Hold Your Kids to an Unkeepable Standard (Then They Will Understand “Mercy)”

Below are my comments that weren’t allowed.  I’m not sharing them because I want to get the last word in, or because I want to be right, or because I want to debate.  I am just sharing them because this kind of stuff, for lack of a better phrase, truly makes my heart grow heavy.  I’ve been visiting a few blogs like the one referenced below lately, getting, er, depressed.  

The slow and steady marketing of a law-centric “good news” is happening, or, more likely, continuing (just changing it’s look).  Where did the God go whose mercies are new every morning?  If we gave the Father of the Prodigal Son story a letter-grade based on how well He followed our slickly-marketed “Biblical Family” paradigm, He’d get an F.  That should tell you something right there.       

On the post, The Law Leads to Grace, Christian parents are told that parenting God’s way means to hold your children to an unkeepable standard.  That means we are to set a behavioural standard that is impossible to keep and punish them via spanking when they fail to keep it, in order that they will understand God’s mercy.  Long story short, I read, I commented, they responded, and further comments from me were not invited.  But, even though I make it my life policy NOT to do this, I can’t get that post out of my mind (even though thinking about it hurts).  So I will share my moderated-out comments here:  

I  agree that we may only agree on disagreeing. :) Thanks for your gracious tone. But I must say that the picture I see the NT presenting in regards to what the Law does, does not fit well with it being a beneficial tutor.

I’m not sure that because God used the Law, it’s supposed to be replecated in the Christian home. That would be a concept we would extrapolate from the Bible, not find clearly presented there. Because the NT says that the Law is a “ministration of condemnation,” a “ministry of death,” etc.

There is enough law written on our own hearts to let us know we aren’t perfect. Galatians makes clear that nothing but the Spirit is going to enable us to walk in love. Parental discipline is great and has it’s purpose, but it will not give our children love, joy, peace, or anything of that sort.

The Pharisees walked in holy ways and not carnal ways, meaning that their outward behaviour was righteous. But out of everyone that Jesus dealt with, they were the ones He regularly yelled out.

I guess what concerns me is the thought that righteousness can be spanked into a child, and the thought that by making the home a microcosm of the OT unkeepable Law, we will bless our kids. The NT makes it clear: the Law brought death. The Law made sin abound. The Gentiles were receptive to the Gospel WITHOUT having a Law background. So why would we want to bring in a “ministration of death” into homes that should be growing up green shoots of life? Long story short, The problem isn’t the concept of discipline being necessary, so don’t get me wrong. I’m just seeing a lot of theology here that is troubling to me.
I know this won’t be published, but wanted to share these with you. Please know that I am a mother who used to share your same feelings and practices to a great degree. I am not here to “debate” or just to be a pain in the rear. Your posts hurt to read, because I hear my self in them, and I know that you have the very best of intentions at heart. I also believe that what you are doing and teaching is truly not the best thing for children, and not supported by the *whole* of Scripture.

Our job as parents is to reflect God, the Parent. How He parents His children is not by Law. The Prodigal Son’s father, who represents God, did not parent the way you are describing. You and I as new Christians were not parented by an unkeepable standard from God.

Christ made it very clear that He did not come to condemn but to save. Paul tells us in Romans 8 that there is no condemnation in Christ. Neither should we foster condemnation in our homes. The NT tells us that the Law is the ministration of condemnation. It has no place in our parenting. We operate on a wholly different paradigm.

When I was coming out of my former parenting paradigm, I did a study on the words “law” and on the word “grace” in the NT and came away deeply deeply deeply repentant for my former parenting practices. Grieved is not a strong enough word. In my desire to shine God’s heart, I completely misunderstood it and put His name on something that He came to abolish.

I realize that we may agree to disagree. But I wanted to write you one more time, just to share my own heart with you. I’m just one mom talking to another. Please take it for whatever it’s worth.

Some links I wanted to share:
http://lutherama.blogspot.com/2007/09/rod-is-means-of-grace.html

http://lutherama.blogspot.com/2007/10/more-on-tripp-and-spanking.html

http://aholyexperience.com/2006/04/perfectionism.html
(This is written by a dear friend of mine…and my own parenting story is so sadly similar).

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/moodyfamily/disciplineconclusions.html
This is written by a mom of many who was a Lactation Consultant on an Ezzo email loop I was a part of (I tried Ezzo scheduling with my second child…though I quit after 2-3 months of failing at it). I really liked her and was shocked to find that she’d left the Ezzo camp in both scheduling and disciplinary areas! It really surprised me, as she seemed so warm and level-headed (ha–meaning, I felt level-headed people would never leave our mutual concept of the rod and law and all of that–sheesh!)….

Again, I really am all for teaching our kids to obey (which does not necessarily require spanking, interestingly enough, though I didn’t know that before), and I find that spanking is something I still use sometimes with my toddler/preschooler when other things don’t seem to get through and I really need to make a point. So I’m NOT saying that I’m anti-spanking and I’m NOT saying that we shouldn’t teach our children to obey. Not at all. Though I sure look at things differently now than I did then.

In general, I have moved out (and am moving out) of a punishment/performance mode (which took some doing—it was all I’d ever known, both in my own childhood and than as a parent!) and am LOVING life on the other side. I was so wrapped up in performance, both on my kids and on my part (though I didn’t see that, then). “Perform for your approval…perform to be righteous, etc…” How *not* the way God works with us, you know?

I can’t tell you how great it is to put that to one side and concentrate on relationship. It’s messy, it’s WAY more work, but it’s REAL. It mirrors what Jesus did when He walked with His disciples SO MUCH MORE than my previous parenting paradigm did, that’s for sure. And it’s really good. :)

Also applicable to this topic is this, a compilation of posts I and some fantastic guest-bloggers put together not so very long ago, mainly centering on why and how many of us came out of punitive parenting philosophies.  I thought Tripp was fabulous.  I was wrong. 

[Edit to add]: Another excellent post about child-training is right here.  For those of you “trained” by the Pearls as to what training means, you will enjoy this wise successful mom’s opinion.

94 Responses to this post.

  1. Posted by Anette on May 20, 2008 at 10:13 pm

    Molly

    Oh my goodness, this is so sad. I understand you not being able to get this post out of your mind. Right now I am feeling nauseous, purely from the emotional impact of what I read. All the alert lights in my social work background are flashing – that poor girl sometimes have to buy mercy for her children, but she know its better to keep quiet!!! That is not child rearing, but I actually feel to afraid to call it by its name. If you wanted somebody to pray for, you have found her, and now I will have to do that too, in order to get any peace of mind. This blogging business makes to world too small!! :)

  2. I’ve decided to try this blogging thing – or should I say – try it again. My little place on cyberspace: http://placeofgrace.wordpress.com. Please come visit.

  3. Hi Molly,
    I’ve followed the link and read the post you mentioned.

    This sentence for me is a killer. ” “We cannot give him a keepable standard, Brietta.”

    Bullshit. Children need to know that they can accomplish and they need to learn love and grace as early as possible. “Luk 18:16 But Jesus called the children to him and said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.” He did not set a standard for them to find Him. They could come freely without even knowing how “bad” they were.

    I cannot understand how parents who found Jesus and discovered love and grace, now, give their children law to get them to Christ. But then again, when I am a good Pharisee, Jesus has nothing to do with love and grace.

    I’ll stop now or I will begin to foam at the mouth :-?

  4. Hmm… I went and read the post you speak of. This concept… aaahhh! The verse that came to mind is Romans 2:4…

    “Or are you [so blind as to] trifle with and presume upon and despise and underestimate the wealth of His kindness and forbearance and long-suffering patience? Are you unmindful or actually ignorant [of the fact] that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repent (to change your mind and inner man to accept God’s will)?” (Amplified)

    The Law does not lead us to repentance. It can lead us to depression because of our continual failure of ability to keep it. It can lead to outward behavioral changes to keep from getting punished. But God’s KINDNESS leads us to repentance… at least the real kind that is not coerced and therefore has some staying power…

    Now I’ll quit before I get a really good rant worked up…

  5. One passage that started making things clear to me: Galatians 3.

    1You foolish (A)Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ (B)was publicly portrayed as crucified?

    2This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by (C)hearing with faith?

    3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

    5So then, does He who (E)provides you with the Spirit and (F)works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by (G)hearing with faith?

    10For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “(N)CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM.”

    11Now that (O)no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “(P)THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.”

    12However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “(Q)HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM.”

    13Christ (R)redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us–for it is written, “(S)CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON (T)A TREE”–

    The bits in caps are like that in the Biblegateway. I find it very appropriate!

  6. And I forgot. Galatians 2.

    21″I do not nullify the grace of God, for (BA)if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”

  7. Galatians 5:4 says “you are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by law; you are fallen away from grace.”

    Galatians 5:18 says “if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.”

    Carol
    http://parentingfreedom.com/discipline

  8. Posted by Rebecca Campos on May 21, 2008 at 5:37 am

    We do not spank save for *very* rare occasions here and then it is only the youngest (she has had 2 spankings her entire life and those involved my hand and 1 swat which didn’t even hurt physically but she cried like someone was killing her from the sheer SHOCK value of getting a spanking…go figure…if you don’t spank in general then a spanking can be no more than a tap and hurt far worse…kwim?)

    Anyway, it was not always this way. My husband particularly administered spankings. When we finally talked about why, well, it was just because it is what his parents did. So I thought about it and told him that giving a spanking made *ME* feel angry. The process of hitting made me angry inside and it was thus impossible for me to “discipline without anger”. So, I decided that I could not do that anymore.

    I honestly do not believe that when spanking is your first line of defense you can tell me truthfully you have no anger. How can you not provoke your child to wrath with spankings if you yourself feel wrath?

    I have developed a point with my children where I assume the best and for all but 1 of my children now all it takes to punish is to give them ‘the look’ and say I am so disappointed in your actions. They are destroyed and repentent.

    Grace, mercy, love…that is who Jesus is to me. If he is all fire and brimstone and anger and law then I don’t want it. Isn’t promoting fear and anger going to lead our children further away from the church and Christ? If you can never “measure up” then what becomes the point of trying and then apathy takes over.

    I believe this is the key to why the church is losing converts and there are more and more unchurched in this country. People go where love is…that is human nature…and the churches as a whole don’t have LOVE…

    It is why we quit church…

    Rebecca Campos

  9. molly, you are right for pressing the point. it’s unspeakably sad to read that article…so contrary to the way God loves us.

    i truly don’t understand how parents can receive and accept that Jesus DIED to keep the “unkeepable standard” for them, but can’t apply that to their own children.

    i am so grieved to think of the damage that is done spiritually by such thinking.

    thanks for staying in there and preaching the Gospel.

  10. In my experience holding children to a standard that they cannot keep produces people with a performance based faith and life, always trying to measure. Either that, or it produces people who quit trying to do good at all.

    We don’t have to set up walls that our children can’t climb. Since they are human, they have the same problems we have with sin and don’t need any more “law” to further drag them down.

  11. Posted by Atlantic on May 21, 2008 at 9:05 am

    If I understand this correctly, these people are nuts, and not in a good way. This sounds exactly analogous to requiring a person to convert to Orthodox Judaism and trying to keep the Law of Moses for several years before being baptised.

    Besides, as Christians we already have an unkeepable standard: Be perfect. Somehow I think there are ways for parents to teach that lovingly and mercifully.

  12. I think the key to her post was in a later comment: “When my children are older,…” The fact is, she is yet another legalist with YOUNG children who think they have this parenting thing figured out. By clinging to the Law (even as they claim to be free from it) they are clinging to the idea of a Life Recipe that you follow, and out of the oven pops a perfect life, family, ministry, whatever… (Since actually, this WAS the case under the OT Law. Follow the rules exactly, get the promised blessing. Mess up, and you’re toast.) The heart-breaking truth is, she should take a step back and look at the grown children of the people in those circles – a large majority of those kids that are held to this impossible standard don’t just rebel, they end up seriously warped!!! They have trouble functioning in society at all, let alone having a healthy relationship with God or other Christians. Oh, they will point out a few that turned out “right” (by their standards), but if they are honest they will admit the larger majority of their children fail in frustration and despair. We left this kind of church/teaching when we had children for precisely this reason. I didn’t like the odds of doing it their way, I didn’t like the way their kids and families turned out, and I’d seen too many members of my own family get seriously messed up emotionally, mentally and spiritually.

    Sadly, some of these women are by the “luck” of genetics given a passive child, and so when they look at the blank stares of their “submissive” child they congratulate themselves on being great parents. I’m telling you, all of these “Follow the Child Recipe” baby-trainers should get a load of my daughter, a brilliant, strong-willed little firecracker who was labeled a “rebel” in those circles by the ripe ole age of 15 months. It’s called temperment. They’re born with it, and you can’t beat it out of them.

  13. Thanks for the post, Mollers. It’s scary to me, seeing people think that God needs their help in extending His grace to anyone. I see this so much within the church, I guess I shouldn’t be surprised that people are carrying it through in their family lives. It breaks my heart, especially knowing that this is one of the biggest reasons that I have come across for children growing up to reject the Lord and His church.

    *sigh* I don’t know. I’m not against spanking, but it seems that a lot of Christians talk as though they can spank their child into the family of God, and it doesn’t work like that.

  14. Oops, I spelled “temperament” wrong, but you get the idea!!! ;0)

  15. Posted by Jenn on May 21, 2008 at 12:33 pm

    This post, and some of the others on the other blog, are heart wrenching and sad. I just can’t imagine spanking or listening to it night after night after night and not considering that there might actually be a real issue behind the bedtime issues. To me, this would not even be a spiritual issue but a situation where we (dh and I) would need to try to get to the root of the issue. If my memory serves me correctly, this is an ongoing problem for them? At some point, wouldn’t you think there must be an issue here if the spanking isn’t “correcting” the said problem? :(

  16. Posted by mary on May 21, 2008 at 3:24 pm

    Molly,
    Does this mean you won’t be buying a designer paint stck to smack your kid, or planting spoons in every bathroom.Sheesh.Hope social services doesn’t read that blog.I find it repulsive that there is even a bragging/one-upping tone to that discussion. The weird thing is here are several daughters that all seem to have turned out well, and believe this is exactly how God would parent. How does that happen??

  17. I haven’t read all the comments yet. . .

    But I do want to point out that in God’s design, grace precedes law. And even in the giving of the law (ceremonial, civic, and written-moral law), the giving of the law was imbued with grace.

    Too often, I find that people within our broader Christian culture hear “grace” and interpret that as “leniency.” What a sad and demeaning understanding of grace. . .

  18. Also, I have found this to be totally, totally true: “I can’t tell you how great it is to put that to one side and concentrate on relationship. It’s messy, it’s WAY more work, but it’s REAL. It mirrors what Jesus did when He walked with His disciples SO MUCH MORE than my previous parenting paradigm did, that’s for sure. And it’s really good.”

    While I stay away from “formulas” now, I’ve got to say my favorite parenting tool now is “hug&pray.” I’ve heard people say that sounds too wishy-washy, too touchy-feeling, too. . . ineffective? Those people don’t appreciate the power of prayer, and the amazing work of the Holy Spirit in the very moment of conflict, in our children’s hearts (in our mommy-hearts!)

  19. I don’t think anyone would disagree that we all(children and adults alike) are held to a standard that is impossible to keep. Which is why we need to be constantly pointed to Jesus who has become our righteousness – doing for us what we could never do for ourselves.

    But the thing is, we are are neither conscience nor Holy Spirit in our children’s lives. That role has already been filled. In effect, they are already being held to a standard with or without me. And I know that they will fall short of that standard again and again(as do I). And when they do I need to be pointing them to Christ.

    This is not to say that there are no consequences for their actions. But I don’t think for a minute that consequences of any flavor(punitive, natural, etc.) actually impart righteousness. When you get beyond this mindset and no longer think that in strict terms of disobedience and punishment then “discipline’ really takes on a whole new meaning. And your relationship with your kids really expands into new areas as well.

    Kinda rambled. Hope that makes sense.

  20. Brian,
    That was some good rambling. I completely agree. The fact that there is something within us that turns us toward evil/darkness is not something that requires an outward law in order to discover. The inward law that God has written on our hearts gives testimony all by itself. This is what Paul said in the early part of Romans, and this is why the Gentiles could quickly and eagerly accept Christ from a pagan culture—without needing a OT Law background. There is NO passage in Scripture that tells parents to give their children an unkeepable standard. None.

    TG,
    I know. I always thought it sounded way too touchy-feely. But it really is…oddly…powerful. Sad, huh, that as Christians we generally find the concept of embracing a wayward kid and talking to God (inwardly or outwardly together) sounding like an “ineffective” method—as opposed to whopping the kid. Sheesh!

    Mary,
    I blogged very similarly once upon a time, so it’s really interesting for me now to read that kind of stuff and experience what it’s like to hear it as an “outsider.” It made so much sense then…I was a happy participant in ideas and methods (and I had a spanking instrument in every major room). I was a nice sweet mommy who thought it was God’s way for me to demand perfect instant obedience, and I thought that doling out swats were God’s way to get it. Now, it’s honestly horrifying. It makes my stomach lurch. It’s hard to figure out how I got from there to here, because the two worlds are so dramatically different…it is a total paradigm shift. Which is what I had, in more ways than just parenting philosophies, a couple years ago…a “re-meeting” of Jesus, as it were. How much that shift turned what seemed right-side-up then into upside-down now. How much that old parenting paradigm does *not* fit things like the sermon on the mount, the parable of the sheep and goats, the fruits of the Spirit, and on and on the list goes. But yet I was so 100% sure I was being “Biblical” then. It’s all so weird.

    Jenn,
    Agreed. But if you are taught that spanking is The Way God wants you to handle your behavoural problem with your child, then you aren’t going to be able to make that logical step. To you, your choice is to keep on spanking or to disobey God. And that’s what really fires me up about all of this. Because of the way it’s taught, parents have their critical thinking skills shut off. They *have* to obey God, right? And God’s way is spanking, right? So they aren’t able to make simple logical connections when spanking doesn’t “work.” And who pays the worst price for all of this? The authors of the #$% books? No. The parents? No. The little kids. They pay the price for our well-intentioned ERROR. And we (speaking generally), the ones called by God to be a voice for the voiceless, are the ones propigating this ridiculous garbage in the name of God. Urgh.

    Jenna,
    You sweet Lutheran mommy, you. See all the junk you don’t have to deal with, thanks to that good ol’ by faith through grace theology? :) *hugs*

    Angela,
    Boy do you bring up some great points. Like you, we watched the kids. We saw kids in permissive homes doing not so great, so we latched on to the Pearls. But then, as things went on, we saw kids in “strict” homes not doing so great…it helped to start shake up our idol of “if you follow the formula, you’ll have good kids.” And that’s exactly what that is: an idol.

    Atlantic,
    We Prosts have some really interesting theories about the relationship of the Believer to the Law. I think there’s about, oh, say, at least a few hundred different versions of how it all works. But, yes, you are exactly right. I have a feeling this sweet-sounding young family doesn’t actually think that. I think they are probably a lot more like my husband and I were: well-intentioned, but just not having thought the whole thing through. Our parenting paradigm didn’t match our theology at all. It was just almost impossible to see that, due to…hmm, I don’t know. A disconnect, a very strong disconnect. Why it was there, I can only conjecture.
    *shrugs*

    Fred,
    You are so right on. It either produces a performance-based relationship mentality, or it just makes you quit in despair, both of which are NOT the desired outcome.

  21. @Mary: Thanks for noticing that there are “several daughters that all seem to have turned out well”! I married one, so am biased of course, but I assure you that they’re all great—you’d find them quite joyous too!!!

    Lots of good fruit from that family…might sound hard to believe, but I hope you will trust me!

    :)

    On another semi-releated matter but a shameless plug, I’d encourage you to go to one of those daughter’s websites and check out the music album she’s producing. It’s really amazing. (She wrote and produced it all—and she’s only 17!!)

    http://juliamarieband.com/index.php?page_id=7

    My favorite song is Forgive Me—listen all the way through for her solos!

    @Molly: Sorry for the plug, but I’m so proud of my little sister-in-law!!

    @Brian: I ensure you that none of us thinks we’re “imputing righteousness.” That’s just silly and weird. (And obviously unbiblical.)

    @Molly: My hunch is if spent 30 minutes with Brietta and Daniel, and their children, (or any of my extended family), you’d walk away with a different mental model then you have now. I think you’d find them to be great parents and, as you mention you’re not anti-spanking either, so my bet is you wouldn’t find what they’re saying as offsensive as you do. …perhaps it’s belittling (though not intended) of me to suggest that you’re reading their posts through filtered glasses, and that though you think your background is similar to where we’re at, my hunch is it was and is quite different.

    …for what it’s worth.

    (P.S. You family is entirely too cute.)

  22. Tonia,
    I’m not sure if I’m right or not for pressing this. I just couldn’t stop thinking about it, particularly knowing that other young moms are reading it and taking it to heart. Whether this blog post will do any good, though, or only serve to further the divide, time alone will tell, but I’ll admit to doubting it. I know that when I was in that camp, I had a severe allergy to being able to actually *hear* what the other side was saying: I was so conditioned to believe that I believed the Bible, and that they were in error, that my ears were shut off to anything they said.

    I believe this is the key to why the church is losing converts and there are more and more unchurched in this country. People go where love is…that is human nature…and the churches as a whole don’t have LOVE…

    Rebecca, that was a great point. Often our parenting paradigms fit rather well with our adult relationship paradigms. Though we don’t hit our Christian brothers and sisters, we still often relate in the same way: perform, perform, perform, or be punished [by our tsk, tsking, shaming, ostracizing, etc]—and for God’s sake, just do what we say is “Biblical” and don’t ask any questions.

    Carol,
    Great verses–thanks! Galatians pretty much crushes the concept that by using Law we bring our kids to Christ. Though they [Tripp, etc] use Galatians 4 to get the idea that we use law in order to bring kids to Christ, they take it out of the context of the letter… Galatians is a POWERFULLY awesome proclamation that the law has no place in the life of those who belong to the Spirit. And, Galatians 5 tells us how we learn to walk in righteousness…big fat hairy hint: it’s not by spanking.

    Madame,
    Ah yeah, baby. Preach it. :)

    Katherine,
    Can I ditto what I said to madame? Preach it! Good stuff!

    I cannot understand how parents who found Jesus and discovered love and grace, now, give their children law to get them to Christ. But then again, when I am a good Pharisee, Jesus has nothing to do with love and grace.

    You sum it up so well. Why did it take me a full page of rambling and yet you did it in a few lines. Sheesh…

    Anette,
    I linked to you in my sidebar and thanks for telling me. I’m notoriously horrible about blog upkeep and all that. For what it’s worth, I think the family is probably a very nice one. It’s the theological implications of what’s being shared that really troubles me, as well as all the people hearing the message through whatever lenses they may have.

  23. Ryan,
    We were posting at the same time. Thanks for stopping by. For what it’s worth, I would have much rather had this conversation on the momandus blog, politely and respectfully discussing *there,* but conversation like this isn’t allowed. So I moved here. I don’t moderate comments here. If your sil wants to come and defend her comments here, she is more than welcome to. But know that I would have rather let her be on “her” playing field and have had the conversation in a much quieter venue than this one.

    With regards to the family you married into, I’m sure they are VERY nice. Unless the pictures are all lies, they look awesome! :) But I believe what they are teaching others is very wrong. People can be very nice and be very wrong. My family was very nice (we heard regular praise, at least), while being very wrong, for example.

    So the issue here isn’t if they are nice or not. It’s what is being taught. The author Tripp, who is quoted in the post, for example, is probably a very nice man. But what he’s teaching (about holding kids to an unkeepable standard that they might know Christ) is very wrong.

    And that kind of wrong isn’t one of those “side” things, where we can all just agree to disagree and let eachother enjoy the freedom to like whatever color we like on our T-shirt fabric. This particular kind of wrong is the kind that can really screw people up.

    Also, your sil isn’t quietly practicing her view of childrearing (in which case, it would be none of my business, you know?). She’s teaching it and, even more important, saying it is God’s Way to parent. This really changes things.

    So even though it does really look (and I say that with total honesty) like you folks *are* indeed really nice people, being “nice” is neither here nor there in this arena, if you know what I mean. Nice is nice, but that’s not what we’re talking about. If you would like to discuss why you think Tripp is right, etc, in regards to his views on law and children, that would be much more interesting! :)

    Warmly,
    Molly

  24. Hmm… another passage of Scripture that comes to mind regarding the use of the Law after the Jesus died and rose…

    “6-13But Jesus’ priestly work far surpasses what these other priests do, since he’s working from a far better plan. If the first plan—the old covenant—had worked out, a second wouldn’t have been needed. But we know the first was found wanting, because God said,

    Heads up! The days are coming
    when I’ll set up a new plan
    for dealing with Israel and Judah.
    I’ll throw out the old plan
    I set up with their ancestors
    when I led them by the hand out of Egypt.
    They didn’t keep their part of the bargain,
    so I looked away and let it go.
    This new plan I’m making with Israel
    isn’t going to be written on paper,
    isn’t going to be chiseled in stone;
    This time I’m writing out the plan in them,
    carving it on the lining of their hearts.
    I’ll be their God,
    they’ll be my people.
    They won’t go to school to learn about me,
    or buy a book called God in Five Easy Lessons.
    They’ll all get to know me firsthand,
    the little and the big, the small and the great.
    They’ll get to know me by being kindly forgiven,
    with the slate of their sins forever wiped clean.
    By coming up with a new plan, a new covenant between God and his people, God put the old plan on the shelf. And there it stays, gathering dust.” Hebrews 8:6-13 (Message)

    The last line says a great deal, I think. Hebrews 9 continues on the same lines. Referring to Galatians, it puts it rather bluntly in chapter 5. We can’t do both – new covenant or old. Our choice. But they don’t mix, so… I know which one I prefer. The one with the easy yoke and the light burden. ;-)

  25. Posted by anon on May 22, 2008 at 12:56 am

    There’s one HUGE problem I have with the philosophy that spanking rids the child from guilt, that somehow the child has this need to release the guilt, know the infraction has been paid for, etc…
    Spanking won’t do that.

    I was spanked a lot as a kid. It was THE main tool for discipline.
    I was afraid of telling my parents that I had disobeyed them, and that lead to lying, to cover up for my offense. Maybe if I’d known that I could tell my parents that I had (for example) eaten a candy at school (we had to bring ALL of it home…), and known that they would have explained why it’s wrong to disobey, yet not spanked me, I probably would have confessed more often, and maybe I would have obeyed more joyfully instead of disobeying and trying to cover up. I didn’t understand the importance of confession, seeking forgiveness and the release that comes from accepting the forgiveness, because confession lead to being spanked, and not confessing avoided it.

    The result was a guilt ridden little girl, seeking for affection and affirmation everywhere. I did very well at school, but it was a constant strive for approval, and I cried a LOT, even at school.

    I love my parents. They are the most loving people I know, honestly. They loved me then, and they spanked me with all the good intentions. But I can’t REALLY be honest with them. Our relationship was definitely vertical, and I feared them more than I trusted them.

    Later in life, I developed what is called a “spanking fetish”. This is probably very, very distasteful for you all, but it has been connected to spanking, especially in the preteen and teen years.

    Spanking in love can have a huge repercussion on a person’s sexual life, making it nigh to impossible for that person to have a healthy sexual relationship with their spouse.

    I don’t know how to take the Proverbs that speak of beating with the rod. I have three children myself, and I struggle with discipline.
    First I believed I SHOULD spank them. Then I started feeling awful about it when I noticed they cowered away from me when they saw me walk into the room and they were up to no good.

    Since I don’t punish if they have done something and they confess, I have noticed that my 4 year old already comes and tells me what he’s done. Restitution is important, of course, but he doesn’t get punished.
    For example, if he hit his brother, he has to repent, got and say sorry, and if he took something away he has to give it back.

    I want my children to have a life without the constant guilt that I had. I want them to know that they can tell me the truth without fear, because I will honor their truthfulness.
    I want them to understand that God loves them, and that doesn’t mean that he is up there, with a huge stick in his hand, waiting for them to disobey so he can punish them, but I want them to know that he loves them enough to correct them. How can I get that across through spanking???? I hid from my parents, and I tried to hide from God! I was constantly trying to avoid the spanking and any other repercussions.

    Sorry for the rambling. I had to get this off my chest.
    I hope it’s ok, Molly. If it’s TMI, you can delete it.

  26. Anonymous~

    I hope Molly keeps it. It is information parents need to know. I am sorry for the way you were affected. I understand. Whippings with a belt were part of my childhood – even part of my potty training. It has severe effects on the way we – the children – relate to God as our Father.

    ((hug))
    Katherine

  27. Molly,

    In regards to the use of the law in understanding grace and mercy, it’s interesting to me that when writing to the Corinthians who were having a lot of problems with their behavior in every imaginable way Paul DIDN’T mention the law in his first letter and only once in his second letter. He simply showed his confidence in the gospel as greater than the wisdom of the Corinthians.

    Yet when he did use the law in his argument it was to the Galations who were legalists in their use of the law and his argument was that even the law wasn’t a help in becoming or living the Christian life.

    I’m afraid there are some logical connections being made between the use of the law and it opening the way for an understanding of grace that may not be seen that clearly in scripture.

    I’m late to the comment party and am addressing the orginal point only. There are some great comments that expand that point however. Good work on this subject by all.

  28. I made a comment on the Momandus blog that simply said, “Nice to meet you. Your quote from Galatians 3 reminded me of some other verses in that book,” and I went on to quote more verses from Galatians (same as the ones at the beginning of the comments here), and I was very surprised my comment was rejected. How can they refuse to publish Scripture?

    Outside of culture and tradition, I can’t seem to find Biblical evidence that supports keeping spanking in the parenting toolbox, even as a last resort. I am soooo thankful to be rid of the confusion and heartache that I went through after getting advice similar to what was on the Momandus blog.

    I come here as a mother who rejected any form of punishment a while back, while continuing to discipline (as in teach), and I want other parents to know that it works.

    I have a mother and a grandmother who also deeply regret having anything to do with punishing their children in the past.

    My children range from toddler to teen, and I thankfully see God’s blessings on their hearts. My biggest discipline problem in the past few years has been trying to decide what is best regarding limits on video games. Any advice? *grin*

    http://parentingfreedom.com/discipline/
    http://parentingfreedom.com/samuelmartinbook.pdf
    http://www.freewebs.com/suffer-the-little-children/

  29. Molly, please delete my second comment. I didn’t think the first went through. Sorry to waste your time with removing it.

  30. Posted by Hope T. on May 22, 2008 at 5:08 am

    I am wondering on what basis the “unkeepable” standard is decided. Things like lying, stealing, and harming another person are all offenses that are covered in the Law and would be deemed punishable offenses. But what about getting out of bed (toddler) or speaking out of turn (preschooler) or the old “squirming on the changing table” (baby)? This is where one either has to discard Biblical law for human preference or claim that those “extras” are covered under honoring one’s mother and father. Problem is that this gives parents the right to require anything they want from their children without regard to their stage of development. I know that phrases like “stage of development” are frowned upon in some circles because of a connection to worldly psychological methods. But where are the standards going to come from? Who decides and on the basis of what information that squirming on the changing table is a spankable offense?
    I guess I am just surprised that people think this way about little people who are just a few years or in some cases months out of the womb. Also, I am not seeing how this is a disconnect from theology. It seems a direct tie-in as evidenced by the commenters here who have a hard time seeing God in a light other than punitive.

  31. Posted by Jen on May 22, 2008 at 6:25 am

    I know many families ( I can think of 5 right now) who have followed these types of methods (pearls, etc) who have grown-up children now who are wonderful, well-adjusted, loving, God-honoring people who have no problems with the way they were raised. I don’t know how to look at that and completely dismiss it. I mean do you just write it off as luck? I am honestly very confused at this point. I only have small kids so I don’t have any real experience myself, but when I look around for role models (like, “I hope my children turn out like that”) this is what I see. What do you think?
    Jen

  32. Posted by Kate on May 22, 2008 at 6:25 am

    I’ve never heard this idea before. I really don’t understand what it means. We are all held to an unkeepable standard and as parents if we use God’s standard of raising our children they are already being held to an unkeepable standard. So what does she mean by that?

    Is it just another way of saying they have to be consistent in discipline, which I agree with, because not to be consistent would be to lower the standard? I don’t know, but the wording makes it sounds as if they are setting their children up for failure and that I don’t get. We all fail. My job as parent when my children fail is to point them to God and the cross, to support them, love them, but it’s not my job to make them fail.

    My biggest deal with the article is the way that the mom feels a need to ask for mercy for her child and bites her lip sometimes instead. While I am sad when my children sin and my husband or I disciplines them I can’t remember ever feeling like that. But I guess that’s because my children aren’t being spanked for everything. Spanking is rare around here. The discipline they receive might be unpleasant for them (extra chores, grounding) but I don’t ever feel like it is something I can hardly bear for them to receive like what this woman seems to be describing.

    We actually have a 4yo child right now that is getting out of bed almost every night because she is scared. Usually I pray for her and she reluctantly goes back to bed, but occasionally she is just really upset and I let her sleep on the sofa in the living room and then put her to bed later. She often comes to our bed in the middle of the night after a nightmare. I’m not thrilled with this because she’s kicks :-) , but I don’t think it’s an obedience issue. She’s frightened. I remember those feelings when I was little. I had terrible nightmares for a long time and my mother would often come sleep with me. I can’t imagine how I would have felt back then if I had to choose between being frightened in my room or getting disciplined for getting out of bed. It would have been awful.

    I don’t think the specific issue was explained in the article about the nightly spankings it may be completely different, but I’m thinking they would see my daughter’s actions as sinful. I don’t and I prefer to help my daughter get past her fears rather than punishing her for them. We’ve had other children go through this and I don’t see them raising hell because I didn’t discipline them for getting out of bed. And my oldest is 19 next month, so I have a somewhat bigger perspective on this than she does.

    Whew! Didn’t know it was gonna be a book.

  33. (Molly, I posted this two times, but I think it didn’t go through because it contained three links – please delete the first two tries. THANKS!)

    I made a comment on the Momandus blog that simply said, “Nice to meet you. Your quote from Galatians 3 reminded me of some other verses in that book,” and I went on to quote more verses from Galatians (same as the ones at the beginning of the comments here), and I was very surprised my comment was rejected. How can they refuse to publish Scripture?

    Outside of culture and tradition, I can’t seem to find Biblical evidence that supports keeping spanking in the parenting toolbox, even as a last resort. I am soooo thankful to be rid of the confusion and heartache that I went through after getting advice similar to what was on the Momandus blog.

    I come here as a mother who rejected any form of punishment a while back, while continuing to discipline (as in teach), and I want other parents to know that it works.

    My children range from toddler to teen, and I thankfully see God’s blessings on their hearts. My biggest discipline problem in the past few years has been trying to decide what is best regarding limits on video games. Any advice? *grin*

    I have a mother and a grandmother who also deeply regret having anything to do with punishing their children in the past. One of my sets of great-grandparents raised ten boys without ever using physical punishment.

    I recall the occasions when I explained “spanking” to two of my children. The shock and disbelief on their faces was similar to how they looked when I explained abortion.

  34. @Molly: In general, and as I understand it (the gals may disagree) but Momandus isn’t a platform to “defend” their principles and beliefs. You’ve mentioned before that that’s “fair enough” and so you probably shouldn’t bring it up anymore as it comes across as trying to discredit them.

    Secondly and honestly, it’s hard to debate with you. You’re arguments are very verbose, and either I’m a little slow and thick in the head, or you’re not very lucid. (Perhaps there’s a third option where we’re both the heros, but I’m not that optimistic!) More importantly though, I maintain that you setup strawmen and so it’s hard to defend my (or our) position when you we can’t agree on what I’m saying.

    Lastly, I understand that “nice” and errant are not mutually exclusive. I’ve seen a lot of outwardly impressive Mormons in my day. My point wasn’t just that their nice, but that they’re lives reflect something eternal, and if you knew them you might read their posts in a different light. Again, my point wasn’t that they’re nice, but that knowing them would build a mental model that I’m not convinced you have—as arrogant as that sounds of me to suggest! (More, this is an example of the lack of communication I’m talking about. I wasn’t saying “nice proves truth”, and yet you spent most of your comment as if that’s what I said!)

  35. Posted by Anonymous on May 22, 2008 at 7:20 am

    When a parent breaks or violates the spirit of a child, especially in the name of morality, perfection, or God, then this can lead to spiritual despair. It’s that bad.

    (a big hug to the other Anon)

  36. Posted by Anonymous on May 22, 2008 at 9:09 am

    I started counseling recently because I was struggling with the amount of stress, anger and frustration I was feeling in raising my very young children (one with a touch of autism). I struggle with severe bouts of insecurity, inadequacy, doubt and constant fear. Of course he’s started by going back to how I was raised…

    I was raised in a Christian home where the main source of discipline was spanking. I don’t know though that I feel that the spankings themselves are what have me messed up so terribly right now but the overall environment or attitude of this “unkeepable” standard. Nothing I did was ever enough as a child and now, I feel completely ambivalent toward God because I feel that nothing I do now, as His child, is enough. The guilt of just being a human person that messes up from time to time is enough to make me just want to give up. I know Christ died for my sins but the pervasive attitude of “you’re not doing enough and you’ll never be enough” is all I can hear. So it’s not the spankings that I resent so much but the teaching of constant fear, constant guilt, constant examination of how sinful I am and how unworthy I am. When the counselor asked me what I think God thinks of me, all I could think of was “flawed.” I know all the verses that talk about how He loves me, I’ve read The Father’s Love Letter” a hundred times, but when I think of what God really thinks of me, I see a burden – an “again, the Israelites sinned in the eyes of the Lord” or how my life is a vapor and how “nothing” I am.

    It seems there are two sides to Christianity – the law argument and the grace argument and I’m trying to find my way to the middle ground that I am convinced God was really about. My problem is that I can’t get out of my head all the “this is the right way and if you mess this up you’re going straight to hell for narrow is the way” argument. And the verse about how God will turn one side away as they cry “Savior” because He never knew them is used by both sides and invokes fear as well. Who’s right? Reading Scripture only confuses me further because of all the other voices I’ve head use them to further their version of the Truth for the past 30 some years.

    I know God isn’t the author of confusion but it seems that today’s Christianity certainly is. (Oh man, sorry about the novel-length comment!)

  37. Posted by Hope T. on May 22, 2008 at 9:30 am

    Anonymous,

    You are not alone in this struggle. I hope that you (and I) and others experiencing this can find our own voice, the one God gave us when He created us. Talking about it is a good place to start, I think. As to where to go from there, I don’t know.

  38. Molly,

    I think you are right to *press* the issue for the sake of other people…not really for the sake of the momandus gang, although I hope they will hear you. I, too, know what it is like to see so clearly in black and white that it is impossible to see the other side until the Holy Spirit rips off the veil. But others are watching, reading, learning and I absolutely think you are right for talking about these things in the open.

    As far as Ryan’s comments go, there are plenty of us walking around who were able to make that kind of parenting work on our kids, and even raised nice kids who loved the Lord. I take that as the mercy of God to bring good out of our foolishness. We were still wrong.

    I am so thankful that God gave me a kid who couldn’t possibly survive in that kind of parenting situation to teach me His truth. The fact is, by using this method of setting an unkeepable standard we are usurping the Holy Spirit’s role in our children’s lives and putting a stumbling block before them instead of bringing them gently to the Lord’s knee without fear.

    I truly don’t understand why anyone would want to burden their children with such a weight when it is possible to teach them from the beginning of the wonderful grace and freedom of Christ….something that took my 20+ christian years to grasp. (Although I used the words and language of grace, I did not understand them at all.)

    ~ I really don’t think you are too verbose or hard to understand, Molly. If anything, you go out of your way to explain clearly what you want to say. I do think it is hard to hear when you are not ready to receive the message.

    God bless,

    Tonia

  39. Secondly and honestly, it’s hard to debate with you. You’re arguments are very verbose, and either I’m a little slow and thick in the head, or you’re not very lucid.

    Goodness, I do hope there’s a third option since I can understand her perfectly!

    Molly, I love this. So glad you posted these comments here, and so sorry they were moderated out of the original venue. I try to stay away from full-blown discussions of parenting practices since I’m not a parent yet and am fully aware that I will probably toss at least half of my childrearing philosophies out the window once I am, but I had to say again what I’ve said here before– I have seen people seriously, deeply damaged by the sort of parenting you’re speaking against. My sister continues to reveal bits and pieces of her relationship with her ex-boyfriend, who was spanked for infractions from a very young age, and to call his current outlook on life warped would be putting it very mildly indeed. He is so deeply entrenched in the performance mentality that it will be God and God alone who digs him out now– he “performs” to a spectacular degree.

    My sister said she would venture to guess that only a handful of people know what he’s like behind closed doors, when people aren’t watching him. He tried to impose much of this performance mentality on her as well, and I don’t doubt that if they had gone through with their plans to marry he would have only imposed stricter “rules” still. I do believe it was only through the grace of God that she was able to see just what a crippling life she would lead if they went ahead with their plans to marry, and she broke it off (if you knew my sister you’d know what a miracle it was that she was even able to find the courage to do so!).

    Jen, you asked about families that raised children with these methods and “lucked out.” I don’t know any such families personally, so what I will say here is pure conjecture, but here goes!

    I think that some children are born with a naturally more compliant nature– I was one of them, and my sister was as well. Even if my mother had chosen to go this particular route in her parenting (routine swats for every infraction) I doubt that between us my sister and I would have warranted more than a handful of spankings over the course of our entire childhood, simply due to our personalities. It is my supposition that the families you see where this approach appears to work are actually families with children who have similar personalities– the children who don’t “require” nightly paddlings to keep them in bed, children who obey the first, at most the second time they are asked to do something simply because that’s how God designed them. Such children would be better able to adhere to a set standard not because of how strictly it was imposed on them, but rather simply because it happens to better fall within their capacity to do so. They would as a result require less “breaking” of their will, and as a result I would guess that they would reach adulthood –well– unbroken. :)

  40. “…by using **this** method of setting an unkeepable standard” (emphasis mine)

    @Tonia: In 50 words or less can you specifically articulate this “unkeepable standard” that my “gang” is guilty of? Note that Molly is “all for teaching our kids to obey,” so what is it that we* require of our children that is so apprehensible and unkeepable?

    50 words or less. :)

    *Specifically MY family, not some imagination of who we are. Or perhaps I misunderstood and you weren’t talking about us?

  41. Ryan – I’m glad none of you think that you’re imputing(I said imparting – a bit of a difference) righteousness. I based my comments on the whole of what was being talked about – not just the Momandus blog but others comments and the references to Tripp. So don’t take it as specifically directed to “the gals”. But it’s hard to read Tripp and not come away thinking spanking is an essential tool in turning the child’s heart towards God. Throw in Pearl and Ezzo and you have spanking being the silver bullet for turning out Christians.

    Hope T. – I was thinking the same thing about the parents personal preference rising to the level of law. What happens is that “rebellion” is the umbrella sin under which every thing can be lumped and for which spanking is the appropriate response. You wonder if there is anything which is not a spankable offense.

    Molly – You may be a little long-winded :) but I had no trouble following you.

    Ryan(again) – If you’re gonna accuse someone of building straw men then how about a couple of examples? If you’re being misunderstood then by all means take a few minutes and clarify what your position is.

  42. Ryan,

    I didn’t mean to sound flippant about you and your family (*gang*), I was using shorthand, I guess, in a hurry. I apologize for coming off that way.

    I think I’ll pass on your invitation to summarize. It would be redundant. The comment box is full of good explanations and explorations of the issue – although they aren’t limited by word count. If you want to know my story and approach specifically, Molly’s linked to it in her post.

    I’m in a hurry today, sorry to be so brief. Please know my tone is not meant to be rude or argumentative.

    Tonia

  43. Yo, Ryan—I too am in a hurry—busy day—but wanted to comment that I don’t think anyone is intending to bash your family, particularly yours, since I have no clue how you discipline. This post is commenting on your sister in law’s teaching about the way God wants us to discipline our children. It’s also commenting on Tripp/Pearl/Ezzo, etc, methods-at-large.

    If you disagree, please feel free to explain why. This isn’t a post about your family, it’s about beliefs and the resulting actions that accompany them.

    For example, just touching on one issue your sil brought up in her post: Why is it God’s way to punish a child who you know to be exhausted. She said it was because not showing them mercy will lead them to the mercy of Christ. ?

    Why is it not God’s way to give the kid a hug (letting him know his actions weren’t okay and you’d appreciate it if he tries to do better next time, but doing so with warmth and tenderness) and send him affectionately off to bed where he obviously needs to be. Why does the child need to be punished? How does that lead him to Christ better than hugging him, warmly correcting him but doing so mercifully, and sending him to bed?

    I may be a little over-verbal, harhar, but the above questions are fair. Please know that my desire isn’t to “attack” your family or your sil’s family. She put her teaching out there and authoritatively proclaimed it to be God’s way. In her post, she taught other parents that granting mercy to a kid who’s melting down due to tiredness is not God’s way. It’s fair for someone to disagree and to present another view.

    I realize that makes you feel attacked, but please know that’s not my intent or goal—none whatsoever. Your sil is teaching something authoritatively as God’s Way. I am questioning whether or not she is being accurate. (If this is not okay to do, please help me understand why).

    And now, the verbal me (with the lightning quick typing fingers—forgive the many typos) is getting back to the fifty-million things I need to be doing! :)

    GREAT comments—-so many I want to respond to but will have to do it later. Thanks, all, for a great discussion…

  44. Posted by Jenn on May 22, 2008 at 12:07 pm

    @Ryan- Would you mind sharing what “nice” standards are? :)

    I was raised in a spanking, quite authoritarian home. When people looked at our family, we were nice kids. (there’s 5 of us :) ) I can often remember comments my parents would get about what good kids we were, polite, respectful, cheerful. Unfortunately, this did not reflect what happened in the heart of children who were “disciplined” in ways that honestly almost broke the spirit right out of us. It all came crashing down when one of my sister’s got pregnant. The first response was “how could you do this to us?” This made the consequence of my sister’s actions not about her at all but all about my parents own peception of their failure as parents.

    I’m NOT saying that this is how your family (immediate or otherwise) functions just that “nice” can have so many interpretations…….

  45. Hmm… I think I posted these Scriptures on another of your posts, but they are very relevant to this discussion. So…

    “Fathers, do not irritate and provoke your children to anger [do not exasperate them to resentment], but rear them [tenderly] in the training and discipline and the counsel and admonition of the Lord.” Ephesians 6:4 (Amplified)

    “Fathers, do not provoke or irritate or fret your children [do not be hard on them or harass them], lest they become discouraged and sullen and morose and feel inferior and frustrated. [Do not break their spirit.]” Colossians 3:21 (Amplified)

    The context of these Scriptures is instructing children and parents how to relate. Kids, obey your parents. Parents, don’t break your kids. Pretty plain.

    Guess that’s enough, for now. ;-)

  46. Brian wrote, “Throw in Pearl and Ezzo and you have spanking being the silver bullet for turning out Christians.”

    @Brian: Several years ago my father-in-law (the husband/dad to the momandus gals) were in Turkey on a missions trip. I remember clearly arguing some point with him, and to illustrate I dogmatically said, “Even you believe that by raising your children the way you do, it will assure your kids salvation!” I thought for sure I had trapped him! (I was just a foolish young buck!)

    And I remember very clearly that I, in some way, had pierced him, and he responded very soberly and with a look of desperation said, “No Ryan. This is why I pray and cry out to God daily on their behalf.”

    As for Pearl/Ezzo, I don’t know much about either of these guys. I read maybe three pages of Pearl but got quickly turned off by the reference to children being like a mule (or something like that.) It just felt “off.”

    I do like Shepherding a Child’s Heart by Tripp—I’m not gonna try and defend everything about the guys theology but I can chew the meat and spit out the bones. I think there are some great nuggets in it about biblical parenting.

    Molly said, “In her post, she [Brietta] taught other parents that granting mercy to a kid who’s melting down due to tiredness is not God’s way.”

    @Brian: This is a strawman.

    @Molly: She didn’t teach that. You’re reading into her post something that’s not there. More, she even says, “there must be much room for childish behavior and endless time given to instruction.”

    Molly said, “How does that lead him to Christ better than hugging him, warmly correcting him but doing so mercifully, and sending him to bed?”

    @Brian: This is a strawman.

    @Molly: None of my extended family said that times of mercy are *better* at “leading to Christ” than times of consequence. As a matter of fact, my wife touched upon an illustration from her family:

    “Eldon Wilson likes to illustrate the gospel with a story that took place at my house. My younger brother had committed some crime, and my mother was disciplining him in the room next to the guest room where Dr. Wilson was staying. He heard her say, “Son, what do you deserve?” (sniffle) “A spanking.” “Yes, that’s right, you do. But son, I am going to show you mercy. Do you know what that means?…”

    ( http://momandus.com/2008/03/26/how-to-deal-with-fighting/#comment-187 )

    Wow. It’s late again.

  47. Molly
    You are right, this is a very nice family, when I first responded, I was quite upset. Since its been nearly three days, I had time to brood over it, and think and pray. After reading Jenn’s comment, I suddenly realized what it was that had upset me so much. I grew up in such a home. My parents loved and tried to raise us in a godly way. It was however very authoritarian and very moral. We were five children and I was the oldest. Luckily I was quite complaint, especially when I was very young. My younger brother, on the other hand, was not. He was very often in trouble. He grew up thinking that he can never measure up, and he ended up committing suicide when he was 27. I know that people always told my parents how well behaved we all were. I know that Jaco was always welcome at his friends homes and their parents thought he was a good and welcome friend to their children.

    I do know that my parents never thought it over to give us an “unkeepable standard”. It was just the way children were raised, generation after generation. Oh yes, and I did turn out quite nicely. But it took a lot of prayer and counseling to get to the point where I could experience God the Father as somebody who loves me regardless. Yes I had to get to know Jesus and my children have to meet Him themselves. Then we choose to live out of His love and the law of His love is probably way more “unkeepable” than anything we can come up with. We have to be willing to go a second mile, turn the other cheek etc. Sounds like a cliché, but go try it! which also takes me to a place where I have to apologise to this family, I reacted emotionally, and although I have difficulty understanding their beliefs, I do understand that they love their children and want to do the best for them.

  48. Posted by mary on May 23, 2008 at 5:30 am

    I guess one of the problems with the idea that this type of discipline is “God’s method”. is that it should work for all children–even those with special needs. But it doesn’t. Unless I am misunderstanding something it seems The Mom and Us blog is putting the label on this as being “God’s Way”. Why does a form of discipline or a particular lifestyle have to be labeled ‘God’s way’, would it be wrong to leave it in the realm of ‘this is what God has revealed to me for my family’? Why the need to put everyone in the same box? Doesn’t God’s creation witness to his incredible creativity and diversity. Are all families who are ‘right’ the mother-at-home, large family,homeschooling,rod wheeling, model?( I am in no way criticizing this model—I have lived this model) I am just saying that I resist the idea that there is one prescribed way.
    For all the people who follow Pearl/Tripp etc. there are just as many who follow Tim Kimmel and other grace based methods–both believe they are following the Lord. In both camps some children ‘turn out well’ and some don’t. As Ryan pointed out his FIL said “This is why I pray and cry out to God daily on their behalf.” Maybe our arrogance lies in giving our parenting (in any form) more credit than Gods act of mercy and grace. I grew up in a non-Christian home with very permissive parents. However, I was saved at 16. My life has been far from perfect and mistakes have been made, but trust me I knew my need for a savior! As a parent of many of the three I have launched into adulthood I have two who are following the Lord and one prodigal. Interestingly with these three older children I was a dedicated SAHM, home schooled, used the Pearl/Tripp discipline, and yet a prodigal. Hmmm. In the arrogance of my youth I was certain I was parenting God’s Way and that this could not possibly happen to my family. And I can bet that anyone with young children who reads this will also think the same. So, the most accurate statement that has come out of all of this debate goes back to what Ryan’s FIL said—and there it should remain.

  49. Posted by mary on May 23, 2008 at 5:38 am

    #edit# I realized after I posted that my statement “?( I am in no way criticizing this model—I have lived this model) ” is not accurate. Although I have lived this model in hindsight–and with the children I still have in my home, I do discipline differently.

  50. Posted by Anne on May 23, 2008 at 6:32 am

    I submitted the following two paragraphs to “The Law Leads to Grace” link provided by Molly above. For some reason it’s still awaiting moderation.

    My children are all grown and believers. It was not easy. I gave up spanking and gave my children Christ, telling them that He kept the law for them. However, if they misstepped they were reminded of our true nature, put in the corner and reminded they were getting off easy and to consider what it cost Christ for our missteps.

    With spanking, I was sick of seeing them out of focus and edging closer to exasperation as they grew older. I am sorry that I ever spanked, it was not productive.

    Your comment is awaiting moderation.

  51. Gees. I read that original post you linked. Insane. Just blindingly, maddeningly insane. How can someone believe in doing that to their kids?

  52. Posted by Amy on May 23, 2008 at 9:34 am

    Molly,

    I’m curious…what Bible do you read? We are trying to make a decision about versions (I was raised KJV mostly) but I”ve heard so much about different versions, I’m a little confused.

  53. “Shepherding a Child’s Heart by Tripp—I’m not gonna try and defend everything about the guys theology but I can chew the meat and spit out the bones.”

    Some people are discerning enough to find the good, but some people just choke on the bones.

  54. Amy,
    I read a variety of different translations today. My favorites are the NASB, the KJV, the New English Bible ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_English_Bible —love how it does the epistles—great reading), the New Jerusalem Bible ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Jerusalem_Bible this is a Catholic Bible, and I looove how it does the Psalms—Yahweh usage is cool!), the Message Bible (no, it’s not an actual translation, but sometimes it’s just really fun to read, plus my kids LOVE it), and more…

    A great blog to visit is the Better Bibles Blog linked on my sidebar. It’s run by a team of Bible Translators and they have some GREAT stuff on Bible translations.

    Basically, there is no perfect translation, in my opinion. Hence why we call them “translations.” But there are a lot of really good ones out there. :)

    And now, I run back to my (very loud) Real Life…

  55. Quote: “For all the people who follow Pearl/Tripp etc. there are just as many who follow Tim Kimmel and other grace based methods–both believe they are following the Lord. In both camps some children ‘turn out well’ and some don’t. . . . Maybe our arrogance lies in giving our parenting (in any form) more credit than Gods act of mercy and grace.”

    Mary, what you wrote reminds me of one of my favorite quotes, from a woman who has “gone the distance” and brings maturity and wisdom to other mothers. I keep it among my quotes for mommy-inspiration because it helps me keep Christ as my focus in parenting.

    Quote:
    “And lastly, and I say this gently, as the parent of grown kids, knowing *insert parenting guru* is also the parent of grown kids: we have wonderful children–he does, I’m sure–and so do I. But without even knowing his children I can know this about them: they are not perfect. They hurt. They make mistakes. They struggle. They are prideful and overly simplistic at times; and crippled by shame and hesitancy at others. Yes–they are beautiful examples of human beings, his children (I assume), and mine (I know.) But they are not perfect. If they were, they would not be human. If it were possible to raise children to perfection, then God would have sent a parenting method, not Jesus. Our marching orders are not to raise our children by a method to be like *insert parenting guru* children. Our marching orders are to be Christians to and with our children.” –katiekind

  56. Quoting Ryan and a family story, “As a matter of fact, my wife touched upon an illustration from her family: “Eldon Wilson likes to illustrate the gospel with a story that took place at my house. My younger brother had committed some crime, and my mother was disciplining him in the room next to the guest room where Dr. Wilson was staying. He heard her say, “Son, what do you deserve?” (sniffle) “A spanking.” “Yes, that’s right, you do. But son, I am going to show you mercy. Do you know what that means?…”

    I have found one of the areas in which there is a disconnect when I talk with other loving, Christian parents about discipling children, is the matter of the underlying theological assumptions we bring to the table. I would assume many (if not most) of us in this discussion would adhere to a common core of Biblical Christian beliefs. Yet, I realize where we place theological emphases and how we’ve thought through the implications of our beliefs lead us in different directions.

    For example, in the above illustration, the child says his sin deserves a spanking, and that is reinforced by the adults in his life. However, in our family, Romans 3:23 bring us to a different conclusion. “The wages of sin is death. . .” My children’s sin. . . MY SIN. . . does not deserve a spanking. Sin is a violation against the holiness of God. What we deserve is death.

    Before anyone misunderstands me, I’m not advocating the death penalty as a parenting technique! *eg* Yet, it is a gross underestimation of the very ugly sinfulness of sin to lead our children (or ourselves) to believe that a simple spanking–or any other punishment–is the just desserts of our sin.

    Christ has already borne my sin, my children’s sin, on the cross.

    To punish my child for their sin is “double jeopardy.” To teach my children that they “deserve” a spanking because of their sin, reduces the gravity of Christ’s sacrifice.

    I sometimes get quizzical looks when I’ve said that Berkhof has had the greatest impact on my parenting practices. But, it’s true. Understanding the implications of my faith and theology has changed both my heart and my approach to discipling my children.

  57. TulipGirl~

    Thank you for that quote!

  58. Errr. . . Quoted Rom 6:23 above. Typo. But don’t want to mislead anyone.

  59. Tulipgirl – Thanks for that. We all deserve death but Christ has taken that penalty for us. Now sometimes there are consequences for actions. But to couch those consequences in the language of sin and restoration is to diminish the Gospel.

  60. TulipGirl wrote, “For example, in the above illustration, the child says his sin deserves a spanking, and that is reinforced by the adults in his life. However, in our family, Romans 6:23 bring us to a different conclusion. ‘The wages of sin is death..’” And more she wrote, “To punish my child for their sin is ‘double jeopardy.’ To teach my children that they ‘deserve’ a spanking because of their sin, reduces the gravity of Christ’s sacrifice.”

    @TullipGirl: Wow, you’ve entirely mischaracterized my familes theology. Do really believe there should be no consequences for sin in this life?

  61. @Brian: When a child willfully hits another child, is that a sin? If so, and the consequence was to go and apologize, would that diminish the gospel?

  62. Brian and Ryan,
    This is the way I understand TulipGirl when she says:

    ” For example, in the above illustration, the child says his sin deserves a spanking, and that is reinforced by the adults in his life. However, in our family, Romans 3:23 bring us to a different conclusion. “The wages of sin is death. . .” My children’s sin. . . MY SIN. . . does not deserve a spanking. Sin is a violation against the holiness of God. What we deserve is death.”

    I believe she means the wages of SIN is DEATH. If we teach that the wages of SIN is SPANKING then we diminish the Gospel.

    She explains it in her next paragraph very nicely:

    ” Before anyone misunderstands me, I’m not advocating the death penalty as a parenting technique! *eg* Yet, it is a gross underestimation of the very ugly sinfulness of sin to lead our children (or ourselves) to believe that a simple spanking–or any other punishment–is the just desserts of our sin. ”

    One thing is to explain to children that they are paying for their sin through that spanking, and another is to make children understand that there are consequences for the disobedience here on earth.

    I’ll try to explain: A spanking/ time-out/ sit beside mama quietly/ no playing until you have picked up all that mess you made (disobeying me) are all, I think, RESTITUTION, but not payment for sin. Children have to know that disobeying has consequences and they have to be paid in full.
    Later on in life, good ways to make them understand restitution are having to pay for something they broke with their pocket money, or having to do chores to make up for something, etc…

    I do have a problem with the teaching that children need to be spanked to pay for their sin.

    It’s a fine line.

  63. Ryan – When a child willfully hits another child, is that a sin? If so, and the consequence was to go and apologize, would that diminish the gospel?

    If you are teaching that apologizing(or spanking or whatever) is paying for that sin then yes, it is diminishing the Gospel. If you teach that the punishment is restoring them to their place in the covenant family, then yes again.

    Madame – I was actually agreeing with TG. I’ll blame my lack of clarity on the lateness of the hour. :)

  64. “Wow, you’ve entirely mischaracterized my familes theology. Do really believe there should be no consequences for sin in this life?”

    I don’t know your family’s theology.

    It’s something worth pondering.

    How are our actions and what we communicate to our children reflecting what we believe? Are our actions in discipline consistent with our theology? Are we pointing to a Gospel that is completely dependent upon Christ and what He has done for us?

  65. TulipGirl,
    Those are very good questions for us to ask ourselves as parents.

  66. [...] to that, in another discussion, I posed these questions: How are our actions and what we communicate to our children reflecting [...]

  67. Ryan,
    Please know that I’m not trying to attack your family personally. It’s what is being taught as “Biblical” that is under fire here, and that’s a valid thing to put under fire. No one’s teaching is above being examined.

    Your sil posted that she interprets Scripture to say of spanking,
    It says that it [the rod] will be life and saving grace to them (Prov 23:13-14)! (This comes from her post on Spanking being God’s Way.

    Spanking may change behaviour (and usually can). Usually you’ll be hard-pressed to find someone claiming that spanking doesn’t get most kids to do what you want them to do (eventually, anyways). That’s not at issue.

    What is at issue is whether or not the rod brings righteousness. Does the rod bring righteousness or Christ brings righteousness. Who gives life? The rod? Or Christ? Who gives saving grace? The rod? Or Christ? Your sister just said that the rod is God’s means of bringing life (I’m assuming she was referring to spiritual life, based on the context of her words?) and that it brings saving grace to them.

    I have some valid questions to ask, because she moved from a point of saying that spanking can help change behaviour (which it certainly can–whether it’s the best way or simply an optional way is another discussion) to now bringing in some serious theological concepts that affect how the gospel and work of Christ is viewed.

    If the rod gives life and saving grace, then why didn’t God just keep the OT law and use the rod on us? Why did the rod fail to work for God? Why did He have to resort to Christ?

    There is (what I consider to be) an underlying warped theology under a lot of spanking instruction. It’s often as if we say that the Cross was enough, but when we come to our kids, it’s not enough. The punishment the Son took wasn’t enough. We have to keep punishing sin—-we must pay the price for our crime in order to recieve forgiveness.

    In contrast to that, there are some parents who believe that spanking can sometimes be a helpful tool for helping a child manage their behaviour. They don’t bring theology into it, they just spank sometimes. This is a MUCH different thing than saying that by spanking, we will give our kids life and saving grace by spanking them.

    The verse she uses to back up her statement (that the rod brings life and saving grace) is from Proverbs 23,

    “Do not hold back discipline from a child,
    Although you beat him with the rod,
    he will not die.
    You shall beat him with the rod,
    and save his soul from Sheol.”

    Does beating a kid with a rod save his soul from Hell? Truly?

    Or is this statement being like many of the other Proverbs: a wisdom statement, not meant to be taken literally, as if a beating will actually save a soul, because if beating WILL save a soul, then we have no need for Christ.

    Plus, interestingly, we know from the OT law that you indeed CAN kill someone by beating them with a rod. The OT law talks about what to do when a master beats a slave with the rod and kills him. That in and of itself proves that this proverb is not to be taken as if it’s a sentance in a Toyota instruction manual, but rather as a wise saying.

    When we fail to allow our children to experience unpleasant circumstances, whether it’s painful correction or simply painful natural consequences, we do NOT help them.

    Also, this verse is often used to talk about saving our children unto heaven, unto God, and *from* Hell. I don’t know how many times I’ve heard it used that it will save our kids from Hell, actually.

    But consider that Sheol simply means “grave” in the OT. The Bible says that all dead went to Sheol. It’s not talking about a burning lake of fire. If we want to take the proverb literally, again, it’s talking about keeping your kid ALIVE instead of having him die. It’s NOT talking about whether he goes to heaven or hell. It’s *not* talking about his spiritual state. It’s talking about keeping him alive and well on the planet earth and not dying before his time due to foolish choices or mistakes (because he never experienced painful consequences), whether that death is because of a stupid un-wise accident or because he was stoned for an evil act.

    We can’t teach that the rod is a means of grace. If the rod brings spiritual life, then there was no need for Christ. If the rod is a means of grace, then the Cross was a big mistake.

  68. Posted by Jen on May 24, 2008 at 1:19 pm

    Thanks molly, that explanation cleared things up for me a lot. I haven’t seen that particular issue stated better anywhere.

  69. Molly~
    Wow. Well stated. ;-)

  70. Molly,
    It’s been a while since I had time to stop by your blog. As always, I leave with something to think about. Tonight it is how grateful I am for a desert time God gave me (some lonely hard years between 1998 and 2003). During that time I learned to go to my Heavenly Father and to really study His Word. The result is the discipline conclusions page you linked to. One of these days I’ll add to it–maybe if I ever have a real vacation :-)
    I noticed on several of the pages linked to on the “momandus” site talked about what the Bible means when it says “rod” and their definitions weren’t consistent with Hebrew translations at all! They went to the Bible with their own ideas (probably influenced by parenting authors) and came away with an answer that just wasn’t there. Sad.
    We are still growing and learning–it’s a daily work in our family. I’m grateful for every single bit of it!

  71. Brian wrote, “If you are teaching that apologizing (or spanking or whatever) is paying for that sin then yes, it is diminishing the Gospel. If you teach that the punishment is restoring them to their place in the covenant family, then yes again.”

    @Brian: I agree wholeheartedly to your first point. However regarding your second point, I disagree—what then is the purpose of the apologizing sibling if it is not (at least in part) restorative in nature?

    (CF Luke 17:3b, “If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.”)

    @Molly: Dude, I’m totally sorry, it’s late and have to get to bed; I’ll respond tomorrow. I’m looking forward to it. …probably won’t get to it ’till evening.

  72. (Uggh, winking emoticon was unintentional)

  73. What is interesting to me is how this conversation causes so much confusion and debate. Mol, why do you think that is? I think that some of the answers to that question can help us find reconciliation.

  74. Posted by traveller on May 25, 2008 at 8:32 am

    As a father of four sons ranging in age from 15 to 26 I have learned much over the past about how to relate to my children…..some of the ways I have related have been unhealthy and some healthy. To summarize, each child is different and needs a somewhat different approach so when we generalize we are always wrong in some ways. At the risk of being inconsistent with the previous sentence I am going to generalize. Offering grace to my children has yielded far more transformation in their lives than attempting to impose law. Of course, it helps to offer the example of a transformed life as a parent, which includes asking forgiveness from my children when I fail in my relationship with them. All of this is truly the result of the active work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of children and parents……and prayer. There are no magic formulas even the magic formula of imposing the law on children.

    With all of my mistakes over the years God has done his work in my children. I see the growing presence of Jesus in their lives and this is for me the most wonderful time of relationship with all four of my sons. I love them deeply and appreciate how my wife has taught/shown me grace as we have learned to show that in our relationship with our sons.

    My prayer for each parent is to learn from the love, mercy, grace and sacrifice of Father shown to us as we reflect this to our children.

  75. Quote: “As a father of four sons ranging in age from 15 to 26 . . . . All of this is truly the result of the active work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of children and parents……and prayer. . . .
    With all of my mistakes over the years God has done his work in my children. I see the growing presence of Jesus in their lives and this is for me the most wonderful time of relationship with all four of my sons. I love them deeply and appreciate how my wife has taught/shown me grace as we have learned to show that in our relationship with our sons.”

    As the mom of four sons (who are younger than yours!) this gives me such encouragement today. Thank you!

  76. Bryan,
    It is obviously a seriously emotional issue. I would like to sound all haughty about how *some* people get emotional whereas I don’t, but everyone who knows me online would spit their coffee onto their computer screens. When we think something *is* God’s Way, period, finite, end of story, and any other view is Warring Against God’s Way, it can be really hard to *hear* anything. Anything at all. I remember “cyber-wailing” at one well-known blogger (when I was deep in the trenches of patriarchy) for her negative review of Created to be His Helpmate. I could hear *nothing* she said. All I knew, all the way down in the fiber of my toenails, was that she was warring against God’s Way and that someone needed to get her to stop. I seriously felt deeply hurt by what she was doing (even though, again, I could not *hear* what she was saying, despite the fact that I read it). I was, in other words, responding out of the emotional part of my brain, not the frontal part where critical thinking occurs. I was over in the survival fight-or-flight part. :)

    Btw, I’m not saying that anyone who disagrees with me, or disagrees loudly, is not engaging in thinking. I know that’s not true at all. Thinking people come to all sorts of conclusions about all sorts of issues, of course!

    However, these emotional issues involving such precious matters—-how we raise our kids, how we relate in a marriage, etc—-are already things that hit us in our deepest core, and we DESPERATELY want to do a good job with those that we love. So we’re already going to be tempted to react out of our emotional core right from the get-go. Sheesh, we’re dealing with our dearest treasures! And then add into that thoughts or (plentiful #$%) teachings about how God Wants It Done This Way (hence all other thoughts about it are from the enemy, and/or will royally screw up your home, etc), and you’ve got the potential for a real disaster. You are now unable to truly *hear* ANYTHING but what agrees with your conclusions. And you think you’re warring for God, but in reality, you’re just stuck in the back of your head.

    The answer is
    1. Deep Breaths
    2. Prayerful Slow Reading (what the other side says)
    3. A Supernatural Miracle (that will allow us to do the above)

    :lol: I think that’s Love. How to disagree, love-style. (I suck at it most of the time, cough cough, but I’m striving to grow!). If we don’t agree when all is said and done, big whoopteedoo. But it’s nice to disagree after fully *hearing* the other side. I know that I don’t mind being loudly disagreed with, as long as you actually know what the heck I was saying as opposed to reading into it or extrapolating from it all sorts of things that I was NOT saying. I think it’s fair to guess that both sides in this discussion don’t feel heard. I bet the ladies at momandus might feel that I did that to them in this post. Did I or did I not? I don’t think so, but maybe I did. In any case, I want to strive to hear. Supernaturally enabled, of course, by the World’s Greatest Listener Himself. :)

  77. Trav,
    You rock.
    :)

  78. molly,

    i so appreciate what you said in your last comment to Brian. I’ve been thinking about this a lot….why women who are deep in patriarchy or who are busy growing kids God’s way can testify with sincerity that their methods work….and women on the other side are testifying that their methods work, yet the methods are incompatible with each other.

    it seems to me that the successful patriarchal marriages and the GKGW/Pearl families, etc when they work, often (but not always) work because the people who are involved in them are committed to loving and submitting to each other’s needs…which is exactly why egalitarian marriages, attachment parenting, etc, have success as well. the key is that the people involved are willing to lay down their own lives for the welfare of others.

    i don’t want to be misunderstood about my point. i’m not saying i think it makes patriarchy or GKGW or other methods RIGHT. i do think that a lot of damage comes from wrong methods it’s just that i see that God’s methods of submission and self-sacrificing love WORK…in every paradigm.

    and this makes it so important that we approach each other with compassion and real understanding. as you said, we follow these practices because we desperately want the best for our families and we desperately want to please God. it is something i am not so good at remembering in my relations with others, but i am trying to learn.

    i think you do a really good job in this forum, molly. thanks.

  79. I honestly think it is the strategy of the devil. I think he absolutely wants to tear people apart – to steal, kill, and destroy, and one of the God-created units he most hates is marriage and families (and churches). Thus, these issues become some of the most heated ones. And it tries to tear us all apart. We forget that we are called to bear with one another, submit to one another, endeavor in every way to make peace with one another, not to argue with one another, etc., etc. We need to pray for one another more.

  80. Posted by joyfullygrowingingrace on May 25, 2008 at 2:26 pm

    Hi Molly,
    About both sides not feeling heard . . . I think you are doing an excellent job of graciously disagreeing with certain concepts and philosophies.

    I also think that you have been very clear in stating that if someone adheres to a certain philosophy because they feel it is what God has shown them for their family, and want to share, that’s fine. It’s when they take that “thing” (insert pet formula or issue or theology here) and turn it into the ONLY acceptable commanded way that GOD SAYS THINGS SHOULD BE DONE . . . BY EVERYONE . . . it’s at that point that a line has been crossed.

    I get it that IF the ladies at momandus had been sharing what has worked for them without saying categorically that they do thus and so because it’s GOD’S WAY, your comments would have been somewhat different, i.e. merely a dissenting opinion, and likely not disqualified in moderation. But they WERE NOT just saying, “This is what works well for us.” They were saying they do it this way because it’s GOD’S WAY. End of discussion on their end, unless you agree with them.

    So I get it, Molly. And my guess is that anyone who doesn’t, can’t, as someone at this blog stated so well in “Fundamentalists Need to be Loved”. =o)

    Looking forward to reading more of your rock-polishing . . .

  81. Tonia, my oft-repeated mantra is “God’s grace and a mother’s love cover a multitude of screw ups. . .” when it comes to parenting. Which, is a less elegant way of what you are saying. . . Love and laying down our lives and God bringing the increase. . . that is what our marriages and families need.

  82. Molly wrote, “what is at issue is whether or not the rod brings righteousness.”

    @Molly: Throughout this thread, I’ve tried to address that none in my immediate nor extended family (which includes all the momandus.com gals) believe that “the rod brings righteousness.”

    This charge has been levied against us in several places through this thread, to which I’ve tried my best to refute them. I’ve tried to show in various places how you’ve misinterpreted our position, and have accredited to us beliefs that we simply do not hold. (For examples, refer to my comment in this thread on May 22, at 10:26 PM.)

    I have also suggested that you are approaching this discussion regarding my family’s theology (namely Brietta and the momandus.com gals) by superimposing onto the discourse a theology that we do not hold or teach. This has made the conversation very difficult. According to your own words, you at one time “totally bought into” the “concept of spanking a child into righteousness”. And I believe this has caused you to project onto our statements a meaning that is not accurate. (We do not and have never believed in the “concept of spanking a child into righteousness.”)

    (This was the motivation for a previous comment, that if you had the opportunity to meet and communicate verbally with my family, you might walk away with a different opinion of their beliefs.)

    Molly wrote, “Your sil posted that she interprets Scripture to say of spanking,
    It says that it [the rod] will be life and saving grace to them!”

    @Molly: This is a legitimate question for Brietta. (In honesty, when I first read your comment, I thought you were again misquoting her.) But she indeed did say this. I called her this afternoon, and she, while not remembering writing such a thing, said she certainly did mean it. She was simply suggesting that it can impart grace much like a word of edification can impart grace to the hearer.

    Honestly, and this is tied with my statements above, I sincerely wish you had simply asked, “do you really mean ’saving grace’?” My hunch is it could have prevented a lot of misunderstanding.

    The statement has been removed.

  83. Ryan,
    Thank you. I really appreciate that. I sincerely wish I would have asked that question. (Actually, I sort of thought that’s what I’ve been asking all along, but I understand it’s easy to lose me, as you yourself said).

    I also sincerely wish I could have had this conversation on the blog with Brietta herself. You say that I have made the conversation very difficult. That’s probably true—I’m very very human. :) But know that there would be no conversation at all, if your sil and mil would have had their way.

    A blog policy that teaches authoritatively and shuts down comments that disagree (or allows them one post of disagreement, but no more)? I realize they aren’t blogging in order to have real discussion, and that is their right, but I don’t think it’s fair that they or you get upset , then, when someone wishes to critique their critique or have an indepth discussion about the nature of what they are claiming is Biblical.

    Btw, normally I don’t go reading other blogs at all (t.i.m.e: even though I love dabbling in the blogosphere, I just don’t have the time), but that particular post I just couldn’t stop thinking about.

    Perhaps I have completely misunderstood what your family is teaching about childrearing. It is entirely possible. If so, it is interesting that most of the commenters here seemed very bothered upon reading the linked-to posts from momandus. So it wasn’t just me (and, yes, sometimes it IS just me, and rest assured that the commenters here seem to have no problem letting me know it’s all me, when appropriate). grump,grump,grump… (No, actually, I love it). :)

    But, if you can believe me (others here can vouch for it, who’ve known me from my early blog days in 2004-2005)), I once wrote blog posts about discipline that were almost identical. No, I don’t superimpose a picture of ogres when I think of your family. But I do recognize the cage I was in for a long long time when I see it (ahem, those are my honest thoughts—very opinionated ones, and likely to be WRONG as all get out, so there’s your disclaimer).

    Btw, in my mind, Tripp and Pearl are one and the same in the core fundamentals of their childrearing thoughts—actually, Michael Pearl said that once, on one of his tapes—it’s just that Pearl had a more back-woods nature-ish homey feel and Tripp speaks more to the language of the evangelical norm. *shrugs*

    http://momandus.com/2008/05/15/administering-the-rod/
    In the post I link to above this sentance, Darlene shared a link at the end of her spanking methodology, saying this is excellent childrearing material and to be sure to read ALL of it. In it, the author says things like,

    When the rod of correction is applied, it’s because a child has displayed either willful disobedience or wrong attitudes.

    Scripture teaches, “Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right” (Eph. 6:1). Roy Lessin, author of How to Be the Parents of Happy and Obedient Children, says that our children should obey “willingly, completely and immediately.” These are three excellent criteria to follow. If violated, our responsibility is loving correction.

    Unless a child obeys willingly, completely, and immediately, God’s answer to that is to spank the child? This is Biblical? Where? Please cite chapter and verse.

    Referring to Roy Lessin is a red flag and bigtime. Here is a (very sad, very disturbing) letter from a person close to Roy: http://nospank.net/fenimore.htm

    What if my child repeatedly disobeys during the course of a day and some redness develops on his bot­tom?”

    Keep in mind that “posterior protoplasmic stimula­tion” can cause some redness on the skin. This is nothing to get upset about! These marks are only temporary. It’s better for a child to have a few temporary marks outside than to retain improper attitudes inside that can leave permanent scars later in life. Remember: If you permit a child to nurture a habit which he will one day be forced (with greater difficulty) to break, you are the cruelest of par­ents.

    So he just counseled parents to trust in the power of spanking kids: Am I wrong, or did he just say something akin to, “If your child disobeys repeatedly, spank them through-out the day. Spank your child repeatedly when they disobey even if it doesn’t seem to work. Spank them for what you deem to be improper attitudes. Spanking is God’s Way for correcting behaviour and it will work eventually, and if you don’t do it the way I say, you will raise a terrible adult. You are a cruel parent if you won’t spank them repeatedly.”

    The author we are told to listen to also says,

    Although it’s not possible to establish a “kiloswats” measurement for spanking, two biblical criteria are help­ful. Loving correction should be painful: “For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant …” (Hebrews 12:11). There can be no effective correction if our children giggle, laugh, or play when they are receiv­ing the rod. Loving correction should also yield the peace­ful fruit of righteousness “to those who have been trained by it” (Hebrews 12:11). If we have properly administered loving correction, we will see the eventual evidence of righteous behavior and not merely tears:

    Valid question: so in order to correct a child, we *must* cause them to feel pain? Pain is the only and/or best corrective for undesired behaviour?

    Let’s go to the Bible. Is purposely-inflicted pain the only way that God corrects our behavour?

    The author says,
    The biblical definition of the rod is a small, flexible branch from a tree (a wooden stick).

    No, it isn’t. Strongs (if it’s still safe for me to quote STrong’s, heh heh) says of shebet (rod):
    1) rod, staff, branch, offshoot, club, sceptre, tribe

    a) rod, staff

    b) shaft (of spear, dart)

    c) club (of shepherd’s implement)

    d) truncheon, sceptre (mark of authority)

    e) clan, tribe

    The author is taking his preconcieved ideas and paradigm and forcing it into Scripture, claiming it authoritatively.

    The author also writes,
    To shape the will without breaking the spirit, there must be thoroughness in our correction. The rod is used to “sting” instead of giving the traditional “love pats” which everyone knows to be ineffective. “Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his cry­ing” (Proverbs 19:18 kjv).

    Our use of the rod must be effective correction. It must bring the child to a point of repentance and not merely “feeling sorry for getting caught.” We need to train our­selves to hear the repentant cry, not just a contrived cry or a cry of protest. We need to discern that our child’s cry is conveying, “I’m sorry. I won’t do it again.”

    “How long should I spank?”

    This varies with every child, depending on his or her sensitivity. Some children have a little more “padding,” and are strong willed, so they need a longer spanking. Others are docile and easily start the process of repen­tance upon a stern look from Daddy or Mommy. (Don’t use this as an excuse, though, for not completing the job!)

    THIS is the way we correct our children? When we have ample Biblical evidence for a MILLION different ways to correct behaviour, for God using a ton of different methods? And we should spank the child past the point of crying, until we judge that they are crying out of repentance, not out of pain. That’s a little scary. We can judge their heart?

    I’m thinking of my really strong willed fourth kid right now and just cringing at the thought of him being in a home where the above is practiced.

    For him, spanking was a BAD idea. It’s amazing how his behaviour has changed through kindness. I don’t think that works for every kid every time, but I’m so glad I listened to the whisper of the Spirit regarding my wacko Israel, instead of the childrearing books (like Tripp’s) that I’d read, or I’d have a messed up kid. As it is, he’s about to turn 5 and we get complements on the amazing behavoural turn-around that has taken place since he was 2 (when we basically stopped using spanking as a corrective measure for him, because despite the fact that he did things that made you flat-out WANT to spank him silly, evil genius “I will dominate all” kid that he was, it was obvious that spanking broke something deep inside of him, and not in a good way).

    This element should be self-explanatory. In correcting our child, our objective is never to leave him or her feeling guilty, rejected, or unwanted. Our intention is to deal immediately with the problem behavior and then restore fellowship. This is how God deals with us and we are to follow suit.

    That’s nice that he doesn’t want the child to leave still feeling guilty, but still, my response is, no. This isn’t how God deals with us. Because of the cross, fellowship is not broken because I fail to perform properly. My fellowship with God is not based on my performance. That’s the point of the Gospel, is it not?

    Fellowship is always there when I am willing to turn toward God. My fellowship with God is not based on my performance, on my own righteousness, but by the righteousness of Christ. The only way I break fellowship is when I turn from God of my own accord, NOT because I failed to perform properly. The point of the Gospel is that I NEVER will perform properly. Fellowship based on performance is what we learn from the Law. It has no place in a post-Cross relationship. NO PLACE.

    I do not have to be punished in order to restore fellowship, and neither do my children. If I must be punished to restore fellowship, then the Cross of Christ isn’t as powerful as the Scriptures say it is. If my kid must be punished in order to restore fellowship (with the parent and with God), then we are giving our kids a false picture of what the Cross did.

    (Please please note, this is not to say that our sin doesn’t have consequences, nor does it say that we don’t need to repent of our sin, but to say that the way it is being viewed above is not consistant with what the Bible says the Cross did for us).

    Not only are we to concentrate on obedience but on right attitudes as well. “Serve the Lord with gladness!…” declares the Bible (Ps. 100:2). It also observes that “…man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart” (1 Sam. 16:7). Sulking, whining, fussing, arching one’s back defiantly, pouting, complaining, holding the breath until the child turns blue—these are all evidence of a wrong attitude, and warrant the rod of correction after clear instruction.

    Er, if you don’t have a happy face, you’ll get a spanking? God spanks us when we aren’t glad? Spanking is God’s Way for dealing with bad attitudes? Outward punishment fixes inward hearts?

    Gar.

    The point is, very very very little of what that guy is saying is actually in the Bible. He’s taking a few extracted Bible verses and using them to prop up an EXTRA-Biblical child-discipline framework. This is what is being advocated as an excellent article to read to help us be better parents, via momandus? I think it’s very fair to say that this should be challenged, not glossed over. Parents are reading this stuff and then implementing said “Godly” childrearing in their homes, thinking that they are now doing it “God’s way” when in fact, they are following the opinion of one man who is using a Scripture here and there to back up a model that is based far more on his opinion than it is the Scriptures.

    I won’t go on, because I think it’s fair to say we may be coming at all of this from very different paradigms and I’m thinking that words aren’t helping much. I wish you grace and peace in the knowledge of Christ, and I don’t say that with a little fake religous smile, but with real warmth and honesty. But I maintain a profound level of disagreement for the discipline teaching being promoted by the momandus blog.

  84. “I have also suggested that you are approaching this discussion regarding my family’s theology (namely Brietta and the momandus.com gals) by superimposing onto the discourse a theology that we do not hold or teach. This has made the conversation very difficult.”

    Ryan, since you mentioned me by name at another part of the discussion in regard to the issue of theology, I want to clarify again that I do not know your theology or your family’s theology, nor do I make assumptions about it.

    I have sought to not made this discussion personal. What I have brought to the table are the IDEAS that are being discussed.

    However, I’m GLAD that you are . . . offended? . . . by the theological implications of the ideas we are discussing. It is disturbing how much of the the broader evangelical culture in the US has made assumptions about what the Bible teaches based on what we have been taught and what has fit the US culturally. It’s very easy (I know we all do it) to see things that are cultural and assume they are Biblical.

    As I haven’t made assumptions about what you and your family believe, if you don’t like the theological implications of the rod and righteousness and punishment and the atonement. . . well. . . it brings up some weighty matters to consider.

    If you see a disconnect between theological ideas and actual practice. . . well. . . in my life that has brought me cause to rejoice! In my life it is knowing God (through theology and experience) which the Lord has used to bring change in my life. What does it look like for me to daily acknowledge my dependence upon the Gospel of Jesus Christ and to live daily in the Gospel of grace? What does it mean for me as a wife and mother, as I love my husband and children? How can I discipline and disciple my children, so that they too learn how to look to Jesus each day?

    Grace and peace,

  85. “It is disturbing how much of the the broader evangelical culture in the US has made assumptions about what the Bible teaches based on what we have been taught and what has fit the US culturally. It’s very easy (I know we all do it). . . . well. . . it brings up some weighty matters to consider. . . . If you see a disconnect between theological ideas and actual practice. . . well. . . in my life that has brought me cause to rejoice! “

    After reading what I wrote, I realized that what I posted *could* be heard in a way that it was not intended. . . I want it to be heard in the tone I meant–which is not in the least condescending nor with the assumption that I’ve “arrived.” Nope! Just saying. . . if you see a theological disconnect. . . explore it. . . ‘Cause I know I’m thankful when I do. . .*grin*

  86. Oops, correction: I wrote, regarding Brietta’s use of “saving grace” that “…she certainly did mean it” but I mistyped. It should have said, “she certainly did NOT mean it.” [But I think you all probably gathered that from the context.]

    …i also didn’t intend another emoticon.

    Those silly parenthesis!

    …okay, now I’m off to read your reply Mol.

  87. Hey Mol,

    Thanks for your response.

    First, I’m sorry if I communicated that I [or we] think it’s unfair when you critique any of our comments. [Here, there, or anywhere.] That was never my intention.

    And I assure you that my mil or sil [Wait---wow. I can't believe I just used those acronyms. ...you've really had a bad influence on me!] Anyway, I assure you that they would never suggest you have no right to dissent or engage them.

    And yes, in some circumstances, they’ve determined their comment systems is inappropriate for dissent, but there’s also the Contact Form on their website. That being said, it’d be tough, almost super-human, to be able to respond to the sheer quantity of content you’re able to generate! That alone might put you on the bottom of their to-do list—but that’s another issue altogether. :)

    Smiley face, intended.

    As for me, I think I’ve communicated all I care to at this point. I think you understand [even if you disagree] on my two primary points:

    1. I’ve proposed that the momandus gals are offering a position you’ve neither seen nor heard, and though their rhetoric may sound frightenly familiar, the message is one of grace and life, and not of legalism and bondage.

    2. The gals at momandus do not believe nor have never believed that “the rod brings righteousness.”

    So anyway, I’m out like Shout. …like a breeze through the trees.

    One last thing though, I am so very sorry for the abuse you and others here have experienced. I am truly and genuinely grieved. [Hearing you say, "the cage I was in for a long long time," made my heart so very heavy.] And as your brother in the Lord, for what it’s worth, I’ll just say I look forward to a day when “this present distress” is beyond us all.

    In Him,
    Ryan

  88. Thanks, Ryan.
    Me too.
    :)

  89. Posted by mom of many on May 26, 2008 at 9:30 am

    I’m really glad you brought this up and that some of your commenters talked about the sexual aspect of spanking. I’m another person who got messed up from my childhood spankings. I was spanked regularly and often for infractions, over the lap, until my cry changed from pain to a deep sob. Around the age of 6, I began associating spanking with orgasm.

    I don’t really know why though I’ve read some studies about how the nerves in that area are all connected. I think thats why the bible never says to spank kids on the rear end, even though the books all say that’s God’s designed place for spanking. I have condemned myself over my association with spanking-pleasure for my whole life and kept it a dark dark secret.

    It ahs only been in the last few years that I have realized that what happened to me happens to others and that its not my fault. It was interesting to learn that it often happens around age 5-6. It was interesting to learn that the concept of spankign we have today actually comes from the victorianish age straight from their perverted advice on how to spank your wife. It was supposed to have sexual undertones.

    I have thought I was hell bound for my thoughts. I can control my actions but I cannot control my sexual impulse. I still thought just the impulse alone was enough to condemn me. But I have learned which has brought freedom. There’s not something sick or disgusting about me. I got broken. The wiring in my brain got messed up through frequent spankings. It has happened to others. It is something that I hate but that I have to live with. Scars on the inside. I turned out a really good kid and my mom says its because she practiced biblical chastisement. She wonders why I choose to use other parenting methods with my own kids. I can never tell her what she did to me.

    I hope this isnt too much for your blog. If you don’t want this, I understand.

  90. Hey, it’s not too much. I’m really sorry for what you have experienced. I have read a few things similar to that—-I can’t remember the name, but it was a book or pamphlet on how to give an erotic spanking, and it was word for word what today’s parenting manuals say is a “godly” spanking. It wasn’t from the Victorian age, but from the 20’s or 30’s I think, though I can’t remember. It really freaked me out! But that’s interesting that yours was from the Victorian age, because the Victorian age was particularly brutal on kids. It wouldn’t be all that surprising, then, if a lot of them grew up to associate pain with pleasure, and acted out on it? I dunno… It would be an interesting thing to research.

    It makes you wonder how many people go through the same thing. It’s such a shameful thing to talk about (currently, at least), that I suppose we’ll probably never know. Thanks for being brave.

  91. There’s nothing like a good “how to parent the Right Way” post to spark a huge debate! (tongue very much in cheek) Wow – this completely sucked me in, and it’s Memorial Day. I should be outside enjoying the day.

    A few thoughts on the authors of the original post as well as the topic at hand:

    1. I know, in a very friend of a friend way, the Sinclair family. I think that many of the comments listed here (earlier in the thread) are unfortunate in their outright attacks on that family. It is too easy to type things that we could never say face to face, especially outside of the context of relationship. The comments here have served as a serious reminder to me to be cautious in the way that I communicate with “strangers” online.

    2. Knowing the Sinclair family personally would, I believe, change the impact of their words shared on the subject of discipline. Descriptions such as “heart wrenching and sad” or “scary” and “spanking their children into the Kingdom of God” are way off base in the case of the Sinclair family.

    3. That being said, I definitely can see how the “keepable standard” issue could have been taken to an extreme by those of you who do not know the author personally. We all, as Christian parents, long to follow God’s ways in our relationships with our children, training them, teaching them, loving them. For many of us, “Christian Parenting” equals the “immediate obedience or a spanking” philosophy. (whether we agree with that or not)

    4. I have definitely known Christian families whose children were rebellious in their hearts, and who spanked all day long, and who believed that was the “only way.” My heart grieves for those families. I believe that they have incredible heartache ahead of them because of the lack of relationship they have with their children. These parents appear to be more focused on the outward results than they are on anything else. Though the Sinclairs are not at all like this, and parent out of love and deep relationship with their children, I, too, become concerned when blanket statements are made about spanking. Just as many of you have reacted to what the Sinclairs are proposing, thinking that it is too harsh, many others will read it and think it is “the only way.” Those people reading the “keepable standard” issue (esp. without the comments) wouldn’t know that mercy should be extended to little ones, that flexibility is key, that love and kindness and gentleness are the basis for the parenting decisions in that family. Outside of the context of relationship, which provides a broader framework for the advice given, examples such as the story of the little boy who was overtired can be misunderstood.

    5. I have been exploring gentler parenting methods, having been seriously turned off by the Pearls and the Ezzos. Besides feeling that I’d have to ignore my instincts in order to implement much of their advice, I strongly reacted to the authors suggesting that they had found “God’s Way” of parenting. Let us all be careful that we not suggest to have found it – outside of God’s Word. That includes the “I can interpret scripture better than you” kind of debate. A few years ago I would have viewed non-spankers with a judgemental attitude. Now I am open to the idea, less focused on immediate results, and more focused on what one blogger calls “Long – Term Parenting.” However, should I label spanking families “sad,” or “theologically off base”? I think not. I hope that, instead, I will be able to offer friendship and understanding, because – remember – it’s only out of that context of friendship that I will ever have a chance to speak into that person’s life – and they into mine.

  92. Uh – apparently I don’t know my own blog address. :)
    And I’m not really sure that the numbers were necessary there. Oh well.

  93. CArole,
    Thanks for your thoughts.

    For what it’s worth, I give a few swats now and then (my 3 year old all-boy boy), so I’m not labeling spanking families as theologically off-base just because they use spanking sometimes as a tool for helping to correct undesired behavior.

    Here are a few of my issues (I’ll use numbers, since you did it so well–lol):

    1. I have theological problems with the concept that spanking can change hearts, or bring about righteousness, or make our kids obey God, or cause them to become followers of Christ.

    2. I also have theological problems with the idea that all sin must be punished (post-Cross) in order for forgiveness and restored fellowship to occur.

    3. I have theological problems with teaching parents that we must set up an unkeepable standard for our children (and punish their offenses, knowing all along that they couldn’t keep the standard we set in the first place).

    (Whether the Sinclairs believe those things theologically, it sounds like they don’t..but some of their teachings and teachings that they link to sure seem like they DO).

    I’m glad to know that the Sinclairs are such a nice family. :) I believe you. I wish I could have had this conversation on their blog. It would have been a much more appropriate place for it, and it would have been a much friendlier audience (for them). I can’t emphasize enough that I did not blog about this in order to run down the Sinclairs or to run down their family. The authoritative “Biblical” teaching is what I’m concerned about. I’m glad you came over here to defend the family itself. Thanks!

    And now, I am heading outside to the sunny weather!!!!

  94. [...] week Molly at “Adventures in Mercy “ posted on giving children an unkeepable standard to which I immediately responded.  I though [...]

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