I honestly never thought we’d see such a thing in our country – not yet anyway – but I sense what’s occurring in this election is a recklessness and abandonment of rationality that has preceded the voluntary surrender of liberty and security in other places. I can’t help but observe that even some conservatives are caught in the moment as their attempts at explaining their support for Barack Obama are unpersuasive and even illogical.
There is a cult-like atmosphere around Barack Obama, which his campaign has carefully and successfully fabricated, which concerns me. The messiah complex. Fainting audience members at rallies. Special Obama flags and an Obama presidential seal. A graphic with the portrayal of the globe and Obama’s name on it, which adorns everything from Obama’s plane to his street literature. Young school children singing songs praising Obama. Teenagers wearing camouflage outfits and marching in military order chanting Obama’s name and the professions he is going to open to them. An Obama world tour, culminating in a speech in Berlin where Obama proclaims we are all citizens of the world. I dare say, this is ominous stuff.
But beyond the elites and the media, my greatest concern is whether this election will show a majority of the voters susceptible to the appeal of a charismatic demagogue. This may seem a harsh term to some, and no doubt will to Obama supporters, but it is a perfectly appropriate characterization.
I saw this article on a friend of mine’s blog (go there for the full text). Hum. Nothing like an election year to bring out strong disagreements. Which is another way of saying that my disagreement with the above quoted article is, cough, cough, strong. I don’t care if someone can’t stand Obama, but for God’s sake, please stick with the actual issues already!
I’m sure I could clean up the following response I gave, but here it is, rough and unedited:
I wish the folks heading up the fear-mongering would take the plank out of their own sides eyeball before throwing a fit over the mote in their neighbors.
Under Bush and Ashcroft, we experienced the most invasive act (the “Patriot” act) against our liberties as Americans. But, since they were “good guys” (because if you are a conservative and a Christian, you get a good guy pass and we’ll follow you like blind sheep), we don’t blink an eye. So the writer of the above article can even say something like, “…what’s occurring in this election is a recklessness and abandonment of rationality that has preceded the voluntary surrender of liberty and security in other places.” [without realizing just how applicable his words are toward the Bush regime]!
It seems odd to me for the writer to chide Obama supporters for not being rational. How rude, first of all. We assume that anyone who likes Obama is doing so for foolish reasons, because anyone employing logic wouldn’t like him!? Goodness. That is arrogant and divisive argumentation. The author brushes off the idea that people may have well-thought out reasons for agreeing Obama, and broad-brushes Obama’s supporters as weak followers of charisma. How insulting. The message comes across loud and clear: “People who use their brains would NEVER vote for Obama.” Arrogance to the extreme.
What happened under Bush administration (and the relative quiet acceptance from Christian conservative America) does NOT give us any room to boast about our powers of rationality. And while someone may not like Obama, let’s not stoop to promoting arguments that are based on fear-mongering and arrogant dismissals.
If you think I wrote the above because I’m an Obama supporter, it may surprise you to know that I’m not planning to vote for Obama. I’ve decided to go third party, actually, and am really enjoying everything I read from Nader. I know he (or whichever third party candidate I go for) doesn’t have a chance. But I’m going to enjoy voting for someone who I would actually like to see in the White House. Kind of a novel idea.
Okay, now you can yell at me for not getting on the Obama-is-Evil bandwagon. 
For further reading, check this fine piece of chewymom writing out: Intelligent People Disagree
Posted by Fred on October 28, 2008 at 9:07 am
Like you, I’ll probably vote third party. I’m sick and tired of all the name calling on both sides. My son is an Obama supporter and he has carefully thought out the reasons why (he doesn’t agree with Obama on every isue, but has decided that he would be the best one for the good of the nation). I have also heard the implications that McCain supporters are all pro-war, pro-torture, pro-rich at the expense of the poor, etc.
This has really been going on since the early days of this country, but what is really sad is the division between Christians, people who should realize that we are family and have the most important thing in common. Nothing should intrude on that.
Posted by Jamie Holts on October 28, 2008 at 9:08 am
You know, I have to tell you, I really enjoy this blog and the insight from everyone who participates. I find it to be refreshing and very informative. I wish there were more blogs like it. Anyway, I felt it was about time I posted, Ive spent most of my time here just lurking and reading, but today for some reason I just felt compelled to say this.
Posted by Amy on October 28, 2008 at 9:10 am
I gasped at the title! It didn’t “sound” like you, and of course it wasn’t. Your response is one of the most well-reasoned and rational rebuttals I’ve read anywhere to the hard-right screaming I see everywhere. I’m a political moderate who has been angry at the placidly accepted monarchy in our current administration, and it’s good to see thinking people responding calmly to the fearmongering. Well done!
Posted by Jamie Holts on October 28, 2008 at 9:30 am
I found your site on technorati and read a few of your other posts. Keep up the good work. I just added your RSS feed to my Google News Reader. Looking forward to reading more from you down the road!
Posted by tonia on October 28, 2008 at 9:36 am
amen. i am so tired of the assumption that anyone supporting obama is not smart enough to see through his charisma.
lydia mentioned this on my blog a few days ago, and i so agree with her. i bought the hysteria last election and voted for Bush last time – a decision i’ve regretted every day for four years.
i’m not buying the fear-mongering this go round.
yesterday i read that anyone who votes for obama is sinning (due to his abortion policies.) i’d really like to know why it’s a sin to vote for obama and not a sin if i vote for a man who supports torturing human beings.
*sigh*
Posted by Maureen E on October 28, 2008 at 10:27 am
No yelling here. I’m thinking I’ll go third party too, partly because my state is NOT a swing state so my vote isn’t going to affect the election terribly one way or another. But the administration we’ve had the last eight years makes me sick and the shrill anti-Obama arguments make me sicker. I’ve had to practically stop reading one of the blogs I usually enjoy because almost every post is anti-Obama. It’s sad to me that people who say they support democracy and freedom feel they have to smear supporters of the other candidate so thoroughly.
Posted by Rachel on October 28, 2008 at 10:32 am
I agree with you Molly.
~ a HUGE Obama supporter in VA ~
Posted by Julia on October 28, 2008 at 10:45 am
Molly, I don’t know any conservative or Christian who has given Bush a pass. What we have done is licked our burned fingers and tried to find real conservatives locally. That is what I love about the freedoms in our Constitution and Bill of Rights.
I agree we should be careful about painting each other with too broad a brush. Elections are all about policy and ideology, right? We vote for someone if we like what they stand for.
That’s why I couldn’t vote for someone who allows the torture of innocent human beings. Letting infants who survive abortion die painfully and alone with no medical intervention is not something I want to see my President work to keep as some kind of “right”. It’s anti-life. The women who have to live with what has happened to their babies are victims also…there is no upside to this.
Having a President who holds such a view about life would have an impact on our entire nation. When he nationalizes health care…who do you think would be the first cut from those government funds? Life support? Forget about it…too expensive for the taxpayer. Terminal cancer? Let’s just end your misery now and save the taxpayer money.
The way our society looks at life and death is inherent in our leadership.
While it may be enjoyable to imagine a Nader in the White House, the reality of allowing a culture of death into the White House may be less enjoyable.
My arguments against Obama are meant to be a reasonable discussion, because I know many people who are voting for him are reasonable and intelligent.
We are all trying to get through the filters we see and hear everyday to get to the truth…so I appreciate you letting me comment on your blog.
Posted by Junelle on October 28, 2008 at 10:48 am
I already voted for Obama.
I am not sure I will have very many friends/family members after this election, it is so emotionally charged. My own father called me “a flaming liberal” for even having an opinion other than the *right one*… it is disturbing.
I am struggling with the whole notion of having a Christian view in the Republican party (emails coming in from Focus on the Family last night and my ladies ministry filled with language that was incredibly disturbing). I think it will be good to have the election over with…people are losing their rational minds about the whole thing.
Junelle
Posted by Kari on October 28, 2008 at 10:50 am
With all due respect, and my respect for both you, Molly, and you, Tonia, is great…
HUGE difference between killing unborn babies and McCain. (And that article does not say McCain supports torturing people.)
How about a man who votes against medical care for babies born alive during abortions?
How about a man who does not even support continued federal funding for currently operating Crisis Pregnancy Centers! And considering he’ll federally fund just about anything else – that’s telling. (nrlc dot org)
He’s promised to sign an act which will make partial birth abortions legal again, nullify parental notification acts (so once again the doctor can’t give my daughter an aspirin but he could perform an invasive medical procedure without my knowledge), and require tax-payer funded abortions on demand. Your tax dollars and mine at work. I don’t want my tax dollars used that way. Period.
Put my daughters in dangerous situations and watch the mama bear in me come out. I will talk a blue streak if I think there is any possibility talking will help get my daughters out of that situation. Millions more babies are about to be put in dangerous situations and their mama’s won’t speak for them. So many men and women are doing so instead. That’s why they’re talking. That’s why I’m talking.
And Molly, if you are so concerned about our liberties, *why* would you vote third party rather than a candidate who can actually win this year? Have you considered the liberties at stake under an Obama administration?
Posted by Alaina on October 28, 2008 at 10:55 am
Molly,
As a person who supports Obama because I have researched and decided he is the better choice, I appreciate this critique that you offer. I have been very frustrated by the pervasive idea that because I am young I have been somehow ’swayed’ by Obama instead of making a choice and really researching my decision. With tonia, I have regretted voting for Bush every day for the last four years – so this time, I really did my homework.
Julia,
I agree with the fact that torturing innocent humans is not acceptable. But is torturing prisoners of war acceptable? Or letting genocide continue to happen in Darfur and other areas? I understand the argument about being anti-torture and for the right to life for all people. But the argument has 2 sides. Neither party is really ‘pro-life’ if pro life means being pro-LIFE in all of life’s forms. We have killed countless innocent people in Iraq for years now…when does that end?
Posted by Denise on October 28, 2008 at 10:58 am
Hooray Molly! I agree with you. I too will be voting third party or (gasp!) abstaining.
This article today points to a lot of the things you brought up:
BUSH EMBRACES OBAMA’S SOCIALISM
http://www.newswithviews.com/Kincaid/cliff264.htm
A few excerpts:
“The problem for the Republican ticket of John McCain and Sarah Palin is that their fellow Republican, President George W. Bush, may do more damage to American-style capitalism during his last months in office than Obama could ever do in a four-year term as president.
“In short, we already have a socialist president—and his name is Bush.”
“The irony is that the same socialist process begun by the Republican president, Bush, could be dramatically expanded under a Democratic President, Obama…”
I liked this very brief article today too:
The Only Choice on November 4th
http://www.lewrockwell.com/rockwell/only-choice-nov4.html
“we do have the freedom not to vote. No one has yet drafted us into the voting booth. I suggest that we exercise this right not to participate. It is one of the few rights we have left. Nonparticipation sends a message that we no longer believe in the racket they have cooked up for us, and we want no part of it.”
I’m amazed at the number of people I’ve talked with who plan not to vote in the presidential race. They just can’t do it with a clear conscience. And these are people from both parties who have faithfully voted their entire life, including my 79-year-old neighbor!
With the election only seven days away, I think this is a good quote-of-the-week for me:
“During an election year it is important to remember that Christianity at its core is neither liberal nor conservative but radical. It involves being a “living sacrifice.” It thrives on scandalous love. The Christian is to be Christ’s servant in the world. It is just that simple. Thankfully, this servanthood can take place regardless of who becomes our next president!” – Dave Black
Posted by maura on October 28, 2008 at 11:04 am
Oh for pete’s sake. That essay is ludicrous – Obama’s logo is obviously a sunrise (the globe has blue water with landmasses all over it) and the “Obama flag” people are so worried about is actually the flag for the state of Ohio (it’s kind of like an American flag – with a big “O” on it).
Posted by Kari on October 28, 2008 at 11:30 am
Alaina,
Not exactly countless.
Since they beginning of the Iraq war, the civilian body count is estimated to be between 88,656 and 96,766. And that includes Iraqi people killing Iraqi people.
In a year, in the United States alone, some ONE MILLION babies are murdered in the womb. (Statistics for 2006 are 1.37 million.)
And just imagine what Senator Obama’s signature on the Freedom Of Choice Act will do for that number.
In 2006 then,
There were about 2700 abortions each day.
So in approximately 36 DAYS, our nation alone murdered about nearly 97,000 babies – the total of all Iraqis killed since the beginning of the war – many by each other.
And we did it all over again the next 36 days.
And the next 36.
And we’ll do it all again in the next 36.
97,000 babies murdered every 36 DAYS.
Who is losing out the most?
Posted by Julia on October 28, 2008 at 11:32 am
Alaina, your questions are based on the premise that the world can be made into a utopia…no war, no fighting, free lunch.
Is this the appeal of Obama? I know he’s made a lot of promises to that effect–oceans will recede and all that–but, dictators have been promising that for centuries.
How exactly would the genocide in Darfur be stopped? Especially if the men with guns and machetes don’t want to stop killing? Would Obama sit them down and give them a good talking-to? Or would he choose to kill the murderers to save the innocent.
And who is the “we” that has killed countless of innocent people in Iraq? American soldiers are saving the innocent Iraqis–terrorist insurgents are killing them.
It is not inconsistent to believe that allowing babies to live and allowing some water to trickle up the nose of a murdering terrorist so he’ll give up his list of suicide bombers…is pro-life.
Posted by Nathan Bubna on October 28, 2008 at 11:40 am
Amen. Neither the Dems or Repubs are truly pro-life. They both fund major corporations and wars with trillions while people dying for lack of cheap medicines, food and clean water who could all be saved for amounts in the mere dozens of billions are essentially ignored.
Clinton sat by during genocide in Rwanda, Bush sat by during genocide in Darfur. I despise both major parties for their callous indifference to life. And really, what does a McCain vote get you? He’s losing terribly. He wouldn’t promise to appoint justices who’d overturn Roe v. Wade in the 3rd debate. He doesn’t talk at all about reducing the motivations and demand for abortions. All he buys is a slim chance of winning, which gives a slim chance of overturning Roe v Wade, which only returns the legal issue to the states, many of which will continue to keep abortion legal.
If abortion is your paramount concern, you damn well ought to be voting for Chuck Baldwin of the Constitution party. He’s a hellufa lot more anti-abortion than McCain is.
Personally, i am also voting Nader. I disagree with him on plenty, but i agree with him on more than any other candidate. He would at least fight the corporate greed that leaves single mothers in poverty. He wouldn’t blanch at government provided contraceptives to reduce unwanted pregnancy. He understands that for a tiny fraction of what we spend on wars, we could buy the goodwill of the billions of Africans and Asians who need clean water, food, and cheap medicines.
If you want to claim to be pro-life, then you need to be about more than just overturning Roe v. Wade. That won’t even stop abortions in the US, much less save the many times more people dying yearly from easily and cheaply preventable causes. It disgusts me that we spend so much on saving corporations who made stupid investments and fighting to secure democracy and capitalism in one meager country, when millions people are DYING for lack of food, clean water and cheap medicine. It disgusts me that Christians balk at legislation that funds contraceptives, as if reducing non-marital sex is more important than reducing unwanted pregnancies and HIV transmission.
What kind of priorities are those? That is an abandonment of logic, in my mind. (Please forgive the arrogance of that last sentence, but it is how i feel.)
Posted by April on October 28, 2008 at 11:44 am
Hmmm… I think politics are generally polarizing, especially at this stage of the game. Most of my friends — literally 99% — are raging liberals and most of what I hear from them is the implication that people who support McCain obviously support torture, are in love with Bush, and have no care for the poor, the disenfranchised, etc. I hear this at my liberal church, too. It’s not just the conservatives being narrow-minded.
I’m voting McCain and, honestly, question the judgement of many friends who will vote for Obama. I don’t think they have really thought about the issues much. But they think the same about me.
We’ll still be friends next week. We just won’t discuss politics very often.
Posted by tonia on October 28, 2008 at 11:51 am
kari,
hey girl.
you caught me expressing my frustration….i don’t want to get in a big debate online about this issue – mainly because it’s too complicated and charged.
just to say, i totally and completely respect that someone can’t vote for obama based on his abortion policies. i get that and i wouldn’t try to convince anyone otherwise. i know your decision will be based on prayer, wisdom, and conviction. but i would like to have the same respect afforded my choice – even if someone disagrees (speaking to the larger blog world here, not you.)
of course i agree with you on the life issues and it gives me no pleasure to vote for someone who protects abortion rights. but i voted for bush because he was “pro-life” and then watched in horror. mccain has done nothing to show me he is different. (and all due respect to molly *grin*- i am terrified by sarah palin.)
my take on the abortion fight: we’ve been trying the same thing for 30+ years. it’s not working and we are tolerating a lot of other bad policies ( and imo ) immoralities in the name of supporting an anti-abortion party.
i just can’t do it any longer.
jim wallis sums up what “pro-life” means to me:
“Choosing life” is a constant biblical theme, so I will choose candidates who have the most consistent ethic of life, addressing all the threats to human life and dignity that we face — not just one. Thirty-thousand children dying globally each day of preventable hunger and disease is a life issue. The genocide in Darfur is a life issue. Health care is a life issue. War is a life issue. The death penalty is a life issue. And on abortion, I will choose candidates who have the best chance to pursue the practical and proven policies which could dramatically reduce the number of abortions in America and therefore save precious unborn lives, rather than those who simply repeat the polarized legal debates and “pro-choice” and “pro-life” mantras from either side.
again, it’s okay if you don’t see it this way. i respect that.
i voted a few days ago and feel absolutely at peace about it.
God bless
Posted by Julia on October 28, 2008 at 11:55 am
…er, I don’t think corporations are responsible for leaving single mothers in poverty. I believe that started with the irresponsible men who got them pregnant in the first place. And who cares if the government hands out free condoms?
It has not shown one iota of difference in the abortion rate.
I share your frustration, Nathan–that bailout was the single worst step into socialism since the ‘New Deal’.
But again, I ask…how exactly would ‘billions’ buy the goodwill of African warlords bent on acquiring money and power? We gave lots of goodies to North Korea and not only are the North Koreans still starving, but their “Dear Leader” gets to threaten their southern neighbors with nuclear annihilation.
…abandonment of logic, indeed.
Posted by Sarah B. on October 28, 2008 at 12:20 pm
Delurking to say a big fat thanks.
Posted by Julia on October 28, 2008 at 12:22 pm
“Life issues”?
If life is an issue for Obama, why does he vote for infanticide?
Which candidate has the best chance of reducing the number of abortions in this country?
The one who is pro-life.
Posted by Scott on October 28, 2008 at 12:59 pm
People,
That babies born alive issue is just a canard. Obama has stated emphatically that he thinks its evil and that existing law protects babies born alive. Is he pro-choice, yes. Does he favor killing babies born alive? Ridiculous.
The lady who pushes this meme in Illinois, Jill Stanek, is a bit of nutter and her claims of having found dead babies in wastebaskets in a Chicago hospital have never been proven. Here are a few links for those of you willing to get your head out of James Dobson’s butt and actually read some of the opposing side. (My experience so far this election is the right wingers are not willing to actually read the other side). So prove me wrong.
http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/blog/2008/08/21/jill-stanek-admits-mistake-chicago-tribune-obama-abortion-record
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chicago/chi-zorn_21aug21,0,6556075.column
http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_columnists_ezorn/2008/08/bornalive.html
http://www.archpundit.com
On the one hand, I am so ready for this election to be over. On the other, I am a follower of Jesus who can’t wait to cast his vote for Obama on Tuesday.
Thanks for your reply Molly.
Scott
Posted by Alaina on October 28, 2008 at 1:08 pm
Julia,
And how exactly can innocent baby killing stop – even if there is a law? This is not meant to be facetious…it is meant to be an honest question. I am not convinced that even IF there was an anti-abortion law that it would really help. I don’t believe a government policy is the answer…
but clearly, people are now demonstrating here what Molly was talking about…getting so fired up over the issues.
I don’t believe Obama is the savior in any way at all. But overall, I think he’s the better choice. You can’t convince me otherwise.
The Iraq war numbers are debatable…and yes, there have been more abortions, I’ll grant that. I did not bring up the point to say one issue was somehow worse or more pressing than another issue. I brought up the point to say – if we are about life, then we will support all of life, not just some life. If we were really pro-life then none of the candidates would do anything. But the truth is, we have to take what we believe to be the best option. There is no perfect choice…there just isn’t. That is life this side of eternity. We are called to live a higher calling as people of faith – and the government cannot mandate that – we have to choose it for ourselves. Period.
Posted by jill on October 28, 2008 at 1:30 pm
I am no fan of abortion, but I’d hazard a guess that no one (especially no WOMAN is). Tonia, I am so appreciative of the Jim Wallis quote that you copied here. I think it well summarizes what I’ve been feeling about this issue for some time. I would encourage anyone who feels strongly about the abortion issue, one way or the other, to inform themselves about the who, why, how, when, and under what
circumstances of abortion, not just in our country but all over the world. I truly believe that in order to reduce or hopefully eliminate abortion, we cannot just legislate against it but need to help empower women so they are not being victimized sexually or are put in positions where unintended pregnancies are prone to occur. Someone could (and likely will) take this as having a “liberal agenda”, but I found this to be very informative: http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/sharing.pdf
Women and families are also the victims of abortion. Without adequately addressing that fact, we will never prevent it. Abortion is not only a moral issue, it is a socio-political one that disproportionately afflicts the poor and dis-empowered and unchecked patriarchy plays a large role here, too.
In general, I have found friends on both sides of the issues to be relatively well-informed and I don’t believe that the majority of people on “the other side” aren’t behaving rationally, but having read many publications from both the far left and far right during this campaign it seems to me that the fear-mongering has reached a fever pitch from the Republican side. I just hope that on November 5th, people will drop the incendiary language and remember that the majority of us really do have similarly good intentions for this country.
(And like Molly, I mostly agree with Nader on the major issues)
Molly, as always, thanks for opening up a timely and important discussion!
Posted by Nathan Bubna on October 28, 2008 at 1:45 pm
Julia, you’re right, corporate greed doesn’t leave single mothers in poverty directly, but they do encourage a culture of consumerism and debt-as-money, which ultimately hurts everyone but them. Many are led into and kept in poverty by things like predatory lending, high risk mortgages, credit cards, and payday loans. Don’t kid yourself that you can just wave the words “individual responsibility” at these things and absolve the fat cats of blame. We fight not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers and rulers of this dark and present evil age.
As for “giving money to warlords” and dictators, no, that is stupid. There are fantastic aid groups out there who don’t just hand over cash for loyalty. Living Water, Nothing But Nets, Habitat for Humanity, Kiva, and on and on. Many groups who KNOW and have PROVEN that they can responsibly target funds at the problems without exacerbating them.
Posted by Kari on October 28, 2008 at 2:01 pm
It’s simply not true that the Pro–Life movement has not made any gains in the past thirty years – let alone during the Bush administration.
First there are the highly significant nominatons to the Supreme Court.
Under President Bush
the Born-Alive Infants Protection Act was passed,
the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act was passed,
the Unborn Victims of Violence Act was passed, as well as numerous other pro-life laws and policies.
At the state level hundreds of laws — parental notification, informed consent, waiting periods, curbs on tax funding of abortion, and others – have passed.
There is data out there to prove that these measures have resulted in fewer abortions.
And with the stroke of Obama’s pen signing the Freedom of Choice Act, many of those state laws will be null and void (federal trumps state law).
And given the cuts he’ll have to make and the fact that he does not support federal funds going to Crisis Pregnancy Centers, there will be less money to fight abortion with the kind of help I believe is absolutely inherent in the fight – practical daily help to support women who choose life.
Vote as you will. But please don’t spread the myth that we haven’t gotten anywhere.
Posted by Nathan Bubna on October 28, 2008 at 2:17 pm
Oh, and i would love to see some statistics or studies on the idea that contraceptives (not just condoms) don’t reduce the abortion rate. Fewer unwanted pregnancies means fewer abortions. Contraceptives and their users are not perfect, but i’m not about to sit back and wait for one single magic perfect solution when innocent lives are at stake. We need to work on all angles of the equations here, not just the supply side ones.
Posted by E on October 28, 2008 at 2:17 pm
You should retitle this post “My Nadir of Despair.”
Posted by Nathan Bubna on October 28, 2008 at 2:21 pm
I fully agree Kari. That’s just part of why i’m not voting for Obama. He may set back work on the supply side (laws & financing) of abortion dramatically. That said, he at least is making notable noise about work on the demand side of things. If he gets behind the “Pregnant Women Support Act”, i will fear his effect less. Though, i’m still not looking forward to it.
Posted by tonia on October 28, 2008 at 2:27 pm
kari,
forgive me. i did not mean to negate all the hard work and yes, accomplishment, that has been put in by committed abortion foes over the last 30 years.
i think some good issues have been raised here in the comments about what it means to have a consistent life ethic. i disagree with comparing numbers as a decision making process (more babies have been killed than innocent Iraqi civilians, etc.) as i think every life is precious. i would like to see the complete abolishment of all abortion, war, torture, starvation, rape, and poverty. i know i won’t see that in my lifetime
, but i took each of these factors into account when i made my choice.
i found this information helpful – at least as a counter to the accusations i’d been hearing – when I researched the candidates: Matt. 25 network .</a
i respect your opinion and the passion you have for fighting abortion. i hope i have the same passion, but i have always thought the battle can (and should also) be fought outside of legislation. criminalizing abortion is not going to solve the very real problem we have with how we value life and how we help people who need it most. i heartily agree with what jill said in the comments above. in fact, the adoption of our son was born out of the fact that we wanted to make a real and lasting statement that we are against abortion and willing to do what it takes to promote life.
God bless, kari,
tonia
Posted by tonia on October 28, 2008 at 2:28 pm
oh egads. i’m sorry about the faulty html.
Posted by Spasm Dada on October 28, 2008 at 2:50 pm
5 Surely for your lifeblood I will demand a reckoning; from the hand of every beast I will require it, and from the hand of man. From the hand of every man’s brother I will require the life of man. 6 “Whoever sheds man’s blood, By man his blood shall be shed; For in the image of God He made man. (Gen. 9:5-6)So you shall not pollute the land where you are; for blood defiles the land, and no atonement can be made for the land, for the blood that is shed on it, except by the blood of him who shed it. Num. 35:33
Innocent blood must be paid for in blood. It is a biblical mandate and a law of God. Lincoln knew that every drop of blood shed by slaves had to be atoned for in the civil war and the same is true of abortion. This nation is on the train to massive judgements and we will SUFFER because of our selfishness. We will see our children march off to horrible battles on our own soil until every last innocent baby’s life has been accounted for. You can wrangle about which candidate is this and which is that but until massive repentance erupts from the corners of this nation, judgement will NOT be averted. We are so smug in our warm homes here thinking we have become something.
“The Civil War was the day for reckoning for America for the bloodshed of slavery – 600,000 men died in the God’s day of reckoning in America for slavery. If we do not deal with this blood in the courts of man, then it will be dealt with in the court of God ” – Lou Engle – The Call
“We have been the recipients of the choicest bounties of heaven. We have been preserved, these many years, in peace and prosperity. We have grown in numbers, wealth and power, as no other nation has grown. But we have forgotten God. We have forgotten the gracious hand which preserved us in peace, and multiplied and enriched and strengthened us; and we have vainly imagined, in the deceitfulness of our hearts, that all these blessings were produced by some superior wisdom and virtue of our own. Intoxicated with unbroken success, we have become too self-sufficient to feel the necessity of redeeming and preserving grace, too proud to pray to the God that made us! It behooves us, then to humble ourselves before the offended Power, to confess our national sins, and to pray for clemency and forgiveness.” – Abraham Lincoln in 1863
Posted by kimber on October 28, 2008 at 2:56 pm
HOW refreshing!
Finally, a conversation.
Molly, I’ve already voted and it is a first for me for many reasons. I’m excited about this election. I am hopeful, if I can use a tired cliche!
Posted by kimber on October 28, 2008 at 2:58 pm
Wow… I hit enter too soon!
Thanks for your candid and gracious post. Even though we are not voting for the same dude, I respect the way you have come to your decision and how you are extending the same respect to others!
<3,
kimber
Posted by Shauna on October 28, 2008 at 3:33 pm
I’m a registered independent and voted for a third party as well.
I’ve seen just as many McCain/Palin-is evil-and-his-supporters-are-all-idiots” slams coming from Obama supporters, as I have the reverse from McCain supporters. “Palin was brought into the campaign to attract the Stupid Vote,” etc. The Religious Left can be just as obnoxious as the Religious Right. It’s nice when people are able to enthusiastically support their candidate of choice without attacking others who have come to a different conclusion.
Posted by Emily on October 28, 2008 at 3:51 pm
I think we better take care that we aren’t reviling. . . here, there, and everywhere.
Me, I voted for McCain (although my horse didn’t get past the primaries). I live in a swing state, and quite frankly, I disagree totally with the “fundamental change” he wants to bring to America. I’m put off by the media ans self-proclaimed intellectuals too. I think they’ve lost their commonsense.
Posted by molleth on October 28, 2008 at 4:16 pm
http://alifeprofound.wordpress.com/2008/10/28/cynthia-opines-day-35/
Interesting thoughts regarding the pro-life folks who are pro-Obama…
Posted by amberingrose on October 28, 2008 at 4:35 pm
It’s so sad that many (not all) Chrisitans are using the very fact that they are Christians to hide the fact that they can’t ever bring themselves to vote for a black man. So sad…
Posted by E on October 28, 2008 at 4:52 pm
Molly and Everyone:
I’m going to give y’all – beginning and ending with Molly! – one great, indisputable, unarguable reason to vote for McCain/Palin, and not for a third-party candidate like Nader or Bob Barr or Ron Paul, or (of course) for Barack Obama, and that is this: A Democratic Congress with a Democratic President will mean there will be virtually no debate or give and take on legislation. Half of America will have no say-so in what happens during the next 2 and maybe 4 years. As a life-long Federal employee, I can say that the government functions best when Congress does less. :^) If Barack Obama is President, and the Senate and the House have large or veto-proof Democratic majorities, you can kiss your conservative wishes or thoughts or concerns good-bye.
So, before you press that button or push that lever or write in that name for Nader or even Obama, please, please consider what I wrote here and do the one thing possible that might have a bit of a chance of keeping Congress accountable to all Americans, not just liberal Democrats.
My name is E, and I approved this message.
Posted by Julia on October 28, 2008 at 5:11 pm
Scott, babies born alive are not a canard. There was no law to provide infants with life-saving care should they survive an abortion. Obama is on record as saying it should be left to intent of the doctors. He says he doesn’t know when life begins…but, he seems to know when it’s suppose to end. He voted for infanticide.
Alaina, you’re right that there is no perfect choice, and I heartily agree government policy is not the answer.
But, if we are to assume being pro-life is to be against all death, we would have to judge God for His death sentences. Pro-life is not all or nothing…it never has been.
My point in the beginning was that to choose a leader who embraces life has an affect on the country as a whole. To choose a leader who cannot tell when life begins and allows for the death of infants born alive will show up in our laws, our lives and our hearts.
I certainly respect the right to vote our conscience…that conscience will come into play when we are asked by our leaders to give up the old and infirm, the disabled and mentally ill for the good of the State.
A third party vote simply puts Obama in the White House. That is the reality we face.
Posted by molleth on October 28, 2008 at 5:40 pm
More on abortion and Rep/Dem:
This play-by-play, from someone who was involved in the Obama campaign, was really interesting. Here’s a snippet:
They said that if O talks about abortion on the stump, he’s allowing the Religious Right to set the agenda. One of The Three countered that, among his friends, abortion is the one thing holding younger evangelicals back from full-throated support of O. One of O’s staffers said that O does very much want to reduce abortions, and he went on to say that abortions decreased during the Clinton administration and increased during W’s term. The Republicans, quite simply, use abortion as a wedge issue during election years and then do NOTHING (yes, I’m shouting) to reduce abortions.
Full article here:
http://tonyj.net/2008/09/16/abortion/
Posted by molleth on October 28, 2008 at 5:41 pm
E,
You just crack me up.
I approve your approvals.
Posted by Liesl on October 28, 2008 at 5:48 pm
I guess I’m in the minority here in that there is no way I’d be voting for Obama. I’m not going to call him rude names or spread rumors that aren’t true. But because of his character, his morals, his lack of respect for the Bible, and his economic beliefs, I don’t trust him to lead America wisely, especially wisely for Christians and even for hard working people. I do have some fear with him being President. I’m not going to be radical about it or anything but I honestly believe Christian rights to believe and practice our beliefs will most likely be challenged under his administration.
I am surprised at people that despise Bush because we had to go to war but overlook Obama and his views on abortion. They are not equal. God condones necessary war in the Bible but condemns murder. America doesn’t desire to kill innocent civilians, but we do desire to proactively defend ourselves. It’s amazing that no one seems to see that we have actually saved innocent lives in Iraq by being there. Thousands more were being killed under Sadam.
Someone wrote:
It’s so sad that many (not all) Chrisitans are using the very fact that they are Christians to hide the fact that they can’t ever bring themselves to vote for a black man. So sad…
I see no evidence of that at all. Color has absolutely nothing to do with it. And this is a ridiculous assumption. But I do know plenty of Christians who are black and are voting for Obama simply because he’s black yet they don’t approve of abortion or gay marriage,etc.
I also have Christian friends who are setting aside their beliefs because they admit their pocketbook is a bigger concern and feel that Obama would be better for them economically.
Bottom line is that an Obama presidency wouldn’t necessarily be completely bad it could be very detremental to Christians and to middle class hard working people forced to take money they would be giving to charities or saving for their kids college, healthcare, etc. and give it to programs they don’t agree with (federally funded programs, free college, etc.) I would much rather continue to be able to support my widowed mother, the orphans I sponsor, and the missionaries we help – these are the commisions of God!
You don’t not vote Republican because Roe v. Wade hasn’t been overturned. it will take people to change their hearts to eliminate abortion – not government. There is no logic in allowing a candidate though that will allow more abortion. I’ll vote for the guy who has the character to say that abortion is wrong and the character to be tough with enemies when you have to.
America was founded on Godly principles and those principles are being replace by idols of money and sexual immorality. McCain isn’t perfect, but I’ll feel better with him in office religiously, economically, and with national security.
Posted by molleth on October 28, 2008 at 5:55 pm
By the way, everybody, the point of this post wasn’t to say that Obama is great and that McCain isn’t. I personally can’t get on the Obama train. But I can’t get on the McCain train either. I have fundamental problems with both parties (as well as things I really like about both). So I’m just not getting on either one.
But that’s not the point. The POINT, lol, was that, golly gee whiz boy howdy (note the polite and respectful cussing), can’t we be respectful to our friends on the opposite side???
Calling Sarah Palin an idiot, or McCain an old geezer, or Obama a cult-leader, etc, might make us feel better about our polarized position, but it’s just LAME. Go after the issues. But don’t tell everybody that anyone who supports ____ is stupid. Let’s stop with the hoopla already. I’m so sick of it. Some of my favorite blogs are just oozing with the fear-mongering and I’m SO over it already and begging, begging, begging my friends to GO AFTER THE ISSUES, talk about specific issues, talk about specific policies, instead of claiming that the smart/godly/decent people will vote for [insert your candidates name here] and only the foolhardy lowlife scumbags with no IQ will vote for [insert your candidates opponent here].
It’s not so black and white as all that. It really isn’t.
Posted by E on October 28, 2008 at 6:09 pm
It’s not so black and white as all that. It really isn’t.
Obama’s black and white, though, isn’t he? So maybe he’s the one to vote for if a person thinks it’s black and white. Now, if a person thinks it’s black OR white, then I guess they have to vote for Darth Vader or Edgar Winter.
Vote McCain/Palin so you can keep America politically divided, make the networks blow their stacks, make the pollsters hide in shame, and listen to Americans be called “racist!” for the next four years. What fun!
Posted by Alison on October 28, 2008 at 6:25 pm
I’m back from lurking. I also am voting for McCain/Palin–for all the reasons so well stated by E, Julia, and Leisl (sorry if I’m forgetting someone). I find Amberingrose’s comment offensive. I am not racist and neither are any of the other Christians I know who are voting for McCain. Earlier in the campaign, I considered voting for Obama, but as I learned more about his positions I decided to vote for McCain because I agree with him on more of the issues. I would be happy to vote for a black president (or black and white–whatev) if I could support his or her platform more than the opposing major party candidate.
Posted by Rachel on October 28, 2008 at 6:47 pm
Oh Molly, this post, and the respectful discussion going on in the comments, is a lovely example of why I am your number one feminist, Jewish, urban, radical/progressive fan.
Thank you for your words.
Posted by Scott on October 28, 2008 at 8:01 pm
Julia,
I guess you didn’t take my advice and actually read the newspaper articles I linked to. (BIG FAT SIGH). You are absolutely and without any question WRONG about the presence of a law to protect any and all babies born alive. Hey, tell me you don’t like O cuz he’s pro-choice. and I’ll say, I understand. But don’t call him a supporter of infanticide. That’s just a lie. So if you are, in fact, a Christian, please base your criticism on the truth rather than lies. Followers of Jesus owe Obama at least that, even if you won’t be voting for him.
BTW, I have pretty good pro-life cred. I’ve voted pro-life (and rethuglican) my whole life. I have 5 children, one with Down Syndrome. This time I am voting for a president who is smart, cool, rational and willing to surround himself with people who are smarter than himself and actually listen to them. There are these problems. Torture. Endless war. The trashing of the constitution. Human rights. Global Warming and the environment. I am voting for my kids future. I am voting to promote the best possible future for my kids I have right now. And as Molly pointed out earlier I won’t be a tool for the republican party who in fact doesn’t give a rat’s ass about the unborn. Why would they actually work to end the policy that motivates the base and brings out the torches and pitchforks from the churches. But hey, if you wanna be a tool go right ahead. The Repubs will put you right back in the shed and won’t get you out again until four more years from now.
Scott
Posted by molleth on October 28, 2008 at 8:07 pm
Ah, I just love having a feminist, Jewish, urban radical/progressive here… *grins and waves*
I just wanted to take a second and say that while it ticks me off when people are called stupid or ungodly for liking Obama, it EQUALLY torks me when people who don’t like Obama are assumed to be racist. Seems like everytime I check out what’s the political pundits are saying, the pro-Dem ones are constantly jabbering about how the secret inner racism of many whites is what is causing some not to like Obama. Gar. It’s the same thing that drives me nuts about the above quoted article in this post. The article in this post says if you like Obama, you’re an idiot who can’t think. The television show I just saw, and the one the night before, said if you DON’T like Obama, you’re probably a secret racist and you don’t even know it yet.
GOOD GRIEF!
Posted by Scott on October 28, 2008 at 8:26 pm
Liesl,
You said “But because of his character, his morals, his lack of respect for the Bible, and his economic beliefs, I don’t trust him to lead America wisely, especially wisely for Christians and even for hard working people. I do have some fear with him being President. I’m not going to be radical about it or anything but I honestly believe Christian rights to believe and practice our beliefs will most likely be challenged under his administration.”
I don’t even know where to begin. Look. I’ve read both of Obama’s books and pretty much all of his policy positions and speeches. I feel I know how he thinks and what kind of person he is at least as far as It is possible to know from his public statements.
You mentioned his character and his morals. He has been a faithful husband and is a very devoted father. Andrew Sullivan said of him
His opponent, on the other hand, committed adultery, divorced his wife who had recently been disfigured in an accident and married the rich young beer heiress. He called his wife a “c*nt” in front of a reporter. I challenge you to find ONE EXAMPLE of Obama’s “character” and “morality” problem that comes even close to that. He is nothing else if not a “moral” man. (Yes I believe in original sin and all that, I am not speaking theologically). So Liesl – Strike one.
“His lack of respect for the bible.” I only have to say, HUH? Is “respecting” (by Liesl’s understanding) the bible a requirement for a good president. Does McCain, ever the good Episcopalian, respect the bible in the way that you require. (I’ll concede that Palin probably does, buts she’s a religious nutjob). Martin Luther famously said “Better to be ruled by a smart turk than a dumb Christian” (and the last eight years have shown how right he was). Does the constitution set forth this “respect for the bible” you mention. . . . .I didn’t think so. – Strike two
You believe “Christian rights to believe and practice our beliefs will most likely be challenged under his administration.” Wow. Liesl, He has been a very faithful church-goer for twenty years. Doubtless it’s a church you don’t approve of, but still. You think he doesn’t respect the first amendment. Umm. He Does. Read his chapter on faith in “The Audacity of Hope”. Or just read his speech on Faith HERE. He says
Sorry Liesl – Strike three.
Liesl and fellow christians. I will admit that I dearly wish Obama was pro-life (or even not so strongly pro-choice). But the fact is, he has the intellect, the temperament, the pragmatism and yes, the humility, to be a truly great president and I firmly believe he will be one of the greatest presidents ever. And with all that is wrong right now, thats just what we need.
So Christians, can we please please stop the Chicken Littling? You don’t have to vote for him but please cut the guy some slack. I think he’s gonna surprise you.
Scott
Posted by tonia on October 28, 2008 at 8:34 pm
molly,
i agree with you on the race hysteria, but i do think the election will inevitably uncover some of our hidden feelings and assumptions about race.
i found this report/article fascinating: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=96086423
hearing the fear the older woman’s voice broke my heart. i am so anxious to see racial peace in our country.
as always, a great job here.
Posted by molleth on October 28, 2008 at 8:43 pm
Okay, Scott, you’re going to make me re-look at Obama if you keep this up…
Hmmm. Okay, agreed, tonia, agreed. I was surprised at hearing some of the elderly talk about how race is a major factor. It’s so not on my radar screen (as in, the only way I’m racist is in the same way that I’m sexist: as in, I would LOVE to see a non-white person in the White House, just as I would LOVE to see a woman in the White House–lol).
But, you are right: racism is a factor. I think it’s balanced out with sexism though, meaning that our society has just as bad of a track record with women as it does minorities, so Palin’s gender on the ticket perhaps balances out Obama’s race…? I wonder. It would be really interesting to see statistics on both gender and race.
Okay, commercials are over. Off the computer I go (I’m watching Larry King right now, on the election tonight, while doing dishes)…
Posted by Sarah on October 28, 2008 at 9:27 pm
I like Nader too! I respect your choice… I’m taking a different route this election (than voting 3rd party), but I really debated it. Whatever you choose, I really appreciate your level-headedness and gracious spirit.
Posted by Julie G in Ohio on October 28, 2008 at 9:39 pm
Amen! We’re tired of it too.
I voted Libertarian (gasp) and my husband voted for Obama (bigger gasp). Guess we’re going to Hell according to some of our fellow “Christian” friends.
What garbage.
BTW, Jim Wallis is one of my new favorites.
Posted by E on October 29, 2008 at 4:35 am
You assume he actually wrote his two books:
http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/10/who_wrote_dreams_from_my_fathe_1.html
There is much food for thought at the American Thinker Website re: the allegations of voter fraud and other questionable activities by the Obama campaign and supporters. Read the articles before you pull the lever for The Savior.
Posted by E on October 29, 2008 at 4:42 am
The evidence mounts:
Evidence Mounts: Ayers Co-Wrote Obama’s Dreams
http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/10/evidence_mounts_ayers_cowrote.html
IMO, there is enough out there indicating that Obama is stealing this election via voter fraud and illegal campaign contributions that people should not turn a blind eye to this any longer, and the possible or likely Ayers/Obama book connection is just another piece of the puzzle that seems to show that Obama is NOT who he pretends to be. Even Hillary Clinton’s supporters are decrying the illegal caucus tactics Obama used to steal the primary wins from her.
Again, despite the distastefulness of the idea to some or many, the only way to act against this hijacking of the electoral process is to vote McCain/Palin, not third party.
Posted by Yvonne on October 29, 2008 at 4:48 am
You are right! The worst example I found of this irrationality was from James Dobson, you can find it here:
http://focusfamaction.edgeboss.net/download/focusfamaction/pdfs/10-22-08_2012letter.pdf
It made me really, really, really sad.
If someone wants to do something they can on Facebook:
A Christian Bipartisan Rejection of Focus on the Family’s Letter from 2012
Posted by chewymom on October 29, 2008 at 5:02 am
I’m not even touching this thread except to say that here in the deep south, race is absolutely an issue! There are white, lifelong Democrats who will not vote for Obama because of his race. We know them. There are people here who still use the “n” word, who are horrified when a black boy thinks a white girl is pretty, who will not let black people into their homes. So while I would NEVER accuse someone who is voting for a different candidate of being a racist, racism is an issue in my community. And sadly, it is the reason many people are voting the way they are.
Posted by My 2 Cents on October 29, 2008 at 5:57 am
Good discussion! I still don’t know where I will put the X on my ballet.
I come from the conservative of all conservative backgrounds, but have come out of that in the last few years, in part, because I see that the “conservative” politicians are using the abortion lobby as a way to try to keep funds and votes within their party. NOT ONCE have they brought up legislation to change Roe v Wade in 35 years, when they had the justices to do it. So, I am no longer listening to their ways of whipping women into a frenzy on this to get their votes. It is irresponsible. Period.
I know wonderful people who are not republican and they oppose abortion as a means of birth control, as do I. I also oppose a greater cancer: the abortion industry racking up money at the expense of women’s fertility, wombs, and safety. Further, they do little to assist the young women who may need protection from their incestual family members (this is why I do not agree with parental concent–duh!!). If you think this isn’t happening, you need to wake up to the reality of what really goes on in some families. Young women are terrorized by other family members and the ultra-conservatives want to “protect” those family members.
There, I’ve brought you into reality rather than the syrupy soap opera that people want the world to be…So, is abortion a single issue platform for me. NO. people are lying about it and how.
Earlier someone said: “i am so tired of the assumption that anyone supporting obama is not smart enough to see through his charisma.” These are the same words used of Clinton. So, let’s find something real to discuss, rather than petty preferences.
Someone I know wrote down these three issues as why she was voting for McCain (which is her right):
1. His record on abortion.2. His thinking on the Defense of Marriage act and 3. Future Supreme court appointments.
The economy is in the crapper, we have a war in Iraq while Iraq has a budget surplus, our educational system is frought with waste of funds and wasting students’ time and minds…I just think it is time to get off the single issue stuff, given the fact that we cannot control, in a free society, the fact that not everyone will hold our faith. We ALL came here for freedom–not just Christians gaining freedom. AND the true kingdom is not here and now.
Before I leave here for the morning…let’s also remember elections are always dirty and ugly. People do things they think the candidates will “like.” There has always been mud slinging. We need to grow up on all this thinking it’s going to be a clean election. There are humans involved. ‘Nuf said.
I’m just saying. Now, I still don’t know who I will vote for because neither are choir boys…and all the candidates sound very good to me when I actually listen to each one and try not to hear only what I want. OK. Let me have it. I’m ready.
Posted by Scott on October 29, 2008 at 5:59 am
E,
I read that article weeks ago. I actually think Horatio Hornblower wrote Obama’s books, what with the nautical references and all. Since you only read self-confirming sources, I won’t bother with a lengthy reply. I just humbly request for you to start doing a little reading outside of nutter-land and use a little intellectual rigor when you are making arguments.
Thanks
Scott
Posted by Scott on October 29, 2008 at 6:02 am
BTW,
HERE are many of the the way-out-right-wing nutter arguments in one easy read.
Its hilarious.
Scott
Posted by Shauna on October 29, 2008 at 6:13 am
I encourage you to do some fact checking before posting that abortion increased under W.
Posted by Liesl on October 29, 2008 at 6:15 am
Scott,
I replied to your post on your website. However, you are quick to assume that someone who votes McCain doesn’t read “outside of nutter-land and use a little intellectual rigor when making arguments”. That’s assuming and insulting and untrue. I read all sides to be well informed. There are extremists on both sides, I find myself in the middle because I have educated myself. And in the middle leads me to vote McCain. Your insulting manner is exactly what the point of Molly’s blog was about – how we need to avoid this, escpecially as Christians.
Posted by E on October 29, 2008 at 6:31 am
Scott:
I do read outside of Rightwingland. I can’t stand most talk radio, and I was actually leaning toward Obama initially, and stood in line for 3 hours to see and hear him when he came to Dallas this past Spring.
And I find McCain’s pick of Palin to be disheartening (but not nearly as disheartening and ridiculous as Obama’s pick of Biden – good grief!!).
But Obama has shown himself week after week after month after month to be both less than he makes himself out to be, and disingenuous, if not an outright liar, about his beliefs and past associations.
I can’t think of a LESS QUALIFIED person to run for President in my lifetime of voting – and that goes back to the 1970s.
Posted by Scott on October 29, 2008 at 7:15 am
My wife has pointed out that my frequent use of the word “nutter” will probably cause people to not listen to me. As usual, she’s right. I really did engage in that which Molly was criticizing and I apologize.
My only request is to please not be hysterical. By all means don’t vote for Obama if your conscience leads you elsewhere, but he’s not Chtulu incarnate. I have a firm conviction that he is a very good and decent man and as I said before, I think he’s gonna surprise you.
Scott
Posted by E on October 29, 2008 at 7:23 am
I have a firm conviction that he is a very good and decent man and as I said before,
Scott: Thanks for the apology. These topics can bring out our emotions.
Your “firm conviction,” while undoubtedly well-intentioned and perhaps even well-informed, is not sufficient reason IMO for me or anyone else to vote for Obama. It is my “firm conviction” that his comments about his relationship with, and trust in, Jeremiah Wright and William Ayers show Obama to be untrustworthy in much of what he says.
But if he’s gonna surprise me, I hope it’s a pleasant surprise, and that you don’t experience buyer’s remorse.
One … more … week.
Posted by molleth on October 29, 2008 at 8:07 am
One…more…week… is right. Ugh. I’m really trying to be responsible about my vote, but the more I watch of either side, the less interested I become in voting for either of them.
Posted by E on October 29, 2008 at 8:17 am
Here’s your T-Shirt, Molleth:
http://shop.cafepress.com/design/20448931
Posted by The Fat Triplets » Liesl Dissents on October 29, 2008 at 9:42 am
[...] I wrote a fairly scathing comment over at one of my favorite blogs, Adventures in Mercy. She replied in a comment over here instead of over there. I thought I would just publish her comment front and center. The post she was responding to and where I have written several comments is HERE. [...]
Posted by molleth on October 29, 2008 at 10:02 am
On McCain and abortion, from a (pro-Constitution party) blogger that I usually don’t have much in common with:
http://buriedtreasurebooks.com/weblog/?p=2509
(thanks, tonia).
Posted by molleth on October 29, 2008 at 10:05 am
A secular feminist leader talks about her admiration for Palin’s intellect and :
http://mommylife.net/archives/2008/10/ms_editor_sarah.html
Very interesting!
Posted by molleth on October 29, 2008 at 10:28 am
http://mommylife.net/archives/2008/10/democrats_inves.html
Interestinger and interestinger…
Posted by E on October 29, 2008 at 10:34 am
Even his own supporters and party acknowledge and state that Barack Obama is a hypocrite:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/28/campbell.brown.obama/index.html#cnnSTCText
On this issue today, former Sen. Bob Kerrey of Nebraska, an Obama supporter, writes in The New York Post, “a hypocrite is a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue — who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings. And that, it seems to me, is what we are doing now.”
Posted by E on October 29, 2008 at 10:38 am
And the Washington Post – no friend of conservatives – is finally reporting on the campaign donation fraud that Obama is engaging in and/or aiding and abetting:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/28/AR2008102803413_pf.html
Some persons and/or some countries are buying and financing Obama’s Presidency, and it’s never going to be known who that is, if Obama can help it.
Maybe I’m a “nutter” about this, but I can’t recall seeing anything like this in past Presidential campaigns. It’s breathtaking.
Posted by Bryan Riley on October 29, 2008 at 10:59 am
I think the concern I have is how much faith we put in the election and in government. Perhaps voting third party is the perfect step toward speaking up for something different than what we’ve had. I definitely appreciate the sentiment.
At the same time, the reason I will vote for McCain is not because I agree with all he says or because I believe that having a McCain presidency will answer all our problems; instead, i will vote for McCain because I believe Obama believes that government is the answer to all of the world’s ills. I could be wrong about my belief, but I definitely think Obama and Biden are bigger fans of governmental solutions to problems than McCain and Palin. And if that is the solution an Obama presidency offers, then I really don’t think it will be beneficial for our country or the world.
I couldn’t help but ponder, as I ran past the election signs this afternoon while jogging, seeing the blues and the reds, how good it would be to bring it all together into glorious purple, the color of royalty, representing the King of all kings, and seeing Jesus’ Kingdom come and God’s will be done on earth just as it is in Heaven. Bring on the purple – under Real authority in Christ.
Posted by jill on October 29, 2008 at 10:59 am
E, no worries! I think we’re all nutters to some extent.
But just to be fair, here from the Chicago Tribune (a known conservative rag, mind you):
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-donorsoct29,0,1269595.story
I think this campaign has been unprecedented in many ways, but frankly, we all should recognize that our elections have historically been dominated by money and influence.
I also can’t help to throw out here that I myself am a Community Psychologist (oh no, I might be a clandestine Commie!), and therefore take the incessant attacks on community organizing in this campaign very tiresome. ACORN has done a number of wonderful things, and it is not the evil entity that has been portrayed. There are two sides to every issue that has been brought up in this campaign, on ALL sides.
Posted by Bryan Riley on October 29, 2008 at 11:19 am
Molly, I wrote some sentiments similar to Chewymom’s posts recently – here and here – check them out while you’re in the mood to read the circus of views.
Posted by maura on October 29, 2008 at 11:50 am
*Some* of the ideas in this thread have been kind of nutty – like the idea that Obama will somehow outlaw Christianity. If anyone is still undecided (or just interested) there’s a *fantastic* PBS special here:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/choice2008/
which you can watch online in its individual chapters (which alternate between the candidates) – I’d especially recommend chapter 8, where you can see McCain on The Daily Show laughing with Jon Stewart about having to win over the “crazy base” (that’s you guys) in order to win the presidency.
The thing about abortion is this – I happen to be pro-choice, my mom’s pro-life, and we both agree on Obama. The republican party NEEDS abortion as a wedge issue in order to win – because there are so many people who will only vote for a pro-life candidate. Have you noticed that of the last 28 years we’ve had a republican president for 20 of them? And yet – abortion is still safe and legal? Because that’s an important thing to notice.
I completely understand wanting John McCain to be president – he is awesome. During the primaries I thought – as long as McCain wins the nomination – I can relax! Because we’ll be ok either way! But he has changed so much, and the Palin nomination was reckless and cynical. Maybe he doesn’t care what happens if he dies – but I sure do. She is in no way qualified to be president. Either she thinks that proximity to Russia is the same as foreign policy experience – or she thinks we’re dumb enough not to know the difference. Either she thinks that Obama’s tax plan “sounds like socialism” (in which case – being that it’s a continuation of the same progressive taxation scheme that we’ve had for 95 years – she’s an idiot) OR she thinks we’re dumb enough not to know that.
Anyhow, I know everyone’s sick to death of the election – I am, too – but I really learned a lot from the special and it’s sure to be more interesting than tonight’s infomercial
Posted by chewymom on October 29, 2008 at 11:58 am
E, The Washington Post article is interesting, and it points out problems with campaign financing that were non-issues in previous campaigns, but first of all, I see no proof that “Some persons and/or some countries are buying and financing Obama’s Presidency, and it’s never going to be known who that is, if Obama can help it.” Do you have evidence of that? And is McCain having similar issues? Or can they trace every penny that has been donated? It sounds like your beef, E, is with the campaign finance laws.
And I will admit that I’m confused about Campbell Brown’s point in her article that you linked to. Is the problem that Obama promised to spend our tax dollars on his campaign, and now he is not because so many people donated to what they considered to be a worthy cause – his campaign? Maybe I’m misunderstanding, but if a politician promises to spend public money and fails to do so, I’m all for that kind of broken promise!
Posted by Scott on October 29, 2008 at 12:06 pm
E,
NEWSFLASH!! Obama wants to win!! Whats breathtaking is the sheer number of small contributors Obama has. Its never happened before. The conspiratorial theory is that illegal aliens and foreigners and foreign governments are injecting wads of cash in tiny amounts into Obamas campaign. Or the rational theory, very very large numbers of regular ole common folk are breaking out their debit cards. The reason the second theory makes sense is because Obama is also doing other things in very large numbers. For example, he spoke to 150,000 people in two rallies in Colorado on Saturday. He has an unprecedented number (millions) of people working the grassroots at field offices all over the country. He has a huge number of people who have signed up and participate on his website. Although I guess theoretically all those rally attenders and grassroot worker and social networkers are all illegal immigrant Yemenis, I kinda doubt it. I am a case in point. I have never before given money to a campaign or been active in volunteering for a campaign. But since this spring, I have given a little more than $100 dollars, made bunches of phone bank calls and I intend to go to Florida to work on Get Out the Vote efforts in that crucial swing state this weekend.
I like to think that since Obama’s campaign is largely financed by little people like me, that it is a better form of “public financing” than tax money. There is no question Obama has HUGE cash advantage.
For the record I do think they should tighten security and name checking on their donation acceptance system but its clear there’s been no violation of the law. Probably the law needs to be rethunk.
Scott
BTW – how many of you are going to watch Obama’s infomercial tonight?
Posted by Leah on October 29, 2008 at 12:42 pm
ugh. it all makes me wanna puke.
Posted by Emily on October 29, 2008 at 1:35 pm
I know, I know that some people are offended if you call Obama a Socialist, but face it, the wealth redistribution is Socialist. If you’ve never heard Neal Boortz, he’s worth checking into. He’s a libertarian. He has a good article at Townhall.com, “Decoding Barack”. http://townhall.com/columnists/NealBoortz/2008/10/27/decoding_barack
Also check out his website: boortz.com
He’s very clear, commonsense.
I heard today that someone’s high school age son informed his mom that he hoped Obama won so he could drop out of high school, get a fastfood job and live off what the government was promising for someone of his income level.
I personally think this will be the dumbing down of America which will render us incapable of helping ourselves – much less others around the world who have called on us.
Historically, these Socialist ideas have failed societies. Take for example Jamestowne. . . the English settlement was falling apart and failing under the government where they shared everything in common and were not rewarded for their individual labors. By large, the settlers quit working (laziness and frustration) and eventually had little to eat and grew sick. The settlement was in jeopardy.
It was John Smith, once elected as President of the Council, who organized and governed the settlers to success. He proclaimed, “He that will not worke shall not eate, ” (except the sick). He recorded the accomplishments of each settler and he himself set to task, setting the example.
If you think there are racial, class issues now, just wait until the bitterness builds from those who bear the brunt of the taxes while about half get “tax cuts” that are really “tax payments”.
Yes, it sounds good that you might get some hand outs from the government, but essentially, the end result will be that you limit yourself and the future of your children.
Even the Bible has things to say about not working = no eating. (Check out 2 Thessalonians, particularly chapter 3.) Granted, we are supposed to give to others as Christ gives to us. . . he did not love himself first as our humanistic teachers try to teach us, “You have to love yourself in order to love others.” BS. . .
I really believe there are problems on both sides. We have a greedy extreme. And we have a wealth-envious extreme who will claim “racism” and “-isms” of all sorts to avoid having any personal accountability.
I spent 7 weeks in a hospital this past Spring while on pregnancy bedrest (twin to twin transfusion syndrome), and upclose, I got to see some things that frustrated me about America. THERE ARE NEEDY PEOPLE in our country. THERE ARE PEOPLE, WORLDWIDE, in major need.
And then there are people who are perfectly content, oblivious perhaps, to just taking and taking and taking at the expense of the American taxpayer. It’s sinful.
I’m not making an argument that we ought not to help others and be wiling to give. The argument that I’m making is that we should not expect the government (aka the taxpayers) to give us hand outs when we are able-bodied. 2 Thessalonians includes this:
Warning Against Idleness
6 In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers and sisters, to keep away from every believer who is idle and disruptive and does not live according to the teaching [a] you received from us. 7 For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example. We were not idle when we were with you, 8 nor did we eat anyone’s food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you. 9 We did this, not because we do not have the right to such help, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you to imitate. 10 For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: “Anyone who is unwilling to work shall not eat.”
11 We hear that some among you are idle and disruptive. They are not busy; they are busybodies. 12 Such people we command and urge in the Lord Jesus Christ to settle down and earn the bread they eat. 13 And as for you, brothers and sisters, never tire of doing what is good.
14 Take special note of those who do not obey our instruction in this letter. Do not associate with them, in order that they may feel ashamed. 15 Yet do not regard them as enemies, but warn them as fellow believers.
So I would argue that Christians voting for Obama because they stand to make money from the government, you’d better think twice.
Obama is fundamentally bad for America. Jesus himself did not hold a handgun to our heads and demand we give our possessions to others. . . He gives us a loving choice. And yes, there will be consequences for our choices.
Perhaps an Obama Presidency is our consequence for the greed and materialism of our society. . .
Personally I believe that each must be allowed to act and vote according to his/her own conscience/convictions.
Fundamentally, I do not agree with Obama because he does not reflect that line of thought. Government in America will become a whole different animal because the things he has been saying and writing for years before he began stumping officially for President, indicate he is motivated by reparations to one particular race. And I think he will say whatever he has to say to get in a position of power to make these reparations into law if he possibly can.
I do not trust him, and I do not think he is truly adhering to Christianity if he ignores scripture as I have cited. He believes in Black Liberation Theology, and I would dare to say that it is an aberration of Christianity.
Do I think he is evil? I think all humans have that in them.
Do I think all Obama followers are idiots? No. Just human like us all. We all have our reasons for our convictions. It’s just that some of us will be right, and some will be wrong about all sorts of issues and ideas. McCain/Palin supporters do not own all of the “rights”, and Obama supporters do not own all of the “wrongs”.
How about the 3rd party voters? They must do what they’re convicted to do.
As I posted before: I voted for McCain/Palin as I live in a hotly contested swing state.
Another issue brought up here: I’m a Southerner too, and I could say a lot about the racial issues. Let me just put it this way: racism goes both ways. Whites are the only racists. And white Southerners have been stereotyped as racists all their livesby other regions of the country. Some of these stereotypers are individuals from other parts of the country where black/white rarely mix. Take for instance my Midwestern mother-in-law who assumed all white Southerners had racist tendencies. . . she never saw or interacted with a black person until she was a freshmen in high school! You can stand outside looking in and listen to the media’s coverage, but until you have experienced something upclose and personal, be careful about what you proclaim. Especially when it comes to “white Southerners” and racism in the South.
Posted by Emily on October 29, 2008 at 1:40 pm
I meant to type “Whites are NOT the only racists”
Posted by Emily on October 29, 2008 at 1:47 pm
I personally will not be watching the infomercial tonight. I’ve already early voted.
As for the $$$ Obama has received, I question that all of that moolah came from little, bitty regular everyday Americans. It’d be something if it did. But if that’s the case, I’m astounded that people who aren’t paying taxes and need the cash desperately would be so quickly parted from their money just to have him elected.
I find his campaign to be over-the-top and much akin to a high school popularity contest/election. Honestly, I’d use the words vulgar and unnecessary to describe the amount of money he has poured into his advertising, graphics, and all. If it takes that much money to become President, that’s pretty sad for our country. Is it proof that the Presidency can be bought?
Yes, of course he wants to win! At all costs. Monetarily. I think he’s selling the integrity of our American elections. Becoming President is no longer the dream of children because it seems so incredibly impossible now.
Posted by Junelle on October 29, 2008 at 2:04 pm
I gave Obama $25 and I have never given a candidate money before…and I know Christian college students here that have given money to his campain. It is outstanding that he has gotten so much money from a super duper red state *UTAH* even though we have no hope of our vote ever counting.
I am going to tape tonight’s 30 minutes since I will be at bible study being assaulted by other Christians about my choice to vote for Obama.
It is like a big open wound in the Christian communities…I pray for God’s merciful healing when this thing is answered and we can work on being together in this thing…or I might just move to Canada (or Italy – better wine).
Posted by Junelle on October 29, 2008 at 2:09 pm
and thank you Maura for the info online…I am going to share it with family and friends.
Posted by amberingrose on October 29, 2008 at 2:23 pm
“he is motivated by reparations to one particular race. And I think he will say whatever he has to say to get in a position of power to make these reparations into law if he possibly can.”
Are you serious? How do you know this, Emily? You sound a tad bitter…
Posted by tonia on October 29, 2008 at 2:26 pm
junelle,
you make me smile.
drive on up to oregon and we’ll do bible study (with good wine, of course) – without the assaults.
your fellow-obama-gal
Posted by Emily on October 29, 2008 at 2:44 pm
I’m very serious. If you listen closely to the things he’s said in interviews for over 15 years now, you will see this too. He spent years in a black liberation theology church only to “abandon” the particular pastor of that church when it affected his run for Presidency. He said so himself that he deliberately and carefully selected his friends. . . “To avoid being mistaken for a sellout, I chose my friends carefully. The more politically active black students. The foreign students. The Chicanos. The Marxist Professors and structural feminists and punk-rock performance poets.”
There’s a lot of this media being suppressed by the mainstream news. Yes, there’s some pretty sensational stuff out there that I wouldn’t dare buy into, but when he shows a history, associations such as he does, one cannot overlook that.
As far as bitterness goes, you are mistaken.
If this is an attempt to disqualify me as someone able to think for myself or have an opinion or any perspective, then go for it. Just go ahead and say what you’re thinking, the Obama-Rallying Cry: Emily’s a racist!!!!
I have to say, you kind of sound like Biden when Barbara West asked him the “Obama is Marxist” question.
Perhaps I should’ve prefaced that particular statement with: “From my observations and the things I’ve read about Obama and his life, and having read Michelle Obama’s thesis, I think the Obamas are sincere in doing whatever they can to help the black race without concern for white, capitalistic America.”
Would that make my comment a little more palatable for you? If not, then choose to make judgment of me if you wish.
Do you think me evil for such a statement? Be careful here, because you know, we wouldn’t want to call anyone, Obama included, evil.
Posted by molleth on October 29, 2008 at 2:50 pm
Hey, all, this is just a friendly reminder about the Comment Policy here. You can check it out via the link at the top of this page. It’s a “boy/girl scouts honor” policy, meaning I don’t really police it, but I would love it if you would make an effort to try. Open dissent and debate is not only allowed, but encouraged…but name-calling and personal accusations are openly DIScouraged…
Posted by tonia on October 29, 2008 at 3:00 pm
Someone pointed out that this hysteria has been said one time or another in all the previous elections as well. This type of talk (such as Emily’s comments above) were what led me to vote for Bush, unfortunately. I’m glad I’ve lived long enough to see that “this too shall pass.”
Next week we will all have to be getting back to figuring out how to get along with each other despite our deep differences.
Emily,
I don’t think you are an evil racist. I do think you may want to ask yourself where all the fear and anger you project is rooted.
So many of the arguments used (by all of us) for and against both candidates spring from and play upon FEAR.
Assuming we are all believers here, we should be radiating the peace of Christ to the rest of the anxious, troubled world. I, for one, think intelligent, loving, devoted Christ-followers can come to different conclusions about this election. We can stand confidently and peacefully on our decisions and leave room for the Holy Spirit to work differently in other people.
Posted by amberingrose on October 29, 2008 at 3:16 pm
Molly, I am sorry if I went against your comment policy. I didn’t call her any names whatsoever. Emily I am sorry for upsetting you by saying you sound bitter (is that name calling?). I do agree with Tonia’ s sentiments though. You need to look deep within yourself and find out where the anger that so blatantly comes across in your lengthy posts comes from. To me it is scary and offensive.
Posted by molleth on October 29, 2008 at 3:25 pm
Hey, ar, I can triple-dog promise that I wasn’t speaking to any individual at all, nor had any one individual in mind. It was just a friendly reminder, that’s all.
Posted by Fay on October 29, 2008 at 3:38 pm
Woah, just had to make it 92…
I can relate completely to sore haunches from middle riding…and the ridicule that generally ensues if anyone finds out where I stand or don’t stand…
Posted by Fay on October 29, 2008 at 3:44 pm
or if anyone discovers I can’t count…
Posted by Emily on October 29, 2008 at 4:49 pm
Here’s another lengthy post; so don’t read unless you want to see what I have to say! I’m being honest in a way not meant to be offensive but to share ideas and thoughts. I do feel that there is an attempt to label me or disqualify what I am thinking. I have made myself vulnerable to this forum in sharing these thoughts.
As for fear, I am fearful, and I am always having to remind myself that none of what is going on is NO surprise to our Lord. What exactly am I fearful of? I am fearful that what we are experiencing is the result of a collective backturning against the Lord. It’s not so much that I am afraid of Obama the man. Although, I do not trust him based on facts from his own mouth.
Am I bitter towards blacks? I wouldn’t say that. I dated a minority guy to be honest with you. I learned alot from black friends and roommates about black society and how they believe that any individual black success is tied to the entire race. . . if you succeed, there’s an expectation that you are responsible for the salvation of the entire race being brought up. There isn’t much credence given to the “rogue” black individual acting in his own interest. I could say alot about why I believe Obama sees his own salvation tied to that of the entire race. . . but he himself has already said that in interviews accessible on the internet.
How do I feel about that? I guess it does make me angry come to think of it that we are still, black/white/Southerners/Christian fundies/white-washed feminists/whatever, being lumped as groups instead of being respected as individuals. Obama’s theology lumps us this way. It’s not MLK Jr. thinking.
Just because I have the audacity to say honestly that I believe Obama has made a life mission of saving the black race without care for whites doesn’t mean that I am racist. It is an observation based on what I know. Maybe I don’t know something that you know. I’m listening.
I disagree with the ideas Obama has put forth and do not think his ideas will make the world a better place for each, every one ultimately. These ideas have failed thru-out history, and I believe these ideas will only hurt the world. I do not think his ideas align with what I have studied in my Bible on my own.
What do you think of being offended? Is it the devil’s bait?
I guess I need to spend some time with the Lord to figure out if my anger about Obama’s ideas is righteous or sinful.
If someone here wants to insult me in any manner, passive-aggressive or blatantly, please go ahead. I really do not mean to offend or scare anyone. I am being honest. . . some of the racial issues are very raw and can hurt to confront them. I grew up tiptoeing around these issues as a white Southerner in the post-racial world. Yet, I’ve come to the conclusion that keeping our mouths shut instead of respectfully opening up the communications is just as damaging. I think it was a black Professor of education teaching a diversity class that made me realize that we needed to talk/listen to better understand. Even if the talk felt “raw”, it was worth trying to respectfully listen and understand.
To those whom this kind of communication is offensive, perhaps you are the ones harboring a deepdown fear of something.
But more than anything, I’d like to know what you think about the scripture I posted as it relates to the candidates and how we might vote.
Posted by maura on October 29, 2008 at 5:09 pm
1. apologies – the relevant chapter of “The Choice” special is chapter *six*. Ooh I hate being wrong!
2. To Emily – I really appreciate how honest you are being – this stuff is hard to talk about.
I did want to address the quote you raised about Obama “choosing friends”. It was so weird I googled it, and the context goes like this:
To avoid being mistaken for a sellout, I chose my friends carefully. The more politically active black students.The foreign students. The Chicanos. The Marxist Professors and the structural feminists and punk-rock performance poets. We smoked cigarettes and wore leather jackets. At night, in the dorms, we discussed neocolonialism, Franz Fanon, Eurocentrism, and patriarchy. When we ground out our cigarettes in the hallway carpet or set our stereos so loud that the walls began to shake, we were resisting bourgeois society’s stifling constraints. We weren’t indifferent or careless or insecure. We were alienated.
In context, it’s clear that he’s affectionately mocking the kind of kid he was – oh, putting out cigarettes in hallways is an act of resistance! He’s explicit about the “indifferent, careless, insecure” nature of his undergraduate explorations (which, frankly, describe a totally normal college experience).
I think that to claim that Obama is racist against white people (himself, his mother, his grandmother) is a serious accusation, and I wonder where you’re getting that from.
Posted by tonia on October 29, 2008 at 5:09 pm
Emily,
In my understanding, the scripture you posted is talking about behavior among believers – not about our relations with the whole world.
The passage I use to inform my voting – and my actions, i hope – is the one Jesus said in Luke 6:
27 But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,
28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who ill-treat you.
29 If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic.
30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back.
31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.
32 If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even ’sinners’ love those who love them.
33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even ’sinners’ do that.
34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even ’sinners’ lend to ’sinners’, expecting to be repaid in full.
35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.
36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
notice He does not say that we should give to the deserving poor.
i’m not giving you my whole thought on this, just responding to your last question about scripture and how it relates to voting.
Posted by amberingrose on October 29, 2008 at 6:18 pm
“I’m not a racist! My best friend is black” (or white or Indian, etc.) —> very racist especially when you see it coming from someone who is so obviously harbouring some sort of “issue” pertaining to race.
Emily your post is wrong on so many levels, but I really just don’t have the inclination to go point by point about the statements you made that I don’t agree with. I can see that you *will* have the last word – no matter what, and I am more than willing to have it.
Posted by holly on October 29, 2008 at 7:16 pm
oh….I am a nutter all the way. Obama scares me to pieces, based on the issues and his slim voting record and his inexperience and his past associations. I’m willing to be a nutter in favor of life. If I’m wrong , what will I need to apologize for? For standing unwaveringly for the unborn? That is okay by me.
Is obama black? Who cares about color? The lord made us all…no,my fear is over his record. And when I fear , I take it to the lord,and he removes that fear.
Side note I wish to mention: obama’s outreach to faith communities was crafted for palatibility by a planned parenthood worker. Sorry, I can’t provide the link because I’m on a mobile…google “unholy messaging.”
Interesting, using a pro-abort to tell people of faith that it is okay to support obama because his policies overall support life…I find that deceptive.
So, sign me a nutter. I’m happy to be one.
Posted by Barb on October 29, 2008 at 7:18 pm
Wow, what a conversation – too many to read right now but let me ante up my 2 cents.
I’m voting for McCain/Palin because Obama’s worldview is so radical and so government-heavy laden. He has yet to prove himself. He has not put his hand to anything (other than this campaign – which does show he can raise a heckuva lot of bucks) that benefits anyone other than himself.
- His background is still murky (no, I don’t think he’s a Muslim and I do think he’s a U.S. citizen!), – his mentors, friendships are questionable (Ayers, Rashidi, Wright – folks who lean far, far left)
- his campaign has received questionable donations, his involvement with ACORN and voter fraud should be investigated (but won’t till after Jan. 20th, I predict),
- he’s not just pro-choice but pro-abortion declaring his first act of president would be to sign FOCA – blindly supporting with tax-payer funds Planned Parenthood and not holding them accountable to their reprehensible teachings on sexuality,
- his understanding of economics seem shortsighted and narrow. Build up the companies and jobs are created, punish the wealth-makers and you weaken the economy
- rather than help the poor up his plan encourages dependence on a handout.
- he believes government is the answer and HE is the change needed, not just for our country but the world – that’s arrogance.
What is so apparent to me during this election is that government is NOT our savior. We cannot depend on it. It is faulty. God is sovereign. Regardless of a democrat or republican in the office – God is sovereign and my trust will be in Him alone.
Posted by Crystal on October 29, 2008 at 9:00 pm
YAY!!! I’m voting third party too, I’m going with Chuck Baldwin, I too am voting for someone I can actually support and want to see in the White House.
“Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost.” ~ John Quincy Adams
I also came across this article today about voting third party and I like what it said here…
“Consider also how both parties together have succeeded in making you feel you have to vote against someone. In 2000, for example, you may not have liked Bush much, but felt you needed to vote against Al Gore, or vice versa. That, I propose, is precisely what the two parties want. They have, by picking the right issues, managed to completely polarize the American public into two camps, split almost 50/50. Further, they’ve set the tone of American politics as one of constant acrimony and argument. Far too much attention is spent criticizing the other camp, and not enough on presenting new, positive ideas. It’s a divide and conquer strategy. By polarizing the American public, the Republicrat power coalition has kept people too busy fighting with each other to see what the real problem is. It’s the old case of ‘let’s you and him fight’.
This makes each person think, “My vote is essential to prevent the other party from winning; I can’t afford to vote for a third-party candidate, or someone with original ideas.” But considering the dearth of good ideas among the current Republican and Democrat candidates, it’s evident that, whichever wins, we’ll be stuck with another bad president for at least another four years.
This November, then, you’ll have two choices:
1. Vote for the Democrat or Republican candidate, in which case you truly will throw your vote away, or
2. Vote for a third party candidate.”
http://satyagraha.wordpress.com/2008/01/07/why-vote-third-party/
I may not get the president I want in the White House but I’m going to sleep good knowing I voted for what I truly believe in.
Posted by E on October 29, 2008 at 9:36 pm
Chuck Baldwin? This guy?
http://baldwin08.com/Chuck-Baldwin.cfm
Chuck Baldwin is a citizen of the United States of America just like you and me (sic). The difference is that he is not an elected politician offering the same old political answers. Chuck Baldwin has talked the talk and walked the walk. He doesn’t have a history of flip-flops and he does not test the wind every time he takes a position. Refreshing isn’t it? Have you ever thought what you would do if you were elected President of the United States? Chuck has done just that and he is providing the right answers to the important questions.
Chuck Baldwin was born in La Porte, Indiana on May 3, 1952. He is married to the former Miss Connie Kay Cole. Chuck and Connie were married on June 2, 1973 after meeting in college. They have three cherished and wonderful children and all three are married with families of their own.
Chuck graduated from La Porte High School in 1971 and attended Midwestern Baptist College in Pontiac, Michigan for two years. After he and Connie married and upon graduation they moved to Lynchburg, Virginia where he enrolled in Liberty Bible Institute at Liberty University. Since he earned his Bachelor and Master Degrees in Theology, Chuck has received two honorary Doctorate Degrees.
Chuck is a founder and minister at the Crossroad Baptist Church in Pensacola, FL. Under his leadership the Church was recognized by President Ronald Reagan. Many conservative political and values leaders have spoken in his church including Patrick J. Buchannan, Pueblo Intelligence Officer Lt. Commander Steve Harris, Congressman Joe Scarborough and Ambassador Alan Keys to name just a few.
Chuck Baldwin is also a radio talk show host and an accomplished author. He moderates a daily, a one hour long call-in show where he addresses current event topics from a conservative point of view. The program is considered to be the most influential voice in the Florida Panhandle for conservative principles. Thousands of citizens are informed and rally to a call to action on issues that are so important to our nation’s future.
Chuck is also a newspaper and internet columnist whose articles and political commentaries are carried by a host of internet sites, newspapers, and news magazines.
He has had the honor of meeting with former Presidents Ronald Reagan and George Bush, Sr. and Governors Bob Martinez, Fob James, Jr. and Jeb Bush. He has also been officially recognized by the Escambia County Florida Sheriff’s Department as an Honorary Deputy Sheriff. He received the “National Medal of Patriotism” award from the American Police Hall of Fame and is a volunteer chaplain at the State Prison in Century, Florida.
- – -
Okay … I’m still looking for his qualifications to be President.
Posted by Emily on October 30, 2008 at 4:28 am
Tonia, I’d be a fool to argue with love and grace.
I do agree.
No matter which candidate is elected, I will submit to that authority and fight any bitterness or fear for self I may feel. I will not spend the next 4 to 8 years being bitter and waiting for the next election to exact any sort of revenge. Furthermore, I will not curse and revile the President or call him an idiot.
I do believe in giving too. When we are empty, God’s love and grace does refill us when we ourselves are empty. I have particularly experienced that this year in my own family in a very trying situation.
So while I must take into account the scripture you cited as a reason for pouring one’s self out of love for all, I still do think CHRISTIANS voting for Obama because they will receive a handout are embracing a sin.
Shoud I vote for Obama based on the scripture you’ve given? I do not think so. I think the same reasoning is applicable to any candidate. All of the candidates offer something to all in the way of giving to the deserving/undeserving. To imply that voting for any other candidate besides Obama is outright neglect of Luke 6 is kinda off (in my thinking). Obama is not the only candidate trying to do the “right thing” by the people. (Which begs another question: is it possible for any candidate to save the world? I have so many questions.)
McCain wants to let the people decide what to do with their money instead of the government deciding. Do you want to send money to Christian missions or do you want the government giving it to the organization they think is best? So I’m not following how Obama would be the best candidate. . . just because he thinks “spreading the wealth” is fair? I believe in giving and that what God entrusts to me is actually His. . . I’m just the steward. I’m not certain an Obama government is the best steward of God’s gifts. I mean, let’s look at Freddie and Fannie and all the money rolling in to elect Obama. . . it’s an obscene amount in the face of a starving child here in America. That’s just one line of thought though.
Yes, Luke 6 should guide our thinking always and everyday. And 2 Thessalonians should also be brought up amongst Christians. Maybe Obama needs to hear these things since he claims Christianity also.
I’m not determined to have the last word, as amberingrose commented when she thoughtfully called me a racist. The dialogue has interested me in thinking deeper about why I should vote this way or that. I haven’t stayed in it just to prove my point. Tonia, you did challenge me to always remember God’s love will always fill me even when I don’t think I can keep giving. . . I will hold on to that no matter the results of this election.
Posted by E on October 30, 2008 at 4:39 am
I was thinking this morning (a dangerous thing to do if one hasn’t first had at least one cup of coffee), and I realized that I really don’t care if Barack Obama is or isn’t a natural-born citizen of the United States.
I can understand why that might have been important at the time the Constitution was written, and for many years afterwards as America became and grew as a nation, but except for barring someone who is a citizen or representative of another country from being President, or someone who has not been a U.S. citizen for a certain number (i.e., a large number) of years, in this age of globalization where many large U.S. corporations are largely or in part foreign-owned and where most of what we buy, use, wear and live in or live by comes from non-American companies and hands – and since being a “natural-born citizen” is no guarantee that the one holding the office of POTUS will keep America’s interests first and foremost in his or her thoughts and plans and actions – I wonder if this requirement, though enshrined and entombed in the Constitution, is somewhat antiquated.
I know it will require a probably-impossible-to-get amendment to modify the rule, but I guess I am not as worked up about it as some people are. Maybe they’re right to be worked up about it – i.e., if we don’t or won’t follow our Constitution and laws, then everything is up for grabs and allowable.
Maybe someone or some party really will try to amend this.
I guess it’s like ensuring that Jewish priests be of the tribe of Levi. Does it really matter anymore? Did it really matter then? What did Aaron and his descendants do that any other Israelite couldn’t do? Even God passed over Levi when He chose His Ultimate High Priest from the tribe of Judah.
Just teasing… maybe.
Posted by Barb on October 30, 2008 at 5:09 am
I think it’s interesting and a bit fascinating that so many christians commenting here say, “I’ve prayed about this and believe the Lord is leading me to vote for….” fill in the blank.
If God is leading voters to vote for three different candidates, is it God telling you who to vote for or your own conscious? And I say this to myself. I am predisposed to vote for McCain. So when I pray, voting for McCain is the answer I’m looking for.
So when I look at the candidates I don’t think I should go to God with who to vote for – He works through any and all governments (Freedom loving democracies/republics and dictatorial communist regimes).
I’m leaning more and more to casting my vote for the person who represents my worldview, my ideals and praying God you be sovereign regardless who wins.
I think that’s what irritated me so much with the Matthew 25 group (and I know there are others like that voting for McCain – so my irritation is with all like groups). They wear the cloak of Christianity and claim this is where God stands. How can that be when there is such diversity and little agreement? God placed enemies around Israel, God allowed Israel to be free, God allowed good kings and evil kings and through it all God did it – not man, not eloquent speeches, not keen economic policy planning.
As the body of Christ I hope we see the church as a beacon to God and not to a political party/person.
Posted by chewymom on October 30, 2008 at 5:20 am
Hey Emily,
You do realize that McCain will also tax Americans, right? He will choose what to do with our money, too – only his choice probably involves the war. It isn’t like Obama is the only candidate with plans on how to spend government money. (And he has spent less of your tax money on his campaign than McCain, I might add, although some label that a “broken promise.”)
Also, you do realize that Obama is 1/2 white, don’t you? His family ties are strongest with his white grandparents. It seems a bit…farfetched to think that he would be personally so close to them, and yet politically only out to benefit the black guys.
Posted by tonia on October 30, 2008 at 5:39 am
Emily,
I think you are asking wonderful questions (and you have been quite brave to keep hammering it out here.) Those are the things I’ve been asking myself for the past few years. Just to clarify, I didn’t say that reading Luke 6 = a vote for Obama. I said that those are some of the verses I use to inform my own voting and that intelligent, loving people may come to different conclusions about who to vote for.
What we are talking about is just *systems* of gov’t. I would prefer to live in a democratic republic, myself, but I believe Jesus is Lord in a monarchy, a dictatorship, under communism and socialism. (Look at the govt set up for the Jews – what would a year of Jubilee look like in America?) It seems to me that sometimes we confuse what we are fighting over. Is it truly *immoral* (in the sense of a God-decreed sin) to say you want your govt to provide health care for everyone? or welfare? (I’m just asking the question – not arguing those points one way or the other.)
I don’t know about you, Emily, but for me all these issues are wrapped tightly in layers of church and religion and the way a christian “ought to think.” I am still unwrapping and trying to figure out how much is actually scriptural and how much is…not. I do know I’m not going to be bullied by fear anymore. Every election in my memory (Reagan was my first) has been this way: churches and christians proclaiming the end of the America and all our liberties just as loudly as the liberals on the other end of the spectrum.
I refuse to be dragged into it. If you have looked at scripture, sought the Lord and come to the conclusion that McCain is your best choice, then go vote in faith and freedom. You don’t have to justify your reasons nor do you need to defend yourself as not a racist.
I read your entries here and see a decent, caring woman who is trying to wade through the current and make a choice that honors the Lord. Our political situation is so confusing and there are so many factors that go into how we perceive or understand one issue or another. Can we really say it is a sin for a sister or brother to come to a different conclusion than our own? I don’t think so. God is just so much bigger than that.
(((Emily))))
Go outside today and look at the sky. Remember how great is our God. Rest in Him.
One thing that is sure: under either president there will be plenty of people with whom to love and serve and share Jesus. We’ll never have a shortage of that!
God bless,
tonia
Posted by tonia on October 30, 2008 at 5:45 am
Barb said: If God is leading voters to vote for three different candidates, is it God telling you who to vote for or your own conscious?
Maybe God doesn’t have the One Right Candidate that all christians are supposed to vote for. Maybe it’s more about the individual and His work in each of them.
just thinking….
Posted by chewymom on October 30, 2008 at 5:49 am
Holly,
You asked, “I’m willing to be a nutter in favor of life. If I’m wrong , what will I need to apologize for? For standing unwaveringly for the unborn? That is okay by me.”
I would argue that potentially you would be apologizing for voting for someone who used the pro-life issue to woo voters, who did not appoint the types of supreme court justices you hoped for (just like his Republican predecessors), thereby not changing Roe v Wade in the least, and who implemented policies that discourage women from choosing life, thereby actually increasing abortion numbers. I’m not saying that WILL or WOULD happen under McCain. But I think voting “pro-life” isn’t as black and white as most Republican/Christians would have us believe.
You may also potentially be apologizing to Obama-supporting Christians for assuming that they are voting against life, if in fact his legacy is that abortion numbers drop due to his policies supporting single mothers, disability rights, etc., even though the laws continue to allow for choice in the area of abortion. Again, not saying any of this WILL happen, but I just don’t think it’s as black and white as saying, “I’m voting pro-life, you’re not, and I have nothing to apologize for.”
Posted by DeeAnn on October 30, 2008 at 6:35 am
You all remind me of the stories my mother used to read to me about the hysteria people in germany had over one of their budding new leaders prior to WWII. The masses are flocking so it has to be right. Doesn’t it?
Posted by Scott on October 30, 2008 at 7:15 am
DeeAnn,
Did you just call Obama supporters Nazis?
Scott
Posted by Scott on October 30, 2008 at 7:17 am
That Chewymom is one smart woman. I have it on good authority she is also hot.
Scott
Posted by Scott on October 30, 2008 at 7:25 am
And for those of you who have mentioned Obama and McCain on taxes, just keep in mind they are both “redistributionist” or “socialists” if you will. The tax policy institute believes that Obama’s plan is more responsible because it would contribut to the defict less than McCain’ plan.
Here is a quote from Sarah Plain earlier this year from an interview.
A few weeks before she was nominated for Vice-President, she told a visiting journalist—Philip Gourevitch, of this magazine—that “we’re set up, unlike other states in the union, where it’s collectively Alaskans own the resources. So we share in the wealth when the development of these resources occurs.” Perhaps there is some meaningful distinction between spreading the wealth and sharing it (“collectively,” no less), but finding it would require the analytic skills of Karl the Marxist. ”
I find that incredibly ironic. And for the record, Molly, I don”t really have a problem with what y’all do in Alaska. I know if I lived in a resource rich state, I wouldn’t mind getting a check every now and then.
You’re just gleaning from the edges of the (oil) fields right?
Scott
Posted by E on October 30, 2008 at 7:38 am
Scott:
Let me take a stab at differentiating between Alaska’s “share the wealth” and Obama’s “spread the wealth”:
Alaska’s “share the wealth”: When corporations make big profits from Alaskan lands and resources, the citizens and residents of Alaska get $$ in the mail; all the $$ don’t stay with the corporations.
Obama’s “spreading the wealth”: If Obama thinks you as a private citizen make more money than he thinks you should, he’ll force you to pay more to the Federal government in taxes, which he’ll give in part to those who he thinks need it because they have or make less than you.
Simplified differentiation: Obama’s plan is to increase your taxes if you’re middle class or higher (to be determined by him), and give some of it to people of lesser means (to be determined by him). Alaska’s plan is to give you a “royalty”-like share of corporate profits.
Not ironic at all. Palin and Alaska are NOT the same thing as Obama, and to try to equate the two because they both involve “wealth” is like calling an apple an orange because they’re both fruits.
Posted by Liesl on October 30, 2008 at 7:38 am
Scott,
There is a huge difference in what Alaska did vs. what Obama will do. Alaska is sharing the profits of the state’s natural resources with ALL Alaskans. Obama wants to take money I earned out of my pocket and give it to someone else. My brother-in-law in Arakansas gets a small check every month from the gas company because they are drilling in his neighborhood. Everyone in his neighborhood gets the same amount. But no one has to take money out of their pocket and give it to their neighbor. Obama’s policies will enable people rather than help them. it will deepen rifts between social classes rather than bring together. And it will discourage charitable giving because either people won’t have as much to give or they’ll think the govt. is taking care of charities, I don’t have too. It’s bad all the way around.
Posted by Emily on October 30, 2008 at 7:47 am
Chewymom, I am full aware that McCain will tax Americans in all probability. Do I feel the war is worth the cost? Hmmm, I don’t think I know the answer to that. Very mixed feelings on the matter. But I do know that I don’t think it a good idea to quickly pull up the stakes and get of Dodge.
Scott, I think DeeAnn was likening ALL OF US to the fervor and fear that overtook the Germans at that time. I can see it on both sides – including in myself at times. It is scary, and we do need to take a step back.
Tonia, again I thank you for saying some things clearly (what I am terrible at). Jesus is our King always and forever, no matter our circumstances. And yes, I have been “unwrapping” and trying to figure out the role my faith has in my choices for government. . . you described the process so eloquently. In our own individual personal relationships with Christ, we have to figure out where He is leading each one of us. I don’t think God created us to all lead the same life with the same experiences.
So I shouldn’t really be arguing why someone else should vote one way or the other. I guess I get lost in that sometimes instead of remembering once again: None of what happens surprises my Lord. He knows, He knows. I just want to do what He wishes of me so badly.
Is there any Christian here who doesn’t want to please God? Thanks again, Tonia, for your thoughts.
Posted by DeeAnn on October 30, 2008 at 8:09 am
Scott,
No, just drinking from the cups of hysteria as millions of innocents go off to shed their blood on our soil in the name of convenience and God ordained marriage is stripped of it’s sanctity.
Our children today. Our elderly and broken tomorrow.
Who is weeping for our nation? Who cries out at the throne of grace in brokenness? No, we think that a man can fix it. And we look to the latest craze of polished flair.
Posted by DeeAnn on October 30, 2008 at 8:12 am
Scott,
No, just drinking from the cups of hysteria as millions of innocents go off to shed their blood on our soil in the name of convenience and God ordained marriage is stripped of it’s sanctity.
Our children today. Our elderly and broken tomorrow.
Who is weeping for our nation? Who cries out at the throne of grace in brokenness? No, we think that a man can fix it. And we look to the latest craze of polished flair.
Posted by Scott on October 30, 2008 at 8:14 am
E and Liesl,
Wow that was fun to watch you explain that away. So basically what they do in Alaska is OK because they levy taxes on the wealthiest (IE Oil Company share holders) so that EVERYONE gets the same amount. Is it fair because everyone gets a check or because its the same amount for everyone or both? So rich people can buy another flat screen TVs and poor can buy winter clothes and groceries. I’d rather the rich person get less or no money and the poor person be able to buy health insurance or to save for their child’s college. I’m astonished that you would actually make the argument there is some qualitative difference. God didn’t tell the wealthy landowners of Israel to leave the edges of the fields unharvested to be gleaned by everyone. Rather it was so the poor wouldn’t starve.
For the record, under Obama, 95% of Americans will get a tax CUT under Obama’s plan. For the other 5%, Obama is going to let Bush’s tax cuts for them EXPIRE in 2010, which they are currently scheduled to do. For them, their tax rates will go back to what they were under Clinton. Those are families who make more than $250,000 in income and and business whose balance sheets reflect a PROFIT (not revenue) of more than $250,000. There will however be several new tax breaks and tax credits for small businesses.
The fact is, both parties and both candidates redistribute wealth. They have since the new deal. Here’s what my favorite Libertarian blogger wrote about this Thoreau over a Unqualified Offerings
The Comments over there are awesome BTW
Posted by Scott on October 30, 2008 at 8:22 am
DeeAnn,
I have been wondering something. How is letting gay people have the right to marry “stripping God Ordained marriage of its sanctity.” I ask in sincerity. How is providing legal protections for same sex partners in any way shape or form a threat to heterosaexual marriage? Will heteros decide not to marry. Will gay marriage increase the rate of divorce in hetero marriages. I just don’t get it.
Its about liberty. Really it has nothing whatsoever to do with us Christians. If I lived in CA I would vote No on Prop 8 cuz I dont think the government’s jpob is to enforce Judeo-Christian morality. The government has three jobs fundamentally. Protect life, property and liberty. That’s it.
Scott
Posted by E on October 30, 2008 at 8:32 am
Scott wrote: E and Liesl,
Wow that was fun to watch you explain that away.
If that’s your idea of “fun,” go for it. How’s that working out for you? (hat tip to Tyler Durden)
For the record, under Obama, 95% of Americans will get a tax CUT under Obama’s plan. For the other 5%, Obama is going to let Bush’s tax cuts for them EXPIRE in 2010, which they are currently scheduled to do. For them, their tax rates will go back to what they were under Clinton.
This is predicated on the [false and laughable] assumption that Americans have a bounden duty to pay more and more in taxes and that the tax rates under Clinton were inscribed on two stone tablets that he brought down from Mt. Sinai in Arkansas.
Is it grape-flavored Flavor-Aid y’all are drinking?
Posted by E on October 30, 2008 at 8:39 am
Sorry about all the boldface; I omitted a closing tag after “Scott wrote:”.
Yes, raise tax rates. Right when Americans are losing their savings, make it even harder for them to put money into the economy. Many merchants don’t see “black” until the Thanksgiving-to-Xmas shopping season. If you think it’s going to be bad this year, wait until next year when we’re in the same rocky economy (and oil prices will be high again), but people pay higher Obamataxes (oh, excuse me: “Clinton-era taxes”) combined with massive small business job layoffs because employers whose businesses make more than $250,000 a year (what’s that – maybe 4 or more employees?) are having to pay more in Obamataxes because Obamessiah wants to “spread the wealth around.”
Posted by Liesl on October 30, 2008 at 8:39 am
Scott,
Respectfully, you’re still missing the point. Obama wants to take money I have worked for and give it to others. I’m a very charitable person, but I’d like to have a say as to what charities not the ones Obama picks to subsidize. Now, if for some reason America had a huge surplus instead of a huge deficit and Obama wanted to divide the surplus up and give it away and do it in proportion to need – that’s understandable, I don’t need any extra money. But don’t take money I would give to charity or pay for my kid’s college or healthcare or to hire someone and just give it to someone else.
DeeAnn you have an excellent point about the hysteria over Obamas. To that point it reminds me of:
2Thessalonians 2:11
“For this reason, God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false.”
Posted by E on October 30, 2008 at 8:40 am
Darn, I did it again with the boldface. Sorry.
Posted by E on October 30, 2008 at 8:59 am
Okay, Molly. You’ve seen what discussing “religion” and “politics” does to your comboxes.
So, when are you going to write about “sex,” the remaining member of the Holy Trinity of Things You Are Not Supposed To Discuss at the office?
(just kidding!)
Posted by Scott on October 30, 2008 at 8:59 am
I guess y’all didn’t read all of my post. Both Republicans and Democrats redistribute wealth and its disingenuous to not admit that. Republicans just want to distribute up to the wealthiest Americans and to the Military-Industrial complex.
BTW, McCain in his career has always favored progressive taxation, including being stridently opposed to Bush’s tax cuts in 2001.
Look at this Google search
He now is only talking the way he is now for political expediency.
Since he’s losing, he’s grasping at straws.
Scott
Posted by Scott on October 30, 2008 at 9:01 am
E,
Good question regarding the stuff were not supposed to talk about. But that particular one is not appropriate for mixed company.
Scott
Posted by E on October 30, 2008 at 9:03 am
You’re right, Scott. Sex should only occur between members of the same sex. :^)
Posted by Liesl on October 30, 2008 at 9:13 am
Scott,
Republicans have never TAKEN money out of the hands of poor people and GIVE it to those more fortunate. It’s still not wealth redistribution by not forcing richer Americans to give almost half their money away in taxes while others give none. I do think people with higher income should proportionately pay more taxes. I should pay more than 10% while someone making $50K shouldn’t pay more than that. But I shouldn’t pay 40% or more so that they don’t have to pay any taxes. There’s got to be a fair medium. I don’t care if McCain has changed his mind on the taxes, perhaps he’s doing what the people want. That’s my kind of elected official – one that listens to the people. Anyhow, I enjoy your candor.
Posted by E on October 30, 2008 at 9:15 am
Okay, in a change of pace from my anti-Obama remarks, I present this in his favor:
http://www.govexec.com/features/1008-01/1008-01s1.htm
but with this caveat re: whether he really would do much about contractors:
http://www.govexec.com/story_page.cfm?articleid=41294&dcn=todaysnews
Posted by Scott on October 30, 2008 at 9:30 am
E,
Long term, that could cause a problem for our species. Dontcha think?
Scott
Posted by Scott on October 30, 2008 at 9:30 am
I wonder if we’ve achieved a record on number of comments on one of mollys posts?
molly?
Posted by DeeAnn on October 30, 2008 at 9:34 am
Scott,
You have every right in the world to feel that way. However, I do not. Civil law stands as the boundaries of a society. If that society wants to remove all restraint, good for them. They will be ruled over by harsh men who will break their backs. If that society wants to chasten itself through public laws, then they can enjoy the freedoms those laws allow. You can also believe that homosexuality is normal or even cute. You can, really. But your in opposition to the God that created you if you choose to believe that way. When we no longer fear God, we make ourselves friends of destruction and chastisement.
If you want to serve God, you cant do it your own way. You must do it His prescribed way. Even if it hurts. He has proven He is God over and over throughout history. And he will do it again. However, every time he does it, lots of people die in their sins. Do we really want to stiffen our necks and tell an all powerful God how wrong he is?
So, I see where your coming from and go ahead and have the last word. I will continue to stand for righteousness sake till they take my head from my shoulders. Then my blood will cry out from the soil until He returns with fire and a sword for the earth.
Posted by molleth on October 30, 2008 at 10:02 am
I wonder if we’ve achieved a record on number of comments on one of mollys posts?
Not even close. My posts about sex always get the most comments.
Posted by Shyla - Mom to Seven Sweeties on October 30, 2008 at 10:51 am
They are actual issues she’s bringing up, and it’s not fear mongering. They are real, valid concerns to her. Don’t discount our genuine concern, and genuine nervousness/fear about an Obama presidency as irrelevant.
Posted by Scott on October 30, 2008 at 11:12 am
DeeAnn,
I agree with much of what you say from the standpoint of the church and the christian faith.
When it comes to government power, I am basically a libertarian when it comes to social issues. Let people sow what they want and let people reap what they sow.
What you haven’t answered is how, from a civil standpoint, gay marriage is a threat to hetero marraige. Can you answer that question without reference to your faith. In other words, please don’t answer, I oppose gay marriage because God hates it. That’s a very valid thing to say and believe but it doesnt answer my particular question, which is civillay and practiclaly, How is gay marriage a threat to traditional marriage. I sincerely am curious. (I actually do know of one answer that has been given to me that I disagree with but do think is a pretty good answer. But I am not gonna give it away.)
BTW, I don’t think the USA is a Christian nation nor do I believe it ever has been one will be one. Think – Athens Acts:17)
Scott
Posted by DeeAnn on October 30, 2008 at 11:52 am
Sorry, I can not separate faith from society. I don’t believe this is a Christian nation either but the values of Christians have prevailed upon it for many years and kept us blessed. If God is God, then what he said is true and judgement comes to societies who disobey Him. In a vacuum I think libertarian government is great. But it puts man first and ignores the final arbitrator. I don’t just appose gay marriage because God hates it. I appose it because He judges the land because of it. There are plenty of logical arguments to how it strips so called traditional marriage when it lumps the two together in civil society. My concern is not really that. If we allow it without raising a voice then their judgement is on our head. I believe His judgments are as real as the air I breathe… Probably more so and I can not be silent about them. I can no longer hold it back.
But back to my original point. The blood of the innocent is crying out for justice! How will we give it to them. With massive repentance with fasting and mourning over our sin or with our own blood being spilled by famine, disease and the sword of an invading foreign nation? Easy to balk at before it happens. Impossible to stop once it does.
Posted by Holly on October 30, 2008 at 1:17 pm
Good points, DeeAnn. The Lord has compelled me to fast and pray for the last thirty days. I am grieved to the depth of my soul for the blood of the children we have sacrificed in this nation. I agree with you – we will be held accountable before the Lord.
Posted by molleth on October 30, 2008 at 1:42 pm
Holly (and others),
While acknowledging that abortion is the result of what is often a very complicated painful situation (meaning, I don’t want to sound like I don’t have *massive* loads of compassion for the women trapped in situations so desperate that they feel abortion is their best option, because I do, and I think when the pro-life community begins to comprehend the desperation and hopelessness involved in many choices to abort, they will start making some headway in arenas where none has been made before), abortion-as-a-form-of-birth-control is a really big issue to me. In my opinion, it is NOT a marker of a healthy thriving positive society.
However, I will also add that being pro-life isn’t just wanting babies to have a chance. It also involves making choices that enhance the life of those already born. I think the Republicans flunk in many areas involving the lives of those already born. I talk about it a little over at Scott-and-brothers blog, where they also rudely rebuked me for my alchohol preferences. Harumph.
http://www.fattriplets.com/?p=1191
Posted by molleth on October 30, 2008 at 1:43 pm
Whoops. Here is the correct link:
http://www.fattriplets.com/?p=1191#comment-115022
Posted by Holly on October 30, 2008 at 2:03 pm
I know, Molly, my friend. I’ve been in way too many conversations where the same argument has been made regarding enhancing the lives of those who are already alive. I just can’t, respectfully, agree. At least those who are already alive had an opportunity to live and breathe. Poverty in no way equates to death being brought to innocents before they exit the womb. With life, there is always hope. I can’t, can’t, can’t equate the issues. I know this makes some people mad, but I still think the faith vote is purposefully under manipulation by the democrat party – just as surely as it has been under manipulation by the republicans. Doesn’t it bother anyone that a pro-abortionist crafted Obama’s outreach to faith communities?
I have no desire to foment trouble – I consider you my friends. I just can’t not speak out when I feel very strongly about something as important as the wholesale slaughter of babies, and I just can’t see voting for someone who DOES support the signing of the FOCA which will increase the incidence of abortion. I TRULY believe we answer to God directly for this.
I truly don’t wish to fight with words or sarcasm. I’m really tired of that. All I wanted to do was add my opinions to this already full comment box!
I meant no judgement or no condescension at all in my first comment. I was saying that I have to answer for my own choices, my own decisions – we all do.
Posted by Barb on October 30, 2008 at 3:24 pm
I’m in agreement with Holly. The argument that pro-lifers are not pro-life outside the womb needs to be backed up with concrete evidence. The folks I know in my sphere of influence within the pro-life movement embrace young women pregnant, come to the aid of young mothers struggling, work with families anxious about utility and grocery bills, etc.
Sen. Obama is actively pro-abortion, blindly supporting the work of Planned Parenthood. His plan of wealth redistribution involves little to no accountability. His plan keeps those dependent on hand outs in a better position to be dependent rather than yearn for independence and personal responsibility.
Yeah our taxes do get distributed to help those less fortunate right now, rightly so – for temporary aid. Obama’s plan does not encourage wealth in our country because those who make the wealth will see it taken away (and no accountability to how it’s spread around). What will those wealthy folks do?Most likely scenario – take their wealth to a country which would encourage them to build a bigger company, hirer more workers, develop more technology/
So when these companies leave our shores where will the wealth come from for all the welfare? The tax rate will have to be lowered and then the middle class becomes the higher income class. $250,000 becomes $200,000 becomes $150,000 becomes…..
Posted by tonia on October 30, 2008 at 3:57 pm
Holly and others,
I don’t have any problems with people sharing their earnest convictions and even their confusion over my voting choices.
Please, share your heart. I am earnestly pro-life as well and would love to see the end of all abortion everywhere.
I sure wouldn’t mind it though, if people really * listened * to other points of view and at least mentally assented to the fact that there is more than one front on which to fight the abortion battle.
Holly said (but it’s been said or implied by others as well:) I TRULY believe we answer to God directly for this.
Dear sisters, do you honestly believe that any of us here don’t live in the daily fear of the Lord? I seek God’s strength and help and wisdom for every decision I make, from homeschool to grocery lists; I would hardly make a voting decision without seeking the Lord and His will.
We can disagree – strongly – but I respect the work of the Holy Spirit in you and believe He speaks directly to you. I believe you act on His leading. Please allow others the same respect.
I say all this in love – no anger.
Posted by Julia on October 30, 2008 at 4:24 pm
Wow! Leave the room for a minute…
Good discussions, necessary for our freedom, Thanks Molly.
Scott,
No. I am not “WRONG about the presence of a law to protect any and all babies born alive.”
Obama refers to Equal Protection clause of the Constitution when he cites ‘laws on the books’. But, according to our courts, babies in utero do not fall under this protection.
The Infants Born Alive Protection Act was instituted precisely because our laws did not provide for infants born prematurely.
When our ultrasound technology improved, we were able to get a clearer picture of life in the womb.
When our medical technology improved we were able to save babies who had gestated for as little as 22 weeks.
After several high-profile homicide cases in which full-term babies were killed along with their mothers, laws began to form to recognize the right of infant protection.
These three things combined brought us not only the federal Born Alive Infant Protection Act, but each state began to enact their own statues.
This is the culture of life I have been talking about, and this is why our leaders should embrace it. It affects us all.
In the Illinois state senate, Obama voted against the Induced Infant Liability Act to provide medical care to babies who survive abortion on the grounds that it would create more burden on women.
The bill finally passed after Obama left the state senate.
Obama voted against the Federal Born Alive Act, citing the Equal Protection Act, which does not provide for babies who survive an abortion.
Hillary Clinton voted for it.
NARAL went on record saying they did not oppose it…this is an abortion advocate!
Obama’s position on infanticide is more extreme than NARAL.
Noah Webster’s Dictionary defines infanticide as “the intentional killing of an infant”.
I’d like to clarify that I believe abortion is infanticide. But, because the definition of when life begins is above Obama’s paygrade, I’ll only include in my position viable infants who survive abortion and are left to die.
Oh, and Scott, while I don’t classify myself as a “Follower of Jesus”, I do call myself a sinner saved by grace alone…and I owe Obama nothing.
Posted by molleth on October 30, 2008 at 4:31 pm
Holly, just a fyi, because I don’t think I clarified what I meant well enough. In the comment I linked to that I made, I essentially explained why I personally can’t vote for O—that it’s specifically because of my feelings about abortion.
I believe a pro-life ethic is pro-life at all its stages, meaning it will seek to help the poor, it will lift up the “unlovely” of a society instead of seek to silence them, it will not go to war to profiteer, it will not torture those made in God’s image, etc, and, just as important as all those other things, I believe that a pro-life ethic will *not* say that human babies in utero are killable when not convenient.
That pro-life ethic is what is keeping me from voting for D or R platforms this election year.
Btw, tonia,
I appreciate your voice here because it’s expressing well exactly what I posted about in the first place: let’s have our strong opinions. Let’s just not call eachother stupid when we disagree.
Posted by Liesl on October 30, 2008 at 5:19 pm
I believe McCain is pro-life in all sense of the word. He’s against abortion. He fought for our country so we can save our lives from all kinds of harm. He doesnt’ choose to go to war to make a profit, neither did Bush. Please don’t buy into the left mentality that wars in the middle east are about oil. It’s about saving lives. And I doubt he believes or any good American believes in torturing someone for the heck of it. However, if some group came in and kidnapped my children and I was able to get hold of someone from their team I’d torture them until they told me where my kids were. And that would not be wrong. At some point unfortunately you do have to make choices – the lives of the innocent or the lives of the evil. I would not sacrifice my children nor expect a soldier or federal employee to sacrifice innocent American civilians.
Molly and other 3rd party voters please don’t dismiss voting for McCain. I can appreciate that he’s not the perfect candidate, but the reality is either Obama or McCain will be President. And which would you rather live under. Vote that way.
Barb, great points about people assuming wrongly that if your anti-abortion you are not “pro-life” for all people and care for everyone.
In other points, someone posted yesterday that some Christians thought Christianity would be outlawed with Obama. That’s not what we mean at all. However, Obama support hate crimes legislation that would make it against the law for someone to state they think homosexual sex is a sin. It’s a slippery slope. What then – saying abortion is wrong is against the law? saying adultry is? Where will it end. In response to gay marraige. I don’t condone it but the same with abortion I’m not certain making it illegal will make a difference. Christian discipleship is the only way. But the govt. shouldnt’ give gay couples “special rights” nor should they fund abortions. If the govt. agrees to fully fund abortions for people that can’t afford them then it should also fully financially support all living costs and healthcare for a mother who chooses to make an adoption plan. Obama doesn’t support that.
Posted by E on October 30, 2008 at 6:11 pm
I’ll reiterate my unassailable reason for voting for McCain/Palin rather than a third-party candidate (or not voting at all): If Obama/Biden win the election, you’ll have an unstoppable Democratic Triumvirate (White House, Senate and House) passing liberal bill after bill after bill with no one to stop them or force them to consider a conservative compromise. Government works best when it has roadblocks.
If the Dems win the WH and Congress, you better start stuffing your money in mattresses and looking for under-the-counter work or bartering that you can use to avoid paying taxes on all the government programs they’ll tax you for.
Vote your wallet, even if it’s distasteful. Vote McCain/Palin.
Posted by Barb on October 30, 2008 at 6:29 pm
Amen E.!
Posted by Kari on October 31, 2008 at 2:53 am
Back to the original topic, Molly —
Why not address equally how hateful people have been to McCain and Palin and their supporters? I’ve seen some of the harshest and most horrible things said about Palin, in particular, and those who support her. (Disgusting t-shirts, for example) I’ve listened to Obama supporters speak so terribly maliciously about McCain supporters it literally makes me sick to my stomach. This absolutely goes both ways. Why only address it from the vantage of maligned Obama supporters?
Posted by E on October 31, 2008 at 3:03 am
Read this. Anonymous, but interesting if true:
http://www.redstate.com/diaries/anonymous_14/2008/oct/30/what-you-were-never-intended-to-know-in-this/
Posted by Kari on October 31, 2008 at 3:10 am
Was interested to learn that link Tonia gave – the Matthew 25 network – was started by the man who was director of religious outreach for the Kerry-Edwards campaign in 2004 and did similar work for several statewide Democratic candidates, including Governor Ted Strickland of Ohio, Senator Bob Casey of Pennsylvania and Governor Kathleen Sebelius of Kansas.
Posted by Holly on October 31, 2008 at 4:55 am
Kari, I was thinking the exact same thing, and came back this morning to mention the incredibly obvious double standard. Where is the love for our fellow-Christian, Sarah Palin? Why is it okay to hate her?
Posted by Holly on October 31, 2008 at 5:02 am
Another question: Using the argument that pro-life legislation does not work, should we do away with all of the laws against murder, since people are going to kill other people anyway? Why not abandon all legislation, and just focus on changing hearts?
And lastly, Chewy Mom, I respectfully disagree with the apologies that you have suggested I might need to make. If I defend life for the unborn, and I do it out of love and pure motive (not because I *like* one candidate over another or dislike one party over the other, then the Lord sees my heart. If I am not working and walking out my salvation with bitterness or deceit, but with love, I can stand confident.
Posted by Holly on October 31, 2008 at 5:16 am
I read the link, Molly. I understood what you were saying.
It is interesting to me that several feel they need to address what I have said, although there are several others speaking up for the unborn children here and raising the concept that we stand before the Lord. I have not spoken *at all* with disrespect or anger or blame or judgement. I am simply intensely aware that I must stand before the Lord for my actions. In reality, we all must one day. That is not *me* judging someone else, it is *me* simply stating a heart-thumping awareness that governs my choices. If you took anything else from my statements, then it was a mis-reading of my thoughts and intents. Don’t be defensive, if your heart is clear. I answer to the Lord for my actions, you answer for yours. I’m not fighting with anyone here! Have I out and out slandered anyone or called anyone names? No…I have not.
YES, the Lord gives you choices. I believe in free will! I do not take away your freedom to choose a candidate. I only explained my own standing and reasoning.
Posted by Holly on October 31, 2008 at 5:30 am
Tonia, one more…
I am not criticizing you.
Since you asked, I agree that there is more than one front on which to work against abortion. Our Lord can work in so many ways!
I think you are taking direct offense when none is intended. I do love you, my sister, Tonia – for many, many reasons. You probably have no idea how much you influence my family’s days…I use your bread recipes ALL THE TIME!
Have a good day – I’ve got to run now, a very full day here!
Posted by Andrea on October 31, 2008 at 6:03 am
“So, when are you going to write about “sex,” the remaining member of the Holy Trinity of Things You Are Not Supposed To Discuss at the office?”
Now see, here I thought that was religion, politics and The Great Pumpkin . . .
Fascinating discussion. I am sitting in my post-election Canadian armchair on the sidelines, here, and just . . . watching! Much the same as my experience (or lack thereof) would compel me to do should you post about sex, too, Molly . . .
Posted by tonia on October 31, 2008 at 6:13 am
Just speaking for myself here, I addressed you in particular Holly because I know you try to listen to both sides and there is a long history of dialogue on many topics at this site between you and Molly and many others. That’s all.
I absolutely agree that there has been hateful speech coming from the other side towards McCain/Palin and their supporters too, and it’s wrong. I thought this post in particular was about Christians who vote for Obama, however, and that has been what we have been discussing.
I always get a little sheepish in this part of the conversation… why exactly am I online appealing for grace and understanding? *laugh*
Yes, I am confident in my decision, and because of that I will continue to push back when you describe yourself as “speaking up for the unborn” and other language that suggests I and other Obama supporters here are against the unborn.
Frankly, I think the traditional “pro-life” platform is short-sighted and too narrow. It’s as if we’ve sent all our forces to hold back a bulging dam. Some of us want to see if we can go back and divert the river instead.
Because of my family’s involvement with the foster care system for many years, I am keenly aware of what the cycle of poverty, abuse, despair and pain can do. Criminalizing abortion is not going to solve the problems for these families and it’s not going to save their babies. I have held and loved the broken baby of a prostitute who tried and failed to give herself an abortion – a common practice, according to this woman, only she “messed up.”
There is such a massive, bleeding wound in this country around poverty. Such broken people coming from homes of drugs, abuse, ignorance, hate. They need so much more than just another law. (And the babies you save with abortion legislations? They need a lot more too, because rest assured, most of them will not be healthy, happy, “normal.” They will not be born into healthy, happy homes. For every Gianna Jesson there are 10 others – like the baby I described earlier – who will not be adopted by some nice family. )
Most of the people here, claiming to be the voice of the unborn, are focused on one particular moment: the moment of abortion. But there is a whole raging river of sadness and brokenness and distorted outlook behind that moment that needs to be addressed as well. Some of us are leaving the front and going back to see if there’s another way to save lives.
And yes, I stand confidently before the Lord that my choices are right. If the Lord tells each of you to stay at the dam – so be it. But I am not any less a servant of the Lord for seeking out new ways.
Posted by Denise on October 31, 2008 at 6:14 am
What I think is an absolute must read for Christians…excellent article…
Who Will You Vote For?
http://www.daveblackonline.com/who_will_you_vote_for.htm
Posted by tonia on October 31, 2008 at 6:16 am
Holly,
we were posting at the same time. Again, I spoke to you BECAUSE I felt comfortable talking to you.
I am not angry or hurt…just trying to share my side of things…and I have this darned need for acceptance and approval. sigh. *smile*
I know it’s hard to read tone in these comments. I am not bitter/angry/frustrated/hurt. Just talkin’.
love ya,
tonia
Posted by Diane on October 31, 2008 at 6:17 am
Hi Molly
Wow – I have just spent a long time reading all of these posts.
I am in my sixties, a life long Republican (mainly because of the prolife issue) until about 4 yrs. ago when I changed my registration to Democrat. When bombs started falling in Iraq, when Bush declared “mission accomplished”, when there were no WMDs, when Iraqi women and children were being killed, my heart was breaking…. Prolife means so much more than preborn life.
JilmWallis took my thoughts and put them into words, and I am grateful for his ministry.
I am voting for Obama! Is he perfect? Of course not… But he has given me HOPE that our national attitude can change and we can be much more like Matthew 25 requires us to be. And if that means “sharing the wealth” then so be it!!
Diane
Posted by molleth on October 31, 2008 at 7:13 am
If you took anything else from my statements, then it was a mis-reading of my thoughts and intents. Don’t be defensive, if your heart is clear.
Sorry, Holly, I guess I misunderstood. I wasn’t being defensive, either—just trying to communicate, that’s all.
Those last two links (one from E, one from Denise) were sure interesting! I’m not a huge Dave Black fan (the second link), but…yes, EXACTLY.
Kari,
I’m aware that there’s equal blame to spread around, lol, and I think the comments section here does a great job of pointing that out, but the blogs *I’ve* been visiting don’t tend to tell Republicans that they’re evil/stupid if they vote for McCain, it’s generally the other way around—and it’s along the lines of “the world is going to come to an end if Obama wins” sort of stuff, like he’s the antichrist, and the salvation of those who might vote for him is called into question, and then some…so that particular aspect of the campaign this year was on my mind when I wrote this post.
It seems a fairly evangelical Christian thing to equate Republican with Jesus. That’s beginning to be challenged, but it’s still got a long way to go. So this post is reflective of my own personal forays into the blogosphere, where bloggers I love (and will continue to love!) are stumping for the Republican party as if the world depends on it.
Posted by Liesl on October 31, 2008 at 7:51 am
Tonia,
As a mother of adopted children and aunt, I can say there are plenty of good homes for these children born into poverty stricken, drug, abusive homes. I personally know several couples anxiously awaiting children to adopt. That’s why I say the govt. shouldn’t be funding abortions. If a lady doesn’t want her baby then let the govt. pay for her to get care to place the baby for adoption. Several problems solved that way – lady doesn’t have to go thru trauma of abortion, taxpayers will feel better about paying to save a life rather than kill one, and a waiting couple is blessed with a child.
Molly, I know what you mean by some of the extreme right blogs out there that say Christians are going to hell for voting for Obama, but I’ve seen just as many saying Christians are going to hell who vote for McCain because he has woman VP nominee (you know the ones I’m talking about). But I’ve also seen way more liberal blogs and news articles that call McCain/Palin every distasteful thing much like they did to Bush. That’s why I’m an in the middle conservative Christian. I don’t think if a Christian votes for Obama it is a sin. But I definitely don’t understand how a Christian can, because I can’t and it’s not just about abortion. The world isn’t going to come to an end with Obama, but I feel better about my Christian values, national security, and econmoic stability with him not in office.
Our country was going strong economically until the last 2 years when the democrats got hold of both houses. Their promises of a better economic future if only they could get control has ended with worse economic times. We can’t be blind to that.
Diane, I guess you didn’t see the recent news where elements of WMDs were found in Iraq this summer. I completely trust that Bush was operating on the best information possible at the time. Please know that the innocent people being killed in Iraq are by Iraqi insurgents, not by US Soldiers. More soldiers died under Clinton’s 8 years than Bush and Clinton didn’t have 2 wars.
And the Bible says if you have more and someone has less or none then GIVE to him. It doesn’t say someone should TAKE from you and give to someone else. There is no biblical merit in giving if it’s not from the heart. Do you really think that money I’m giving to Christian charities should be given to less causes. I’d rather charity be done in the name of Jesus than in the name of Obama/Uncle Sam.
Great discussions. Much better than the extreme sights I see.
Posted by Liesl on October 31, 2008 at 7:56 am
Oh, I meant to post this link to a great article on the election. Molly, thank you for allowing so many people to use your blog to discuss or vent their ideas respectfully. May God bless you.
http://babymcgeeintennessee.blogspot.com/2008/10/letter-from-huntley-brown.html
Posted by molleth on October 31, 2008 at 8:07 am
Hey, Liesl, it’s for purely selfish reasons: I’m enjoying listening to everyone’s thoughts and reading the links.
Posted by tonia on October 31, 2008 at 8:09 am
Liesl,
I am also an adoptive mother of a drug and alcohol affected child, as well as the sister of two drug and alcohol affected brothers.
I’ve seen some wonderful adoptive homes out there. And you’re right, there’s a lot of homes willing to adopt healthy infants. The ones willing to adopt broken, older children are in short supply however. Check the state by state waiting lists of special needs kids (and special needs doesn’t just indicate downs syndrome, etc. for those who don’t know, it also reflects drug and alcohol effects and attachment disorders, etc.)
Every week my inbox holds letters from adoptive parents who are struggling horrifically with the ramifications of raising broken kids. I can testify that it is terribly hard work. I don’t have the statistics at hand, but plenty of those homes break up and the kids are returned to foster care. I’ve seen it personally.
My own son was the sixth child born to a 21 year old woman. He was the only one adopted out. The rest are continuing the cycle of despair.
I only say all this to point out that the idea that every abortion could be replaced with a happy adoption is naive. There is a HUGE problem out there and stopping abortion is only part of the solution.
Kari’s statistics above indicate there are 97,000 abortions a month. Think of it: that is 97,000 girls every single month who feel desperate enough to kill their babies. Who are these girls? Why are they so desperate? You can’t write them all off as selfish, hard-hearted and hateful. We have to start looking at the whole picture of abortion.
Posted by Andrea on October 31, 2008 at 9:03 am
“Check the state by state waiting lists of special needs kids (and special needs doesn’t just indicate downs syndrome, etc. for those who don’t know, it also reflects drug and alcohol effects and attachment disorders, etc.)”
“Special needs” is also the term that many states apply to sibling groups of three or more children who need to be placed together, simply because it’s almost as difficult to find homes for large sibling groups as it is to find homes for children with RAD and the like. I incline toward adopting a sibling group, myself, but I do understand it’s not for everyone; it just makes me sad that these children are considered special needs simply by virtue of their needing to maintain a connection with their siblings.
I also have to say, I am sure nothing was meant by it, but I do flinch when I hear people refer to adoption as a less traumatic option for the birthmother. Several of my family members are adopted, both into and out of the family. Surrendering a baby for adoption can be (and has been) a deeply traumatic experience for the parent and child both; it is not a happy cure-all for abortion, nice though it would be to believe that it is.
Posted by Andrea on October 31, 2008 at 9:04 am
Just realised it might look like my whole post is a reply to that one quote; it isn’t, just the first paragraph is
Posted by Julia on October 31, 2008 at 10:43 am
Leisl, I enjoy reading your comments, your points are well made.
Tonia, you sound like an extraordinary person, and my prayers are with you in the good work that you do. It is indeed a broken world we have to deal with.
What I’ve understood from many of these comments is that if you are pro-life for the unborn you should be pro-life for all.
I agree.
This argument makes the point that this election is not a one-issue election on abortion law.
This is about how we value life in our society as a whole.
How then does Obama qualify when he votes to the left of abortion advocates? How do we know he will value any life as President, when he does not value the life of the most innocent among us?
What I understand is that most people who vote for him, hope he will do what he says. But, they are ignoring what he has already done.
How is it that this man’s words speak louder than his actions?
He blocked legislation in his state that would have saved the lives of infants who survive an abortion.
This doesn’t just tell us what he would do with our laws–it tells us what he believes about life.
Obama may sound as if he’s pro-life by promising government largesse, but when he’s faced with hard choices (no leader remains untested), what does his record show he would do?
He says, he says, he says…but what has he done?
If he had to choose between subsidizing an abortion clinic or a pregnancy crisis center–which would he choose?
The scenarios are endless. Which is why our leaders should value life from beginning to end.
The arguments are not pro-life against pro-life.
Obama has proven he is not pro-life. His actions have proven it. His words mean nothing.
Posted by Diane on October 31, 2008 at 11:38 am
Liesl
I guess you missed the news reporting that American soldiers killed whole families of Iraqis in retaliation for roadside bombs.
I don’t believe Bush acted on the intelligence he had at the time. Much more intelligence was not given to congress that discounted the Bush intelligence. It was his plan to bomb Iraq as soon as he was elected. Sept. 11, 2001 gave him the reason, even though that awful day in New York had NOTHING to do with Iraq!
Andrea
I wokred in thef field of infant adoption for 12 years and I totally agree with your observation that adoption is not an easy choice for a birthfamily. It is an intense struggle for a birthfamily and a lifelong issue for the child. My family and I fostered 20 preadoptive infants. Some were returned to the birthfamily at their request and some were adopted. A birthmother that makes an adoptive decision needs support from her family, her friends and adoption professionals. Many birthmothers don’t have that.
Diane
Posted by Diane on October 31, 2008 at 11:50 am
Sorry Liesl. I should not have written that note to you the way I did. It sounds a bit spiteful and i dislike comments that sound like that. Forgive me…
Diane
Posted by Liesl on October 31, 2008 at 12:04 pm
Andrea and Diane, one of my children’s birthmothers also had an abortion and she’ll tell you how much better she feels doing the adoption. And the security in knowing the life she created is in a good home. I’ll agree that alot of birthmoms don’t have the support, that is why I was saying I’d rather see the govt. help these moms birth and raise these infants than help them kill these infants. Yes, adoption is not an easy choice but it should be an easier choice than abortion. Life over death.
Diane – we’ll just have to agree to disagree over the war and Bush. I see Bush’s heart as good and working to protect this country. That doesn’t mean his perfect or that the troops he commands don’t make mistakes or bad choices themselves.
Julia – great points about Obama’s record!
The facts are that McCain values all life and Obama only values life that has been born. Obama is driving a wedge in this country and creating class warfare.
McCain has fought and will continue to fight for our country to make it safer and better. Obama has repeatedly criticized our country and wants to make it like all other countries.
McCain has a proven record of reaching across the aisle to do what’s right for the American people. Obama had never even tried and yet he claims to be hope and change when he won’t even put his hand out in the middle.
Posted by molleth on October 31, 2008 at 12:45 pm
http://mommylife.net/archives/2008/10/obama_campaign_1.html
If (if) this is from a legit Obama campaign worker, it’s very interesting.
Posted by tonia on October 31, 2008 at 12:52 pm
Julia,
i hear what you are asking and i do see the logic of it. i say this not because your questions change my mind, but because i know how important it is to really be *heard* in these discussions. I hear the love and compassion and true bewilderment in people who think my obama vote is crazy.
i told Kari in one of my first comments that i didn’t want to come online and get into this because it is so complicated and convoluted and so very hard for me to explain succinctly what i believe and how i am viewing this election. i went far beyond what i wanted to already. ( and i have to tell you – i stink at political arguments.
i am much better at speaking about relationships and people’s needs.)
please forgive me for bowing out now. i hate to think this will come off that i cannot come up with a logical argument when pressed…but i also am weary enough of the whole discussion (the longest election season in history!!) to not care.
we disagree on obama. we agree on life. that works for me.
Posted by Diane on October 31, 2008 at 5:05 pm
God Bless you Tonia. I agree with you that perhaps it is time to bow out… I will be voting with you next Tuesday.
Diane
Posted by Cassandra on November 1, 2008 at 4:08 am
Holly has penned the words that I feel. I agree %100 totally with her!
- and while I haven’t commented in a while, I still read your posts, and I still disagree with %93.7 of them, Molly! = )
Posted by GrammaMack on November 2, 2008 at 12:39 pm
“If he had to choose between subsidizing an abortion clinic or a pregnancy crisis center–which would he choose?” Obama has already said that he will discontinue all funding for pregnancy crisis centers. This, along with his voting record and his vow to Planned Parenthood to sign the Freedom of Choice Act, proves that he is not pro-choice but pro-abortion.
Posted by Emily on November 2, 2008 at 2:38 pm
I just wanted to make it clear that I voted for McCain/Palin for many reasons grounded in convictions of my own Christian beliefs. These things are personal, of course to each one of us.
I wouldn’t call a brother or sis in Christ an idiot for voting for Obama, but there are some questions I have concerning that vote:
How do you square the abortion issue?
How do you support a candidate who believes in redistribution when we as Christians are supposed to work and not be dependent so that we can be in a position to help others? (You can argue that we are supposed to be willing to give to the deserving and undeserving. . . but that, to me, has more to do with IF that is required of us and being loving and not bitter in fulfilling that requirement. Welfare and redistribution does not equate to Christian charity.)
Those just being two issues I think on. . .
Regardless, we each are given freewill to decide. And voting for Obama will not get you into Hell. Not believing in Christ as your Saviour will get you into hell.
But voting Obama into the Presidency may get us to hell a lot sooner than we thought. . . just kidding. Sort of! : )
Posted by Emily on November 2, 2008 at 7:13 pm
Okay, I won’t visit this thread again. But the more I think about it, I will not call a fellow bro or sis in Christ an idiot for voting for Obama/Biden, but I WOULD question your wisdom. Perhaps you might be naive or you see something that the rest of us don’t. We could talk on and on about little bitty issues, but the larger picture is ultimately what matters.
There’s just too much we do not know about Obama because he won’t answer or he changes his tune. And I feel he’s been terribly irresponsible in the way he’s run his “highly organized” campaign. . . the amount of money, the media out of control, his connections, him calling on McCain to hold back the attacks and yet him telling his supporters to get in the faces of their opponents and argue, his taking back his word time and time again, he’s yelled “racist” and had his supporters yell “racist” for simply opposing him while he himself attended a “church” where whites are talked about like the enemy. . . This is not a man to be trusted. See this video posted at a Hillary supporter’s website:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16aBNduAyQ4
No candidate is perfect, and Jesus is always our King no matter what as Tonia posted. But that is no reason to sit back and be inactive and go with the wave because you feel hopeless or that you should just throw up your hands in “peace”. Inaction would be a sin.
Posted by The Fat Triplets » My Final Argument - Part 2b - Why Not McCain / Palin? on November 3, 2008 at 10:25 am
[...] convinced me not to vote for Obama. I can tell you right now, I would do like a favorite blogger, Molly and vote third party before I would risk putting Sarah Palin a heartbeat away from the Oval Office. If McCain wins this [...]
Posted by Election day « Windblown Hope on November 4, 2008 at 1:48 am
[...] glad when this is over, but I think the debates will go on for quite a while after this election. Molly had a post on the election the other day and the number of responses were amazing. It seems that [...]
Posted by DeeAnn on November 6, 2008 at 1:45 pm
Ok folks. It’s been recorded for all of eternity. It wasn’t just a quick move on the part of a court. We have it on record in heaven and not just over the race for president. America wants abortion. Every major abortion initiative failed. Americans want to sacrifice their babies to Mammon and Moloch.
Therefore we will be judged.
What did you do to stop this from happening?
Posted by Deborah on November 6, 2008 at 2:38 pm
Ok, I voted McCain/Palin. i even put a sign in my yard despite the misgivings that most any ticket has given me since my youth. I AM terribly concerned about Obama for many reasons but also consider it my duty to speak blessing (in addition to truth), to pray for him, etc., now that he is elected.
In that spirit, and trying to bridge the divide with my fellow poets at an online site, poets who almost across the board were tireless volunteers in his campaign, I posted the following comments drawing on the (slim but significant) good things I had sensed about him:
“Well, congratulations folks. I can say that I am relieved not to have the election drag on in some limbo place for weeks or months. It is also good to see that America is above the racism, and Obama will be in my prayers. ”
And a little later:
“P.S.–That is not to say there is not racism here. There IS. I, for one, still see confederate flags displayed on my street (and cannot readily accept that it is an innocent high five to southern pride). Yet I have not personally met a single person who has intimated that race would keep them from voting from Obama, even through in-between-the-lines facial expressions and the like. And, obviously, it did not prove to be a final impediment. On the other hand, I know some for whom Palin’s gender was a stumbling block. A supposedly moderate major evangelical theologian and leader, one whom I really respect on nearly every issue save gender, recently issued a rather tortured statement titled something like, “Why Women Should not Run for Vice President but Wise Men May Still Vote for Them.” (Thanks for the permission.) Sigh. Well, we’re getting there. And, on that note, I’d like to say that back during the NH primaries a thought came to me which seemed sort of odd considering that Obama was pitted against Hillary: Namely, I thought to myself, with only the barest knowledge at that time of who Obama was or anything about his family life, “This man has a degree of righteous power because he has honored the women in his life, and that is what will give him the edge. He is destined to influence this nation. In order for disparate voices to have strength in this season, they will need to elevate the honor of women far more as well. It is the era for women.” It was a very strong sense that, odd is it might seem, along with Barak’s emergence would/must come an era for women (I even thought of the Biblical story of Barak and Deborah). This is one of the reasons Palin interested me (not in terms of manipulating votes but in terms of what I call “righteous” power in line with my thinking that there is a God who cares about these things and that much/all of politics is based on a mixture of “righteous” and “unrighteous” power).
Again, congratulations to all here who worked so tirelessly to participate in our democracy.”
I, for one, believe a lot of unrighteous power is involved with Obama as well, but it didn’t seem to be the time to harp on that again. And we can pray for conversions on key moral issues especially among him and those he would appoint. And remember the checkered history of Israel’s kings.
And in response to someone:
“Hi Alison, I had a rather opposite reaction listening to him at the previous democratic national convention. I knew he was THE next star on the D scene but was concerned at what struck me at that time as a good deal of rage combined with his undeniable charisma and the fact that I disagree with some D principles (as I do some R). I figured he would be molded over the next years and emerge again but paid no attention to him in the interim.
Anyhow, I cannot say I am happy about yesterday’s results, but I am glad for those good points (down to racism, up to people feeling connected to our country, etc.) that it displays. Really concerned about policy, but we’ll see how it all pans out…. And it is a charming family. It will be good to see the girls in the White House.”
May God redeem the situation before us.
Humbly yours,
Deb
Posted by Emily on November 7, 2008 at 6:03 am
As for how race played out in this election. . .
There was no hidden white racial bias in this presidential election. See news story:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081107/ap_on_el_pr/polls_obama_race;_ylt=Ao1J.ma0FlvNgBcDVb1GD0Rh24cA
Whereas the real racists were most likely blacks: 96% turned out for Obama. Can it be said that blacks really truly support abortion, a procedure that some claim to be genocide of the blacks in this country? I have a hard time believing that 96% of them approve of abortion. . . they just couldn’t get over the color of Obama’s skin despite the obvious character questions.
When you vote for someone based on the color of their skin instead of the content of their character, you are still bathed in racism.
Oddly enough, the civil rights issue of race didn’t help any with the civil rights issue of homosexuality. Look what happened in California. . . apparently blacks came out to vote almost 70% against Prop 8. I find this interesting in the way of civil rights.
I saw on here that someone wrote that Obama offered our nation HOPE. Listen up, fellow Christians who place your HOPE in Obama. . . I’m officially rebuking you now. Come to your senses!!! The sheer number of people who voted for Obama because he offered “HOPE” is evidence that we are a world HUNGRY for REAL HOPE. . . And where should our hope be placed? In Christ ONLY. Obama will not save us. Only Christ transcends times and governments. You are wrong to HOPE in Obama. Our only HOPE is CHRIST.
If Obama saves the world, alleviates suffering completely worldwide for all humans (including the unborn ones), then I will be sorry I opposed him. I highly doubt he will bring about the Hope you wish for though.
When a man starts trying to play the part of the world’s messiah, something is amiss, and it’s evil. And naive.
We squawk against the capitalism in our society, especially those on the lefty left. But truly, our nation’s voters bought the brand product that looked the flashiest and had the most “flair”. . . now we will all pay in some way or another.
Regardless, we cannot allow the ministry of Christ to go bust here in America. As the secular government squeezes out our arenas of ministry and replaces it with increased civic and welfare programming, we must continue to share the only source of TRUE, REDEEMING HOPE that offers a better life no matter how rich or poor you are: Jesus Christ. Let’s hold hands together again and get all around doing our ministry for Christ!
Emily
Posted by E on November 7, 2008 at 6:29 am
The following (unedited) is from a secondhand acquaintance, who long ago received prophetic visions that the U.S. as a nation would have God’s hand of protection lifted from it after Bush’s Presidency ended. Give it as much or as little credence as you wish:
I am going to sermonize again. This time on some observations of not only today put in general. I will not reply to questions of this post.
Since I believe time is short, I am going to address the 25% of the true Christians out there. I have shared with this forum over the years the visions God as granted me for the upcoming upheaval He is going to create. Yet for some reason it has been my personal observation the people in general of all persuasions and types, believe that life goes on and in the usual cyclic manners as always. People expect the stock market to come back and rise as always. That Obama and the Tranzis are like all presidents and people and they too will pass. As Christians, we believe we are all sinners saved by Grace and have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. That when the Holy Spirit speaks we all know and understand it because we have the same sprit. We believe that we are spiritually connected and can pray via the spirit to anyone, anything, anywhere. Now consider that all of those who supported Obama all sound the same. Since I believe that Lucifer is supernatural, I believe that the glamor of evil and spirit of evil that surrounds and is in these people make them all sound just alike. It also seems that everyone fails to understand the age and time we are in. All heads are buried in the sand and do not seem to want to deal with reality.
One of the indication of the end of the age is that truth will become lie, an lie will become truth, that God will sear the hearts and minds of those not of Him, and people will look and not see, listen but not hear, perceive but not understand. To me this past election underscores this tenet. (Hi woof) Everything (100%) God has shown me and that I have shared with this forum and others has come true. With that in mind, you are again warned that God’s Wrath will be poured out on this country and you will know it could only have been God. The age and times we are living in do not allow for life as usual even though the Bible says that is what people will be living like when Christ returns again in total judgement mode. Those 25% of you true Christians need to get ready. Pray for the other 75% of those who claim to be Christian, and are not. There are a lot of tares and wolves in sheep’s clothing in the church and all those who voted for Obama have been unmasked and exposed. There are many more. The reason for the praying is that it is obvious the deception has started and if they fell for it so early on they will fall deeper and quicker as it intensifies. Only God know for sure who can and will turn it around and be saved. As a side note, last night, I was playing a computer game to try and relax because I did not want to know about the election results. At about 2130, I asked the Lord if McCain had won. I was told he did not. I then asked the Lord when His punishment would come. He said soon. Sorry, that is all I got. Soon in God’s time could be 21 Jan 09 to years from now. My personal speculation is by the end of 2009 since I was told and shown the lid blows off by then. Fact is I don’t know.
My major concern and observation is that people, especially the 25% of true Christians seem not to be aware of the times we are in and preparing accordingly. The new world order is around the corner. I would not be surprised in the least that Obama is to the anti-christ what John the Baptist was to Christ. He is at the minimum a leader raised up to display the Glory of God to America since they believe they have finally voted out and got rid of God from this country. My mother who was born and raised in Germany from 1926 to 1948 has dubbed Obama the “Black Hitler.”
Finally as an ordained watchman of the church by God Himself, I must tell you these things, because if I do not, then your blood will be on my head. Now, if you ignore the warning, your blood is on your own head. God Bless, and guide you because without Him you be dead in more ways than one.
Posted by Moan-nica on November 7, 2008 at 7:21 am
sometimes, i wish i did vote for Obama just so when Christians asked me, i could say so and watch the terror in their eyes. lol. i am so rotten. please pray for me.
i am actually the chief of sinners, cause i didnt vote at all. i was so confused, and too busy with life to even follow the post-nominations hub-a-ba-loo. then, i missed the voter registration deadline. i was too busy reading more self-help books and playing with my kids, something i had forgotten to do for the last 10 years i even watched some TV…there are some REALLY COOL shows on in 2008….and the rock i was living under, and allowing myself to be crushed by, well, it really left my head hurting! now i am here blogging about all the things that stir around inside me. i really wanted to vote independent. i always do. this year, i really was gonna though. but i got behind on cleaning and groceries and rearrnaging my kids room and now the leaf-picker-upper-dude is coming and my leaves arent raked. and im sitting here on the computer.
do you think god will forgive me?
it is great to not feel guilty about things i should-coulda-woulda done. i think right now, that is my lesson, and my way of looking at it. it wastes a LOT LESS TIME and ENERGY.
Moan-nica, OUT!
Posted by E on November 7, 2008 at 1:04 pm
I suspect that Barack O., after he’s had his Area 51 intelligence briefing, will have a change of tune in any “radical” plans or actions he wanted to take. :^)
Posted by molleth on November 7, 2008 at 1:15 pm
E,
So…what do you personally think of your friend’s sermon/prophecy?
Posted by E on November 7, 2008 at 1:34 pm
I’ll tell you by email.
Posted by Catherine on November 7, 2008 at 1:43 pm
In response to Emily’s comment above – I don’t think it’s fair to malign black voters for choosing Obama on the basis of race. I don’t put my hope in Obama (that, as Emily said, belongs to Christ alone), but his election *has* made me hopeful about many things. I am not black, but I am a person of color, and I have experienced the ugly sting of racism firsthand. The fact that our nation will now have a black president demonstrates, to me, that our nation is moving forward and making an effort to heal deep racial wounds. I have always thought of myself as an American. Now, I am convinced that others can see me that way, too.
I don’t believe it’s right to reject someone as a candidate on the basis of his or her race. Nor do I believe that it is okay to consistently vote for candidates just *because* of their race. But in a campaign with two qualified candidates, with the chance to truly make history – I think “affirmative action” in this case (if that is in fact what even happened) – is *not* the equivalent of racism. It is *not* the equivalent of the very real and damaging oppression minorities have experienced in this country.
I think it is profoundly condescending to assume that the black community doesn’t know its own interests. I think, perhaps, that there are many people who, like myself, abhor the idea of abortion-as-birth-control, but who also believe that the best solutions are not necessarily, or only, legislative in nature but based on access to contraception, better education for teens, more substantial support for single mothers, etc. I don’t know if my viewpoint is something a “real” Christian can adhere to. I pray earnestly about it.
Posted by molleth on November 7, 2008 at 2:12 pm
E,
Thanks. I just saw them in my inbox.
Catherine, I agree with you in many ways.
For example, I think abortion-as-birth-control is wrong. Many, on the right, left, and central, religous or not, all agree that abortion is by NO means an ideal practice. Followers of Christ tend to, by and large, find the practice of abortion to be far from the pre-Fall ideal. Here’s the big point: What we may disagree on is the practial means and methods and opinions for explaning the rate of abortions and for lowering/eliminating abortion. Again, just to really make a point:
We don’t disagree on the central issue, we disagree on the why-and-how end of things.
I find it arrogant and WAY out of line for one person to call another person’s faith into question simply because they disagree on the how and the why.
Posted by tonia on November 7, 2008 at 2:51 pm
Catherine,
i’m a *real* christian and i agree with you. *smile*
tonia
Posted by molleth on November 8, 2008 at 10:15 am
http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-110708-patrol-magazines-commentary-on-the-family-research-councils-scare-tactics
For those still following this thread, here’s a link that (I think) fully applies to the original post here and much of the commentary…
Posted by jill on November 8, 2008 at 11:54 am
Molly, thanks so much for posting the link from the IM. I’ve passed it on to my husband, who is currently contending with threatened disownment from his parents(who’ve bought into the FRC, hook, line, and sinker) for voting for Obama, and this is causing him considerable frustration and grief.
I think IM did a wonderful job in describing the risks of conflating a political party’s platform with the tenets of Christianity. If one’s understanding of their faith lends itself towards supporting a particular party, so be it, but as illustrated above, individual faith and earthly concerns lead all of us to different choices in this area and we must resist judging others when their interpretations lead them differently.
Posted by molleth on November 8, 2008 at 12:55 pm
A friend of mine who has come from (and out of) the Far Right was mulling over things with me and said this, which was so poignant that I will quote it (anonymously, so she doesn’t get burned at the stake) here:
I distinctly remember when bill clinton – smooth southern charmer that he is – was the antichrist. I suppose his ego is going to be troubled by obama’s new title.
And may i just say this – although there are many good and godly things about our nation:
In this country we have made peace treaties with native peoples, then broken them and killed them and left their culture to rot.
We built our nation on the backs of black slaves.
We oppressed women and children whenever it was expedient.
We murdered black boys for looking at white girls the wrong way and allowed racism to breed freely.
We accept torture as an acceptable interrogation policy.
Our leaders lie and steal and deceive to promote their agendas.
We are war-mongers.
We worship the god of our stomachs and our lusts.
We promote the false gospel of prosperity.
And all this at one time or another has been true for 200 years of our history. But NOW. now, that Obama is president, we are going to be judged by God.
Setting aside the fact that God poured out His wrath on Jesus at the cross and I don’t believe He judges nations in an OT sense any more…..
this whole thing is crazy.
If we are going to be judged, we are going to be judged for a hell of a lot more than abortion (which has been around since women have been getting pregnant, btw) and the conservatives are going to have to accept some part of the wrath.
Btw….i read this [verse below] yesterday and was just floored – you mean, the sin of sodom wasn’t homosexuality? Thank you so much fundamentalism for telling the truth [as in, in fundie circles we learn young that homosexuality is the WORST of all the sins, etc, and Sodom is used as the primary example]. How am i supposed to keep from judgement when you don’t even tell me what the real problem is?
Ez 16: 49-50
“Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had (A)arrogance, (B)abundant food and (C)careless ease, but she did not help the (D)poor and needy.
50″Thus they were haughty and committed (E)abominations before Me Therefore I (F)removed them when I saw it. ”
My friend’s comments have enough in them for me to think about for the next month…year… Very very powerful words.
Posted by molleth on November 8, 2008 at 12:56 pm
PS.
jill,
I’m glad I can be of support. Yeesh. Hope your husband survives! ((hugs))
Posted by Deborah on November 8, 2008 at 1:12 pm
*Excellent* post, Molly. Though I don’t find any reason to dismiss the idea that He judges nations. Though perhaps that would be for your friend to substantiate, not you. I know grace came through the cross, but I don’t think that obliterates that aspect of His nature. I, too, have been trying to point out the focus o what the sins of Sodom were about at core.
Posted by Deborah on November 8, 2008 at 1:34 pm
As for internet monk, the article he points to in “Patrol” is much more balanced and substantiated than his own musings, imo.
I’ve begun reading a book, “Reaching the Left from the Right” by a one-time writer for Focus on the Family’s California newsletters, Barbara Curtis–a former ultra liberal and hippie herself. While it presupposes that Christians will be more right than left, it makes good, basic points about engaging society mindfully and compassionately.
Posted by E on November 8, 2008 at 2:55 pm
Molleth:
Re: the sins of Sodom:
Josephus seems to have regarded the city’s sins as a combination of Ezekiel’s charges and homosexual practices: Antiquities of the Jews Book 1 Chapter 11.
Philo does, too, but he seems to emphasize the sexual perversion: On Abraham XXVI (133 – 138).
Posted by molleth on November 9, 2008 at 6:44 pm
Interesting, E. I don’t think that Sodom’s sins did *not* include deviant sexual practices, but the message that I got from the fundie hood was that the problem was ALL the sexual aspect.
Hey, here’s a great article from a Jesus lover on why she voted for Obama this election:
http://bottomland.typepad.com/bottomland/2008/11/a-passionate-plea-from-caren-late-at-night.html
Posted by Liesl on November 10, 2008 at 6:31 pm
Interesting to see the discussion still going. Like many, while I’m saddened that McCain didn’t win, I will respect Obama as my president.
I have to agree with Emily that many many blacks voted for Obama simply based on skin color. There are countless interviews done that evidenced that and from my personal experience with my firends of color who said they sadly knew people who were voting for him simply because he was black.
Molly, I find your friend has some good comments but I disagreed with half of them. Yes, for 200 years America has been full of sinful people and has made mistakes. Yet, we continue to be the absolute most generous nation on earth and give the most to world disasters. And we are not war mongers – every was is in defense of ourselves or other countries. It’s sad to hear that even Christian Americans take for granted our liberty.
I agree that America is headed for or in judgement for the Godlessness that is filling our country. And Christians stand by and watch and Obama supports much of it, even though he claims to be a Christian. That is why I couldn’t vote for him – his lack of moral character to call sin sin.
I read the link of why a Christian voted Obama – same story I’ve heard from my friends -they think Obama cares more about the needy and the environment. I see 2 big flaws in that – that is a wrong assumption that McCain didn’t care simply because republicans have different ideas on how to help the poor. The Bible tells US to give to the needy – not the government to give to the needy. Obama gave only 1% of his income – Bush was the most generous of Washington polilticians and yet Bush is not considered to care for the needy. You know the saying – where you pocketbook is there your heart is. I don’t doubt that Obamas wants to help the poor. But you can’t use the bible as an argument that the government should be doing what we are to individually do in God’s name. Also, Obama doesn’t just want to help the truly poor and needy, his plan will bankrupt us while “helping” the lazy. The Bible says to not be idle. So more of my money will be going to the government and less going directly to the truly needy in the name of Christ.
I think everyone wants to care for the environment, but the problem with the left is they care more about a tree than a baby. How come a Christian can vote to help save a tree, but not to help keep more babies from being killed. While Obama agrees abortion isn’t ideal, he doesn’t admit it’s sin and wants to give more money to the cause. I’m not one to believe in all the “end times” stuff. But I do know that one sign is that good will be called evil (Christians, Bush, speaking against homosexuality, abortion, spreading the gospel is offensive) and evil will be called good (gay marriage, choice, pornography and profane language against America/Bush is called free speech). It’s hard for me to see why anyone would want to align themselves with that.
Posted by E on November 10, 2008 at 7:59 pm
My parents are no doubt extremely pleased with the election results, as are my brother and sister and 2 of our 3 children.
(Hey, you can pick your friends, but you can’t pick your relatives, right?)
Anyway, when we see them this month, if the election results come up in conversation (usually a no man’s land – i.e., my parents know better than to praise liberal Democrats in my presence – but my mom always tries to make some remark somehow), my answer (if I don’t just nod my head and barf or belch) will be something like:
“You know, if at the end of four years my taxes are lower, the jobless rate is lower, the quality of health care is better, Israel is still secure, and we haven’t been attacked by terrorists, I’ll really consider voting for Obama when he runs for re-election.
“But if your taxes go up, or if you find the quality of your health care declining, or if we get attacked by terrorists, or if Israel is seriously weakened or destroyed (my parents are Jewish, and like “good Jews” will always or almost always vote Democratic no matter who is running), I don’t want to hear any whining or complaining from you, because that’s exactly what you voted for.”
:^)
On second thought, I think I’ll just fill my mouth with food and pretend I didn’t hear her.
Posted by molleth on November 10, 2008 at 9:01 pm
I’m secretly happy that Obama won, in that I would truly like to see his administration succeed, IF he is actually the kind of man that his speeches claim he is. I hope and pray that he’s actually legit, and not simply mouthing out nice-sounding words from a top-rate speech writer. Only time will tell.
Posted by Obama Ushers in End Times (Missional Musings on Faith and Politics) « adventures in mercy on November 12, 2008 at 3:27 pm
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