If you are like me, you’ve often voted Republican because, despite the areas where you may disagree with them, you are profoundly pro-life and will vote for just about anything if it will bring down the amount of human lives lost to abortion.
Here would be the place to say that I’m also profoundly pro-woman. I have nothing but deep pity for the woman caught in a pregnancy that she didn’t plan or want. I am not anti-woman, pro-baby. Rather, I am for the lives of both. I believe that abortion hurts women—-hurts the mother deeply, as well as ends a human life. It is my opinion that abortion is lose/lose.
Some of my friends have had abortions and privately share the deep grief that it’s caused them, a thing that doesn’t ever go away. I wish I could wipe that pain away from them. I wish I could give them that year back, a chance to make a different choice. And I also wish they were free to be open about the pain they have dealt with instead of having to hide it, because I wish that other women could know what abortion will cost them.
It really bothers me that information like that is kept from women. To me, a pro-woman position would include full disclosure of information, including an ultrasound. Women deserve the right to know. Before people go in for knee surgery, for crying out loud, they get light-years worth of a better explanation of what’s going to happen and why, then they get if they go in for an abortion. When we are with-holding information like that, we’re not treating women as full adults.
I am pro-woman—so I think women have the right to all the information about what’s going to happen when they have an abortion, as well as a full explanation of all the risks.
I am also for being a society that helps women facing an unwanted pregnancy, instead of turns a blind eye while they, alone, bear the consequences of a moment that took two adults to make happen.
So, yes, I’m unashamedly pro-life. And I’m pro-environment for the same reason. Being for a healthy environment is being pro-life. Thinking that we shouldn’t stop companies from polluting our water, for example, is an example of being anti-life. (For those who don’t agree, I would appreciate hearing how and why it’s “pro-life” that we live in a world where pregnant women can’t eat fish more than once a week, lest the pollutants found in the meat damage their unborn child).
Thanks to not protecting the environment, death and destruction increase on a number of fronts. Being pro-life isn’t just being anti-abortion. Being pro-life is being respectful of life in a circumspect way. Being for life is a broad big thing.
And torturing human beings is not consistant with a pro-life stance. Torture is an anti-life activity, and being ambivalent or accepting of torture is an anti-life stance. Torture violates the concept that all humans are made in the image of God. When we believe that all humans are made in God’s image, we believe that all humans should be treated with dignity. That means we treat the unborn with dignity. That means we also treat the Iraqi with dignity.
When we believe in obeying the God of the Bible, we believe in treating others as we would be treated. Jesus said that if you wanted to sum up the Law and the Prophets, it all came down to two commandments. Paul summed it up the same way: love God and love your fellow human. Love includes treating others with respect. Torture, however, is an extreme act of disrespect. Torture is inconsistant with obeying God’s law to love Him and to love those He’s made in His image.
Not to mention, from a pragmatic standpoint, torture guarantees nothing by way of results. It does not increase the amount of information one gets, because people will say anything and everything in order to reduce the amount of pain. So, sure, you get more information when you torture, but you have no way of telling how much of it is false and how much of it is true. In the end, you learn nothing more than you knew before. The only thing you’ve gained is the joy of humiliating your enemy.
And the only thing that does is solidify *their* view of you as the enemy. Let’s be frank. Our country was hated before we were known to be torturers. The fact that we tortured made a whole lot of Iraqi’s, not sure of which side to choose, choose the anti-American side. So choosing to call torture acceptable made us lose in every single way possible, excluding the fact that torturing our enemy gave us a sick and perverse sense of joy. Which lowered our own humanity more than it lowered the humanity of those we tortured. So in the end, calling torture acceptable made us lose in every way.
Which is another way to say that, unless a strong stand is made that torture is unacceptable and should be prosecuted as a war crime, you may want to reconsider calling the Republican party, ”pro-life.” As of right now, no, they aren’t. Let’s hope that changes.
And for those who derided Clinton for fudging the truth and claiming, among other things, that he didn’t have sex with “that woman”—-a claim that Republicans and Christians loudly decried later, when it became more than evident that he wasn’t being truthful—-I don’t understand the huge double-standards. Why are many of those same Republicans and Christians being so astoundingly silent about fellow Christian, John Ashcroft, when he testifies that waterboarding is not a form of torture?
My opinion on why Christians can’t seem to get up the nerve to say that torture isn’t acceptable? Because our president and our attorney general are professed Christians and they belong to the party that conservative Christians call their own. And so what we would never stomach if it came from the mouth of a Democrat president or his/her staff, we bend over and take because it’s “our” side doing it.
There is no good reason for torture. There is no justification for it, especially not for the follower of Christ. An avid reader and a daughter of parents who kept a well-stocked library on the wall right outside my bedroom, I fell asleep at night reading books like “Tortured for His Faith.” I cannot shake those images from my mind when I read about the torture being justified as “necessary” today. Go ask our fellow Believers in the underground church what they think of torture, like Richard Wurmbrand (whose story is highly worth reading: “In God’s Underground“).
Why do we unanimously frown on the Chinese government for torturing Christians, but don’t say much against our president when he approves torturing non-Christians? If we, as followers of Christ, only stand up for the dignity of life when it’s our own, we’ve missed the radical nature of the Gospel altogether.
Torture is what the bad guys do.
So what does that make us?
Further Reading: US Torture and Abuse of Detainees, Believe Me, It’s Torture (journalist, Christopher Hitchens, gets “water-boarded,” something the Bush Adminstration emphatically claims isn’t “torture” at all), and this excellent interview with Jane Mayer.

















Posted by E on July 20, 2008 at 9:52 am
The Hitchens piece left me gasping. Suffocating or drowning must be one of the worst forms of death. Remember The Abyss? IIRC, Tommy Nelson at Denton Bible Church in a sermon mentioned the movie, and referred to a scene which he said he would not describe, but that those who’d seen the movie would know what he meant. I know exactly which scene he meant, but I wonder how many people in the congregation were wondering what he was talking about, and wondering if it was off-color, or what.
Posted by Fred on July 20, 2008 at 11:18 am
Molly, you are so right. As one who has consistently voted for the GOP, I’m reconsidering. It’s time for those of us who call ourselves followers of Christ to take off the jerseys of our political teams and once again speak truth to power. Somewhere along the line we got the idea that our mission was to return America to “Christian” values and morality. (Although I don’t know what is so Christian about genocide and slavery). We try to be power brokers rather than pilgrims.
Posted by TheNormalMiddle on July 20, 2008 at 11:32 am
Molly you really would make a great Quaker
In all seriousness—-I have a hard time swallowing people who are pro-life when it comes to abortion issues, yet they are staunchly for the death penalty. It is like you can pick and choose your lives to protect.
I have a hard time equating the two. A life is a life is a life is a life. Are we a “civilized society” when we kill babies, torture bad guys, starve Terri Schiavo, and kill murders for…killing?
I think we want our cake and eat it too when it comes to whose life is worth living.
Posted by TheNormalMiddle on July 20, 2008 at 11:33 am
that should read MURDERERS, not murder….duh!
Posted by Bill Samuel on July 20, 2008 at 11:43 am
Right, God is concerned about the life and dignity of each person, regardless of country, faith or political alignment. We need a wholistic pro-life stand – a consistent life ethic.
Bill Samuel, President
Consistent Life, http://www.consistent-life.org/
Posted by Diane on July 20, 2008 at 1:30 pm
Hi Molly
For most of my first 55 years I was a Republican. I appreciated their pro-life stance.
But, then we bombed Iraq. I could not believe that we attacked another country with a preemptive strike on such shoddy info. Our allies begged us not to do it but Bush plowed ahead and thousands of Iraqies have been killed, including women and children. Even with Saddam in power, we should not have done it. What next, do we bomb North Korea or Iran to rid their countries of dictators as well?. This war became an overwhelming moral issue for me, and I changed my registration to Democrat. I will proudly vote for Obama as he was one of those who voiced loud opposition to this war. How can you be pro-life and bomb another country that was NOT ready to attack us. Or as you so beautifully said, how can you claim to be prolife and approve of torture…???
Posted by Kievas Fargo on July 20, 2008 at 6:34 pm
Well said!
Posted by mtash on July 21, 2008 at 12:34 am
Agreed, very well said.
Posted by sonja on July 21, 2008 at 3:49 am
Read “Animal Farm” by George Orwell and you will find the manual that the current administration seems to be using for it’s policy on double-speak. Where else would we get a government institution on Homeland Security which is really meant to spy on us? US … our own citizens and no one said a word against it when it was voted in. We are losing our rights and freedoms all around. It was just another nail in the coffin that this administration considered torture acceptable. What is surprising to me is that it took so long for everyone to wake up.
Posted by Ed on July 21, 2008 at 4:36 am
BTW, re: “And so what we would never stomach if it came from the mouth of a Democrat president or his/her staff, we bend over and take because it’s “our” side doing it. ”
The adjective is “Democratic.” Using “Democrat” as an adjective is one of those Republican talking-points. Because they think “Democratic” is too good a word to use for the party they hate so much.
Posted by Anglicanmum on July 21, 2008 at 4:41 am
Great post. Ditto Kievas Fargo and mtash – very well said.
Just interested – what are your views on the death penalty these days? A while back you seemed broadly pro, with some reservations (if I remember correctly, which I may not!).
Posted by madame on July 21, 2008 at 4:42 am
Molly,
Reading about waterboarding made me sick. But thanks for one more thought provoking post.
Posted by Shauna on July 21, 2008 at 6:45 am
US … our own citizens and no one said a word against it when it was voted in. We are losing our rights and freedoms all around. It was just another nail in the coffin that this administration considered torture acceptable. What is surprising to me is that it took so long for everyone to wake up.
[sarcasm] But if you’re not doing anything wrong, then you have nothing to fear. No need to get worked up over it. Just trust the government not to abuse its ever-expanding power. Who needs the 4th Amendment anyway? [/sarcasm]
Or so goes the justification for supporting the Patriot Act, REAL ID, wiretapping, and all the other astonishing blows to civil rights that this administration has implemented in the name of national security.
Posted by mrsjoy on July 21, 2008 at 9:15 am
I have to confess that as a younger “Christian” (I put that in quotes because I was more culturally Christian than I was faithfully Christian, if you know what I mean…) I was staunchly “pro-life” anti-abortion, but for the death penalty. It wasn’t until three years ago and a class that I actually thought it all through and realized what a strange dichotomy it all was.
I find it fascinating that practically every Christian friend I talk to these days is really disgusted with the current political choices and are like “I’m not voting Republican or Democrat, just “because”…I am going to think this whole thing through very hard, and make the choice I feel reflects my faith the best.” I say wahooo!
Great thoughtful post. Lots to chew on!
Posted by mrsjoy on July 21, 2008 at 9:16 am
Blasted emoticon! What is it with wordpress?
Posted by sue on July 21, 2008 at 9:29 am
I read this weekend that Obama pledged support for troops in Afganistan. But he wants us out of Iraq. So he against the war or not? I feel tired listening to all the soon to be empty promises. The last time I voted was 2 years ago in a school board election. I haven’t voted in a state or national election for 8 years because I got tired of wasting the paper.
Posted by pilgrimhen on July 21, 2008 at 10:35 am
Very well said. Thank you for sharing this! I just watched Ghosts of Abu Grahib and was absolutely mortified to see the irrefutable evidence that the government has backed away from the Geneva Conventions. How did this happen? I will be very glad next January when there is a new President.
Posted by sue on July 21, 2008 at 11:25 am
I always thought I was prolife. When I was 18, I gave birth to a daughter who gave up for adoption. Now for the past 5 years, I have been dealing with an emotionally disturbed 30 year old women who thinks I’m her ‘mommy’, She has caused no end of havoc in my life, my marriage and family. Dealing with the guilt of abortion would have been easier than this.
Posted by traveller on July 21, 2008 at 12:02 pm
Yes, this is a thoughtful post. Pro-life is far more than being anti-abortion. This includes being against the death penalty, in my view, if we are to be consistent.
I must admit to having very mixed feelings about Iraq. The stated reasons for going into Iraq were bogus, either the administration lied or they deceived themselves. However, Saddam Hussein was as brutal as you can imagine. I am pretty convinced that violence does not justify violence but the people of Iraq were in a terrible situation before the invasion. Having been to Iraq before the war and after, it appears to me the Iraqis are certainly no better off and in many ways are far worse off than before the war. This was horribly bungled by the US.
Posted by Christine on July 21, 2008 at 12:57 pm
Molly, I completely see where you’re coming from about being disgusted with professing Christian politicians who defend torture. However, I am a bit confused by some of the comments.
Diane has stated that she will vote proudly for Obama because of all the people being killed in the war. Being pro-life means you’re against innocent people being tortured and killed as a part of war. Except the problem is that Obama is very much pro-abortion and opposes all legislation that would limit abortions in any way. So Diane has decided, effectively, that it is no longer important to protect the unborn because the already-born are being killed and we need to protect them instead. Diane is assigning value to human beings based on where they live (inside or outside the womb).
Sue, I am sorry this woman is causing you so much pain. However, she is still loved by God and deserving of life. You did the right thing, no matter what you may be feeling now. The wrongness of killing a child in the womb is not measured by whether a woman feels guilt, but by that child’s status as a creation of God.
Regarding war, torture, and the death penalty: I’m certainly not in the same state of mind I was when I went to a big “Come on, do it now!” pro-war rally in early 2003. However, it would be unthinkable for me simply to give up on the unborn as a reactionary tactic against the current administration.
Posted by Diane on July 21, 2008 at 3:53 pm
Christine
Thanks for your comment. What I meant is that neither candidate is totally prolife, so it is impossible to vote on that issue alone. I am just tired of the Republicans claiming to be the prolife party, when they are anything but when it comes to war, torture, care for the poor and medical insurance issues. It is just as important to take care of those already born as it is to march on an antiabortion platform.
Posted by E on July 21, 2008 at 6:26 pm
The first person who figures out what Barack stands for, what he believes, and what he has done to deserve to run for President wins a kewpie doll!
A … big … fat … no, make that a … tall … thin … empty suit.
He’s as thin as a weather vane, and blows with the wind like one, too.
Posted by Nathan Bubna on July 21, 2008 at 8:38 pm
Amen, Molly. I fully agree. Let’s be honest. A lot of the so-called “pro-choice” people are actually “pro-abortion” and “anti-unintended-mother” with the ways they withhold information from women considering killing their unborn child.
And just as it is ridiculously inconsistent for the GOP to be anti-abortion and pro-torture/unprovoked-war/death-penalty, it is also ridiculously inconsistent that left-wingers can be claim to be pro-woman while supporting the abortion industry; that they can be against clubbing baby seals or testing shampoo on rats, but be fine with the willful murder of unborn children for the convenience of the kid’s parents (and society in general).
We need more options. The GOP and the Democrats are in the pocket of too many different groups. We need more options than pro-war/anti-abortion and pro-abortion-rights/anti-war. I want another choice. But so long as people continue to vote for “the lesser of two evils” as they see it or abstain from the democratic process altogether, we will NEVER GET ANY OTHER CHOICES. Nothing will change if we keep doing the same old things or do nothing and leave others to do the same old things.
WE NEED MORE PARTIES! The two party system is hopelessly corrupt and very prone to remain so.
VOTE THIRD PARTY!!!! In this initial stage, it really doesn’t matter which third party you vote for. Every vote for any third party is a vote against the continued stupidity and inconsistency and mediocrity of the Republicans and Democrats. The point is not so much to strengthen one specific third party, but to weaken the stranglehold the big two have on American politics. Once sufficiently weakened, it will be much easier for other parties to make a real difference.
Posted by Rebecca on July 22, 2008 at 2:34 am
I had always viewed the death penalty in light of the Old Testament, which is where (as all of you will know of course) the Law was given, and it does say, “an eye for an eye,etc.” I realize that this was superseded by Jesus (i.e. give your cloak and the shirt off your back, turn the other cheek, etc.) but I don’t think our legal system has updated to include that part yet. I do support the death penalty, and that was a conclusion I came to several years ago after doing research on the subject for a school paper. I do think that if Jesus were to make the decision he wouldn’t end anyone’s life, but then, our government and country are no longer what you would term a “Christian Nation” (IMO). And I’ll stop rambling … but it’s always interesting to hear your thoughts Molly. Keep ‘em coming!
Posted by barb on July 22, 2008 at 4:10 am
I think we shouldn’t assume the entire GOP is pro-torture. Just like we shouldn’t assume if you’re a Democrat you must be pro-choice/abortion. If I say I am a Republican do other labels immediately get plastered to my back, for good or for ill? (anti-welfare, pro-life, “pro-torture”, anti-environmental, etc). And if I’m a Democrat than I get the labels: pro-choice/abortion; pro-environment, pro-social welfare and big government. Also I think the death penalty is a gray issue in light of being “pro-life”. Some could argue like rebecca that there is biblical precedence or take the another biblical stance that’s anti-death penalty. Abortion, however, stands out as the pre-eminent pro-life issue because it is about protecting a life that can not protect itself, doesn’t have a voice.
Posted by molleth on July 22, 2008 at 10:04 am
Two people very close for me recently argued *against* the idea that torture is always wrong. They said somethign to the effect of torture being right, IF by engaging in torture you could save many lives. These are two good Jesus-following men who I like and, er, try to respect…lol… (That’s for YOU, if you’re reading)…
So I realize that followers of Christ can have severe disagreements over these things…and I guess I would have to say that the burden of proof should be on the side of the pro-torture camp, versus being on the anti-torture camp (ie, the pro-torture person needs to prove that torture actually gains you more legit information, vs. assuming that it will).
They also both pointed out that in war, all sorts of insane things happen, atrocity-wise, and that torture is just one little drop in the bucket…that it seems silly to be “anti-torture” when a big war is going on where all sorts of tortuous acts are occuring on both sides…
I dunno…I get the arguments…they actually make sense in a way…if you had a 100% guarantee that by torturing someone, you could find out information that will save 3,000 lives, would you let those 3,000 people die because of your anti-torture stance?
Yet life is rarely that sure…there are usually NO guarantees… So as a follower of Christ, I just don’t know if accepting torture as a valid means of getting information is something I can ever do. However, I’m willing to posit that it may be, EVER SO RARELY, the lesser of two evils. (Which is sort of how I feel about war, as well as the death penalty)…
Speaking of the death penalty…
I don’t know. It’s been used so badly in our country (more blacks getting the death penalty than whites, etc) that I think the way it’s used here is a case for the weak not being able to protect themselves from the oppressor. While I’m sure some heinous criminals recieved the death penalty, it’s factual to say that so have some innocent men. Usually black ones.
That says bushels right there. Not good. So I would have to say that I don’t really come down on the side of the death penalty anymore, particularly when used in our nation, BUT that I also don’t really know what I think about the concept in general as of yet…. The whole prison system in our country is a fascinating topic, one I really enjoy reading about, and it is desperately in need of reform… as in, it doesn’t work, it doesn’t work, it doesn’t work. We are costing taxpayers huge amounts of money, and we are also ruining the lives of prisoners, who often go in a little screwed up and come out MAJORLY screwed up (and end up quickly going back in, most of the time)… How and what that reform should be, I don’t know. I feel the same way about the death penalty…I know the way it is, isn’t a good thing. What it *should* be, if anything at all, I don’t know.
Posted by Atlantic on July 22, 2008 at 1:25 pm
No, they’re wrong. Torture, like abortion, is intrinsically evil. One cannot do evil that good may come of it. One may do something that has a foreseen evil side-effect under certain conditions (this is the principle of double effect), but the evil thing has to be a side-effect, not directly willed and/or the direct cause of the desired good.
In practical terms, I can imagine a situation where the apparent good to be achieved by torturing someone seems to be so large (thousands of lives, say) and so certain that one would be seriously tempted to do it. In that case, however, the benefit would be so large and so certain that I expect the would-be torturer also to be willing to sacrifice his own freedom and life. So I say make torture very illegal, and if it’s ever “really” necessary in this sense, then the torturer can explain it to the court and/or ask for a pardon.
The idea that because atrocities and war crimes happen, that some subset of them should be legalised and/or regarded as moral, is a total evisceration of the concepts of law and morality.
Posted by Eric W on July 22, 2008 at 4:25 pm
Atlantic, on July 22nd, 2008 at 1:25 pm Said:
No, they’re wrong. Torture, like abortion, is intrinsically evil. One cannot do evil that good may come of it. One may do something that has a foreseen evil side-effect under certain conditions (this is the principle of double effect), but the evil thing has to be a side-effect, not directly willed and/or the direct cause of the desired good.
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/mass/torquemada/index.html
Posted by molleth on July 22, 2008 at 4:43 pm
Atlantic,
I agree. I think that policy is an excellent idea. My two friends are close, ie, my husband and a very close family friend…I respect their opinions and realize that we aren’t going to see eye to eye on this and many other things…but I feel like torture is, well, a whole different animal than almost everything else. Maybe that’s because I read one too many books about Christians who were tortured…but it seems very clear to me that, while some other issues may be debatable, torturing is stepping over a HUGE big line in the sand.
Posted by molleth on July 22, 2008 at 4:48 pm
Btw, I wonder just how deeply our theological views impact our beliefs on torture.
I can’t help but consider that those who believe in a God who has no problem with torture (ie, those who believe God has predestined human souls to eternal hellfire) are going to be okay with torture conducted on this earth.
Their theological views would make it almost impossible to say that torture was wrong. Their God not only permits torture, but predestines it.
So how much of our acceptance of torture (the great evangelical silent acceptance, anyway) stems from our underlying theological belief that torture is okay as long as it’s the good guys doing it to the bad guys.
?
Posted by molleth on July 22, 2008 at 4:53 pm
Btw, Eric, that was an EXCELLENT article. I’ve read a couple in-depth books about Torquemada and it was truly a horrific time in Church history… Man’s inhumanity to man…we are an astounding species.
Posted by Valerie on July 22, 2008 at 5:58 pm
Molly, I have hestitated to post on this simply because I am so uninformed. My gut reaction was similar to the view you posted above – that if it is for the greater good – ie, saves the lives of many – then it is a necessary evil. Now that you’ve said that it is not an effective means of obtaining truth, that raises all sorts of questions and views that I’ve not fully considered. I’ve been thinking about the bigger picture, the way that war and sin and ugliness is not of God. It makes me think of that verse in Romans, that the whole of creation is groaning and longing for the manifestation of the sons of God. This old world is a dark place, but the light of Christ can transform it.
I believe that war is not a time of moral absolutes – do you think they are possible in such a grey area? – but ugliness such as torture is a terrible thing, but if – and a big if – it does lead to the greater good, then it seems like it is something that has to happen? I don’t know. I’m praying for His kingdom to come here on earth, and trying to live in a way that brings this about.
A lot of food for thought, here.
Valerie (used to blog at Life’s Good)
Posted by Eric W on July 22, 2008 at 7:22 pm
I suspect the God of THE SHACK does not think too highly of torture, even if it’s to achieve a “good” result from a temporal perspective.
But life is rarely black and white, if ever….
Posted by normalmiddle on July 23, 2008 at 8:08 am
I think a far too many of Americans have a Jack Bauer aka 24 idea of what torture is.
It may be, and it may not be.
What troubles me is that we do NOT have any real clue what happens in Gitmo or other such torture situations. We are not privvy to this or that. It is a select few who are.
The unknown bothers me.
And Molls, once again I think you raise a great point. Our theology probably does place a frame of reference in which we view things. when you said “as long as the good guys are torturing the bad guys…” is probably very true. We as Christians tend to look at persecution being okay as long as it is for a “godly” reason.
Posted by SuzyQ on July 23, 2008 at 9:15 am
So heart rending, horrific. It is just beyond me things like that. I have a hard time accepting people are cappable of torturing others.
I agree with you 100% on everything you say here..
A Great Post.
Posted by Maureen E on July 23, 2008 at 10:05 am
I absolutely agree on all counts and said much the same thing on my Live Journal account a few months ago. I simply cannot fathom the mindset that turns any human being into so Other an object that it’s all right for them to be tortured. And yes, waterboarding is torture. I’d like to see anyone who says it isn’t experience it and see what they say.
Also as an Orthodox Christian and one very interested in the history of the Church under the Communists in Russia, the fact that the “free” West is doing this entirely freaks me out. Makes me think of Fr. Seraphim Rose’s quote “Today in Russia, tomorrow in America.” I suppose the only good response to those fears is another Fr. Seraphim quote: “It is later than you think. Hasten therefore to do the will of God.”
Posted by Atlantic on July 23, 2008 at 3:18 pm
Catechism of the Catholic Church:
2297. Torture, which uses physical or moral violence to extract confessions, punish the guilty, frighten opponents, or satisfy hatred, is contrary to respect for the human person and for human dignity.
2298. In times past, cruel practices were commonly used by legitimate governments to maintain law and order, often without protest from the Pastors of the Church, who themselves adopted in their own tribunals the prescriptions of Roman law concerning torture. Distressing as these facts are, the Church always taught the duty of clemency and mercy. She forbade clerics to shed blood. In recent times it has become evident that these cruel practices are [esse] neither necessary for public order, nor in conformity with the legitimate rights of the human person. On the contrary, these practices lead to ones even more degrading. It is necessary to work for their abolition. We must pray for the victims and their tormentors.
Loooong fascinating article, “Torture and corporal punishment as a problem in Catholic theology” (no, I haven’t read the whole thing yet):
http://www.rtforum.org/lt/lt119.html
Posted by molleth on July 23, 2008 at 4:42 pm
Wow…great statement…I look forward to reading that article.
Maureen, that is so true: in order to torture, you must turn the other person into an Other.
Posted by Jae on July 24, 2008 at 12:09 am
I have you seen the movie “Rendition”? With Reese Witherspoon and Jake Gylenhall? The idea that torture doesn’t necessarily extract the truth is touched on here.
I never knew exactly what waterboarding was til they showed what actually happens.
Posted by Rachel on July 24, 2008 at 6:39 am
Oh Molly, I just saw the waterboarding video. Shocking
It makes me want to cry to think of so many people blissfully in the dark, convinced we are a morally superior country.
Posted by Dulce Domum on July 25, 2008 at 12:47 am
I am always consistently amazed by the lack of consistency in pro-life debates. My instinct is that for many right-wring Americans their views on abortion are intrinsically linked to their culture and politics, rather than being a more holistic, Christian view of life. So that being both pro-life and pro-war and pro-torture is not seen as being inconsistent….of course the same can be said for left wingers, how can you be both a pacifist (because you respect human life) and be pro-abortion? Inconsistencies come from political belief and obeying particular cultural norms, a Christian world view is more holistic and doesn’t really fit into party politics.
Posted by molleth on July 25, 2008 at 9:25 am
Agreed…but then, being inconsistant is part of being human…we often have a hard time integrating our theoretical ideals with real life. I think most people, if they’re anything like me, aren’t doing it purposely but, rather, are completely unaware.
Posted by Jason Dye on July 26, 2008 at 9:41 am
wonderfully said!
Posted by meanderings « emerging toward something redeeming on July 26, 2008 at 3:28 pm
[...] Being pro-life means I’m anti-torture. especially liked this bit from the end of the article : “Why do we unanimously frown on the Chinese government for torturing Christians, but don’t say much against our president when he approves torturing non-Christians? If we, as followers of Christ, only stand up for the dignity of life when it’s our own, we’ve missed the radical nature of the Gospel altogether. [...]
Posted by Kasey "Rahab" on July 26, 2008 at 6:34 pm
……
Posted by Kasey "Rahab" on July 26, 2008 at 6:45 pm
Opppss!!! Other comment was deminsihed by accident….so…I’ll share in one sentence of importance to God. It mentions of in the book of Jeremiah that God knew us before we were born; therefore, it is of great importance to God and ourselves to fufill the “Gift Given” and Not destroy it at out own free will.
My Son is 21 years of age– a brillant son to say the least….attended Oxfords-New College he did this past year studying Philosophy/Juris Pruedence–brilliant scholar he is….a Gift from God in simple terms….so thankful I am that I choose Life–Surprise!!! The emmense Blessings of choosing Life!!!
A small prayer although too mention for any (ANY) woman who choose another direction–one that I can only hope for them a healing that God will forgive them for a saddness of a loss that could have brought them emmense happinesses involved…Angels of God….these precious children are….and should have the right too live!
Posted by Lydia on July 28, 2008 at 1:04 pm
We are such either/or people. If I am prolife I must be anti torture. Of course I am anti torture! How silly. But we are speaking from our comfy Western sofa’s.
What if YOUR child was being held hostage and the person caught knew where the child was but did not care if they died or not at your hand? They get to be with 72 virgins when they die. So the ONLY thing to get them to talk is torture. I hope each one of you would alllow your child to endure tortured instead of the kidnapper.
Yes, we were so horrible to invade Iraq. Why should we care about the children who were put through human meat grinders there? As a matter of fact, I thought we went there for oil and to make Cheney richer. Then why is gas so high right now? Where is all the oil?
I suppose it would have been better to wait until Saddam got another foot hold in another country befre we invaded but then, causualties would have been worse.
You 20-30 somethings need to grow up. Some sort of limited war with terrorists will be a way of life for the rest of your life till the Lord comes. If you think Islam is going to fade away, you are kidding yourselves.
What good Christians you are as you turn the other cheek instead of torturing to save innocent lives. When it is YOUR family member or even YOUR child at stake, lets see how pious you are then.
Did it ever occur to you that letting the enemy know we are against torture guarantees more lives lost? We are called to be ‘wise’, too.
Posted by Good Christians Should Torture (Muslims): One Commenter Speaks « adventures in mercy on July 28, 2008 at 1:42 pm
[...] Should Torture (Muslims): One Commenter Speaks Posted on July 28, 2008 by molleth A comment from the Being Pro-Life Means I’m Anti-Torture, where I expressed why I do not think [...]
Posted by Bill Moyers on Torture and Democracy, and Slice of Alaskan Life « adventures in mercy on July 29, 2008 at 6:27 pm
[...] This podcast discusses everything we’ve been talking about on the last two torture posts (here, and then here), and more. If you have the time and interest, don’t miss it. [Click the [...]
Posted by M4husband on July 30, 2008 at 7:28 pm
This is a fine piece. My wife reads here often and I ended up here at just the right moment. As one who is slowly becoming “pro-illeglization of abortion,” I have always been against abortion, I am thankful to know that there are thoughtful voices who lift up what it means to stand for life. To stand against abortion on moral grounds demands that we oppose torture, elective wars- as Rumsflied called Iraq, the power of the state to take life to show that taking a life is wrong, and all the other ways that God’s creation is robbed of their value and purpose. I am voting for Obama and am all to well skilled at defending him for some views that drive me nuts. But at the end of the day, I can do my part to stop abortions with either McCain or Obama. The same cannot be said about torture, the environment or elective war with people who had nothing to do with 9/11. Christians ought not vote for Obama or McCain ebcause of their views. They are both deeply flawed. But for the soul of our country, I feel we need an intervention at the moment. And those who created this mess are not the ones we can depend on to fix it.
Posted by molleth on July 31, 2008 at 9:19 am
Wow…thanks for commenting, M4husband.
Posted by Scott M on August 9, 2008 at 8:35 am
Lydia, I hate to burst your bubble, but this is hardly a “20-30 something” issue. I’m a 40-something myself and I know plenty of other 40-somethings (and 50-somethings and 60-somethings), Christian and not, who have issues with our country employing torture and a policy of preemptive war. And I also know 20-30 somethings who support one or both ideas. People don’t generally break down into neat categories with clear boundaries. I would call your attempt to push those with a view different from your own into such a category a way (and a very common and widely used way) of ‘othering’ those with whom you disagree. And nothing good ever comes from following that path.
It is a particularly treacherous path for those who desire to follow Jesus of Nazareth. For we hold that each and ever human being is an eikon of the Holy God, each person we encounter is also our neighbor, and we are to love — that is willfully act for the good — of each and every individual person we meet. Ours is not a faith of generalities. We do not love ‘mankind’ in general. Rather, ours is a faith of particularities. We love this man whom we see. We love this woman. We love this child. And in order to do that, we must learn to actually see them, not as a member of some group or category or tribe — as some generality, but as the particular eikon they truly are. We must learn to see not just some amorphous, general need. We must learn to discern this person’s particular need and what we must do to meet it.
Obviously, this is thoroughly incompatible with torture. I cannot love someone and torment their body, mind, or spirit. If I am willfully engaged in destroying any aspect of a person, I cannot at the same moment be willfully acting for their good. If I view someone as the enemy — as the other, I cannot simultaneously perceive them as my neighbor. But it goes well beyond torture. Any time we ‘other’ particular humans with whom we interact, which is what the creation of categories like ‘20-30 somethings’ does, we are doing this in a small way. And I am becoming convinced that way of life is deadly for our souls.
I do it as well. So I ask for your prayers for my soul. I am weak and often do not wish to truly see my neighbor.
Posted by Random acts of blogging « stumbling after Jesus on August 13, 2008 at 11:58 am
[...] like this post, and I wonder if the Church is ready to embrace a more holistic approach to being [...]
Posted by Bret on August 13, 2008 at 7:50 pm
I am pro life as well…it really bothers me that democrats have rallied to fund the murder of babies via $300 million to Planned Parenthood every year.
I am pro life and it really bothers me that the presumed Democratic presidential nominee actuall voted AGAINST a ban on LIVE BIRTH ABORTIONS.
I am pro life too, and it upsets me when torture occurs, but at least those people were murdered in the womb of their mothers.
Posted by Demond Sanders on December 17, 2008 at 5:00 pm
TheNormalMiddle is correct. We ARE picking and choosing whose lives to protect. That’s the whole point. We are choosing to protect the innocent and not to protect the guilty (convicted murderers). That’s why I can be pro-life and support a fairly and correctly instituted death penalty. (Used only with certainty and without racial bias).
We protect the innocent by taking a stand against abortion. We also protect the innocent by supporting what some call “torture.” I believe the Bible speaks very clearly in support of the death penalty and of the right of the state to protect its citizens with the threat or use of violence.