To make a long story really really short, I just found a file full of papers, emails, and discussion board posts I’d participated in around ten years ago (as a new youth/music leader’s wife and a mom of one, with baby #2 on the way). Reading them was truly shocking. I could hardly stand the person doing the talking, which was a little sad, since that young pup was me.
She was audaciously authoritative, judgemental, and so sure of herself, her head must have been watermelon-sized at it’s most humble moment. You could tell that she was completely unaware of all of that, though, and was full of well-intended and passionate desire for truth. She was just convinced the truth and common sense were antithetical terms. Her thoughts were charged with passion and all aspects of life seemed one big huge black-or-white issue (from the KJV being the only trustworthy translation to the fact that headcoverings had to be for today and that men were meant to do the speaking).
There was no point trying to discuss anything with her—-she couldn’t hear you (and, plus, she already knew everything). The Bible said what the Bible said, which was another way of saying that her interpretation was the valid one, not yours, though she would have never put it like that. To her, there was no such thing as “interpreting.” There was the true way of seeing things, and then there was all the fluff that masqueraded as so-called interpetations.
I read some of the arguments typed by those disagreeing with her. They were balanced and well-thought out and laced with wisdom and maturity, but it was patently obvious that she heard nothing that was being said. All she saw (when trying to read their words) was, “Feminist, Humanist, Fleshly, Demonic Agenda Trying to Decieve God’s People,” in big huge flashing neon letters. There really wasn’t anything they could have done to help her. She literally could not hear a word they said.
The whole thing was really disconcerting and gives me quite a bit to process through in regard to the way one approaches theology (and in understanding my own history as well as my relationship and/or comprehension of Yahweh). But as an aside, I wondered how anyone could have stood to be within ten feet of her, much less bothered to listen. So here is where I pause to give all my Real Life Friends a big huge hug. Thanks for loving me.

















Posted by Leah on May 15, 2008 at 11:55 pm
Posted by Katherine Gunn on May 16, 2008 at 12:28 am
I am a full-fledged member of that same club. The things I thought. The things I said. The things I blogged (on a different site). Eewww. The worst part was my attitude toward other people, especially those who disagreed with my church’s theology. Well, as I have said in comments on other blogs, I was well on my way to(maybe even arrived at) being a self-righteous pain in the a**. And you could not have talked reason with me. I would not hear. *sigh*
Maybe that is the infant(ile) stage of spiritual growth?
Posted by Ann @ Holy Experience on May 16, 2008 at 3:52 am
Always, Molly….
Posted by Misty on May 16, 2008 at 4:35 am
I just linked you and stole your post. I was the same way, but you write so much better than I do:)
Posted by Beatrice on May 16, 2008 at 5:22 am
I have been there … seen others there.
Fundamentalists (when they go wrong, they don’t always) do need to be loved, I can say for myself. Underneath the self righteousness and “zealous zombie” demeanor, and the apparent deafness, there are huge amounts of pain. Unrealised pain. I think we need to remember that.
Posted by Elizabeth on May 16, 2008 at 5:35 am
Molly, you used to just annoy the HECK out of me when I read your old blog even about 3-4 years ago… I was similar to you but I was NOT a fundamentalist, and was at odds (at that time) on parenting views. But even though you annoyed and frustrated me at times, I still liked you.
(((hugs))))
I hope that I have mellowed as well. I know there’s a lot I don’t know. Life does have a way of humbling you. God at work.
Posted by bonnie on May 16, 2008 at 7:09 am
I wonder if we are so determined to find a “like-minded” group because, as you’re saying, no one else could stand to be around us! That, and because we can’t hear what anyone else has to say.
I think I’m dealing with someone right now (who really hurt me, boo hoo) who can’t hear anything I’m trying to say. Hubby says I need thick skin if I’m going to bump up against the status quo.
Brian McLaren says not to be a trouble maker but don’t be complacent either. That’s a difficult position to be in sometimes~ it’s easy to *appear* as a trouble maker!
Posted by Angela on May 16, 2008 at 10:29 am
Oh Molly, I didn’t know whether to laugh or cry at that post! It was so eerily ME that it was scary. Ack. Was I really like that? Eeesh. It brought back so many memories, not only of what I did, but the thought processes (or lack thereof?) behind it. We were just so smug in our humility, so at peace with being on the inside track to spirituality, so judgmental of the un-enlightened masses of Christians who were missing the boat. (Although, there are people like that on both extremes, I have learned.)
Now, my challenge is knowing how to treat these people when I deal with them, which is on a regular basis. I know I have to love them and be gracious, but it is so hard knowing how to converse with them without being/feeling combative or defensive. No matter what I say, I can hear MY OWN response with a sigh and an eye-roll spouting back a familiar catchphrase in my ever-so-sweet humble female voice. I know from experience that nothing and no one but God can knock some reality into their skulls or serve up a big, hot slice of humble pie.
Posted by Andrea on May 16, 2008 at 12:27 pm
Molly I don’t even know if I can properly express to you how beneficial your hindsight is for me! You’ve given me so much to chew on and mull over with regards to a mindset I don’t think I’d even have a prayer of understanding, if it weren’t for your own reflections. I think I’d also be a lot less optimistic for my chances of maybe, possibly, reaching any of the people who still blindly believe as you once did, if it weren’t for your forthrightness about how things were, and how they changed.
So while I didn’t know you then, I am very blessed to “know” you now, and I thank you so much for continuing to share. It is very much appreciated!
Posted by reneegrace on May 16, 2008 at 1:42 pm
if only grace for myself was as easy as grace for others
Posted by laura on May 16, 2008 at 3:32 pm
I have been enjoying your blog for a couple of weeks now.It is like reading my own life journey.I remember being that person.UGH. It is good to be reminded that grace should be shown to young women in that place.I guess its true that we are most annoyed by people who are like us. I will be visiting your site often, and I may need to ‘pick your brain’ about a couple of things–if that is okay?
Posted by April on May 16, 2008 at 9:08 pm
It’s interesting because I “met” you right before your journey out of fundie-ism, and I’ve always thought of you as incredibly gracious. If that was a fake, you faked well.
But I’m fairly sure it wasn’t.
Posted by molleth on May 16, 2008 at 9:23 pm
April,
Aw, thanks. It wasn’t fake at all. Mostly, it was sheer super-human effort on my part. HA! Being gracious was and is something I am very much learning and striving to grow in. Speaking of growing, I think I’ve been on a huge growth curve…slowly slowly slowly growing, in other words. LOL…
Laura,
YES. I am afraid I am a real flop. I recently had the opportunity to carry on a “debate” of sorts with a young woman just like my former self, and I passed. I just couldn’t hack it…talking to a brick wall. My time right now is so tight, and the thought of trying to have an interchange with someone who is patently convinced that her view is 100% God’s Way…? Well, I just couldn’t go there. So I’m afraid I have a lot more to learn about grace.
Andrea,
Thanks.
Angela,
Yes. Yes. And, also, yes.
I’m of the opinion that Fundamentalism comes in many flavors. I’m sure you’ve met some liberal fundamentalists. Fundamentalism happens whenever the spirit of, “I’m right, you’re wrong (and stupid/decieved/ignorant/evil because you don’t agree with me)” is the dominant flavor in the conversation. (Which is not to say that there aren’t absolutes—I’m more talking about the attitude of My Opinion Being Infallible).
That means most of us with strong personalities have to really gaurd against being fundie-ites. Whereas our wimpier friends have to work to get a little of it!
Ah, the joys of being a really screwed up member of the Planet…
Bonnie, amen to that. If you want peace, leave the status quo alone. But, may I say, you go, girl!
Great quote, btw.
Ah, shucks, Elizabeth. For what it’s worth, you annoyed me, too.
Harhahar…no, I’m totally kidding. Thanks for the thoughts–good stuff.
Beatrice,
Well said. There’s often a lot of insecurity, or a lot of well-intentioned love. It’s good to remember the person behind the annoying preaching.
Misty,
You are the cute twin. Just remember that.
Ann,
Consider yourself warmly squeezed.
Katherine,
Maybe so, for some of us. Is it something that came from us, or is it something that the theological/religous environment around us fostered? Would a more mature/wise theological environment helped to prune that crap off earlier? Or would it have been there no matter what, because it came out of me and I would have been an annoying idiot no matter where I was?
I don’t know, I’m just glad to be out of it. I hope I learn to have more and more grace for those still in it.
Leah,
You babe. Well, two babes…
Shucks.
Posted by Greg Anderson on May 16, 2008 at 9:27 pm
Ain’t religion grand !
Posted by Katherine Gunn on May 16, 2008 at 10:37 pm
You have a point, I think, on the atmosphere fostering or pruning…
I’m with you, though – I hope I learn more and more grace for all who are seeking, no matter what stage or flavor rhey are. B-D
Posted by Katherine Gunn on May 16, 2008 at 10:37 pm
(The B-D on the previous comment was supposed to be a cool smiley…) ;-D
Posted by Leah on May 16, 2008 at 11:33 pm
I must have pregnancy on the brain, because when you say “Speaking of growing, I think I’ve been on a huge growth curve…slowly slowly slowly growing, in other words. LOL…”
I think, “MOLLY’S PREGNANT?!?!”
But I would hope you’d CALL and tell me, not just hint at it on your blog. So please, explain to me.. you did mean growing spiritually, right? RIGHT??
Love ya!
~Leah
Posted by molleth on May 17, 2008 at 11:40 am
NOT. pregnant.
Not, not, not.
I love babies, I get all teary-eyed when I see newborns, I love childbirth, but I am emphatically DONE being pregnant (barring a surprise, of course, which we would recieve with gladness). If we are going to purposely expand our family, it will be by adopting kids that no one else wants. My body is aaaalll done with pregnancy. All. DONE. And I have moved from a place of feeling guilty about that (via the QF message) to feeling absolutely at peace with it and wondering why I ever beat myself up about it in the first place…
Posted by Alisa on May 17, 2008 at 12:54 pm
Angela said, “Now, my challenge is knowing how to treat these people when I deal with them, which is on a regular basis. I know I have to love them and be gracious, but it is so hard knowing how to converse with them without being/feeling combative or defensive.”
I’m having the same issue. Like someone else said, it’s soooo much easier to have grace for ourselves!
Molly, great post. I’ve been thinking too, that the only thing to do with a person that simply will not hear you is to just love them as much as you can, just as you would imagine Jesus doing. Of course, WAY easier to say than to do!
Posted by J. K. Gayle on May 17, 2008 at 12:58 pm
Don’t know you well; don’t know whether you play memes.
David Ker started something; Eclexia tagged me; and I thought of you when agreeing to play along. So you’re it. (David does offer these ways out if this is not for you.)
Posted by Leah on May 17, 2008 at 2:45 pm
I know, Molly.
No guilt. God is in complete control and He knows what you are (or are NOT) capable of at this point.
ANYway, you’ll have to enjoy MY newborn in a few months. I call him Charlie. It’s better than “it”. We don’t kwow if Charlie is a boy or girl, but Charlie sure kicks a lot. Sometimes I say “Hello, Kung-Fu Charlie!” To which Tony always replies “We are NOT naming this kid Charlie. I’d call it Chuck. The blockhead.”
Uh, nice, Tony.
Enough rambling.
Gotta go. Isn’t it BEAUTIFUL out!?!? LOVE IT!!!
Posted by Left Right Out on May 17, 2008 at 3:20 pm
I love the family/faith encouragement I get from conservative homemaking blogs but I couldn’t hang out there if I didn’t have a pretty thick skin. However I must say that I’ve been following you since “My Three Pennies” and have found you forceful at times but always kind. Mostly your love for God has come through even when I disagreed completely with what you where saying.
Posted by E on May 17, 2008 at 6:02 pm
I have found that taking a vicodin (or similar) tablet before engaging in theological conversations with ardent fundamentalists works wonders. While it makes me more talkative, I do not become aggressive or defensive, and while I may disagree with them on various points, I don’t act disagreeable.
A side benefit is that I might in the middle of a debate about, e.g., once-saved-always-saved, worship music, etc., suddenly change the conversation to how I like the coffee we’re drinking, all the while explaining how it was a proper segue from what we were just discussing.
I’ll also occasionally throw in a gentle monkey wrench by way of citing Scriptures that contravene the point(s) they’re making, with the result that they sometimes end up arguing with themselves, or at the least somewhat nonplussed.
Better living through chemistry, I always say.
(FYI, I took a tramadol/apap 3 before writing this – can you tell?)
Posted by chewymom on May 18, 2008 at 7:19 am
The old you sounds a whole lot like the old me back when I was a GFI contact mom. My main issue was parenting, and when I look back on things I posted back then, I can’t believe how assured I was as a parent of only preschoolers and babies, and I can’t believe how much wisdom was posted in a kind way that disagreed with me, but I could not hear it. If I met the old me now, I don’t think I’d like her much at all.
Posted by Kievas Fargo on May 18, 2008 at 6:43 pm
It would have been interesting if I’d happened upon your blog in those days
Posted by Carol on May 24, 2008 at 6:09 am
Unfortunately, the old you is very much like the new you. You post the same way with your new beliefs, to those who do not believe them. You seem to feel an obligation to enlighten anyone who doesn’t agree with you. When you get tired of your new beliefs, you will find another path and go all gung-ho for them, laughing at those who are still in the dark with the beliefs you formerly held. Even today, with your more relaxed religion, you have a lack of respect and love for those so called “fundies” you make fun of.
Posted by molleth on May 24, 2008 at 9:11 am
Carol,
I’m sure there is truth in what you are saying. Please know, for what it’s worth, that for every one thing you see in me that needs serious growth, I see ten. I’m trusting in a God who’s big enough to grow me and I’m trying to cooperate with Him.
Love,
Molly
Posted by Katherine Gunn on May 24, 2008 at 2:35 pm
Hmm… in reading this blog, the thing I have found Molly making fun of most is herself.
In the comment threads, she is always very thoughtful and considered in her responses to those who disagree with her. Much more so than many blogs I read.
There is a place – a necessary place – for discussion and airing of ideas and where we are in the things we have learned so far… this is one of my favorite places for that!
Posted by Paul on May 30, 2008 at 11:58 pm
grin, what’s changed
I mean for you not me of course
Posted by Carol on June 2, 2008 at 5:36 am
Following you around the blogosphere has revealed the same attitudes, just different doctrine, over time. The attitudes seem to motivate you to argue in circles and create discord…but of course, being the same basically as you were “before” you were “enlightened” by your new beliefs (often reflecting the authors you read), you want to teach them out of their “fundy-ism” as you call it. I suppose a person who believes in eating whole foods, untampered by processing, is a food fundy, and that is alright. But, when they want to just worship in spirit and in truth, or when they want to keep their families strong and not send their kids away the minute they turn 18, they are suddenly those bad old fundies. And when you are finished with your new religion, and on to the next, you’ll be thrashing those who believed the “old way” and offerring your witty pokes at their ancient beliefs.
Posted by Carol on June 2, 2008 at 5:39 am
While claiming that some Christian older woman “stabbed” her in the back with the words “i’ll be praying for you,” M. herself always hits at the biblical womanhood blogs with her critiques, and signs her name prefaced by the word “warmly.” Isn’t that a big ironic. Someone can say “I’ll be praying for you” when they disagree, and that is a back stab, but Molly can get on anyone’ s blog and say “warmly” so that somehow, no matter how rude she is, the word “warmly” is supposed to cover it up.
Posted by TulipGirl on June 2, 2008 at 4:01 pm
Carol,
Having “known” Molly for many years online now. . . Having interacted when we’ve strongly disagreed (as well as agreed). . . I’ve got to say I can see evidence of the Lord sanctifying Molly–bringing forth both the Fruit of the Spirit in her life.
Molly and I still do not see eye-to-eye on significant issues, yet. . . I do sense her disagreements as well as agreements are done with warmth, passion, conviction. . . and humility. Imperfectly.
Grace and peace,
Posted by Katherine Gunn on June 2, 2008 at 8:43 pm
Carol~
I’m just curious. Why are you following Molly around on the blogosphere?
Posted by Tyler Dawn on June 3, 2008 at 3:57 am
Gosh did this resonate. I was so opinionated and harsh and as supremely religious about it as those I was criticizing. As we both now know, the only cure is to grow in love. I still struggle with that, but love allows me to “cut a lot of slack” to people and not sweat the small stuff (a category that is growing all the time).
Oh the stories I could tell of things I did and believed and forced on others…..
Posted by molleth on June 8, 2008 at 11:09 pm
Carol,
I generally just shoot from the hip. Sometimes I find that people take strong offense to things that I did not mean that way. Other times, they take strong offense and I *did* mean my words that way.
I’m not sure who you are.? Do I know you from another blog and have I hurt your feelings? I don’t mind you disagreeing with me at all, but do please let me know if I’ve done something to hurt you. I’m sorry if I have. I’m a goofball and I write accordingly.
What can I say? HA! Offense is not my goal, but good meaty discussion is. That’s why I blog. I need that kind of discussion. We can’t have it when everyone agrees. Good thick thinking discussion is so good for us all. That’s why your comment is here instead of banned.
I don’t ban comments. You can write another one about me being rude and rotten, if you want, just to test me on that. (Well, if you start posting porn or advertising your business, I’ll delete the comment, but that’s different).
For what it’s worth, I do mean my words warmly, and I don’t sign “warmly” if I feel like killing someone. I usually use “warmly” to close my “disagreeing” comments because I want to express clearly that I want to discuss and that my tone is friendly-dissent, that I am NOT wanting to beat someone over the head with my differing opinions. Sometimes people assume that a disagreeing opinion is “typed” in a yelling angry voice, and so I use “warmly” to indicate that I’m speaking in a normal voice as if we’re sitting over a cup of coffee having a good strong discussion. Apparently, “warmly” doesn’t help convey that as much as I hoped it did.
For what it’s worth, and just to ease your mind, I actually rarely go out “blog visiting.” There’s only one other blog that I even read regularly, actually (and that’s the truewomanhood blog’s huge blog conversation on the patriocentric stuff, which is something I usually check in on since it was my former life and therefore I enjoy listening in. Other than that, my favorite blogs, and there are many of those, are something I only pop in on weekly, just for sheer lack of TIME).
Recently however (a month ago, two months ago?), I stumbled in on two blogs that had strong forceful opinions that are the opposite of mine in some areas. That would be the momandus blog (which was a very brief stumble, might I add) and the families against feminism blog, and, yes, I have entered (or tried to) into conversations there, albeit very unproductive ones.
But I sure tried to be respectful, even while significantly disagreeing. Is it not okay to disagree? The families against feminism blog welcomes debate in it’s header, calling itself “the great debate” (though, er, they sure don’t seem to like it when I disagree with them in any way. haha!). Well, I just went over there to get the actual quote about the welcoming debate thing, and I see that they’ve changed that. Now it’s “open discussion.” An open discussion about why they disagree with feminism, etc.
So I guess I don’t get it. Is openly disagreeing rude in and of itself? They sure disagree with a lot of things (and say so, forcefully)! In fact, the families against feminism blog is often one big diatribe about everything the author disagrees strongly with. Ha! So…I’m confused. It’s okay to disagree with things that they also disagree with, but it’s rude to disagree with THEM?
Annnnyways, I have to say, participating in an attempt at conversation on these two blogs is not the norm for me. I would love to spend more time in the blogosphere (99.9% so that I could sit and read my fav’s, not run around disgreeing with people, haha) but I just can’t justify the time. In general, I either blog, or I read, because I can’t justify finding the time to do both.
So don’tcha worry because I’m now fully out of your hair. I have no spare time right now to go visiting at your favorite blogs, much less commenting there.
For now.
Muhahahahaaa….
Posted by Katherine Gunn on June 8, 2008 at 11:37 pm