1. Should my children’s sin be punished (by me or other adult authorities)?
2. What did the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ accomplish for adults and/or children with regards to sin and righteousness?
3. Is forgiveness available for adults and/or children who have sinned, or must punishment for sins first be met (to adults and/or children) in order for forgiveness and fellowship to be offered?
4. Are there different standards for adults then there are for children, with regards to appropriating the sacrifice of Christ for our imperfections?
5. Does punishing unrighteousness cause righteousness?
6. Does obedience to a set of rules or standards mean I or my child is righteous?
7. Is there a parenting philosophy I can follow that will guarantee me good godly adult children?
When/if possible, please cite chapter and verse with your responses.
Posted by Katherine Gunn on May 28, 2008 at 12:51 am
Hmm… you are really wanting to empty this can of worms. I’ll give it a shot.
1. Hmm…
“Surely He has borne our griefs (sicknesses, weaknesses, and distresses) and carried our sorrows and pains [of punishment], yet we [ignorantly] considered Him stricken, smitten, and afflicted by God [as if with leprosy].” Isaiah 53:4 (Amplified)
“There is no fear in love [dread does not exist], but full-grown (complete, perfect) love turns fear out of doors and expels every trace of terror! For fear brings with it the thought of punishment, and [so] he who is afraid has not reached the full maturity of love [is not yet grown into love's complete perfection].” 1 John 4:18 (Amplified)
2. Hmm… rescued us from punishment?
“But [that appointed time came] when Christ (the Messiah) appeared as a High Priest of the better things that have come and are to come. [Then] through the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with [human] hands, that is, not a part of this material creation,
He went once for all into the [Holy of] Holies [of heaven], not by virtue of the blood of goats and calves [by which to make reconciliation between God and man], but His own blood, having found and secured a complete redemption (an everlasting release for us).
For if [the mere] sprinkling of unholy and defiled persons with blood of goats and bulls and with the ashes of a burnt heifer is sufficient for the purification of the body,
How much more surely shall the blood of Christ, Who by virtue of [His] eternal Spirit [His own preexistent divine personality] has offered Himself as an unblemished sacrifice to God, purify our consciences from dead works and lifeless observances to serve the [ever] living God?
[Christ, the Messiah] is therefore the Negotiator and Mediator of an [entirely] new agreement (testament, covenant), so that those who are called and offered it may receive the fulfillment of the promised everlasting inheritance–since a death has taken place which rescues and delivers and redeems them from the transgressions committed under the [old] first agreement.” Hebrews 9:11-15 (Amplified)
3. Hmm… I think the whole point of the Cross and Blood of Jesus was to take the punishment for us… (see Isaiah 53:4, Hebrews 9…)
“If we [freely] admit that we have sinned and confess our sins, He is faithful and just (true to His own nature and promises) and will forgive our sins [dismiss our lawlessness] and [continuously] cleanse us from all unrighteousness [everything not in conformity to His will in purpose, thought, and action].” 1 John 1:9 (Amplified)
4. None that I have ever found…
5. & 6. Absolutely not!
“I bear them witness that they have a [certain] zeal and enthusiasm for God, but it is not enlightened and according to [correct and vital] knowledge.
For being ignorant of the righteousness that God ascribes [which makes one acceptable to Him in word, thought, and deed] and seeking to establish a righteousness (a means of salvation) of their own, they did not obey or submit themselves to God’s righteousness.
For Christ is the end of the Law [the limit at which it ceases to be, for the Law leads up to Him Who is the fulfillment of its types, and in Him the purpose which it was designed to accomplish is fulfilled. That is, the purpose of the Law is fulfilled in Him] as the means of righteousness (right relationship to God) for everyone who trusts in and adheres to and relies on Him.” Romans 10:2-4 (Amplified)
“If you seek to be justified and declared righteous and to be given a right standing with God through the Law, you are brought to nothing and so separated (severed) from Christ. You have fallen away from grace (from God’s gracious favor and unmerited blessing).” Galatians 5:4 (Amplified)
7. Hmm… just some thoughts….
“Train up a child in the way he should go [and in keeping with his individual gift or bent], and when he is old he will not depart from it.” Proverbs 22:6 (Amplified)
“Lean on, trust in, and be confident in the Lord with all your heart and mind and do not rely on your own insight or understanding.” Proverbs 3:5 (Amplified)
“Fathers, do not irritate and provoke your children to anger [do not exasperate them to resentment], but rear them [tenderly] in the training and discipline and the counsel and admonition of the Lord.” Ephesians 6:4 (Amplified)
“Fathers, do not provoke or irritate or fret your children [do not be hard on them or harass them], lest they become discouraged and sullen and morose and feel inferior and frustrated. [Do not break their spirit.]” Colossians 3:21 (Amplified)
But in the end, there are no guarantees because every person is free to choose their own way – even our children.
Posted by srericka on May 28, 2008 at 4:48 am
Molly,
I lie this series a lot. Just wanted to point out something you haven’t (yet) gotten to. Something that worries me about fundamentalist justifications of the super-strict punishment of children with a structure of “authority” (God-> Man-> Woman-> Child) is that the logic could easily lead to the punishment / beating of wives. If it is right for a parent to beat a non-complying child, then isn’t it equally right for a husband to beat a non-complying wife? (And someone show me where God “beats” a man with some sort of rod / object.)
Posted by mary on May 28, 2008 at 5:02 am
Through out the on going parenting debate people keep saying that they are not looking for outward appearance, but a change of heart.THis to me is an interesting comment.It sounds very righteous on the surface-yea of course we want our childrens hearts to be right, but how do we really know. There are very obedient children who are ticking time bombs and very unruly children who’s hearts are are on the right track. But, the bottom line is no matter what is said we judge children on their outward actions. Christain parents are just as guilty of looking at their well behaved broods and calling it the fruit of their labor.THen, whoops, trouble comes. Sorry to ramble but I have been at this a few decades and have learned that what may seem to be a child with a ‘right’ heart is not.So, in light of the fact that only God knows their hearts punishment for every offense–especially with severe measures–seems so very wrong.
Another thought is what about the ‘great’ kids that grow up in liberal non-christian homes and readily accept the grace of Jesus
Christ? They have never felt the rod and yet they are healthy spiritually,mentally,emotionally.
Posted by Grafted Branch@Restoring the Years on May 28, 2008 at 5:52 am
Raise you children any way you want! You’re the one that lives with them now and will answer for your method later.
As for me and our house, we will serve the Lord.
Posted by ohapizgud on May 28, 2008 at 6:09 am
Amen!!!! GraftedBranch you hit the nail on the head! I could not agree more.
Posted by jewlsntexas on May 28, 2008 at 6:42 am
This is really an interesting series of posts – and I have been enjoying them. I loved Mary’s comment – it echoed my thoughts. It is the “Eddie Haskel” mentality – remember Leave it to Beaver? He was always so squeaky clean and well behaved in front of the parents. Of course on the show the parents seemed to see through it – but this is not the norm. Most people in our culture are deceived by appearances.
Surface.
We had a young man come to meet us because he wanted to take our 17 year old out on her first date. Mind you – we followed all the parenting advice for Christian parents and had told them they would never be allowed to “date” from the time they were young. It was strange that this two-fold kind of thing happened. The young man was as clean cut as could be, respectable and appropriate – using ma’am and sir in all the right places like a good “southern” boy. What we realized was that he is the kind of boy that scares us the most. We prefer a what you see is what you get kind of kid.
The second thing we realized in this situation was that we as parents could have all the standards in the world as far as dating and courtship were concerned, but enforcing that externally was us and not her. She had to choose this for herself.
Long story short – she went out on the date with this guy and another couple – but she was not interested in him further. She has a very high standard for herself – and that means it will continue even once she no longer lives with us. (which I hope isn’t anytime soon!)
Okay – I know – get your own blog!
Posted by jewlsntexas on May 28, 2008 at 6:44 am
I just reread my comment and realize it didn’t have much to do with your actual post about punishment – ha ha – I am sorry about that. My thoughts took a rabbit trail!
Posted by Nathan Bubna on May 28, 2008 at 7:11 am
Molly, i agree with you on so much, but i’m uncomfortable with this. It feels like you are implicitly conflating punishment with discipline. The distinction between the two is, for me, one of the most crucial things to understand in parenting.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=punish
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=discipline
Posted by molleth on May 28, 2008 at 9:22 am
Nathan—I couldn’t agree more.
Actually, I had the definitions (the Wiki ones) in the post and ended up taking them out. You read my mind! 
But let me explain why I took them out:
Often times there is a very fine line between punishment and discipline in these groups, the thought being that *by* punishing, we make our kids grow in righteousness.
Another word for that is “punitive parenting.” Consider what is discussed when the topic of discipline comes up in these circles. NOT how to reform behavior, but how to PUNISH behavior (in order to reform). Punitive is described as: “serving for, concerned with, or inflicting punishment: punitive laws; punitive action.”
Most books on discipline written by these types of authors discuss when to spank, how to spank, why to spank, and, if they’re creative, many other ways to cause pain that our children will stop doing what we consider to be wrong. To them, discipline is the art of punishing that reformed behavior might occur.
Is the goal to nip sin in the bud (or, in the butt, whatever the case may be) by quickly punishing OR disciplining (through punishment) it? If we go to Scripture to see how well that method worked for God in regards to *our* sin, we learn that… Oh, wait. It didn’t work. Hmmm. (The book of Judges is such an excellent example. Painful punishment and/or discipline-through-punishing can be useful to bring about change, but only in short-term ways. Once the memory of the pain is gone, the “reform” is over).
I thought I would use the word punishment, because of the way “discipline” is thought of: meaning, it’s usually referenced by these teachers only in regards to physical-chastisement concepts. Discipline is considered something you do by utilizing punishment. The word discipline can go a lot farther than that. But we’ve kind of got it stuck in punishment mode. Because of that, when our kid does something wrong, we’re often stuck in a mindset that says, “the child *must* be punished/disciplined in order to stop this behavior.” The two words are practically synonymous, in that we think that punishment *will* bring about growth.
When in actuality, if the goal is truly to bring about growth, there are a hundred different ways to do that, very few of which involve purposefully inflicted pain. Due to the mindset many of us have been trained to have, we can’t see that because we are zeroed in only on the methods that involve punishment.
(Again, I truly believe there is an appropriate place for utilizing pain. What I am referring to is a paradigm that sees pain as the solution for every failure to perform properly).
Good grief, boy, I can ramble… I can always tell I’m more of a speaker than I am a writer. I repeat myself endlessly when writing and it’s annoys even ME… HA!
Posted by molleth on May 28, 2008 at 11:00 am
Btw, I think this punishment/discipline thing brings up such a huge part of the paradigm shift. When I began to question the way I’d been taught Christian parents were supposed to discipline and train (ie, spanking for just about all offenses), at first I thought I should take out spanking and insert some other equally “punishment-based” method.
But that’s really only changing a very minor thing. The REAL thing that must change is the paradigm itself. Instead of having a paradigm that says, “failure to perform properly can and should be changed by inflicting pain or punishment, I want to raise good kids and in order to do so, I must punish sin” I began to switch to a paradigm that said, “how can I raise healthy whole adults who do not live or think or judge themselves or others from a performance-based standard, and yet who see the value in abiding by the Law of Love (love God, love others).”
If that is my paradigm, then I am free to utilize a wide variety of means in order to reach my end goal. Utilizing pain or punishment may or may not fit into that. I think the Scriptures point out that a wise parent will allow the pain of negative consequences, that their child might grow. But painful moments are only a very small portion of the whole picture. The whole picture is that I want to raise kids who can think critically, who can be merciful, who can walk circumspectly, etc, and who love a God-who-comes-in-flesh, in so far as that is in my power.
God demanded right performance. We failed again and again. No matter how he chastised us, we failed. Chastisement will NEVER bring about righteousness. That’s one of the main themes of the Bible: that in ourselves, we will NEVER perform properly, no matter how lovely OR how painful our situation is.
So how do I lead my children to Christ? Christ is God’s answer to man’s failure. Man could not “perform,” (as it were, as demonstrated by the pre-law Garden of Eden, and by the Law, etc) so God came in flesh, humbled Himself, that He might give us His life—-a life that enables us to do what is otherwise impossible.
That’s the kind of parent I want to be—-like God. To stoop down, to lift up and help. To use my power to bend down and serve.
To demand right performance and to hold my kids to certain standards, YES, because I don’t love my kids if I let them be ruled by negative behaviors and drives. But it’s important to know that I will NOT to “help” them by trying to reform them through a law-based performance-driven paradigm. I will NOT help them if I try to “help” them in a way that depends on punishment in order to reform. Because the Bible says that all those things will fail.
Performance is not the name of the game—not God’s game. If it were about performance, Jesus would have screamed at the Romans, not the Jewish religous leaders. The Romans were full of sin. The Jews were really doing things right, performance-wise. Who did Jesus yell at? Who did He rebuke? The good performers, who had long since lost the heart of what God was after.
Posted by Atlantic on May 28, 2008 at 11:06 am
Molly, I wrote all of the following before I read your latest post, so it’s going to sound odd! Keep in mind that to me, “punishment”, strictly speaking, means any sort of consequence, including say, “reflect for five minutes about what you just did” or “apologise to your sister”, etc.
I’m not a parenting expert (no kids and counting), but I’d just like to try answering these according to the Catholic view, just to liven things up a bit….
In Catholic theology, sin has both eternal and temporal consequences. Christ’s atonement for us removed the eternal effects and eternal punishment of our sins, but the temporal effects and punishment remain (although the latter can also be remitted by, for example, indulgences.
1. Should my children’s sin be punished (by me or other adult authorities)?
I agree with Nathan that “punishment” can be something of a loaded term…but I’ll say yes, sometimes. Sometimes the mere consequences of sin will be punishment enough. And sometimes, you can even be indulgent.
2. What did the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ accomplish for adults and/or children with regards to sin and righteousness?
Forgiveness and remission of the eternal consequences of sin.
3. Is forgiveness available for adults and/or children who have sinned, or must punishment for sins first be met (to adults and/or children) in order for forgiveness and fellowship to be offered?
That depends on a lot, including the severity of the sin, the culpability of the sinner, whether or not you’re talking about eternal or temporal punishment and/or the forgiveness of God or of other humans.
4. Are there different standards for adults then there are for children, with regards to appropriating the sacrifice of Christ for our imperfections?
There are different standards for everybody, depending on one’s knowledge, whether one was coerced, etc. Small children are generally regarded as being incapable of personal sin.
5. Does punishing unrighteousness cause righteousness?
I’m not sure of your definition of righteousness – especially since the structure of that question implies righteousness is the opposite of unrighteousness, but now you’re discussing punishment of unrighteousness instead of punishment of sin, which is a sudden change of subject – so I can’t answer that one. If you mean by righteousness, “that which moves a person from the unsaved to the saved state”, absolutely not.
6. Does obedience to a set of rules or standards mean I or my child is righteous?
Ditto.
7. Is there a parenting philosophy I can follow that will guarantee me good godly adult children?
Absolutely not. Your children have free will, no matter how perfect their upbringing.
Posted by Nathan Bubna on May 28, 2008 at 1:38 pm
Ok, glad to hear you’re thinking about the distinction, Molly. Phew.
Reading your blog is sometimes quite the trip for me. The community and culture i live in (and my wife also grew up in) have me coming from the other direction most of the time. People around me are more likely to through out discipline because they think it’s all about punishing and pain-causing these kids who are just ignorant or disadvantaged or just need some medication. I often feel surrounded by this implicit belief that all pain and suffering are fully evil and unhelpful and that it is rude or even cruel to suggest that kids could be sinners in need of redemption as much as anyone. You know, the mindset of “the only true evils are scarcity, suffering, violence, intolerance and *we* can solve those through legislation, education and empowerment”. Of course, i don’t believe that’s true either in society or in parenting, and it is frustrating to me that most people with that mindset often refuse to make a distinction between discipline and punishment. My mother-in-law drops hints to my wife about how she never let her cry themselves to sleep. Our neighbors regularly try to get their 4 yr old to obey by tickling or threats thereof. Others who seem to think if i had explained to my 1.5 yr old why she can’t have more strawberries, that she would understand and stop throwing a fit. Others who can’t imagine not letting her have more strawberries. Drives me batty sometimes, being surrounded by a culture that thinks all suffering and sadness is intrinsically bad for kids (and adults for that matter).
But then i read one of your blog posts and it might as well be from a different planet, as you are actively crusading against an entirely other extreme. Sometimes it’s refreshing, but sometimes, i find myself sympathetic to your targets, wishing that around me there was at least a bit more appreciation for the good that suffering/pain can do in a fallen world.
Anyway, your soo right. There is so much more to discipline than punishment, and those around me who through out most of discipline because they associate it with spanking/pain-causing have the same misunderstanding as those around you that think that that is all that discipline means or should mean. We are as much, if not more, responsible for teaching our kid’s grace as for teaching them law. Yes, i do think we should teach them law also, for it still operates on those who have not yet died with Christ, and i also think it helps some people avoid the “cheap grace” heresy.
I think you are most right when you say that we would be fools to teach our kids that it’s all about performance and depending on punishment to bring reform most often leads to just that. Just to clarify my position though, i do not think punishing our kids is wrong or unhelpful, quite the opposite. I only insist that we must be slow to punish and never depend on it either first or entirely. Especially as the kid’s communicative abilities grow, there MUST be time given for reflection and repentance. Immediate punishment only causes psychological conditioning, never true reform! In fact, i’d go so far to say (and perhaps you already did) that punishment never causes reform. It may start a thought process that brings reform, it may draw attention to things that bring reform, but punishment itself can never cause reform. But that doesn’t mean it is useless in discipline and certainly doesn’t mean it is intrinsically wrong.
Posted by molleth on May 28, 2008 at 6:49 pm
Nathan,
AMEN.
You know, I have to say one of the reasons I think I was so open to the punitive parenting philosphy is because I was around the other extreme in my college days—the side you describe (where using the word “no” on your kid was a terrible sin, where you danced around them and practically begged them on your knees to obey you, where you had zero control at all, ever).
I hated watching that and being a part of it (working in childcares, etc). For what it’s worth, I *still* hate that. Both extremes are destructive in their own way. But now that I’ve been in the thick of the OTHER paradigm, and in particular, since it’s the one I’m comign out of and really processing through, it’s the one I obviously talk more about. Thanks for being gracious to me.
Atlantic,
I want to comment to you when I’ve had more time to read what you wrote! More later…
Posted by Angela on May 28, 2008 at 7:19 pm
My guess would be that this really depends on what your final goal is. If you are striving for a child that knows how to act properly, contribute to society, and overall live a moral life, then by all means use puinishment. After all, that’s what the law is there for. If they speed or don’t pay taxes or beat someone up, they will face punishment. They need to be taught consequences, and if you are content with them living a certain way simply to avoid being punished for NOT living that way, then the punitive method will work great…unless you have a kid that will just find ways to do what they want when they know they won’t get caught. But, overall, this will keep them in line enough to keep them from embarrassing you. Which is really what it’s all about.
The other goal is producing a truly godly child. A child who will learn to choose right even when they have nothing to gain from it, or nothing to fear from NOT choosing it. A child who grows in a deep and personal relationship with the Lord, and learns to embrace your faith because it becomes their own. Unfortunately, this is not something you can beat into anybody. It’s against the very nature of Christianity, a religion based on love, for it to be forced on anyone, least of all a child. Our pastor says, “Love that is forced is not love, it’s coercion at best and emotional rape at worst.” I’ll swat my kids to keep them out of immediate danger, but for the long-term results that I am desperately seeking for my children, it’s just not that simple.
Posted by Angela on May 28, 2008 at 7:23 pm
Aack. Yes, I worked in childcare, too, and had to gag over some of the ridiculous begging we had to do to get those children to keep from killing each other or themselves. But I did it, because my goal at that time wasn’t producing spiritual children, it was avoiding bloodshed. Suffice to say I have slightly higher hopes for my own children, but I don’t think going the other extreme and using humiliation and pain will exactly create a hunger for Christ.
Posted by molleth on May 28, 2008 at 8:20 pm
Angela,
Agreed. Btw, I really like your latest post regarding parenting. Good stuff.
Posted by molleth on May 28, 2008 at 9:56 pm
Atlantic,
It was good to read thoughts from a Catholic perspective. You brought up good points. And, yes, some of those quickly fired questions could have been better worded!
Posted by Merf on May 29, 2008 at 12:24 pm
I don’t think I’ve ever submitted a comment before, but I’ve been following your blog for many years and very much enjoy reading your posts and all the comments that follow.
I just wanted to comment on your comment above about the number of repetitions you make. That is really helpful for some of us, at least me. I seem to need reminding of some things over and over again. I really appreciate the current topic as we have a 10 month old boy along with three older boys (8 and up) and I had been reading No Greater Joy with thoughts of “being stricter” this time around. You have brought up a LOT of food for thought at a very opportune time and I’m changing how I deal with all of my boy’s behavior.
Posted by Carol (parenting freedom) on May 29, 2008 at 1:03 pm
Oh, wow, Molly, that comment by Merf makes me so glad you are willing to blog on these issues. Reading that book years ago made me, too, feel like “being stricter”. I am so thankful I was led to a more gentle and graceful way.
Posted by Michelle on June 8, 2008 at 4:12 am
“God demanded right performance. We failed again and again. No matter how he chastised us, we failed. Chastisement will NEVER bring about righteousness. That’s one of the main themes of the Bible: that in ourselves, we will NEVER perform properly, no matter how lovely OR how painful our situation is”
excuse me, Molly, but I am not agreeing with you. Hebrews 12:11 says, ” Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peacable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.”
Posted by Phil on June 8, 2008 at 9:54 am
Michelle, I believe that we do grow in righteousness as we know the Lord and that verse in Hebrews 12 shows a God who truly loves us, but I agree with Molly here. Do I become righteous by being chastened? Do I look to chastening to bring about my righteousness?
It doesn’t matter what it is (chastening, church programs, preaching sermons, homeschooling), once I start finding my righteousness in things that I do (or do not do) instead of Christ, I’m in trouble.
“But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
That, according as it is written, he that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.” 1 Corinthians 1:30-31
“And be found in Him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith.” Phil. 3:9
“Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.” Galatians 5:4-5
Posted by Michelle on June 8, 2008 at 2:40 pm
“Do I become righteous by being chastened? Do I look to chastening to bring about my righteousness?”
According to the scripture I quoted (from the New Covenant, by the way) yes, chastening yields the fruit of righteousness as we are trained by it. You have found some scriptures that appear to contradict this, however, they are not pertaining to the same subject and are taken out of context.
Posted by molleth on June 8, 2008 at 10:46 pm
My friend just ended their fast, as their matter has become resolved, so my blog fast is over, too, I guess.
Michelle, thank you for commenting.
You have found some scriptures that appear to contradict this, however, they are not pertaining to the same subject and are taken out of context.
This is just me, but I have noooooo problem with someone saying that sometimes God allows us to undergo suffering, and that He does so because it can bring about positive results. Those positive results come by way of our growth as we are led to more fully comprehend Him through our painful experience. See Hebrews 2:10. I think that you and I probably agree on that front?
I have a major problem with anyone saying that we can attain righteousness through any other means than Christ.
Do you and I agree on that front as well? If not, I would love to better understand your position.
Let me try to explain mine. The verses quoted above by Phil, and the many more like them in the Bible, all say that our righteousness is found in Christ. I am not sure why you say they are taken out of context. Can you explain?
For my part, I look at Hebrews, from which some derive (from chapter 12) that spanking is God’s means for causing our children to be righteous.
Hebrews 8:12 might suggest that *if* this is true, God is failing to punish us as often as He should. (His chastening should probably be increased, because His mercy would keep us from attaining a higher level of righteousness)…?
Hebrews 12 says that the God, who brings us into relationship with Him through Christ, puts us through a “school of Christ” that we might learn Him more fully. This involves every aspect of Psalm 23, the good and the difficult. The difficult is for our growth, just as much as the good. Absolutely.
I would also point out that 12:10 adds that while God parents us well, the human attempts to punish are hardly perfect and often more for the profit of the parent than they are the profit of the child. This passage provides no strong case for the punishment-centric. If anything, we have clear Biblical evidence that we humans can’t read hearts or minds, and that when we punish our kids, we often times get it wrong and it doesn’t benefit them, even though we love them.
The author of Hebrews spent most of the book explaining to the readers that righteousness does not come through our own efforts, through our systems, our formulas, our discipline strategies, or our attempts to control others. A good summation verse might be,
“For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did, by the which we draw nigh unto God.” Hebrews 7:19
I have a feeling we would both agree that it is an unwise parent that keeps their children from experiencing pain. I know that for me, sometimes there is no better tutor than experiencing the pain of my own mistake. But I would strongly say that it is a foolish parent who thinks that *by* spanking their child, they will cause their child to become righteous.
We are sanctified by Christ. We find our righteousness in Christ. And while we *can* modify our children’s behaviour (through positive or negative methods), we cannot cause their hearts to be righteous. Only Christ can do that.
The fruit of the *Spirit* (not the fruit of spanking, not the fruit of positive parenting, not the fruit of ANY plan or program we have) is love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, goodness, and self-control. That’s the kind of fruit that makes for a really good parent.
Posted by Michelle on June 9, 2008 at 3:40 am
I believe scripture distinguishes between 2 types of righteousness and you are using them interchangeably which is incorrect. There is the righteousness that is imparted to us by God because of the work Christ did on the cross and then there is the FRUIT of righteousness which can be “trained” into us according to Hebrews 12.
I have been looking over your blog for a couple days now and I would like to make some observations. It sounds to me as if you have been hurt by some movement, have left it, and now spend your time attacking it. As somebody who has already been around this mountain, I would like to tell you what I’ve learned. First of all, regardless of whether they are right or wrong, they are also part of the Body of Christ. Satan’s war tactics are very simple; divide and conquer. While we sit here and squabble over silly differences, evil takes over the world completely unchecked. We should band together and use the time we have to further the Kingdom of Our God and take back the land the enemy is stealing. Instead of being outraged that some (well-meaning, caring, loving parents) choose to use a rod to train their children we should be outraged that 1.5 million children are being killed every year in our country through abortion. Now that is an outrage!
I must tell you from an outsider’s point of view that sadly, your blog is not uplifting and I won’t be spending more of my time here.
I will leave you with Titus 3:9; But avoid foolish disputes…contentions and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless. Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.
Posted by molleth on June 9, 2008 at 9:25 am
Michelle,
Hebrews 12 shows us that God trains us in righteousness (not just by chastising us, but certainly that is one way He helps us mature).
Romans 1:17 says something similar, that we grow in righteousness “from faith to faith” (if we interpret Rom. 1:17 as meaning a growth in our own personal apprehension and comprehension of God). That righteousness is a spiritual thing (with practical results), not something we can behaviourally condition.
But you are adding to what Hebrews 12 says. Hebrews 12 does not say *we* train our children into righteousness, it says that *GOD* does. And our God changes us from the *inside.* Only He can do that.
We humans must parent from the outside with our limited fallible human knowledge, doing the best that we can (as Heb. 12 points out). Yes, we can change behaviors and other outward surfacing things. But we cannot change the heart of any other human.
By saying we can spank our children into righteousness, we turn righteousness into “good outward behaviour” (as defined by us). Good behaviour is looks nice, but it is not the epitome of the righteousness being spoken of in Hebrews 12.
You *can* behaviourally condition someone into not whining, into looking happy. But you cannot behaviourally condition someone into true peace, joy, gentleness, self-control… Those are things that the *Spirit* births, because they are supernaturally aquired. If we say that we can produce spiritual fruit by earthly means, there would be no need for Christ.
I’m not outraged that some parents choose to spank their children. I spank sometimes (not very often, but I reserve it as an optional parenting tool). I know it’s easy to assume that anyone who questions the typical arguments for christian parent’s spanking must be *anti* spanking, but I’m actually not. I’m just not very excited about most of the arguments used by Christian teachers. I think they need to be examined a lot more carefully than they have been.
The arguments are like a leaky row boat being marketed as a first class yacht. People need to point that out, even though it’s not a very popular thing to say. We need to talk about what’s being taught. It’s fair to examine these things carefully, fair to say that a human teaching should be taken back to the Scriptures and looked at carefully. Are these teachers above reproach? Is their philosophy infallible?
I realize that I have made you angry. I’m sorry for that. It’s certainly not been my intention.
Posted by dannimoss on June 9, 2008 at 1:33 pm
Fantastic questions! I’m getting ready to write about this on my blog, too. I’ve been asked to dig into the pot publically, so I guess it’s time. It’s another subject I hate to dive into because, as you’ve noted, people get angry when their paradigm is challenged.
But it needs to be done! How many Christian parents are out there like us, who just need the affirmation that what they are feeling the Holy Spirit direct them to do is RIGHT? When they read the Word and it looks like it surely says something different than they are being taught, they wonder. But all they’re hearing from the pulpit and from the “experts” is to force submission and to break their child’s will.
You are right on.
– Danni
dannimoss.wordpress.com
Posted by molleth on June 9, 2008 at 10:39 pm
Cool, Dani. I look forward to reading your thoughts!
Posted by TulipGirl on June 10, 2008 at 3:54 am
“The fruit of the *Spirit* (not the fruit of spanking, not the fruit of positive parenting, not the fruit of ANY plan or program we have) is love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, goodness, and self-control. That’s the kind of fruit that makes for a really good parent.”
Amen.
Posted by TulipGirl on June 10, 2008 at 3:59 am
I don’t dispute that the Lord uses us as parents as means (imperfect though we are–and even in our imperfection!) as He molds our children into who He created them to be. But, oh. . . I love this quote. . . it points me back to the Father who is working in their lives both through me and apart from me:
Quote from btdt, gone the distance mom, katiekind:
“And lastly, and I say this gently, as the parent of grown kids, knowing *insert parenting guru* is also the parent of grown kids: we have wonderful children–he does, I’m sure–and so do I. But without even knowing his children I can know this about them: they are not perfect. They hurt. They make mistakes. They struggle. They are prideful and overly simplistic at times; and crippled by shame and hesitancy at others. Yes–they are beautiful examples of human beings, his children (I assume), and mine (I know.) But they are not perfect. If they were, they would not be human. If it were possible to raise children to perfection, then God would have sent a parenting method, not Jesus. Our marching orders are not to raise our children by a method to be like *insert parenting guru* children. Our marching orders are to be Christians to and with our children.”
Posted by molleth on June 10, 2008 at 10:10 am
Thanks, TG. Good quote.
You know, another great question to consider is how does God parent us. As a new babe in Christ, how did He handle my many many (many) failures? With a rod quick to strike? Or with a looooooot of patience?
I know for me, the answer is b.
I can count on one hand the times that I was aware of God’s loving chastisement. (He loves us enough to chastise us, yes, just as Heb. 12 says). I’m glad He is gracious enough to do so.
But I can’t even begin to count all the times He could have rightfully punished me and yet responded with kindness instead…which befuddled me and, yes, just like the verse says it does, led me to repentance. The Bible says He is slow to anger. It’s true. He is very very VERY patient. “He understands our frame, that we are but dust.” This must be reflected in our parenting.
Posted by Katherine Gunn on June 10, 2008 at 10:39 am
Molly~
This last comment you posted – wow. Why is it so hard for us to grasp this?