized, are THEY the ones who are right?
    .
    In other words, I guess it still comes down to faith: faith in the ability of a man or group of men to get it right, and faith that all the other ones are wrong.
    .
    I guess I’m just questioning whether the Church was ever supposed to look like anything at all. I fully agree that the physical and the spiritual are to join: that’s what the Incarnation was, so if He’s our Lord, then it makes sense that we will follow in those same footsteps. I’m just not sure that the Orthodox version of how and where that occurs is correct. (For example, isn’t walking by the Spirit an incarnational way of being?).
    .
    The thing that was so frightening/interesting in “Our Enemy the State” was how many times I could have substituted the word “Church” for State. The Orthodox, the Roman Catholic, and the Protestant worlds all say they have the in-spot when it comes to God, and that they alone have the authority to baptize, to serve the Lord’s Supper, etc. You can’t get to God, in other words, unless you go through THEM.
    .
    I am not bucking all authority or the concept of authority here. I am just questioning whether or not their claim to authority is actually valid or not. Jesus said the way to God was through HIM. But the three major forms of organized Christianity all say that you can’t get to God except through THEM.
    .
    Is that valid? Or is that a pile of manure? These are the sorts of questions running through my head. It seems to me that one answer would be experiential: if there is one of the three major groups that is the Right One, wouldn’t it be evident in the lives of those in the fold. And yet it appears to me that I’ve met and read of equal amounts of evil participants and equal amounts of Spirit-filled (and I don’t mean that in the charismatic way, but in the way of love, joy, peace, patience..) men and women. In other words, there seems to be a smattering of the flock of Christ within ALL of the major systems (and all the minor ones, for that matter). If one system was so obviously The One, then why isn’t it more obvious? Why aren’t they brimming with the Spirit and everyone else obviously without the Spirit?
    .
    I have more questions of a similar nature…a huge roll of them in my head, like a ball of yarn that I’m afraid to pull anymore. It all comes apart, every time I do.
    .
    The weird thing is that I love God and I want to see Him made known and that, while I’m in a place of doubting much (much!), I do not doubt Him.
    .
    Anyways, if this huge ramble made any sort of sense, then more power to the reader, because I’ll be impressed if it’s intelligible to anyone. :lol:
    .
    I bear no ill will towards any of the three major groups…I can totally see how someone could find a home in each of them, and I think there are ample arguments for the excellence of each particular one. For me, right now, I am just re-thinking a lot of things, particularly the way I’ve approached this whole search. I really wonder if I’ve been looking for the wrong thing in the wrong place.
    Warmly,
    Molly

  12. They’re all good questions, and ones that I have asked myself and still sometimes ask myself.
    .
    I am not directly arguing for the Orthodox Church, even though that is where my stumbling has taken me, but I am suggesting that an organized church – i.e., one that was episcopal (i.e., headed by episkopoi = overseers/bishops), liturgical, and sacramental – seems to be supported both by the Scriptures and by early church history, and also seems to be in accordance with what Jesus and the Apostles laid down and passed down – a view that was quite uncomfortable for me to accept.
    .
    This, as opposed to groups taking the Scriptures and establishing their own leaders and practices and interpretations, even to the point of modifying the canon and writing their own Scriptures.
    .
    Those folks were called the Gnostics.
    .
    So, who was right and who was wrong?

  13. Posted by Molly on March 19, 2008 at 2:23 pm

    YAY! I’m in Anchorage getting tests and sitting in a waiting room…and delighted to discover that Wireless works here. :)
    .
    Agreed, Eric. I think it’s even bigger than Gnostics vs. Traditionalists, though. Or, maybe, that that is one very valid way to look at it, but not the only one.
    .
    Probably the biggest question I have is the one of the Church’s place. Is the Church the mediator, is I guess what I’m trying to say. Does the Church mediate between man and God. Because if I choose to go with a heirarchal organized branch, I have to say, “yes.” Through the Orthodox, for example, or through the Protestant Lutheran (like the very nice WELS we just attended), the Church is the mediator (or is that mediatrix?).
    .
    You have to come to her in order to recieve Jesus (through the eucharist/true-presence). You cannot recieve Jesus without her. You cannot be baptized without her. So she is the one who mediates between God and man.
    .
    OR, one could say something different: that the Church is meant to be the community of those who know Jesus without a mediator—who can know Him without a Moses, without a go-between. They join together with others who also operate without a Moses, and they enjoy the benefits of that fellowship, especially in that they know God can (and does) speak through their fellowship together (through conversations, the operation of spiritual gifts–whatever that means–, etc) just as much as He speaks to them individually (in other words, though they can know Jesus through others, they are not DEPENDANT on that).
    .
    I’m just thinking and wondering…to what degree is the Church a mediator, if at all. If the Church is supposed to be the mediator, then the organized heirarchal groups are right…or, at least, one of them is right (and I’d like to find it and GET IN, for obvious reasons).
    .
    But if the Church is not to be the primary mediator (through whom we recieve Christ), then the organized heirarchal groups, while likely doing many things right, are most certainly wrong in the way they are presenting Christ.
    .
    Mulling, mulling, mulling…

  14. Posted by Atlantic on March 24, 2008 at 11:24 am

    Molly, your question deserves a long and well-thought-out answer, and unfortunately I have about six minutes tonight. So I’ll address only one of the quickest bits: the Catholic Church does indeed say that the Church is the normative system that Christ established…but she does not, in fact, say that that is the only way. God can transcend His own commandments. And in fact, you can even be baptised “without the Church” in the sense that someone who is not even Christian can baptise someone who doesn’t even believe in the validity of an institutional Church (let alone the Catholic Church)…into the true Church.

  15. Posted by Atlantic on March 26, 2008 at 4:23 pm

    Here’s the beginning of a comment, though it’s somewhat disorganised….the issues that you’re bringing up run very deep. In fact, they go deeper than just Christianity, but whole issue of religion itself. So I’m going to start off by completely ignoring the question of whether Christ founded a visible institutional church for now, how one might identify it, and even why there is a difference between trusting oneself versus trusting oneself to choose a religion to trust.
    .
    One thing that sort of leaps out at me from your comments is the fact that some comments appear to pre-suppose an analysis of religion where :
    .
    * Power, or even co-operation with power, is inherently evil, or at least sufficiently corrupting that it can serve as a disqualifier for any religion’s claim to truth
    .
    * Institutional structures inherently serve power, so this is also a black mark against any religion
    .
    * The “system” of any true religion will be flawless, and identifiably and obviously so (and if not, there must be no true religion)
    .
    * It is possible to have a society without poor or low-status people, and therefore any religion that teaches any kind of acceptance of such status must be actively promoting oppression
    .
    * “Shattering” imperfect societies is generally both possible and desirable, as opposed to gradual reform
    .
    There are lots of problems with these assumptions – and you’re also right that your summation of major religions is oversimplified, and I could provide reams of specific counterexamples. However, there are some other things I’d like to start with.
    .
    For instance, you say “every major accepted religion is usually favorably endorsed by the powers that be to support the ‘status quo’”. If you are limiting this to “major accepted religions”, that’s rather begging the question. What “major accepted religion” exists that has never at some point in time been the religion of virtually an entire society, both rulers and ruled? There are sects that actively reject worldly power, and there are those that have not (yet) become the religion of a whole society – but these don’t generally get counted as “major accepted religions” because the latter are by definition mainstream for some particular society.
    .
    I consider it highly questionable whether the holding of power, or co-operation with it, necessarily disqualifying or corrupting for a religion. Power cannot be trusted in and of itself, certainly, and politics does sometimes demand unpleasant compromises. However, the idea that someone with worldly power cannot be virtuous is as simplistic as the idea that he must be virtuous. If everyone in a given society who becomes consciously devoted to goodness and virtue immediately abdicates whatever power he or she has, then that leaves all the power in the hands of those who are not so devoted. Is that a good thing?
    .
    Alternatively, one could desire a decentralised, anti-power, anti-authoritarian group, but these are actually very difficult to achieve (I suspect impossible, in the long term), and especially so on a large-scale societal level. If there are no rules, then the group is ripe for abuse by domineering people. As Chesterton said (you didn’t think I was going to get through a whole post without quoting Chesterton?), “Above all, if we wish to protect the poor we shall be in
    favour of fixed rules and clear dogmas. The RULES of a club are occasionally in favour of the poor member. The drift of a club is always in favour of the rich one.”
    .
    There have been plenty of attempts to develop non-authoritarian small groups, and they find they have to introduce all kinds of rules and structures in order to avoid even unconscious abuse by strong personalities within the group. Once there are rules, there need to be authoritative rule-enforcers. Trying to have a community with no issues of power or authority is like trying to communicate without language and grammar – it just doesn’t work that way. A completely solitary hermit could do it. The moment two people are involved, though…
    .
    And the fact that it’s a “business of the heart” doesn’t change this. A natural family is a business of the heart, but it doesn’t work well without rules. Even if there are few rules, and they are mostly on a customary, even unconscious level, they are there. You know they’re there when someone breaks them. :) Rules aren’t sufficient for a family to be good and healthy, but they are necessary.
    .
    It is also very difficult to imagine how a religion is supposed to prevent all subversion by the wicked. The appearance of virtue is something that many wicked people desire – whether it has power as part of the package or not. How would you suggest that any true religion could prevent powerful and/or wicked people from also claiming to follow some form of it?
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    And this idea of a search of a “flawless system”: If I understand what you mean by this phrase (and I’m not sure I do), then it’s doomed. There is no flawless system in that the church (and any religion) is always going to be staffed by human beings stained by original sin. There is no system so flawless that the wicked can’t abuse it, nor that the sincere can’t screw it up by accident. Even the Catholic Church claims flawlessness only in the area of official teachings on faith and morals, and frankly the exact definition and qualifications of that claim can get awfully complicated (as a matter of fact, almost any time the Church defines a doctrine dogmatically, it’s precisely because there have been huge disagreements within the Church over that doctrine). It certainly doesn’t guarantee that the formal members of that church, including the Pope, can’t be horrific sinners destined for Hell, who create scandals and millstones galore. It doesn’t guarantee that the Church is obviously right about anything.
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    Personally, if there was a Obviously Flawless Religion full of nothing but Clearly Spirit-Filled People, I don’t think they’d let me in, and I wouldn’t want to anyway, in case I screwed it up. :)
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    C.S. Lewis devotes a whole chapter to that issue of “why isn’t it more obvious from the members” in Mere Christianity – I can post some extracts if you’d like.
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    A couple even more disorganised thoughts:
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    * What do you mean by “walking in the Spirit”? It sounds like you’re using the phrase with a particular meaning that I’m not familiar with.
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    * You know, we Catholics think Chrysostom is a Catholic saint and Doctor of the Church. :)
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    * Brief response to your last set of concerns re mediation: Christ is indeed the only mediator between God and man for our salvation, and His Body is the Church.

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