Caution: Christians Using Brains Ahead (Muddy Waters, Box Stuffing Fanatics and Church History)

I was wanting to write a post tonight, but got reading here and there in the more hyper-conservative side of the Christian blogosphere and my stomach began to tighten up and an urge to just shove the whole thing into the toilet began to overcome the better part of my brain.  Though maybe that is the better part of my brain.  Not shoving the blogosphere (or my computer moniter), that is, but shoving a few loud cymbal-clanging teachers that want men and women and their “Christian families” to fit into little tidy boxes or die in the trying.   (No, really.  Meaning literally die trying). 

I had a similar pit tighten in my stomach this morning when I met a lady who knows a lady who I once gave a parenting book to—along with a glowing recommendation.  Somehow we got to talking about the mutual friends we had and whaddya know, up pops the name of this parenting book.  It went from me to the first lady and now she gave it to the lady I met today, soon to be a first-time mom, who was gushing about it. 

The book was the infamous/beloved (depending on your circle), ”On Becoming Babywise,” and is all about scheduling feedings and giving advice to let newborns cry themselves to sleep and reminding parents to watch out for that selfish new baby who will want ridiculous things like, say, cuddling too much, or wanting to nurse in order to be soothed.  

Can you imagine?  What dangerous little vipers babies must be.  I did my best to gently mention that the book was something I liked as a new mom but really had reservations about now, as the good advice was mixed up with some problematic instructions.  I could tell by the way the lady’s eyes changed that not liking the book’s message was not a valid option.  So I smiled nicely and changed the subject.  Okay.  Whatever.  It’s not the first time a book I’ve passed out has come back to bite me in the butt.  There’s at least twenty of the Pearl’s parenting books circulating in my community-at-large, maybe more, thanks to my zealous little new mom hands.  Toilets.  I want to flush them all down toilets.  But I can’t.  They’re on people’s bookshelves and they hand them to other people and the spread if it goes on, the idea that life is a tidy little world and it’ll all go well if you just do a, b, and c. 

No one wants to acknowlege that this thing called life is complex!  If you suggest that reality is actually messy, that sometimes the path is knee-deep covered in mud and the only way to get to the next visible place is to just WADE, that sometimes there are more colors on the page than only jet-black and snow-white, they point long fingers your direction and holler the worst names they can think of at you.  That would be things like, “feminist/humanist/marxist/liberal Democrat/postmodernist/etc, all of which mean a variation of Satan’s Evil Sidekick. 

In circles like some I wander in and once frequented as a member, if you wonder why Jesus somehow neglected to write out a handy dandy list detailing the “Four Hundred and Thirty Two Things You Have to do to be a Christian,” you’re told you must not be one because He certainly did, and if you’re interpreting the Bible’s “clear teaching” correctly you’d already know that, and besides, there’s waaay more than 432 things you should be doing, honey.

 My friend, E, from Water and Spirit—a Jew-met-Jesus type of guy who studies Biblical Greek for fun—and I have been talking about this very thing (the idea that it’s complex, not simple, and that sometimes it feels like the more we study, the less we know).   E, by the way, is someone I first met on a “hip hang-out” type of street corner where he’d set up a table with self-written tracts set on it, along with a few sticks of Nag Champa burning.  He had great discussions with passersby, and I do mean actual REAL discussions as opposed to stuffing his opinions down people’s throats, and one day, one of those people was me.  E helped me take some of my first formative steps into following Christ as a messed-up 19 year old, and my husband and I have been friends with him ever since. 

He me an email lately that really hits the nail on the head.  My stomach is sick with good reason.  It’s not all in my head.  Something’s rotten.  Something needs flushed.  Why aren’t we using our brains?  Why do we think that complexity is evil?  Why are we who come from the evangelical/fundie-hood so afraid of everything that’s not white-wonder-bread flavored.  Who told us that wanting to eat anything but pre-digested little bits of flavorless dogma is to sin against God? 

But E says it better, not surprisingly, so I’ll let his email take it from here: 

So I’m now about halfway through Vol. 4 of Jaroslav Pelikan’s series on THE CHRISTIAN TRADITION. One thing reading this series (5 volumes in all) has done for me is make me realize (I think correctly) how many unacknowledged assimilations of theological assumptions I and pastors I’ve heard and known seem to have operated from.

I read about the development and setting forth of doctrines, etc., from the various figures who came up with them and I think:

“Oh, okay, that’s where the three ways the church’s use of the Law in relation to the Gospel came from” (i.e., 1. for inducing repentance; 2. for maintaining discipline in society; 3. as moral standards for Christians)

or

“Oh, so that’s how/why/when the Protestants first argued against the ‘Real Presence’ by saying that since Christ is seated at the right hand of the Father, He can’t also be present in the bread and wine”

or

“So that’s where the idea was first put forth that the church is the assembly of all believers among whom the gospel is preached in its purity and the holy sacraments are administered according to the gospel,” etc.

I guess if you’re in an old church tradition (e.g., Reformed or Lutheran, or even Catholic or Orthodox) where the pastor/priest makes a point of teaching you the history and cardinal doctrines and distinctives of the denomination, you learn how the founder(s) came up with them, argued for them, and formed a church based on them.

But if you’re in Biblechurchville or Non-Denominationaland, you probably mainly assimilate these things indirectly as the pastor teaches and preaches while operating from theological assumptions/conclusions/teachings that he, too, picked up un-analytically by reading lots of Christian books whose authors also just pass them along as if that’s how Christians have always believed, etc.

(He could have gone to seminary and learned them formally, but since many seminaries are connected with particular denominations, there is probably not a lot of value in getting a broad and deep understanding of church history and the history of the development of doctrine, since there is only one history and line of doctrine that really matters to the people and places he is going to after he graduates. When I took my Greek classes at a Baptist seminary, I overheard ignorant comments about “Charismatics” that students would make in the dining hall, indicating their lack of familiarity with or understanding of things that were not Baptist. With an increased interest in “the early church,” IVP and other Evangelical publishing companies have been putting out books on the subject, yet some I’ve seen/skimmed seem to be ignore things that would cause cognitive dissonance in their Evangelical readers, so the reader gets a highly-filtered and selective understanding of the early church from reading them.)

No, Christians have NOT always believed in the substitutionary atonement and/or believed in it as being THE reason Christ died. It’s not “clearly” what the Bible teaches, even though it does teach that.

No, the communion elements have not always been regarded as being representational with no spiritual effect on the one communicating. That idea didn’t become widespread until just a few hundred years ago. It wasn’t what “the Bible clearly teaches.” It may be what the Bible teaches, but it’s not how most of the early Christians, and most Christians for hundreds of years afterwards, understood the Scriptures about those things.

Your typical newly-evangelized Evangelical Christian is given a systematic theology that is assumed by him and the ones who led him to the Lord, as well as by the pastor of the church he attends, to be what has always been believed everywhere and by all, and is what “the Bible says.”

But it’s not that simple.

And I suspect the messiness and complexity of the history of the development of Christian beliefs is not well known by your average Joe or Jill Christian. And it’s probably because most of the stuff that’s on the shelves of your typical Christian bookstore also repeats and promotes and operates from many of these unquestioned assumptions without knowing or stating how and why and where they came to be.

Or so it seems to me, as I think deep thoughts while being deprived of deep sleep.

26 Responses to this post.

  1. Molly~
    Hmm… I think E and I would get along. ;-)

    At one point, I started trying to learn classic Greek on my own so I could understand better – I got an interlinear Greek/English New Testament. I got as far as being able to read the first chapter of Matthew… But I still like to use a lexicon – Hebrew or Greek – and find out what something actually means – especially if it is being used to promote a doctrine I am having trouble with… ;-)

    The results can be very interesting… I have found that certain things in the Greek have been left entirely out of many of the newer translatons… And very few Christians want to talk about these things – at least not the ones I have known… It is easier for some to just go with the flow of the status quo. That’s never worked real well for me… :D

  2. Molly~
    Okay, I went and read the “vipers-in-diapers” post. Hmm… I don’t have a lot of Bible verses to back this up –

    (although this one is a beginning…. “And they kept bringing young children to Him that He might touch them, and the disciples were reproving them [for it]. But when Jesus saw [it], He was indignant and pained and said to them, Allow the children to come to Me–do not forbid or prevent or hinder them–for to such belongs the kingdom of God. Truly I tell you, whoever does not receive and accept and welcome the kingdom of God like a little child [does] positively shall not enter it at all. And He took them [the children up one by one] in His arms and [fervently invoked a] blessing, placing His hands upon them.” Mark 10:13-16 (Amplified))

    Anyway, what I have come to believe is that although we are all born with the sin nature – it is a genetic thing (that could be an entire post of its own) – it doesn’t kick in right away. Paul says that sin was not charged to men’s account where there was no law to tell them what sin was. (Romans 5:12-14)

    So I think that the idea of the ‘age of accountability’ that some denominations have had was not so far off. RCs are confirmed at the age of 7, I think. And I think that is part of what that is about. Bat/bar Mitzvahs are held when the child turns 13….

    Anyway, I believe with each of us, there is a specific point at which our individual knowledge of good and evil kicks in – the effect of the eating of a certain tree. I think the age varies from person to person. I’m not sure that it ever kicks in with some that have Downs Syndrome.

    I remember the exact moment in my childhood when it kicked in. I was 6 years old and suddenly I knew the difference between something being wrong because I would get in trouble and something being evil in and of itself.

    Here’s where I might get labeled a heretic, but I think that maybe we are not even capable of sinning until this kicks in – not that we don’t do things that are wrong – but for it to be sin that is counted against us, we need to be aware… (Romans 7:9 and thereabouts talks a little about this, too…).

    Hmm… the point is, I do not think babies are inherently wicked. In fact, I think that is somewhat absurd… ;-)

  3. And you, Molly Davis aka Aley, were the talented artist who illustrated my tracts. (I think I threw my masters away when I purged my bulging file cabinets a year or so ago, and don’t even have any copies lying around.)

    :(

    My comments/thoughts you quoted were not so much about not using our brains as about accepting and believing and teaching as “the faith” many unexamined theological assumptions that are usually assimilated without question and put forth and supported by some Bible verses, with us nodding our heads “in hearty agreement.”

    This is not comfortable territory – i.e., examing doctrine, church history, the canon, the articles of faith, etc. If one is too brainy and analytical, one can argue oneself out of the faith. And indeed, that seems to be part of the subject matter of Chapter 4 of Pelikan’s Volume 4 – “The Word and the Will of God” – which I just started, where questioning and rejection of Trinitarian doctrine and creedal definitions becomes a logical step after the church’s authority and Traditions are jettisoned in favor of “the Word of God alone” as the measure and protector of Truth and True faith.

    *sigh*

    Don’t take the red pill unless you’re willing to see how deep the rabbit hole goes.

  4. Hooray, another theolgy-rich blog where controversies are not avoided. Great post! I hope to read more thoughts here, and youre’ always welcome to join us over at “There’s no place like home…..” (I like the Wizard of Oz, can ya tell? Plus, the army sent us home for a while so that’s cool.)

  5. Good grief, I was in a bad mood last night when I wrote this! Sorry… I just re-read what I wrote and now I’m feeling embarrassed. Sheesh.

    For perspective, I had just finished reading more about a big leader in the homeschooling movement (linked to in this post) telling everyone that had an ectopic/tubal pregnancy that they were murderers if they had the baby removed…I kind of blog-hopped from there and found more of the same…all the things that you SHOULD be doing…and why you were likely on satan’s little helper list if you weren’t doing them…

    it just makes me want to throw in the towel and quit just to run far far far from these people. Ugh. Like hearing about a case of lice, it feels like it makes everything everywhere itch. I’d probably have just laughed or rolled my eyes, but since that’s my own particular subculture background and I’m aware of the power of these people’s words over said subculture, it was hard not to have a visceral response. I’ll get over it. I don’t know why it affected/effected me so strongly last night. Maybe partly because of the book, a book I handed out a long time ago, resurfacing and coming back to bite me. Ideas have consequences…

    Anyways, what Eric wrote was a HECK of a lot more interesting. I just ordered the first volume in the series he mentions and am looking forward to reading it. There are a lot of things I am wondering about…and I really want to meet the church of the first 1,000 years.

  6. Molly, I hear ya dearie. I was in the same place last night, as evidenced in my whole Soli Deo Gloria rant. I couldn’t help but nod assent to much of what you were getting at, and what E stated…

    I’ve generally lived in nonDenom life most of my adult life, and was only a tepid Roman Catholic (my parents left the church when I was seven-ish?) and I’d have to say that so much of what I’ve learned over the last year at TW and observing the fundie-hole I almost fell into…well, I find some of the beliefs different flavors of the church hold to be astonishing. From my ignorance (of church history and theology), I often wonder, why the heck does it matter? And then situations like this whole Doug Phillips/Ectopic pregnancy thing suddenly bring the issues/belief systems/theological underpinnings into sharp focus.

    I’m with you, wandering out in the pasture. The grass tastes so much better over here.

    I think the one thing that drives me bonkers (as you stated) is just how small of a box we try to stuff God into with all of the 432 Ways to be A Christian list (love that!). And I can definitely agree with E’s saying that if you can get too brainy, you can talk yourself out of faith. I’ve definitely been there. Some times I get caught back in that eddy again~ it’s not a pleasant place to be.

  7. First of all, I’m part of the general consesus here. Hopefully I can add to this conversation. You all are so smart and write so well!

    God gave us pure doctrine in Jesus. Hopefully we all agree on that. All doctrine man-made, added or outside of that is sort of nit-picking so to say. Or out-right false according to the teachings of Jesus.

    Pastors and those in authority are given the authority to set up a foundation of structure for the church (body of Christ) that they are overseeing based on that churches physical and spiritual circumstances. For example the church in Corinth had different instruction from that in Ephesus. That’s a perfect example.

    What’s better, for the police officer to recommend that the man stops getting angry because it always results in the beating of the man’s wife or to throw the man’s ass in jail? Structure is good. Some congregations need to be told to knock it off where others only need a warning.

    When people in pastoral positions either 1.) take a foundation outside of Jesus or 2.) take their structure from other churches they give themselves and their people to religion or the start of one. And then confusion tends to set in, either right away or generations later (people telling other people that this and that is right and blah blah blah).

    The situation does get more complicated though with the misinterpretation of scripture. Pastors or people can take verses out of context and base whole religions on it. Say for instance a religion that believes you to do good works in order to receive salvation (ahem). That is a classic example of taking scripture out of context.

    I’m afraid this won’t be fixed anytime soon. We’re seeing the advent of other religions or flavors such as emerging and emergent. I suspect that unless spirit-filled Christians start becoming less interested in what the church can do for them, more interested in who they are coming under the authority of and more interested in why they are going there to begin with we will continue to have this problem.

    And it’s the responsibility of the pastors to communicate specifically why the are teaching what they are teaching and to challenge their people on why they are showing up.

    Church is dead because of luxury on both the part of the pastor and the congregation. But in the end the pastor is responsible. Who will defend their congregation and who will care about their church?

  8. The situation does get more complicated though with the misinterpretation of scripture. Pastors or people can take verses out of context and base whole religions on it. Say for instance a religion that believes you to do good works in order to receive salvation (ahem). That is a classic example of taking scripture out of context.

    Since “salvation” is a process, not a one-time event, and the word-group for “save” encompasses more than a single “born-again” experience, or even simply spiritual wholeness, to say that good works are not to be done in order to receive salvation contradicts not only some of Jesus’ own words (e.g., the Sermon on the Mount) and what James writes in his book, but also what some of the earliest Christian writings we have outside the New Testament say, some of which were treated and regarded as Scripture before a 27-book collection was eventually largely agreed upon. (But never actually officially ratified before the Roman Catholic Church did so at the Council of Trent in 1546. Why Evangelical Protestants accept the Roman Catholic canon of the New Testament, instead of the ones Luther and/or Zwingli promoted – which omitted or wanted to omit some of the NT books – is an interesting situation, to say the least.)

    I.e., if you had told an early Christian that one does not do good works in order to receive salvation, he or she would probably have regarded you as a bit of a heretic. The doctrine of justification by faith alone that is widely held by many Evangelical Protestants today, and assumed to be “what the Bible teaches” and “what Christians always believed before the church became corrupted by a rituals-and-works mentality and spirituality,” seems to have largely originated with Martin Luther.

  9. Let me be clear for fear that I’ve said something I didn’t mean. I believe in redemption (John 3) by grace (from God) and the salvation it brings. I do not believe that there are any good works we can do to obtain it (Mark 10). And I obey (with fear and trembling, Phiippians 2 ), I follow the teachings of Jesus (I contend for the cross) and all the good works they lead to, because I love God.

    The “Why I hate religion – Mark Driscoll” video on YouTube is a perfect illustration for what I believe.

    I disagree that the doctrine of justification by faith alone largely originated with Martin Luther. It’s clearly written in John 14. On top of that the New Testament is peppered with supporting scripture to that chapter some of which are pointed to above.

    I’d be interested in seeing scripture that supports the contrary.

  10. Justin Carroll:

    I’m not saying that there aren’t Scriptures that support “justification by faith alone.” I’m saying that if you read church history and the history of church doctrine (there are a number of good books by church historians and scholars to choose from), you will find that for the first 14 centuries or so of the church, including the second century, trying to find this doctrine of salvation being taught and widely held is not unlike looking for a needle in a haystack.

    To you and many others it may be “what the Scriptures plainly teach,” but the historical record doesn’t support that being how the early recipients of the New Testament Scriptures and the Gospel largely interpreted them.

    So it’s not a matter of finding Scriptures to support it or refute it. It’s a matter of reading what the Christians who lived in the shadow of the apostles and were taught by them and/or their immediate successors taught and believed about Jesus Christ, the church, salvation, the Scriptures, and the kingdom of God, and how that was likewise understood and interpreted and transmitted by their successors.

    It may be a bit of hyperbole, but this quote is interesting, nevertheless:

    5.

    Meanwhile, before setting about this work, I will address one remark to Chillingworth and his friends:—Let them consider, that if they can criticize history, the facts of history certainly can retort upon them. It might, I grant, be clearer on this great subject than it is. This is no great concession. History is not a creed or a catechism, it gives lessons rather than rules; still no one can mistake its general teaching in this matter, whether he accept it or stumble at it. Bold outlines and broad masses of colour rise out of the records of the past. They may be dim, they may be incomplete; but they are definite. And this one thing at least is certain; whatever history teaches, whatever it omits, whatever it exaggerates or extenuates, whatever it says and unsays, at least the Christianity of history is not Protestantism. If ever there were a safe truth, it is this.

    And Protestantism has ever felt it so. I do not mean that every writer on the Protestant side has felt it; for it was the fashion at first, at least as a rhetorical argument against Rome, to appeal to past ages, or to some of them; but Protestantism, as a whole, feels it, and has felt it. This is shown in the determination already referred to of dispensing with historical Christianity altogether, and of forming a Christianity from the Bible alone: men never would have put it aside, unless they had despaired of it. It is shown by the long neglect of ecclesiastical history in England, which prevails even in the English Church. Our popular religion scarcely recognizes the fact of the twelve long ages which lie between the Councils of Nicæa and Trent, except as affording one or two passages to illustrate its wild interpretations of certain prophesies of St. Paul and St. John. It is melancholy to say it, but the chief, perhaps the only English writer who has any claim to be considered an ecclesiastical historian, is the unbeliever Gibbon. To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant.

    6.

    And this utter incongruity between Protestantism and historical Christianity is a plain fact, whether the latter be regarded in its earlier or in its later centuries. Protestants can as little bear its Ante-nicene as its Post-tridentine period. I have elsewhere observed on this circumstance: “So much must the Protestant grant that, if such a system of doctrine as he would now introduce ever existed in early times, it has been clean swept away as if by a deluge, suddenly, silently, and without memorial; by a deluge coming in a night, and utterly soaking, rotting, heaving up, and hurrying off every vestige of what it found in the Church, before cock-crowing: so that ‘when they rose in the morning’ her true seed ‘were all dead corpses’—Nay dead and buried—and without grave-stone. ‘The waters went over them; there was not one of them left; they sunk like lead in the mighty waters.’ Strange antitype, indeed, to the early fortunes of Israel!—then the enemy was drowned, and ‘Israel saw them dead upon the sea-shore.’ But now, it would seem, water proceeded as a flood ‘out of the serpent’s mouth, and covered all the witnesses, so that not even their dead bodies lay in the streets of the great city.’ Let him take which of his doctrines he will, his peculiar view of self-righteousness, of formality, of superstition; his notion of faith, or of spirituality in religious worship; his denial of the virtue of the sacraments, or of the ministerial commission, or of the visible Church; or his doctrine of the divine efficacy of the Scriptures as the one appointed instrument of religious teaching; and let him consider how far Antiquity, as it has come down to us, will countenance him in it. No; he must allow that the alleged deluge has done its work; yes, and has in turn disappeared itself; it has been swallowed up by the earth, mercilessly as itself was merciless.”

    - Introduction, An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine, by John Henry Newman

  11. Thanks for that reply. I do understand what you’re saying now.

    I’m not at all surprised that early Christians screwed this up because 1.) there were people in the Bible that screwed it up and 2.) people today screw it up. I don’t believe we need to look to the early successors for revelation here when it’s drawn for us all over the New Testament.

    But overall I do agree that we have entangled ourselves in religion. Most churches in America spiritually look like a scene from Village of the Damned.

  12. I’m not at all surprised that early Christians screwed this up because 1.) there were people in the Bible that screwed it up and 2.) people today screw it up.

    “And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of hades will not prevail against it. However, My church, while able to withstand the gates and assaults of hades, will be no match for the understandings and misunderstandings of men, including those who hear the Word from My lips or hear my Word through the lips of those who hear Me, and who will lose and distort and misunderstand what I say before My words even sink into their ears. Father, I ask for a Church that is like Superman, and You give me Woody Allen. Oy vey!” (Matthew 16:18, New Revised Slandered Version)

  13. Lots of good food for thought, as usual.
    I really find myself struggling about what to do about church/community. I’ve read enough history to agree with the quote “To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant.” Evangelical protestantism just doesn’t cut it for me any more. I love the idea of continuity and connectedness to Christians from history that both the RC and EO churches have. But then I read one of the gospels where Jesus is breaking misconceptions the Jews had about tradition, and I get confused. It seems like the RC and EO churches have made cultural norms into “this is how church is.” Maybe not in their formal doctrine, but in the life of the community and expected practices. I just don’t know what to do. I feel kind of suspended.
    Actually, the last time I went to church was on Easter, but wasn’t an Easter service because I went to an Orthodox church. Honestly, I don’t really have motivation to go to church.
    I’m part of a pretty strong campus Bible study/dinner group, as well as a “book” club (I say “book” because we really just get together for fellowship, and sometimes discuss the book we may or may not have read…currently Everything Must Change by McLaren). So I get community that way. But I haven’t had communion in a long time, and miss it.
    I really don’t know what the Church is supposed to be…pardon my ramblings.

  14. I’m new to reading your blog, and I find it interesting, although I must admit I don’t tend to agree. I appreciate your perspective though.
    I understand your frustration with legalism, particularly when related to parenting (I myself have experienced the difficulties of being surrounded by a “Babywise” world). But I feel what God has shown me through that issue specifically and in other areas in general is that this isn’t really what matters.
    This may sound really simple-minded, but doesn’t the Bible very clearly explain that we are called to love God with all our heart, and to love our neighbor as ourself?
    For me this has become the bottom line. I feel like if I’m devoting all of myself to seeking and loving God, and in turn loving others, then there is no time or reason for all of this strife and finger-pointing and disagreement over things that do not matter eternally.
    I’m not judging or criticizing you; this is just an area that God has really been working a lot of change in my heart, and I feel compelled to share it with you.

  15. Thanks, Ashley. I agree that those are the two BIGGIES. That’s pretty much where I’m at. But I also think that it’s okay to mull over things we’re wondering about. That’s what this blog is for. Thinking. Mulling, and discussing said mulling with others. It’s my processing place. :)

    I also think it’s totally okay to disagree with eachother. Like, say, get mad about things that are being promoted in the name of Christ (like, the head of Vision Forum’s recent pronouncment of murderers upon the heads of all women who’ve had tubal pregancies and chose to have the baby taken out of their fallopian tube, etc). I used to run in a heavy Vision Forum circle and know lots of people who view VF as if it came from On High. So I think it’s totally within the realm of love to say, “No the heck way, that’s NOT okay to say,” regarding this leader’s pronouncement.

    Same with Babywise. If you see someone with a failure-to-thrive baby and they’re gung-ho on Babywise, it’s *love* to tell them that their feeding schedule is likely what’s causing the failure-to-thrive. I don’t see that as finger-pointing or strife, though it may cause discomfort.

    Teachergirl,
    Whew, great ramblings. I’m on the same page in a lot of ways. I’m not entirely delighted with where I find myself, yet I can’t go back to the evang/fundie circus, nor do I feel entirely comfortable stepping into the Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox worlds. Urgh~!

    Justin and Eric,
    Enjoying listening to you two.

  16. Eric,
    That quote from Newman was…well…it pretty much said it all. Ouch.

  17. Posted by tracy on June 13, 2008 at 8:46 pm

    Hi Molly,

    A book you might find interesting: “A Christianity Worth Believing” by Doug Pagitt. He gets into the whole theology discussion and examines just where some of the beliefs came from and how much of it was connected to the Roman culture. My description here does not do it justice. Check it out if you can. And – keep on writing. I love coming here to see what you’ve been thinking about.
    Peace,
    Tracy

  18. Hm, thanks. I’ve seen that, but never picked it up. I’ll put it on my list.

  19. WOW.

    Great post.

  20. I wrote:

    This is not comfortable territory – i.e., examing doctrine, church history, the canon, the articles of faith, etc. If one is too brainy and analytical, one can argue oneself out of the faith. And indeed, that seems to be part of the subject matter of Chapter 4 of Pelikan’s Volume 4 – “The Word and the Will of God” – which I just started, where questioning and rejection of Trinitarian doctrine and creedal definitions becomes a logical step after the church’s authority and Traditions are jettisoned in favor of “the Word of God alone” as the measure and protector of Truth and True faith.

    That should have been Chapter 6 – “Challenges to Apostolic Continuity” – not Chapter 4, which at one point I had stopped reading and skipped ahead to see what was coming.

    You’d love the part I’m just now starting in Chapter 4:

    “Yet it was obvious from Scripture as well as from the experience of the church past and present that those who would respond with such ‘obedience of faith’ to the proclamation of the word of God would never be more than a minority, and that most of the human race would never so much as have the opportunity to refuse the word. Therefore the most ‘awesome [horribile]‘ implication of the Reformed view of obedience to the word and will of God – and the one upon which its opponents, differ though they might among themselves otherwise, all fastened most often in their polemics – was the Calvinist doctrine of double predestination. The first edition of John Calvin’s Institutes in 1536 referred to election in Christ before the creation of the world, along with redemption and reconciliation, as the foundation of ‘the architecture of Christian doctrine.’ This edition of the Institutes (and then the Heidelberg Catechism) also treated the idea of predestination in connection with the clarification of the definition of the church as ‘the people of God’s elect,’ although Ursinus did explain the Heidelberg Catechism as saying that ‘the efficient cause of the difference [between the elect and the reprobate] is the election of God,’ which he identified as both election and reprobation; yet the Institutes of 1536 (and then the Thirty-Nine Articles of the Church of England) did not make explicit reference to the corollary idea of a predestination to damnation at all.Similarly, of the fifty sermons collected in 1552 into the Decades of Heinrich Bullinger, just one half of one sermon was devoted to predestination, in the context of the doctrines of creation and providence. With each subsequent edition of Calvin’s Institutes, the amount of space devoted to predestination increased, as did the consideration specifically addressed to the problem of the ‘reprobate,’ those whom God had predestined to damnation. Yet as late as 1556, when this process had already gone almost as far as it ever would (the climax came in 1559, with the final edition of the Institutes), Calvin indignantly repudiated the accusation that his exposition of the certainty of salvation took predestination as its starting point.”

    Ahhhh, good old Calvinism.

  21. E~
    Ahhhh, indeed. ;-) It is an interesting exercise to discuss the ‘elect’ with a staunch Calvinist. It is, in my experience, like talking to a wall. Whether they cannot or will not hear, I don’t know, but they do not hear but through the filter of their doctrine… which is true of most of us, at one point or another. :-D

  22. I have good good good good GOOD friends who are Calvinists. It always makes me wonder if I”m really really really really misunderstanding TULIP. (It’s my blog. I can repeat words over and over and over and over if I want to). :)

    Because there are parts of TULIP that deeply disturb me. Yet my friends are some of the most gracious God-loving people I know. And not stupid, either. So I never know quite how to flip out about said aspects of TULIP. That make any sense? :lol:

    Can’t wait for the first volume of this history series to get in, Eric, from Amazon. I’ve probably read 4-5 different versions of “Church History,” but admittedly all of them have been distinctintly Protestant.

  23. [...] Here’s a good post/discussion on complexity and the gray areas. HT: Kouya Chronicle. [...]

  24. Molls,

    While definitely coming from a particular point of view, and one which you don’t embrace (yet, ha!), while you are doing more reading and research and contemplating on church history, I think you’d really enjoy these lecture series:

    Ancient and Medieval Church History
    Reformation and Modern Church History

    As a survey course, obviously they are limited. But they do touch on Church history outside of the western world more than most do.

    Grace and peace,

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