Obama Ushers in End Times (Missional Musings on Faith and Politics)

Edit, Evening 11/12, to add a few more links at the bottom of this post. 

I hear this often.  The lack of a Republican president means that the end times, ala the Left Behind series, are upon us.  Those who voted for Obama are “false Christians,” now exposed.  Yeah, those are just some of the nicer things that have been said. 

My last post about Obama resulted in quite the comment exchange.  I want to respond carefully, because I recognize that all sides and spectrum’s have valuable contributions to the conversation.  My problem lies primarily with the lack of many conservative evangelicals to see that non-conservative-evangelicals may have thoughts and opinions worth listening to.  In some circles, “Obama = Satan” appears to be as coherant as the argument gets.  Please note that this is not the same thing as simply disagreeing with Obama’s policies or viewing things differently than the Democratic party does.  It’s wholly and whole-heartedly different.  

Obama is said to be the forerunner to the anti-christ, though some speculate he’s the anti-christ himself.  One blogger said that he just looked evil.  Commenter’s agreed and added more adjectives of their own, while simultaneously chastising all those who did not fulfil their “Biblical obligation” to respect authority when it came to Bush.  The sheer irony of their behavior appeared lost to all participants.  

Another blogger said that she was able to maintain a sense of peace by shutting off the TV and radio every time anything about Obama came on.   She was afraid of being swayed by his hypnotic voice and protected herself accordingly.  Her commenter’s praised her wisdom and wished they had done the same.  The word, “ostrich” comes to mind?  Since when is the illusion of inward peace maintained through purposeful denial considered godly? 

I have written before about my paradigm shift, about my former status as a culture warrior and the subsequent burning of my draft card.  The liberal and secular readers here will probably laugh, but those of you who come from a conservative background will likely nod your heads with understanding (or gnash your teeth at my audacity). 

I literally thought that God wanted me to war against my culture.  I believed that culture was out to get me, out to get my kids, out to get my church. I mistakenly forgot the real enemy, and thought it was my culture instead, unlike God, who knew exactly what the real problem was when He came down INTO an equally-fallen culture.  He saturated Himself in it, unafraid to pal around with the worst of the lot and, interestingly, the only ones He had a real problem with were the ones righteously abstaining from said culture. 

There was a time when I looked at even the innocent Christmas tree with suspicion, as if its lights and baubles were demons in disguise.  I wrote about that here, and it’s perhaps the most concise post I have ever written describing the real essence of my paradigm shift from one gospel to another.

You see, the foundational message of the culture warriors is that Jesus doesn’t save by grace through faith (Eph. 2).  Proper performance, however, will get you everything.

And when we embrace that lie, rarely put into such bold words but woven into far too many conservative evangelical messages, the power of the Gospel is diffused, if not altogether lost. Instead, we become peddlers of a empty-but-righteous-feeling human philosophy, partakers of an empty-but-safe-feeling human institution.  Agreed, feeling safe is very satisfying.  That doesn’t make it always wise.  The frog in the pot of water feels safe, even good, while being slowly boiled alive.  

I am becoming more and more convinced that the lie is found lovely precisely because of how it makes us feel.  When performance is a prerequisite for approval, ”the cross of Christ is made of no effect (Gal. 5).”  But who cares?  I don’t need Him as long as I have that wonderful wonderful feeling of control. 

Everything about this runs completely contradictory to what Jesus did by coming to this earth.  Have we become followers of another gospel?

“…What He did, joining spiritual to earthly, is the essence of what we are called to now – a life where the heavenly and the temporal join, kiss, blend – where our lives are the expression of this Other Way, this Love that isn’t afraid of the dark, doesn’t judge by human status codes, and is not defined by what lips and teeth declare.”     —full post here 

We talk about how we love the homosexual but hate the sin, yet then go on to speak as if the homosexual is an alien from another planet (or an enemy seeking to devour us) instead of a real person with a real life with a real heart and real dreams.  We pretend to be Biblical, blowing up the verses about sexual purity into bold type, large face, because we follow the Bible, we are a holy people…while drowning out the surrounding verses that talk about walking with mercy and gentleness, conveniently ignoring the warnings to remove the plank from our own eye before going after the mote in our neighbors.  

We give lip service to the idea that the gospel transcends earthly kingdoms and then proceed to tell fellow Believers that they aren’t true Christians unless they vote for the political party we say is on God’s side.  What has happened to us?  Have we forgotten the story of Israel’s leader, Joshua, hand-selected by Yahweh Himself, when he lost perspective on who was supposed to be on what side? 

Now it came about when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, a man was standing opposite him with his sword drawn in his hand, and Joshua went to him and said to him, “Are you for us or for our adversaries?”

And he said, “No, rather I indeed come now as captain of the host of the Lord.”  And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and bowed down, and said to him, “What has my lord to say to his servant?”  –Joshua 5 

God isn’t on our side fighting against our culture.  And if we’re fighting against our culture, we can pretty much bet, we’re fighting a battle that God isn’t in.  God isn’t against humanity, nor is He against human culture.  “The Son of man came to seek and to save that which is lost (Luke 19:10).”  He didn’t withdraw from them because they were filthy, but lifted up His robes and started washing. 

Our God isn’t the kind who stays up in the pristine high and lofty places, passing jugdment with no awareness of what it feels like to live in skin, to be bound by bones and tendons and a heart that is ever at war with itself.  Our God is a kind who dives down right into the disaster, right into the pain, right into the blood and the tears and the sweat. 

He didn’t hold back, pinching His nose at the ooze of human culture, but jumped smack into the sea of it.  He didn’t speak from an ivory palace, but in the midst of the noisy smelly throngs.  He didn’t withhold from the multitudes because they were greedy, but fed them anyway—fed them more than their stomachs could hold.  He didn’t turn away from the leper because he was unlovely, but healed him.  He didn’t reject the children because they were bothering Him at an inappropriate time, but opened His arms to them.  

And He dragged His followers with Him in the process (calming down their shocked expressions as necessary). 

Aren’t we His followers too?  So I am left with the difficulty of realizing that there isn’t a gentle way to put it.  The fact is, when we adopt a posture of consigning our culture to hell and washing our hands of the mess (hoping for a pre-Trib rapture, to boot), shaming the broken for daring to be broken and maintaining a good safe distance between us and them, or putting our hopes in the kind of power that comes from a political kingdom, we have missed the heart of the incarnation and the power of the cross.    

You who have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 

For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.

For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision [or the Republican or Democratic ticket] means anything, but faith working through love. 

You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?

This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you.  –Galatians 5    

 I would rather take the position of a follower who, sure, maybe needs her shocked expressions calmed down from time to time, than a follower who can’t follow because she despises the path He walks. 

 

*For further reading, please see The Death of Religion, an excellent commentary (particularly the second half), A Primer on the Missional Church for a link-fest of further reflections on embracing a missional gospel instead of being a culture-warrior, folks who are actually doing it, and beyond.

**New Links Added: For those interested more in this paradigm shift from culture warrior to Jesus-in-the-midst-of-it thinking, please do not miss The Blind Beggar’s excellent site, Friend of MIssional, full of provocative Christ-seeking essays and further explorations (which you can agree with all, in part, or not at all.  Either way, you will learn a little more about a much misunderstood shift in thinking about what it means to follow Christ).  

This video clip of Michael Frost speaking to an American Presbyterian gathering about what “Missional” means is excellent.  No, amazing.  (The first five minutes or so may feel kind of slow, but stick with it, it’s worth it).  I am a huge fan of Michael Frost’s thinking and find his book, Exiles, to be a fantastic (please don’t equate that adjective with ”light reading”) work on the topic, except for that one part where he talks about how he spent time being in community with people who spend all day surfing on Australian beaches.  I don’t remember a lot of the details about that part.  Sort of one of those things you block out if you live way up North.    

170 Responses to this post.

  1. As usual, I am in love.

  2. Ok, so if Obama is the anti-Christ, would my voting for someone else slow his rise to power? Even better, would voting for him speed up the end-times? If so, i wish i had voted for him, to help Jesus come back sooner. ;-) .

  3. I can so relate. This was my life too Molly. That is until God stepped in, I drank (literally) the Bible and discovered what you have written in the last part of your post. Thank you.

  4. Posted by Leslie on November 12, 2008 at 4:55 pm

    Well said and beautifully written. Thanks for articulating these thoughts!

  5. I have been reading your blog for about a week now (I stumbled over here from Amy’s Humble Musings) and I must tell you that I enjoy your blog very much. You have a beautiful way of putting things. Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us.

  6. I have to wonderful just in what way Obama “looks evil”. Sounds like racism pure and simple to me.

  7. Posted by whimsy on November 12, 2008 at 5:36 pm

    Molly,
    I wonder if you have any idea just how profoundly your writing has impacted my life through the last couple of years.

    Thank you for introducing me to a part of God I never knew.

  8. Posted by Diane on November 12, 2008 at 5:39 pm

    I so remember in the 60’s when JFK was elected. He was eloquent and charismatic and Roman Catholic. The word “anti-Christ” was heard loud and clear with fear that we would all have to obey the Pope.
    What goes around comes around!!

    A friend of mine once said that if Jesus walked the earth today he would probably hang out in gay bars. He always could be found with the disenfranchised.

  9. Posted by naomiclark on November 12, 2008 at 5:45 pm

    I’m with Robert. This semester I’m taking a course in 18th century Afro-Brit-American literature. I’ve been astounded by just how these associations with blacks and violence/evil were started in the first place. Even though this nation was built by their unpaid labor, so many people are still intent on demonizing their descendants while whites get credit for the work. At first, Euro-Americans said slavery was justified because Africans weren’t their Christian brothers and sisters, but they were quick to change their logic and laws when slaves started converting to Christianity. Then the powers-that-were decided their dark skin and savagery damned them. Anything to make a buck.

    I’m not saying everyone who didn’t vote for Obama is racist, but many of the criticisms made against him sound eerily reminiscent of the slave owners’ justifications for their exploitation of African slaves.

  10. I’m not saying I agree that Obama is the AC—but I will say this trend towards “one world unity” and “one world government” under our newly appointed one world leader, Obama is VERY SCARY TO ME.

    Not just on a spiritual level, but on everything else too.

    It makes me nervous, and I am not a bible beater!

  11. I’m not sure if it’s necessarily racist (though may be for some), because I remember thinking Al Gore looked evil during the first Bush-Gore debate. I remember commenting then to my husband that Gore looked like a sinister robot, that I feared for our country if he won… I did not doubt my observations but completely believed them…

    Also, I’ve heard plenty of liberals voicing their distaste/disgust for the way Palin looked…it had nothing to do with race or gender, it just had to do with the utter investment in their side’s view of things. Ie, she would have looked AMAZING to them, had she been on *their* side.

    More later. I have to run my kids to Awana…

  12. Posted by bonnie on November 12, 2008 at 8:03 pm

    @ Diane’s comment, the people Jesus “hung out with” were (bad connotations here) “repentant”! They all wanted something better for their lives and found it in Jesus. What does this have to do with hanging out in gay bars? Jesus didn’t hang out in the midst of people doing bad stuff, they met him and he helped them pull it together.

  13. My dislike is focused soley on Obama’s policies, which I think would lead to a severe loss of freedom for the American people. I have heard people talk about Obama and use the term “anti-Christ” (usually in question form), but I don’t honestly care any which way. Quite frankly, why should any person, who believes that we (and *I*) have been bought by the blood of Christ, be afraid of the end of this world as we know it and the return of Jesus??? I think that panic over this particular issue is very strange. I think that if Jesus were to make his second grand appearance during my lifetime, my pitiful little heart might burst with the joy of it.

  14. Loving the conversation…. :)

    One quick thought before I head out: I wonder how much of this relates to the postmodern/modern divide in the way we percieve our world?

    Thought this was a great link and a good reminder:
    http://blindbeggar.org/?p=453 The conversation below the post is informative as well.

  15. Posted by Diane on November 13, 2008 at 5:28 am

    Bonnie
    Perhaps “hang out with” was a poor choice of words. “Minister to” or “care for” would have been better.

  16. Hmm… over the past couple of years, as I have moved away from the ‘culture war’ mentality and the conservative christian view, I find myself often saying to Papa, “Are you sure?” I have had a shocked expression on my face from time to time, but it is so much more rich and deep living where God can define what is acceptable and not, not religion. And to the religious, it can be shocking what God finds acceptable and even requests.

    Great post, Molly. :-)

  17. Molly,

    I think you hit the nail on the head in your last comment when you wondered aloud if any of this has to do with the modern/postmodern debate.

    I’ve been thinking about that for the entire election and I really think that has a lot to do with it. Obama truly is a more postmodern leader, and most times, the church is still having a hard time letting go of the enlightenment/modern understanding. Anyway, I wonder if this is why some of the problems have occurred. I really think that divide between modern sort of black/white thinking and postmodern okay with gray thinking is really the root of a lot of issues in the world today.

    And thanks for this post.

  18. alaina,

    i’ve been thinking the same thing. i think the election really showed the divide within the church in our ways of thinking about life/society.

  19. Diane,

    “Hang out” was a perfect choice of words. Luke 5:29-32.
    The Pharisees accused Jesus of “Hanging out” with sinners because he did. If I were a missional church planter in San Francisco and I had friendships with homosexuals and they invited me to go to their favorite hangout to hear a favorite band, I would go in a second.

    Scott

  20. Has any one of us that voted for Obama and are Christian *not* been given grief in one form or another?

    Sort of makes me sad.

    I can’t count the number of downright slandarous emails I got similar to the, “Obama is the Antichrist” sort of line.

  21. http://ambitiousoutsider.wordpress.com/2008/11/08/secrets-of-the-2008-campaign/

    Great coverage from imbedded reporters in each of the campaigns, now allowed to speak. Really interesting stuff.

  22. Molly,

    I read those last week. Really fascinating stuff.

    Scott

  23. Molly,

    I also listened to that Michael Frost video you linked to. Really great stuff.

    LINK

    Scott

  24. I’m glad, Scott. It’s long so it seems like it’s not worth it (I almost always hesitate to do anything that takes over 3 minutes on youtube-lol), but wasn’t it absolutely WONDERFUL!???

  25. Posted by Liesl on November 13, 2008 at 2:19 pm

    Interesting comments.

    Of course Jesus “hung out” with sinners. We are all sinners. I think the point is that Jesus condemns sin. There are some Christians who don’t condemn sin. We’re not calling sin sin anymore, and if we do then we’re considered hateful and unloving, even from Christians. That is sad. The only thing that saves me is not my own trying of being obedient and pure, but admitting my sins, repenting, and relying on the grace of God.

  26. Posted by Liesl on November 13, 2008 at 2:34 pm

    Oops, I clicked submit too soon. I also wanted to add – I don’t care if Obama is or isn’t the anti-christ (I don’t think he is). Some of my close Christian friends voted for Obama and even though I cannot for the life of me follow their reasons, I don’t hound them for their beliefs or think they sinned. Good Lord if people actually think that it was a sin to vote for Obama.

    I truly respect him for his accomplishments and as my soon to be President and as most Christians I know will give him his due honor. But that doesn’t mean I am not troubled by what he may bring to America. But bottom line is he is not willing to protect Christian values. In addition to disrespecting the Bible, promoting abortion, and in favor of making it a crime to say homosexuality is a sin, check out the link below about removing alot of parental rights of their children. Obama supports the UN Rights of the Child.

    http://www.parentalrights.org/blog/uncrc/“imagine-if-”#more-99

    I agree the whole “One World” thing is troubling. I don’t which blogs you read Molly, but I’ve come across more media and blogs ridiculing Christians for being narrow minded and voting for McCain or being too worldly and voting for McCain than what you describe.

  27. Molly, I wish I could just tuck you under my arm and take you to visit each member of my family. The same ones who have cut me off because of who I voted for. If more Christians would like you, maybe waitresses wouldn’t shudder at Sunday lunchtime.

  28. Make that “were like you”. Oh brother.

  29. I don’t think this is Obama-centric so much as it is a prevalent, deeply held mindset of some fundamentalist Christians. These folks have been jumping on the “He’s an Anti-Christ!” bandwagon since Hal Lindsey wrote “The Late, Great Planet Earth.” This is nothing new. We survived 1988. We survived Y2K. It’s not really about Obama. In fact, no matter what the headlines say, they’ll start decoding it according to the book of Daniel or Revelation. It’s impossible to have a reasonable discussion because well…you can’t reason with someone who can’t even for a moment consider that they might be wrong.

    They’d be calling John Kerry the AC if he could speak as eloquently as Obama.

    To be fair, though, Molly, there were plenty of horrific and unfair allegations thrown against McCain/Palin. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a woman treated with such disrespect by the MSM. Truly appalling.

    I guess it’s a sign of the times. Heh, heh.

  30. [...] came across this post just now and couldn’t help but link to it. Here’s an appetizer: I literally thought that [...]

  31. I just had to go and link to this. I was just starting to try to be a bit more consistent in some of my themes in posting but this was fantastic!!! I had to shoehorn it into what I have started writing about. :)

    Alongside on the journey….

  32. lol… You can link to me anytime, Bry, as long as you STOP SENDING ME PRIVATE NOTICES ABOUT ALL THE WORDS I SPELLED INCORRECTLY!!!!!
    *forms snowball and chucks it*
    :) :) :)
    (If I ever write a book, like, twenty years from now, I’m going to look you up. A better editor ne’er did walk the earth)…

  33. Posted by acme on November 13, 2008 at 7:18 pm

    I am very concerned about the increased Balkanization of information as more and more folks use labels like MSM and retreat into media that only agrees with them, that “tickles their ears” and feeds their fears.

    I had to tell one friend to repeatedly STOP forwarding me emails explaining all the ways that Obama will destroy the nation, because she was NOT listening to me, only banging me over the head with her convictions that I was an idiot heading straight for hell with the rest of the country. Every single email had links that were from FM (fringe media–I think I just made up the term).

    I understand that the news organizations are businesses–their goal is make a profit and that they do not (and cannot probably) report everything. My brother was protesting at both the RNC and DNC–and there was very little substantive mention in the MSM about these protests. Outside the presidential debates in NYC, our own veterans of the Iraq war were beaten–one man’s face was smashed in–but the only coverage was in the FM on the left.

    I am grateful for access to a variety of news sources–and unlike Governor Palin, I can tell you what newspapers and magazines that I regularly read: The Washington Post, Time, The New York Times, the BBC, Google News, and Sojourners.com–and I keep on the lookout through Facebook and blogs like this one and many others. I use factcheck.org and Snopes.com as needed. I realize these tend left (as do I after leaving SGM), but I also know that all of these do include a variety of viewpoints–and ANYONE can submit comments.

    Thanks, molleth, for your blog, for your convictions and insight, for your humor and compassion.

  34. LOL. Just remember, your fourth grade teetcher may read it sometimes and they’ll grimace at the errers.

  35. I agree with what Elizabeth Ester said. People (fundamenalism/end times) have been saying the same thing for quite a while. Even the whole fear of a one world government has been around at least since I was in elementary school (although at that time it was a bit of a “we’re getting too close to communism” fear too). I can still remember people decoding ways to say that Clinton and/or Bill Gates names added up to 666 so one of them was the antichrist.

  36. Posted by Scott M on November 13, 2008 at 9:03 pm

    I was listening to the podcasts of the 15th AAC of the Orthodox Church of America downloaded from ancientfaith.com. Several of the vespers services are included. And as I was listening to a later one, I was suddenly struck by one of the prayers in the liturgy.

    We pray for the President of this country….

    Not our President. Not of our country. President of this country, the one in which we reside.

    It’s a bundle of profundity in the shortest of prayers. We pray for the President (or at least as Christians we should). We do the best we can to live as good citizens. But ultimately we don’t have a President. We have a King. And our King is over all other rulers. The Church has one Lord.

    It becomes clearer why Christianity has often been viewed unfavorably the last two thousand years by rulers of every stripe.

  37. Posted by Scott M on November 13, 2008 at 9:06 pm

    Oh. And I posted some reflections on the postmodern influence in this election and the fairly despicable fearmongering at a friend’s blog so I won’t repeat them here.

  38. Scotteth…are you dabbling with the Orthodox Church? Tell me more, tell me more! :) I have found myself in the middle of a divide these past two years… I know that I can’t “do” the evangelical church anymore. For reasons right or wrong (or neither), I don’t even know. I literally can’t do it. I sometimes think it’s an issue of post-traumatic stress sydrome. As in, even thinking of going to your typical evangelical Sunday service makes me feel sick, or like iron bars are closing in around me.

    So, after a while, I decided I just need to be with Believers…but in a setting where my stomach isn’t sick and my heartbeat isn’t racing and where I’m literally dreading/hating/suffering through the time.

    So on the one hand, I lean towards the unchurch movement (ala the godjourney and similar stuff, casual house groups, missional/emerging stuff [if you're reading this and you think emerging church equals satan, please do more research on the wiiiiide range of beliefs and practices in the large group of emerging christians. There are some flakes, but aren't there in every people group? grump, grump...], Michael Frost, etc)…

    we were doing a lectio divina meeting Sundays with my friend and a few other folks, and that was nice…I blogged about that a few times…though then after the “big trauma” happened, I just literally didn’t have it in me anymore to help “midwife” that. My ability to “do” is pretty limited right now. I jsut don’t have it in me. (Who would have thought this former powerhouse do-do-doer would have ever said such a thing? HA).

    Then on the other hand, I lean towards the more ancient church, concepts involving liturgy and tradition. I’m not drawn to Roman Catholicism as much as I am other groups, probably because of the RC hierarchy emphasis more than anything else (which could be simply a reaction agianst the authoritarianism of what I came out of), though I love much of the RC… I really enjoyed my time researching the Orthodox church, though… Ancient Faith Radio was, like, my staple diet for some months! :)

    I’m really not looking for perfection. I’ve come far enough to realize that will NEVER be here. I liked how Michael Frost mentioned that on the clip—that the wheat and the tares are everywhere, in the world AND in the church… I don’t want “The Right Version of CHurch.” I’m too post-modern to believe that even exists. Or just too humbled. lol…either one.

    I’m just looking for an imperfect place where I can gather with imperfect family members, that’s all. A place to come and feed and water together and encourage eachother on our journeys, work together to serve the poor and the unwanted…a place to experience the wider family of God.

    I went to an Episcopalian gathering last Sunday for the first time (I was going to try that one or the Methodist church, and the Episcopal one started earlier so it won-lol) with my girls and we all just loved it. It’s a great blend between Catholic/Orthodox and Protestantism…I am totally going back next week.

    My mom was aghast, becuase some Episcopalian groups are so *liberal*, but I explained…or, rather, tried to explain, that right now, I know and I LIKE it. I mean, I know any and every group is going to err, right? So, keeping my post-traumatic-stress-sydrome in mind (a joke, but not really), if I’m going to be with a group at all, then I need to be with a group that errs more on the side of liberal than on conservative. I just have a serious knee-jerk reaction against the whole legalism thing… the more narrow they get, the more I can’t breath.

    That, AND I want to be somewhere where women are full adults, full participants…a place where I can be MOLLY and not have to deal with disapproval for the sin of being strong and smart and female all at the same time, or go hide myself in the nursery because that’s the only place my service is wanted. I just can’t do that anymore.

    My ramble. I didn’t end up going the Orthodox route… at least not so far. There were a few “big deals” to me that would take a lot of getting over in order for me to buy in…but other than those, I was thoroughly impressed and rightly humbled at how much richness our church history has (and how that is kept from many of us in evangelicaldom).

    I can’t believe I just wrote this much… No, wait. I can.

  39. Posted by jill on November 13, 2008 at 10:09 pm

    i seriously love the evolution of the comments on this blog! rock on, molly!

  40. Posted by jill on November 13, 2008 at 10:12 pm

    this entry that is… but oh well, why not the whole blog. that, too. ack, it’s late on the east coast.

  41. Posted by Holly on November 14, 2008 at 5:11 am

    Here I go as lone dissenter again. I mean no ill will. :)

    I don’t think this is a culture war. I really don’t.

    I personally don’t think any rank and file Democrat would bring out the same reaction in people – but if you couple the cataclysmic, world-wide financial nosedive with global calls for centralization of financial systems, and Obama’s proclamations of spreading the wealth around…well…it scares people. Obama calls himself a Christian, but if you read his writings (which I have,) it sounds more like a cerebral thing rather than a heart thing.

    Yes, people have been saying that the end was coming for, oh, about 2000 years now, but Jesus himself tells us to expect him at any time. What’s a Christian to think? And even though we shouldn’t fear the end of the age, ideally, anyone reading Revelation 20:4 and the passage about the “beheading of the saints” can get a little nervous.

    I understand that there is a wide variety of ways to interpret the apocryphal books. I do believe that there is an “end” and that Jesus will return to this earth – and if that is so then there is definitely a time period for that. I try not to focus on a timeframe so much and just live my life ready every day should it be my time to enter eternity. Some days I do better than others. :)

    Eventually, the end will come – I guess we’ll find out who the key players are in due time, eh?

    By and large, the consensus from the leaders of our mainstream evangelical groups seem to be full of kindness to Barack Obama. There is concern, but they are extending a hand of congratulations and urging prayers for the well-being of our new President-elect. I haven’t seen anyone saying that he is the Anti-Christ. (Though I would say, personally, that he has a spirit that is Against Christ when he promises that his VERY FIRST official act will be to sign the Freedom of Choice Act. To remove ALL restrictions on abortion will likely result in more abortions. To rescind the Mexico City Policy will fund abortions in third world countries receiving our foreign aid…all with taxpayer’s money.)

    Personally, I am not against his culture. I’m against many of his policies. I do not harbor ill will against him, at all – I rather pray for him and his family.

    I do think that Satan incites our “culture” to war against the Christian, and I suspect that we will also learn more about that in days and weeks and years to come. (The fierce homosexual agenda being waged is one good example. They don’t want warm fuzzies, they want legislative victories and the ability to teach school children.)

    The Christian must always remember that he or she belongs to an eternal kingdom, and not be so invested in political kingdoms – but there are still responsibilities given to Christians who are born into a culture which is a representative republic.

    Anyway, thanks for your thoughts, Molly. And thanks for allowing me to give mine.

  42. Posted by Holly on November 14, 2008 at 5:35 am

    Oops. P.S.

    Wanted to add that the Newsweek articles (linked to by ambitious outsider) are filled with things reported as “facts” that have already been proven untrue and basically retracted by the media. The anonymous allegations against Sarah Palin were simply made up, yet reported as fact. Sad. Did you all read where independent agencies examined various main stream medias prior to the election and found them 75 percent biased against the McCain/Palin ticket? Golly. The press is supposed to be unbiased.

  43. Posted by Scott M on November 14, 2008 at 5:49 am

    Dabbling with the Orthodox Church? Hmmm. Not exactly, though I’m not sure how I would describe whatever my journey is right now. My own cultural and spiritual shaping as a child a journey as an adult is too complicated even to summarize. Suffice it to say that I didn’t grow up enculturated in any evangelical (or Roman Catholic or Anglican or ‘mainline’) or even Christian stream, though I was exposed to many forms of Western Christianity as well as a variety of other spiritual paths. By the time I reached something like adulthood, I had had some pretty bad experiences with and negative opinions of ‘Christianity’. I ended up in the evangelical stream with my family a dozen years later largely because in the struggle of my journey I picked a church I thought most likely to confirm my worst expectations of Christianity. And there I’ve been for 15 years. In a way it’s like the lesson Jacob learned when you wrestle with our God. He’s powerful and he has a sense of humor. ;)

    But it’s always been an uneasy fit. I don’t know that I’ve ever been looking for the “right church”, whatever that may mean. But I came to Christianity with a strongly established love for history, especially ancient history. And, while I ‘try on’ beliefs fairly easily to see if they fit, I live within a whirlwind, one strand of which is constantly deconstructing whatever I tried on. And much that is in evangelicalism deconstructs too easily.

    So I never really limited myself to anything evangelical. On one level, I suppose I couldn’t and stay ‘Christian’. But honestly I don’t really think in those terms. It was Jesus and this strange perception of God he taught and embodied that drew me in. So I kept working to understand him better. I’ve always loved the storytelling of Max Lucado. He’s probably the only ‘evangelical’ I’ve read over an extended period of time. But it was his stories of God I loved.

    Beyond that, it felt natural to me to draw from the streams of Christianity. I read Justin Martyr. I read Chrysostom. I read Irenaeus. I read Brother Lawrence. (I have the audio of the Practice of the Presence of God on my mp3 player.) I recently realized that most of the modern writers/speakers for whom I’ve had affinity have been Anglican. Bishop Tom. Phyllis Tickle. C.S. Lewis. Os Guinness. Lesslie Newbigin. Lauren Wiener. Sara Miles.

    But through all of that, I never really encountered the Orthodox Church. Oh, I knew they were there. And of course I knew a lot about historical events that involved them. But to the extent I thought about them today, I suppose I mostly thought of them as Eastern Catholics and generally placed them under the same umbrella as the Roman Catholic Church.

    Over the course of time, I naturally ran into the post-evangelical and emerging stream. I’ve enjoyed and still enjoy much of what they have to say. However, I’ve never really been shaped as an evangelical, even if it is the only place I’ve really been identifiably ‘Christian’. So I’m not neither ‘post’ nor ‘emerging’ from anything. And I often get the sense that many are struggling to find a way to speak ‘to’ those more shaped by postmodern forces rather than ‘as’ if that makes any sense.

    I first began to realize that I had made a significant error in my mental placement of the Orthodox Church several years ago when I was reading Scot McKnight’s book ‘Praying with the Church’ at our church’s youth summer camp. (I’ve been a sponsor for some time.) I was stunned and immediately shared with several of my adult friends when I reached his section on the Jesus Prayer. Here was the oldest prayer tradition of the Church — and a variation of this prayer was the ‘breath prayer’ I had developed on my own and which had become my constant companion.

    And so I gradually began more seriously exploring the Orthodox Church. I’ve followed Ancient Faith Radio pretty much from the beginning of their podcast offerings and continue to listen to the majority of their podcasts today. (Along with Rob Bell’s Mars Hill Church podcast and the Internet Monk Radio and anything I can find that N.T. Wright does, those are probably all the podcasts I routinely follow on my mp3 player.) The Orthodox perspective of God, of creation, and of man is, I’ve discovered, pretty different from anything the West has to offer. However, again and again I encounter things I have believed even before I was anything anyone would call Christian. And everything that ever attracted me to Jesus. Even the things that are ‘new’ to me feel like they fit like a glove.

    With that said, I have no ‘plans’ to become Orthodox nor do I see that path intersecting anything I can perceive of my own path in the future. But I wouldn’t mind it if things developed that way. Anglican maybe, though. Yes, the Episcopal Church (the American expression of Anglicanism) has some issues right now. But honestly, who doesn’t? And Anglicans have long lived in the tension between Catholic and Protestant without ever being one or the other. And because the Isles were originally evangelized and thrived as Orthodox, Anglicanism has roots that touch those deep waters as well. It’s an interesting tradition unto itself, sharing in yet separate from the other streams of Christianity.

    Both Orthodoxy and Anglicanism strike me as streams you have to float within and absorb over an extended period of time. They aren’t easy or quick. But then, a God like the one revealed in Jesus of Nazareth is neither easy to understand nor quick to know. We grow in knowledge of him only as we grow in communion with him. Everything else is shadow of turning.

    I know I’m wordy, so I’m unsurprised as well that I wrote so much. Really not what I had intended to say, but it will do.

    Grace and peace.

  44. Scott M wrote:

    I first began to realize that I had made a significant error in my mental placement of the Orthodox Church several years ago when I was reading Scot McKnight’s book ‘Praying with the Church’ at our church’s youth summer camp. (I’ve been a sponsor for some time.) I was stunned and immediately shared with several of my adult friends when I reached his section on the Jesus Prayer. Here was the oldest prayer tradition of the Church — and a variation of this prayer was the ‘breath prayer’ I had developed on my own and which had become my constant companion.

    Is “the Jesus Prayer” really “the oldest prayer tradition of the church”? While hesychasm as a practice goes back a long way, IIRC I don’t even think St. Simeon the New Theologian practiced “the Jesus Prayer” or that it was a traditional prayer yet. I could be wrong, though.

    For an interesting take on “The Jesus Prayer” (besides, of course, the “classic” work(s) on the subject, The Way of The Pilgrim and The Pilgrim Continues his Way), read Franny and Zooey by J.D. Salinger, in which the Pilgrim book and story and The Jesus Prayer figure prominently. Interestingly, Salinger’s characters use the prayer to explain its universality to all religious traditions.

  45. Posted by Holly on November 14, 2008 at 6:30 am

    Oh, man, I’m sorry that I post this way. I comment, and then go about my morning tasks, then think of something else I want to say.

    I really do want to express myself as hopeful right now, but certainly not because of Obama. ;)

    I think that no matter what, this is a time of great opportunity for the Church to serve as Jesus’ hands and feet. It’s a wonderful time to love others and ask God what He has for us to do. Those who love God won’t attract anyone or anything by having a bunker mentality. When crisis comes – whether financial or emotional or whatever, we need to be “out there,” and available. I think the tendency is toward self-protectionism, but that’s not really what the Gospel is all about, either.

    What if God wants to move remarkably through those who love him during this time, but we (as an evangelical group) are so afraid that we are hiding our lights instead of letting them shine?

    Just musing…

  46. Posted by Scott M on November 14, 2008 at 6:33 am

    Sorry. What I had in mind as I wrote is that it is the oldest prayer tradition of the Church that has been continuously practiced and is still practiced in essentially the same manner and form. It melds two earlier forms that were paths along the way toward the goal of ‘praying without ceasing’ so its roots go back even further. I see I didn’t express that idea very well, though it was clear in my own mind. The major surprise to me came from the fact that I had ‘independently’ (yeah, I know nothing we do is really independent, but I had no conscious knowledge of the Jesus Prayer) developed this as part of my own spiritual life. Again and again, that’s been my experience exploring Orthodoxy. They say things that either are or develop from things that I thought and believed that I thought were alien and strange. And which are when compared to much of what Western Christianity says.

  47. Posted by brooke on November 14, 2008 at 6:42 am

    I saw a little bit of what you were talking about. We had been so busy in what we needed to do these last two years, that I didn’t “follow” the presidential election. Neither did I follow much of Bush’s demise. I find many benefits in that. Not head-in-the-sand benefits. But the benefit of looking from the outside in. For one, I believe people’s adamant support of Bush comes not from them thinking everything he did was so wonderful … it comes from them not believing everything that people said he did. Did that make sense? We live in a society of suspicion, where people don’t know where they can actually find the truth. Their minds are flooded with words and thoughts and contradictions. And they don’t want to believe something horrible about someone they’ve trusted and it’s easy to feel someone was just out to get him. I can’t answer all that … I ignored it all because I was too busy getting better from a neck injury, raising my fourth baby and all that. It’s just my take on the perception of stubborn Bush supporters.

    A little side note on foolishness … I remember my beloved grandpa deciding to vote for Kerry because he was handsome. Such things fall to all sides.

    As for the anti-christ and the savior … well, yeah, I saw a few of those positions. It all made me really glad I was out of that loop. But what I don’t understand is how people get so confused and tossed around and glued to people and parties. I just really don’t. I was raised in a conservative, Christian home in an imperfect church, around imperfect people … and yet, I’m still perfectly able to step back without volatility. I may not agree with someone in either direction. But somewhere along the way, I learned not to expect unbelievers to act like believers, to separate people from parties, to not assign religion to parties but to understand that faith infuses all of life and to understand that everyone has their own background and journey and can’t be me and I’m not them ….

    I may be registered under one particular party just to be able to vote in primaries. But I don’t assign myself to that party or it’s issues. I may have been raised in a particular party’s “territory” … but I’m not backlashing against it, nor am I stubbornly blind to its faults.

    I’m just a person. At the same time as I am a person, I also realize that I am filled with the Spirit of Christ and his wisdom. And I expect all other believers to have God’s Spirit living in them as well. Group think? No. There will be differing levels of maturity … and I’m not at the top. But I think what a lot of people see and saw is what you termed arrogance, but I term wisdom. (wait … I should be careful … I didn’t see what you saw, I didn’t experience the spirit behind what you saw, which could easily have been filled with hatred … but let me keep going). If someone looked at you and, without calling Obama The.AntiChrist … said, “I believe there is a total lack of discernment on the part of people who call themselves Christians believing Obama when he said he wants to reduce abortions” … would you be able to understand that I didn’t say McCain is an amazingly, godly leader, or that the environment matters not, or that these people who call themselves Christians aren’t Christians … but that I won’t call them Christian because I don’t know them … that’s why I said it that way, and that I didn’t say that Obama is awful on everything. What I said was … for some reason, a lot of people wanted to vote for Obama. They wanted to vote for him so badly that they ignored his true stance on abortion. They addressed the issue. They believed a mini-statement and ignored his stated plan. They wanted to. They wanted to so badly, that they shut their minds and eyes to discernment and truth. It’s not about Democrat/Republican … or who anyone actually voted for. People were/are upset that these people who called themselves Christians had so little discernment as to actually believe Obama’s policy on abortion … no wait … they ignored his policy … they believed his mini-statement … in regards to “reducing abortions.” It was that one issue that had so many people shocked. It wasn’t party … and the behavior was so poor on the part of so many and that is so sad. But I believe the core issue was shock that anyone could actually look at that one issue and come to the conclusion that Obama would reduce abortions. Regardless of any other issue/thought/candidate. It was discernment. I believe (my opinion) that people felt some allure in voting for him, decided to and then were questioned about abortion and came up with their house of cards.

    I believe it was God raising up who is in authority. I trust God’s wisdom on all of that. I am not angry. I don’t even care about parties. At all. In fact, all the junk about one world gov’t and all that … if people are afraid of it and try to thwart it … then I suppose they try to push against God who prophesied along those lines. Silly. I wouldn’t fight such things. In reality, I spend a lot more time living my life for Jesus by loving/obeying him hopefully more and more all the time as I love my husband, raise my children, invite my neighbors over, care for friends, make new friends … be a missionary wherever I am … which for three months happens to be Austria working with refugees … and then back home soon to whatever God has for me there.

    Just some thoughts on someone who isn’t political … but believe faith infuses all of it. It isn’t expressed accurately by all believers, but since when have believers been perfect? Sadly, never. And yet, in God’s mercy, they will be someday. If they were perfect … God wouldn’t have to look at Jesus instead.

  48. Posted by ambitiousoutsider on November 14, 2008 at 7:07 am

    Wanted to add that the Newsweek articles (linked to by ambitious outsider) are filled with things reported as “facts” that have already been proven untrue and basically retracted by the media. The anonymous allegations against Sarah Palin were simply made up, yet reported as fact.

    Holly – do you have a cite for that? I’m pretty sure nothing’s been retracted…

  49. [I only have a second this morning before I have to run, but wanted to pop in and say that this comment section provides a great example of one of the primary reasons that I blog. I love all these thoughts and musings... You all rock!] :)

  50. FWIW, Scott M, I am a revert from Orthodoxy. After 25 or so years as a non-denom charismatic/evangelical Xian (including a l-o-n-g stint at the church Molly and we had in common), a 2.5-year search and study and regular/consistent attendance at services led to my conversion. A year later, though, I left the church.

  51. I know this is going to come off the wrong way but….Molly where is your husband in all of this? Maybe I’m the only one here who wonders this, but it seems like a glaring omission.

    I ask this from the most non-judgmental of places, truly (and you know my story, Molly). I have left evangelicalism, too, but I’m just saying….my husband is my partner and best friend. He walks WITH me on my spiritual journey, we have an ongoing conversation, and I’m not just dashing off into 5 different directions without him. Know what I mean? So maybe your hubby is totally on board, part of the dialogue, etc. and you just protect his privacy by not writing about it on your blog—I totally get that and that’s cool.

    His absence, no mention of him whatsoever just seems….I don’t know…odd.

    I’m just curious how you manage/juggle your own spiritual journey while making sure you and your husband are on the same page?

    Sheesh, there’s just no way to write this question without it sounding totally judgmental/patriarchal/exactly-what-you-despise.

    But, still. As one who is on a similar journey, I’m really interested to know…..

  52. Posted by Holly on November 14, 2008 at 8:56 am

    “basically retracted,” not “officially retracted.

    The garbage gossip about her supposed spending spree – I think it is in section seven or eight – the comments about hillbillies from Wasilla looting Neiman Marcus and Saks from coast to coast, the charges that she forced low level staffers to put thousands of dollars on their credit cards to buy Todd spiffy duds…

    Well, those were anonymous sources and pretty much no-one really believes that any more – not even in the main media. Sure, you get some who still tout that, but the big boys and girls know that is a lie. Palin denies that, she says that she has never set foot in either of those stores.

    Once the “news” is out there, though, it takes on a life of its own and it is repeated and repeated as if it were fact. Embedded journalists still have the capacity to lie. And in this case, it seems that they did at least on this issue, and no one really wanted to check it out to see if it was true before they endlessly repeated it. If any of this is true, I would think that someone would be able to show personal receipts. It says a lot that no one wants to put their name on the line.

    If I were from Wasilla I’d be sort of offended about the hillbilly comment.

  53. elizabeth esther,

    not trying to answer for molly here, but to add my own 2 cents regarding your question (cause that’s the fun of blogging, right *grin*):

    it doesn’t seem odd to me that molly only blogs her own perspective. i do the same thing – i don’t feel right telling the world what my husband is thinking. my blog is just my own thoughts and opinions. of course, there’s a lot of talking and thinking and praying together behind the scenes but i don’t think my husband wants me bringing him into this whole crazy internet-world. :)

    maybe that is an outflow of my egalitarian viewpoint, i don’t know. (isn’t it funny how the way we blog reveals a lot of our underlying beliefs? )

    okay, back to my own corner. ;)

  54. Speaking of internet-challenged spouses: I don’t think my wife knows what a “blog” or “facebook page” is. And she is totally clueless about my blogs and stuff. Doesn’t read ‘em, doesn’t know what I say.

    But … she knows every house that has been remodeled on HGTV. :)

  55. Posted by ambitiousoutsider on November 14, 2008 at 9:22 am

    I’m not sure where you’re getting that from, Holly, but the campaign *confirmed* the 150K at neiman marcus and saks:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/23/us/politics/23palin.html?scp=1&sq=neiman%20marcus&st=cse

    If you go to the main newsweek page for the story:

    http://www.newsweek.com/id/167581

    and scroll halfway down to the video box on the left (with the woman on the screen) they go into more detail about the developing story (and the Editor of Newsweek agrees with you – as do I – that for a McCain campaign person to call the Palins “hillbillies” is really offensive).

    maura

  56. Tonia: thanks for the reply. Yeah, I get that. I really do. I don’t speak for my husband on my blog, either. He’s a very private person and I respect that.

    But choosing a church isn’t like sharing pumpkin spice muffin recipes or posting status updates on facebook. Know what I mean? This is a huge decision affecting the entire family.

    This isn’t a criticism of Molly. She knows me better than that. But it is an honest question: are our “personal spiritual journeys” really isolated to ourselves? Is it really just about me and my own journey to God? Is my blog not connected to my real life, my flesh-and-blood husband & partner in life?

    E’s comment gives me pause. Is it really OK for a spouse not to have any clue about what one writes on a blog or on facebook? Honestly, that bothers me. It’s a sort of cognitive dissonance that doesn’t sit well with me.

    I’m asking this as one who doesn’t have the answers. I’m on this journey, too.

  57. My husband thinks that people who blog have something wrong with them. :) (Okay, so actually I’m only half-joking). (Okay, maybe only one-fourth of the way joking).

    He likes his privacy. I respect that. I will be very blunt. Some marriages enjoy a best-friendshipness and agreement on all major issues, and some don’t, no matter how hard a person tries. And believe me, I have tried. This is not the time to send me The Best Book Ever on how to have a happy marriage. I already read them all.

    This might be a good time to say that the world is a broken place. You can eat 100% healthy food during a pregnancy and give birth to a child who is deformed or retarded. There is no guarantee about anything in this life. So there is no such thing as managing my own spiritual journey while “making sure my husband and I are on the same page.” What if his page is in a completely different book? What if his views on a LOT of things are in a completely different book?

    Am I supposed to switch books? I did that for eight years. It was a very very very bad idea. How about just loving him and respecting his right to have another book WHILE respecting my right to have mine? That is the conclusion he and I have reached together, and it is so much healthier than the one I used to have.

  58. Elizabeth:

    My wife is free to read anything and everything I write. But she really doesn’t like to work on computers; she reads her email via her cell phone, and mainly uses PCs to check for work-related (i.e., medical, health care) stuff.

    I even had a bookmark to my blog(s) on her old laptop when she had it, but surfing the ‘net and reading articles online is not her cup of tea.

    However, she knows the kinds of things I talk and think about. And my facebook page is pretty empty. I only joined FB so I could see a friend’s pictures he posted there of his photographing of ancient NT manuscripts in Greece and elsewhere. I delete the (few) wall comments I get after a day or two, ’cause I don’t want the world to have a running history of what people say to me; facebook seems to be a “confessional” for a lot of people that the whole world (or all 50 or 200 or 10,000 of your “friends” can see – Yikes!), and I think that’s an unwise thing to do. And what I write on FB is pretty non-consequential. E.g., my “profile” statement of “what I am doing now” is usually just a phrase from a Bob Dylan song.

    I think I’m bringing it all back home, but I may soon be caught in a simple twist of fate, if I first don’t get all tangled up in blue. But if that happens, don’t think twice, it’s all right. Yes, the times they are a-changin’, aren’t they?

  59. Posted by Liesl on November 14, 2008 at 10:35 am

    Holly – I don’t think you’re a lone dissenter. I’m right there with you sister.

    Yeah there are some extremists out there that are preparing for end times for tonight so to speak. But that doesn’t mean that us Christians like Holly and I are naive or crazy not to be troubled by the direction Obama most likely will take our country. It’s against the Bible.

    I think that’s the biggest isssue – there’s little respect for the Bible these days. Yeah, sure I don’t expect an unbeliever to even begin to comprehend spiritual things and the relevance of God’s word – that comes only by faith. But I’ve heard so many Christians either denounce what the Bible says (it’s not a salad bar where you get to pick and choose grace and love and forego obedience and respect – although there is always love and grace always covers repentant sin for those in Christ). I’ve also heard Christians who agree that certain things are sinful, yet still voted for a man who wants to promote such things. That’s bewildering.

    Molly, you are an exception though, you are coming out of a cult where people twisted the scripture and abused it and didn’t present it truthfullly. There is freedom in Christ and I’m so excited for your journey discovering that.

  60. Holly and Leisl, I am thankful for your dissent and hereby award you with the Most Esteemed Dissenters pin. If someone with image-talent can make it for you, that is. *grin*

    Elizabeth Esther,

    Btw, my husband is free to read any of my online stuff too. I think he reads my blog eeeevery so often. Very rare, though, I’d guess. Reading it is not always good for him (based on a few reactions of his, I would posit that he often doesn’t care for my opinions or just doesn’t like the way I express them). I don’t know, though, how often he reads because I don’t ask him. It used to really hurt my feelings, way back when I first started blogging… Now I understand better: we are allowed to be different. It is okay.

    And would be okay, even if I didn’t want him to read what I wrote and so kept my blog a secret (well, um, as long as I’m not having an affair or using my blog to openly bash him, lol), because EVEN married people are allowed to be individual selves, too. In order for two to become one, there has to be two. Boundaries and all (oh, I love that book). :)

    Those who have the joy of being married to their best friend, I am delighted for you. Some of us are married to a person who is not our best friend. Still further, some of us are perhaps married to our best enemy.

    Some have to learn to love in a furnace. It is a good and holy thing, either way, wherever love is born.

  61. Molleth: Got it. And while I disagree that there are “no guarantees about anything in this life”—do you really, truly believe that?—I do agree that every marriage is different and the agreements, solutions and ways we manage are entirely individual to each couple. Thanks for answering w/o taking it personally. You rock. :-)

    E: that’s great. I’m glad you two have such an open, trusting relationship. I apologize that you felt the need to defend yourself—my bad.

  62. I think it is Biblical. We live in a broken world, right? Beauty and pain are guarantees, but some experience more than others.

    Living in rich free America makes it easy for me to forget the Christian mother of a newborn who’s breasts were chopped off and had to watch her baby die in her arms of starvation…but just because I can forget about it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. Should we tell her she is wrong for knowing that there are no guarantees in this life, should we tell her that she just needs to trust God more and then she won’t grieve her loss? Should we tell her not to accept the loss, to fight against it?

    Having a happy healthy relationship with a spouse is the ideal. Some of us won’t have that. “Work harder, do more,” doesn’t always fix everything. It is good when people have good things. It is not good when they tell others that they just need to work harder and then they can have good things too. Some people are going to have bad things happen to them, period. We can learn to walk in the Spirit, no matter what, though. We can learn to live by the Law of Love. And we can look forward to the day when we wake up as-from-a-dream and are face to face with Him. :)

  63. Speaking of marriage and all things spousal:

    From C. Michael Patton at Parchment and Pen today:

    http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/11/can-you-marry-the-wrong-person/

  64. Face-to-Face with Him, yes. God’s promises ARE the guarantees and that was what I was referring to.

    Anything and everything I have is the result of grace, it is not my own. I do not lay claim to it or chalk it up to my own strength.

    However, learning to trust God more requires a concerted, intentional “doing”, at least, for me. It is a alignment of my will, thoughts, and heart to the sure promises of God. This is not “working harder” so much as “working smarter.” I can do this regardless of life circumstances whether “good” or “bad,” whether beautiful or painful.

  65. Posted by Diane on November 14, 2008 at 11:24 am

    Molly
    Have you read “Evangelicals on the Canterbury Trail? I read it shortly after leaving extreme evangelicalism and joining the Episcopal church. It is a wonderful read!
    I know that the Episcopal church in the USA is undergoing changes, but God has his steady hand on it and will continue to guide it. Just let the liturgy wash over you like a warm blanket – it is such a healing thing.

    Diane

  66. Oooh, no, but now I’ll be on the look-out for it. :)

    I just finished an exam and now I have to write a paper. But what I really REALLY want to do is hang out here and respond to all these comments. *laughing sigh*

    Must….
    Exit…
    This…
    Page…

  67. talk about bewildering!: I’ve also heard Christians who agree that certain things are sinful, yet still voted for a man who wants to promote such things. That’s bewildering.

    i must have missed it when we discovered that mccain/palin were sinless and only promoted righteousness. shoot! now it’s too late to change my vote.

    ;)

  68. what a refreshing wonderful blog you have. It is a breath of reason, of true Christianity. Of mercy and grace. Thank you

  69. Posted by Julia on November 14, 2008 at 2:46 pm

    Molly, I can empathize with your journey out of legalism. When I got out, I swung the pendulum the other way and wouldn’t look or speak to anyone I thought would have so much as a firm opinion. I perceived all as judgmental and trusted no one.

    I’m not saying you have done the same, but I think it is dangerous to mock those weaker brothers and sisters who feel fear at what an Obama presidency may entail.

    As I’ve commented before, his only discernable actions as an American leader have been to remove all restraint for abortion. His belief about life is disturbing to say the least and frankly (and you have mocked this word before) evil at its worst.

    I don’t live in fear of this man. I understand he has been voted for as our President by the majority. I abhor his policies and I will do my part to bind up the broken women who have aborted their babies, and convince others of the horror of abortion.
    But, I cannot look at a brother or sister in Christ who is afraid of this President and has little restraint to voice their fears in other ways…and tell them they are crazy.
    They may not be.

  70. Julia,

    Ouch! :) I do not think I am mocking anyone. At least, that is not what I want to do at all. My deepest apologies to those who feel they have been mocked. I mean that with all sincerity.

    I respect those who have concerns about Obama and his policies. I have dear dear friends who have GREAT concerns. I cannot relate to them in that area, but at the same time, I don’t discount their concerns. Especially because NO ONE is above reproach. There is NO perfect person. Obama is no savior. (Notice that the comments box here goes entirely unmoderated. The only thigns I delete are, like, porn advertisements. lol. So anyone who is anti-Obama has full and free reign to tell me exactly how I’m missing it. And some commenters here have done so, or at least taken the time to type out some of the reasons they have problems with Obama, some of them very coherant, might I add).

    What I am concerned about is very different. I believe that our faith is not supposed to be in a culture war or of a culture war. When our faith goes hand-in-hand with a culture war, I fear we’ve lost the message of the gospel altogether. Our faith is not supposed to be a fight against post-modernism any more than it is against modernism or the enlightenment or any other human way of thinking.

    Ways of thinking come and go…each has absolutely wonderful things in them, deep truths…and each has plenty of lies, too. One is not better than the other. Our faith is to be smack dab in the middle of the human system we find ourselves in—THAT is where we are called to walk in the Spirit and His fruit. How am I so sure of that? Well, the Incarnation of Christ pretty much sums it up. He didn’t walk above culture, but *in* it. (We are *in* it, not *of* it. Deep thoughts by Jack Handy). :)

    Folks are crossing MAJOR lines when they say that true Christians will only vote Republican, when they tell brothers and sisters that the state of their faith depends on their allegience to a political party. That is BIG STUFF, big stuff, running directly contrary to the cross of Christ. Political allegience does not salvation bring…or maintain.

    Jesus did not bring a message of our faith being dependant on government or political affiliation. In fact, that ticked off a whole lot of would-be followers of His, who were looking for a messiah who was going to focus on earthly rulers and get some ACTION going, baby. I fear that many in the conservative sphere are making the same mistake.

    This is not about pendulum swinging and firm opinions and post-legalism recovery. This is about what the point of following Christ is all about. In it, not of it, but sometimes it feels to me that the message is “not in it, not of it, ew,” and I think the world feels that and responds appropriately. When they hate us for loving them too much, well, then I won’t put up blog posts like this anymore.

    Warmly,
    Molly
    Who still wants to sit here for a half hour and respond to each comment… Oh, my crazy life! :)

  71. Posted by wysiwyg on November 14, 2008 at 3:20 pm

    Oh my,
    I can sooo relate to your comments Molly about your marriage. It is so much healthier to let each person be themselves and find a peaceable life. It is ok and you can grow in your walk with the Lord even if it is a little different than your spouse’s walk. How many years it took for me to figure that one out! Oy!
    Mandy N

  72. Augh! This is hilarious. I am popping in really quick in the middle of cleaning the kitchen and fixing snacks for a gaggle of kids about to descend upon me, and I’m listening to the godjourney.com podcast that just came out today…OH MY GOSH, it is so appropriate to a lot of the conversation here, particularly on marriage and anything related to the idea of work-harder-and-it-will-all-be-fine. And I so resonate with what they are saying about NOT being safe to be around. Oh man, I was Sooooo not safe to be around for anyone with deep pain or real problems. I had an answer for everything. And thought I was soo Biblical (and I meant well, I really did). I can say that the gift of pain has blessed me with a greater measure of “safe-to-be-around” than any thing else I can think of. I am quite sure I would have run from this gift if it had been offered in any other form than pain-that-cannot-be-avoided. Not that I like pain or want any more of it. Geesh, no. But a lot of good things have been birthed here…and…wince,wince…more to come, I am sure.

    wysisyg, I love that handle!

  73. Posted by Diane on November 14, 2008 at 4:12 pm

    Scott M
    Miles and Winner – wonderful writers!! Sara Miles book blew me away and Lauren Winner’s first book, Girl Meets God, is wonderful. I got the opportunity to meet Lauren and she is brilliant and funny.

  74. Posted by wysiwyg on November 14, 2008 at 5:19 pm

    I will have to check out some of the books/articles that you all have linked. My wordpress name doesn’t seem to link to me. I’m not trying to be overly anonymous. I sent you an email Molly.
    http://www.livingtheshema.com

  75. Piping in here to say I don’t blog with my husband and he generally doesn’t use his computer to chitchat because he works with his computer and associates it with work, research, or shopping (which is not a pleasure in his world.)

    We have been married for 28 years and love one another dearly, but we are definitely two separate people with distinct (and sometimes opposite,) opinions.

    And I generally do not attempt to represent his opinions online.

    I never thought it odd.

  76. Posted by Julia on November 14, 2008 at 5:52 pm

    Molly,
    I’m sorry if my words sounded too harsh. Your response was gracious and I understand what you mean by our faith not engaging the culture war.
    Jesus did reach down into our filth to drag us out.

    Christians who pass judgment on anyone’s salvation based on who they vote for is most certainly wrong…questioning anyone’s salvation for any reason is not our place.

    I have no more patience for the graceless church-goer, who rails against the evils of divorce, while breaking bread with an abusive husband.
    But, the upside to having escaped legalism is a greater empathy for the broken-hearted.
    Having said that, I’m concerned that the fear of legalism will make us unable to discern real evil as it does exist.

    Obama is not the culture, but as the leader of this country he will define it. Every leader has influence this way. This particular leader has already shown his disregard for life in his extreme measures concerning abortion.
    Can we call abortion evil? If so, can we call the man who encourages, supports and funds it evil? Or is he just misguided? Perhaps he is, perhaps he really believes abortion is a good thing for our freedom.

    I cannot judge the broken spirit that chooses abortion, but I can call abortion evil.
    And a man whose heart is so hardened that he sees nothing wrong with letting babies who survive abortion die, will harden his heart against all suffering…for the greater good, I’m sure.
    This is the leader who will define our culture.
    Do we engage it then?

    If we cannot find it in ourselves to recognize abortion for what it is and what it does to our culture when our President supports it, then we will be in the unenviable position of calling evil good and good evil.

  77. Posted by Liesl on November 14, 2008 at 6:23 pm

    Tonia – I never said that McCain/Palin are sinless. I simply said Obama promotes things that are sin and doesn’t acknowledge them as sin.

    You have bluntly misrepresented what I said. I think there’s alot of that going around in the Christian on-line community and it creates unneeded friction.

    Molly, out of curiousity where are you reading that
    “Folks are crossing MAJOR lines when they say that true Christians will only vote Republican, when they tell brothers and sisters that the state of their faith depends on their allegience to a political party.” I haven’t seen anyone here say that. Is it other conservative blogs or your social circle?

    Can you elaborate on what you mean by our faith and a culture war. I don’t see obedience to God’s commands as being cultural. We are to have faith in spite of the culture around us. And I’m confused – I never thought of the patriarchal legalism as evangelical Christianity – are you saying that’s what it’s from. I must admit I come from a background of a non-denomination church – I’m simply a Christian.

  78. Posted by tonia on November 14, 2008 at 6:49 pm

    well, it was a joke, Liesl….an attempt to illustrate that your logic train must travel in both directions.

    we’re all voting for men who promote sinful things in one way or another because all men are sinners. we’re given imperfect candidates and we have to choose between them. i think we all understand that you don’t agree with the reasons i and others voted for obama, but as a Bible-believing and honoring Christ-follower – one who takes both sin and grace seriously – i made my choice between the options and you made yours.

    peace, sister.

  79. Posted by acme on November 14, 2008 at 6:55 pm

    Leisl, I think the syllogism goes something like these when all of the parts are laid out on the table

    a. true Christians will only vote for a prolife party
    b. the only prolife party is Republican
    c. therefore, true Christians will only vote Republican

    or

    a. true Christians will only vote for a prolife party
    b. the Democrats are not a prolife party
    c. Therefore, people voting for Democrats cannot be true Christians

    Here is my logic. Abortion is a great tragedy–and the destruction of a tiny human–but it is neither the only nor the worst socially accepted sin. Neither parties’ hands are clean in this. The dehumanizing effects of sin are all around us–and I want to see both parties step up to the plate to honestly address ALL of the life issues.

    Here’s one way of doing this: http://go.sojo.net/campaign/prayerandpledge

    Finally, Obama did not and does not advocate withholding care from babies surviving an abortion. Here is a link to a source that fact checks the statements made by both parties and slaps them both, but this page tackles this issue in particular: http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_alive_baloney.html

  80. Real quick (why is it today that I only have computer time in quick snatches…Scott, I’ve been dying to comment on your comment, but…later, I guess, and that goes for others comments, too),

    Julia, I fully agree with you that abortion is a very very sad thing, and I also believe that the destruction of human life is far from ideal and, in most cases, flat out wrong.

    Here’s fact-checked Obama quotes on abortion (from what appears to be a non-partison writer):
    http://www.ontheissues.org/2008/Barack_Obama_Abortion.htm All quotes are documented, which is really nice, too.

    Here’s some:

    Obama on pro-life vs. pro-choice

    Q: The terms pro-choice and pro-life, do they encapsulate that reality in our 21st Century setting and can we find common ground?

    A: [Obama] I absolutely think we can find common ground. And it requires a couple of things. It requires us to acknowledge that..

    There is a moral dimension to abortion, which I think that all too often those of us who are pro-choice have not talked about or tried to tamp down. I think that’s a mistake because I think all of us understand that it is a wrenching choice for anybody to think about.

    People of good will can exist on both sides. That nobody wishes to be placed in a circumstance where they are even confronted with the choice of abortion. How we determine what’s right at that moment, I think, people of good will can differ.

    And if we can acknowledge that much, then we can certainly agree on the fact that we should be doing everything we can to avoid unwanted pregnancies that might even lead somebody to consider having an abortion. “

    Here’s Obama on Sex Education, Abstinence, etc:


    We’ve actually made progress over the last several years in reducing teen pregnancies, for example. And what I have consistently talked about is to take a comprehensive approach where we focus on abstinence, where we are teaching the sacredness of sexuality to our children.

    But we also recognize the importance of good medical care for women, that we’re also recognizing the importance of age-appropriate education to reduce risks. I do believe that contraception has to be part of that education process.

    And if we do those things, then I think that we can reduce abortions and I think we should make sure that adoption is an option for people out there. If we put all of those things in place, then I think we will take some of the edge off the debate.

    We’re not going to completely resolve it. At some point, there may just be an irreconcilable difference. And those who are opposed to abortion, I think, should continue to be able to lawfully object and try to change the laws. “

    Obama on Abortion Protesters:

    “[An abortion protester at a campaign event] handed me a pamphlet. “Mr. Obama, I know you’re a Christian, with a family of your own. So how can you support murdering babies?”
    I told him I understood his position but had to disagree with it. I explained my belief that few women made the decision to terminate a pregnancy casually; that any pregnant woman felt the full force of the moral issues involved when making that decision; that I feared a ban on abortion would force women to seek unsafe abortions, as they had once done in this country. I suggested that perhaps we could agree on ways to reduce the number of women who felt the need to have abortions in the first place.

    “I will pray for you,” the protester said. “I pray that you have a change of heart.” Neither my mind nor my heart changed that day, nor did they in the days to come. But that night, before I went to bed, I said a prayer of my own-that I might extend the same presumption of good faith to others that had been extended to me. “

    There are plenty more quotes and I took the time to read through them. Who knows when it’s a politician speaking—-do they actually mean what they say, or are they just saying it to look good… But if I am hearing Obama correctly, and if he’s telling the truth, then it doesn’t seem like he’s the rabid pro-abortionist that some are saying he is. He’s definitely pro-abortion, yes. But I admit to being heartened that he sounds committed to seeing that measures to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies are a priority.

    (Interesting fact that the number of abortions has been steadily declining since the early 1980’s. Wow. I could venture a number of guesses as to why that is, but it’s nice…very nice to hear).

    Anyways, I do not view abortion as a positive thing, not at all. I feel nothing but deep compassion for women who’ve had abortions, some of whom I am friends with. Abortion just plain sucks. Unwanted pregnancies just plain suck, too. Very very hard thing, very difficult thing to walk through, certainly a great sacrifice, one that generally a woman has to pay a full price for and the sperm donar gets to walk away scott-free from. This is part of the reason I think many feminists hang on so tightly to abortion: they are seeing a grossly unfair situation for the women, and part of lowering abortion rates involves communicating to men their equal responsibility and making it very difficult for them to evade it, etc…

    I am hoping that abortion continues to decline. I am hoping that other parts of the government (Senate, Congress) effectively curb any pro-abortion legislation from Obama. I’ve written posts in the past about my pro-life stance informing other issues as well (such as why I’m very against the pro-torture junk that passed for law under the Bush administration).

    This comment may come off disjointed…I’ve spent a second here, a minute here, typing it while juggling a million other things…
    Love,
    Molly

  81. Posted by Liesl on November 14, 2008 at 9:59 pm

    Acme – I’ve never said this:
    “a. true Christians will only vote for a prolife party
    b. the only prolife party is Republican
    c. therefore, true Christians will only vote Republican”

    It’s so frustrating how people are reading way more into something. I don’t make judgements on whether or not someone is a true Christian based on how they voted. Some of my closest, most Godly, morally conservative friends voted for Obama. I just don’t understand how. My only point was that Obama doesn’t acknowledge that things he supports and federally funds is sin. And his lack of moral character was only one of the many reasons I couldn’t vote for him. Besides the moral issues I don’t think his plan for America in terms of freedom of religion, national security, and economics is the best. All other things considered, if abortion was the absolute only thing I disagreed with Obama, I would have voted for him.

    It’s also frustrating for Christians to claim that if a fellow Christians takes a strong stance against abortion and that was part of their voting platform that they don’t care about all life. Give me a break.

    Tonia – sorry but McCain didn’t want to take my tax dollars and fund more abortions.

    I personally don’t think abortion should be outlawed, it’s too unsafe, people will have them anyway. I just don’t want to pay for something I find morally reprehensible. I’d much rather my tax dollars go to pay for the woman’s pregnancy care, etc.

  82. Posted by Jenn on November 15, 2008 at 6:23 am

    Following a rabbit trail here but just wanted to peak in to say that I so appreciate your honesty about your marriage. My dh and I love each other immensely. We love hard and fight hard. :) Our spiritual journeys for the last 2 yrs have been on VERY different pages and we continue to discuss, disect, cry and love over this place that we find ourselves in. You’ve always been a breath of fresh air to read but reading this was especially needed.

  83. Posted by acme on November 15, 2008 at 7:01 am

    I’ve gone back to read and reread what’s been said so far, because understanding someone else’s heart, mind, and argument cannot be done quickly.

    Leisl, I was not saying that YOU were using this logic–I was unpacking the logic that many pro-life Christians use–and yes, I know a number of them personally.

    However, then you said, “My only point was that Obama doesn’t acknowledge that things he supports and federally funds is sin. And his lack of moral character was only one of the many reasons I couldn’t vote for him. ”

    I think you missed Julia’s point – there are “things” that McCain and Palin support and federally fund that are also sin that they won’t acknowledge are sin. (Using the religious word sin is problematic to discuss government issues–knowing that our political leaders may, in fact, see what constitutes moral and ethical behavior differently.)

    I believe that federal funding of abortion comes down to paying for it through Medicaid/Medicare for people who could not pay for it themselves–and who also have tremendous difficulties accessing appropriate healthcare, including regular doctors visits, contraceptives, prenatal care, well-baby visits, immunizations, mental health care, drug treatment, and more.

    Adequate health care is a RIGHT for all Americans–and its lack here in American is a significant moral failure. I am glad to pay taxes for public schools, public libraries, public roads, and a host of other public services.

  84. Liesl,

    I understand what you are saying about abortion and not wanting to support Obama’s choices in that.

    I honestly get it.

    But I find your comments confusing sometimes, to be honest. Even what you say in this last one makes me scratch my head as to what you are trying to accomplish in these discussions.

    Perhaps I am just *hearing* you the wrong way.

    Nothing more frustrating than trying to have a conversation on-line. :)

    Off to soccer and a lovely Saturday,

    Tonia

  85. What a great conversation. Molly, I really admire and appreciate the transparency of your writing as you pursue your journey.

  86. Posted by Holly on November 15, 2008 at 1:24 pm

    Thanks, Molly…I like my little pin. :)

    Hope your weekend is going okay.

    I think that even in close close close best-friend type marriages it is “okay” for people to be on different pages and it is healthy for them to be individuals. A lot of very re-affirming freedom can come from that.

    Maura, thanks for responding. :) I really don’t want to be found here defending 150,000 in clothing. :) But here I am. :)

    That’s been spoken of so much, made pretty clear that the RNC had staffers and stylists who bought that clothing for Sarah – not that she ordered it or demanded it. About 1/3 of it was actually used – and then returned too. It’s not so much about the costs – it’s about “who” asked for it, who purchased it. The second issue was clothing that was said to have been purchased above and beyond that, that Sarah ORDERED lower level staffers to put it on their cards. THAT part has been pure speculation and not backed up.

    Regardless – this isn’t a hill I care to die upon. :) Really. I’m willing to let it all fade into ethereal dusk.

    There’s just so much info out there – what a plethora of written words! I find myself skeptical of almost EVERYTHING! Even Factcheck and snopes are skewed to the Democratic side (and I do not think people have to vote Republican until the Rapture in order to be Christians) :) and are owned by the Annenburg Foundation which is leftist. Who to believe these days?

    Best wishes -

    Holly

  87. Posted by ambitiousoutsider on November 15, 2008 at 1:53 pm

    thanks, Holly – I, too, will let it go. I bet you and I are a lot alike, and I hate how often I find myself acting just like this cartoon:

    http://xkcd.com/386/

    ugh! I don’t want to be that ridiculous guy! (but it’s hard).

    so I *won’t* point out that the annenberg foundation was founded and is run by republicans. ;)

    maura

  88. Posted by Julia on November 15, 2008 at 2:21 pm

    “I don’t see obedience to God’s commands as being cultural” Thank you, Leisl. That is an important point to be made.
    In our effort not to judge others, and not let others judge us in the culture wars, we are in danger of missing the real evil that stands before us.
    I’m not talking about smoking or drinking or even Bratz dolls here, I’m talking about a culture of death that is the natural consequence of a leader who embraces it.

    Molly,
    I’ve read all those quotes from Obama and listened to his speeches for the last two years. If his actions had anything to do with his words, there would be no argument from me about his leadership.
    But, Obama’s actions have shown what he really believes about life and death.
    He DID vote against the federal Born Alive Act.
    He DID obstruct the introduction of the Infant Born Alive legislation during his time as an Illinois Senator…he was on the committee which introduced the bill and he wouldn’t allow it to come to a vote.
    When the state congress finally got it to a vote, Obama voted against it once and voted present to abstain. They were only able to pass it when Obama left the state legislature.
    The reasons he gave for voting against these life-saving measures were because he said there were already laws safeguarding babies who survive abortion.
    This was patently untrue. He was citing the Equal Protection clause in the constitution which did not recognize the unborn as falling under equal protection…hence the need for new legislation.

    I say this again, because people still want to believe that Obama wants to ‘reduce’ abortion. It is simply not possible when you vote to the left of NARAL on abortion issues, and when you promise to fund more abortion clinics not only here, but in other countries.
    These are his actions! Let them speak louder than his words.

    I’m sorry acme, I haven’t seen anything in our Constitution or Bill of Rights which tells Americans they have a right to health care.
    “Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness does not equate with the government telling me which doctor I can go to or what treatments I’m allowed to have. In fact, I think the government telling me to do anything outside of civil law interferes with the ‘liberty’ part.

    As to Obama’s other policies: forced volunteerism, youth conscription, spreading the wealth, we can argue for days on whether those things are evil, but the people who see them as such can be forgiven for saying “Obama=Satan”.

  89. Posted by acme on November 15, 2008 at 2:51 pm

    oops–so much for reading carefully–I said Julia’s comment but meant Tonia’s comment. I think Julia and I will have to dig a little deeper to find common ground, but I think it’s worth it to find points of agreement in order to move forward.

    There’s a great article in Time magazine today looking at the long view of the balancing act between safety and freedom (long meaning FDR or so). Here’s the link: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1858771,00.html

  90. Aww… I really miss having THIS fire in me! I stand in awe of you, the great Molly in Alaska, who still has the guts to really pour her heart into her posts! You are so encouraging! STAND STRONG SISTER!

  91. Posted by Holly on November 15, 2008 at 5:35 pm

    Thanks, Maura, my friend. :)

    To be fair, I *won’t* point out that it doesn’t matter what political background it comes from, anything that involves Chicago politics and the education system won’t be good. :)

    Nor that Bill Ayers was chairman of the board of the Chicago Annenberg Challenge, a foundation where Ayers was a founder and guiding force.

    http://article.nationalreview.com/print/?q=MTgwZTVmN2QyNzk2MmUxMzA5OTg0ODZlM2Y2OGI0NDM=

    :)

  92. Posted by Holly on November 15, 2008 at 5:53 pm

    Question: Are people who believe that Jesus will come back to be considered “fringe?” Really? Am I that fringe? It wouldn’t bother me, I just wonder if that is true in Christendom today. I’ve been reading differing perspectives from the Ancients via my husband’s pastoral library…it is interesting.

    Julia, I’m with you and your last statement. There are some major valid concerns. I just read Obama’s interview at Christianity Today. It’s from 2004 and is very telling. It tells that he is a thoughtful man – but that he has some very liberal ideas regarding Jesus and society.

    I have been thinking all afternoon about the culture wars – and while I agree that the Christian’s main purpose is not to war against a culture, I can’t quite embrace the concept that we should do nothing to stand against cultures of death.

    For those of you who believe we are to go with the flow of culture, engage it, bring Christ to it – but are not to stand against any negative progression…are you simply saying we accept homosexual marriage and abortion (for example) at any stage as a fundamental right? Should there be no legislation against these things (but rather legislation to protect our environment?)

    This is not a challenging statement, but a curious one.

    What is your response to the culture that is attacking Christians? There are homosexual activists all over the United States who are attacking churches over the passage of Prop 8. In Lansing, Mi, for example, just THIS week activists infiltrated a prayer service that had children in attendance, and flung prophylactics as they shouted things like “Jesus is gay” and staged a lesbian kiss-in. Another church had windows broken and feces smeared on the church. That church did not even campaign against prop 8.

    I truly am curious as to your thoughts. We give up, and hand over legislation? We give them our children right after birthing them, take them to lesbian marriages for field trips? Is that the way of Christ, the way of love?

    See, it seems to me that it doesn’t matter if you love the people and care for them so much – if you oppose the agenda and the way the agenda affects your society and your children – they think you hate them. You can’t win unless you absolutely do nothing…and then you really don’t win.

    What is the way of Christ?

    What, if we completely disengage from what is perceived as a “culture war”, will we hand our children? It’s clear that people aren’t our enemy – all people need Jesus. But how to meet these issues in our day? I think that is our challenge. I am praying to be strong and also to have wisdom.

  93. Posted by Scott M on November 15, 2008 at 6:58 pm

    Holly, as Christians we don’t ‘respond to a culture’. Or at least we shouldn’t. All of us carry with us some formative, native culture. Culture in this sense is not something you choose nor is it something you avoid. I have the feeling that many who comment here are more or less ‘natives’ of the christian evangelical subculture of the Western modern culture. Others, such as myself, we more shaped by pluralistic and deconstructive postmodern forces. Very likely most of us were shaped by the late 20th century American culture — both in its more, but not entirely, positive forms of rights and freedoms and in its more negative forms of materialism, consumerism, and narcissism. Culture is something everyone has.

    Hopefully, as followers of Jesus of Nazareth, we are being reshaped to conform to the culture of his Kingdom. But that’s a lifelong and distinctly personal, not impersonal, process that ultimately demands all that we have and much that we might have thought we were. Perhaps in some sense those more like me have it easier. I don’t often tend to think my native culture actually is synonymous with the culture of the Kingdom. Rather, it has been and is constantly challenged, often in ways I did not expect. I have the sense, right or wrong, that sometimes those formed within the modern evangelical subculture mistake that culture for the culture of the Kingdom.

    How do we respond to any challenge, any offense, any affront? Jesus and the entire NT is pretty clear on this one. The clearest indication that the evangelical subculture is not the culture of the Kingdom is that is so often fails to shape people to naturally respond this way. We are to respond in love. Period. Always. Without exception. No ‘Get Out of Love Free’ cards.

    Of course, we immediately face a problem of language. ‘Love’ is a word with squishy definitions that cover the whole map. I don’t think there is any single English word that can convey what Jesus commands. (And make no mistake, it is not simply a ‘teaching’ you can take or leave. If you say you follow him, it is a command.) For me, I’ve found that Dallas Willard best captures the meaning in English of this most important command. He defines it as actively willing the good for that which is loved. This requires discernment. We must correctly (with the aid of the Spirit always) ascertain what is or is not to their ‘good’. We cannot simply ask them. People often desire things that are harmful, even deadly. And then we must act on that discernment in whatever we can.

    Our action may be prayer. (Never “just” prayer. Prayer is a mystery of communion with God. There is no “just” involved in that.) Or our action may be much more physical and immediate. It may cost us. Greatly. It has often cost Christians their apparent freedom and their lives (though we know in the Resurrection there is no death). Nevertheless, this is the command. When we do less (and my Lord and God knows I am the greatest of sinners), we do not follow the one we name Lord. We are hypocrites in the exact sense that Jesus used the word. Woe to us.

    Now when you consider it in these terms, it is obvious that one cannot ‘love’ a culture. How do discern the ‘good’ for a culture? How do you actively will it? No. We love human beings. Eikons of God. And we love the ones who are placed in our path, whether they are lovable or not. In the course of loving these individual eikons as they should be love, in full honor of the one whose image they bear, we may indeed change the culture that bore them. Christians have done so again and again from the first centuries on. But that is how it works.

    The ‘culture warriors’ for all practical purposes have almost everything backwards. It’s not that they are bad people. I believe many of them are good people (probably better than me) or at least deeply desire to become good people. But they are working diligently to clean the outside of the cup in the hope that the inside will somehow become clean as well. And that’s not how Jesus commanded us to live. It just isn’t.

  94. Good mullings, Holly, and fair questions.

    I tend to think there’s got to be a middle way. I also think that every area is going to be different. What is required of me in my Alaskan community is going to be different from the person living in Hollywood. The same underlying things should be the foundation for both people—-ie, love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, meekness, and self-control [the fruit born by those who are walking with our God]—but the outward actions may be different, the issues being dealt with being totally different.

    Legislating marriage… I’m not sure the govt. should be all that involved in that arena as it is. [I could be totally wrong here, but I really like the idea of the govt offering civil unions, and the church offering "marriages," but that's just me].

    I personally do not see gay marriage as a weapon hurled at straight marriage, something that will crumble the traditional family into pieces. I just don’t. We’re told it will RUIN the traditional family, but it seems to me that the family has been a rather dysfunctional thing ever since the first family existed (Cain and Abel, anyone?). So the subject is not something that gets me all riled up. Maybe if I lived where people were smearing my walls with feces, I’d feel differently. I’ve never heard of anything like that—seems like a hate crime to me, and should be prosecuted accordingly.

    I guess I would caution with the extreme black and white pictures. No one is saying that if Democratic legislation passes, we’ll have to take newborn babies to gay marriages for field trips. I don’t know if that kind of rhetoric is helpful, just as I don’t think that the Left claiming that fundamentalist Christians will be throwing out all the school science books in the land if the Republican’s get in power is helpful rhetoric.

    Is being gay the ultimate sin? The only sin? Is being gay a sin at all? (Is it possible that someone could be born with a brain that is wired to be same-sex attracted? Is different wiring a sin? Or is the sin confined to the actions taken?

    Because most of the time, what I hear is that the gay *person* is the monstrosity, not the act of gay sex. Do we say that the ADD brian is a sin, because the kid has a harder time being “self-controlled?” Do we say that the kids with ADD are going to ruin all the self-controlled children? Etc)…

    It’s one of our pet issues, to be sure, the whole homosexual thing. It’s like we focus on it and can’t see anything else. Pity the poor soul who was born with a brain that is wired to find the same sex attractive. Because the church, which may be full of selfish greedy arrogant lovers-of-money will blast that poor guy to bits for daring to say he’s wired differently, and they’ll all go home and feel righteous about it, too.

    I just think that when all is said and done, God is going to judge things a lot differently than we think He might have. I’m thinking of the prayers of the Pharisee and the tax-collector…one looked righteous on the outside and thought he was righteous, too, but God literally couldn’t even hear his prayer. The prayer of the sinful-but-humble tax-collecter? Heard. Weird. But Jesus said it, not me.

    The lesbian kiss-in’s don’t happen in my neck of the woods, not even anywhere close. In fact, I’d be pretty darn impressed if anyone had the guts to admit they were gay, here. It’s just not “what you do.” I think I must live in conservative central or something, I guess. :) One of my cousins here is gay. I think he keeps it pretty close to his chest. I can’t say that I blame him. An aquaintance of mine has a daughter who felt she was gay…this was during high school…it was an interesting road my friend had to walk… and her daughter recieved a LOT of persecution, and my friend lost many dear dear family friends when her daughter decided to “come out.” The girl had been really involved in her church before this…she is very hurting right now, very angry at the church. I don’t know…having real live faces makes the situation a lot more difficult to throw a firm judgement at. Black is black and white is white, but there is a lot of grey everywhere. This girl legitimately felt like her body worked differently than mine did as a teenager. Is it a sin to be in a body where the wiring isn’t normal, where attraction works differently than what you’d planned? Is it the act of sex that is sinful? Or is it the wiring itself that is sinful?

    This girl got the message that it was her wiring, and it came across loud and clear. They told her that she was just doing this for attention, that she was making it up, that if she *tried* harder, she’d feel differently… Do we tell that to the ADD kid? To the person with bi-polar? Their minds don’t work the way that “regular” minds work. Are we being arrogant when we say that all gays and lesbians, who claim to feel that they are literally *wired* differently, aren’t? The faith-movement did that to sick people. Got cancer and didn’t get healed? Well, something is wrong with you, because if you had real faith, you’d be healed. Talk about condemnation. Are we guilty of doing the same thing to those who feel that their bodies are wired different sexually? I don’t like it when the hyper-patriarchy camp tells me that I’m lesser, that I’m a lower form of God’s glory and a man is a higher form of God’s glory. It hurts. And it makes me mad. I bet it feels similar to be stuck in a body that is wired to be attracted to the same sex instead of the opposite sex. I bet it feels like the church is telling you that you are a lesser than, that something is wrong with you.

    I love the way that Jamie Arpin-Ricci handles it…he has a blog (google it, I can’t remember the name of it) where he did a series a while back talking honestly about his same-sex attraction. He is a missionary. He is also married and has kids. And he also says that he has had a same-sex attraction since he became a teenager. Because he is a follower of Christ, he decided not to act on it. But he says it is very difficult. He expects it always will be difficult. All he can do is obey. But obedience does not take the attraction away. He just doesn’t act on it. Now that’s the kind of stuff that tells a homosexual that they are in NO WAY a lesser person becuase of the drives of their body. I found his story fascinating. I wish the Christian community was safe enough for more poeple to be able to tell stories like that one, stories where you don’t magically get “fixed” and everything’s all better and perfect, but stories where you are broken, but God inhabits cracked vessels and His power shines through all the brighter because of it.

    What kind of world did Jesus walk in? It was a pretty gruesome violent place, occupied Israel was. The government was generally tyrannical in nature, and gross injustice seems like it was normative. (So was sexual sin…in a variety of forms, no less).

    How did Jesus respond to it? What did He do? Where did He go? How did He handle it? I think mulling over these things can be really helpful in helping us discern how we make decisions about our culture.

    (And do you really think our culture is a culture of death? I don’t. I think it has death and destruction working in it, but it also has many good things in it as well. The fact that I learned to read and am typing coherantly to you, for example-lol).

    Same could be said for mulling over what Paul did… He walked through plenty of pagan cities… how did he respond to those places? What did he say about those governments? How much emphasis did he place on telling Christians working to clean up the outward actions of the communities they lived in…?

    Do we, as Christians, have the mandate to see legislation passed that will clean up the outside of the cup, as it were, of others lives? I don’t know… Is cleaning the outside of the cup loving? It seems like God didn’t think the “clean the outside of the cup” policy was good. He abolished it (2 Cor. 3) and invited us into a new covenant that cleaned the inside first.

    I feel like what the conservative agenda is doing, though, is out there trying to buff and polish the outside of everyone’s cups, whether they like it or not, and often doing so their OUR OWN cup is covered with grime… They call us hypocrites…we’re so busy focusing on their sin, we hardly have any time to look inward.

    I don’t know. I have a lot of questions, and not very many firm answers. I just know that when the church has a reputation for being the kind of pain in the butt that Mother Theresa was, then maybe we’ll have earned the right to point our fingers at the lives of those around us. Until that time…I think the reason that the secular culture describes Christians as arrogant and self-righteous is…because in general, the church acts arrogant and self-righteous to the world.

    I definitely don’t think the answer involves doing nothing. I know that Love is the opposite of passivity. Love doesn’t sit around and do nothing. I guess I question how much of the church’s agenda is born of love? We certainly aren’t known for Love, and yet that was what Jesus said we’d be known for. What the answer is to that problem, exactly, I don’t really know.

    Rambling thoughts… sorry I’m not full of answers. Just more questions. :)

  95. Hey, Scott, we were posting at the same time. Shoot. I wish I just would have let you talk. :)

  96. Posted by Scott M on November 15, 2008 at 7:32 pm

    Comments earlier in this thread connect to some thoughts whirling around my head lately. Recently I was listening to something where someone was presenting a collection of data points and observations and making the implicit claim that these all ‘objectively’ meant something. The details don’t really matter. My thought is not about any specific claim.

    Rather, this time as the deconstruction stream in the whirlwind of my experience of reality engaged and I began mentally collapsing the truth claims of the speaker, I became self-aware enough to notice what I was doing and ask: Why? Why is this part of my interpretive grid and experiential reality engaged when someone asserts (explicitly or implicitly) that their truth claims are somehow ‘objective’? And why is it not engaged, or not engaged with the same intensity when they don’t?

    Once I framed the question that way, I was able to begin to approach an answer. You see, it is axiomatic to me that no human truth claim is or can be purely ‘objective’. Have ten people witness the same intense event or hand them ten assorted ‘facts’ and, if you do not first allow them to interact and discuss, you will typically get ten different interpretations of the ‘objective’ reality back. Everything we encounter passes through layer upon layer of interpretation, much of it unconscious. That’s just how things are.

    So, I was able to see that my deconstructive whirlwind becomes more engaged when people assert ‘objectivity’ because on some level I interpret that as something akin to a ‘lie’. I sense in that action a ‘will to power’ attacking me. The individual is asserting ‘objectivity’ in order to privilege their truth claim to one degree or another. I don’t really process any of that consciously or deliberately. Rather, I encounter it and my defenses are engaged. And they are pretty formidable defenses. I deconstruct beliefs I am trying on with disturbing regularity. The less personal beliefs of others are child’s play by comparison — at least for my understanding, which is all my defenses really protect.

    Consciously, of course, I know that’s usually not the case. Most people are not deliberately lying or being manipulative. They are simply trying to process, interpret, and respond to the world through the grid of their own cultural framework and shaping. They are in essence acting in the same way I am, but from a different grid and through a different lens. The sparks arise because our frameworks are much like oil and water. They don’t mix very well. They mix less well when we do not take the time or lack the self-awareness to recognize what is happening.

    It’s hard to love those who are unlike you.

    Of course, that means there is no such as an unbiased, objective human being working within ‘the media’. (Like ‘the culture’, ‘the media’ is not some thing with independent life. It is formed of people. People we are to love when we encounter them in the course of our lives.) I find it interesting that those who, perhaps, look for an ‘objective media’ are shocked, I say shocked, to find it is subjective and influence by the biases of people. I also find it interesting that whereever such a person lands on the ideological spectrum, it is always ‘against’ them that this media is biased, usually by some ludicrous percentage. It’s strange that this ‘mainstream media’ can ‘objectively’ be shown to be 75% biased toward ‘liberals’ or 75% biased toward ‘conservatives’.

    But I think it comes back full circle to the way we perceive the world around us and respond to the ‘facts’ we are presented. Of course we encounter ‘bias’ and ’subjectivity’ in almost everything we encounter more complicated than 2+2. (Hmmmm. And there are places you can go in math where that is less than clear, but that’s another train of thought.)

    We ourselves are also biased and subjective. As a friend of mine would, perhaps coarsely, say, “Put on your big girl panties and get over it.” (He typically says that to guys, so hopefully those who actually do wear big girl panties won’t be too offended.) When anyone starts throwing around percentages, my postmodern suspicion immediately brings Mark Twain to bear.

    Anyway, just some thoughts, probably not fully formed yet, whirling around my head.

  97. Posted by Scott M on November 15, 2008 at 7:41 pm

    Oh, and Holly, I should probably answer a question you directly ask. No, it is not ‘fringe’ to believe that Jesus will return. In fact, it is certainly right in the center of orthodoxy, though in many senses he has gone nowhere. But there will be a time of unveiling and new creation when all will be filled not just with the glory of the Lord (Isaiah 6) but with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord (Isaiah 11 and Habakkuk). Jesus is not in some other reality. There is this creation, this reality, and he is here, functioning as the head of the church, sustaining everything from moment to moment, intimately engaged with his creation. But at some point in time all veils will be dropped and we all stand in the full consuming fire of the love of God. And (Romans 8 especially) all creation will be made new.

    Now, the 19th (or was it 18th – must check) century Darbyite dispensational innovation is certainly only believed by a small percentage of those (both present with us and asleep in the Lord) who follow Jesus of Nazareth. So, if percentages are your game, I suppose it could be called ‘fringe’. And it is only from that segment of Christianity that I have seen these warnings of ‘anti-christ’, etc.

  98. I did a lot of research on preterist view, now being embraced by folks in the Reformed tradition and elsewehre too, most notably by folks like RC Sproul (wrote a book on why he is a partial preterist). They don’t believe Jesus is coming back but think that the “end times prophecies” are referring to the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD. They really have a lot of good points. They didn’t win me over. But boy, did they ever make me think and pull out my Bible. I think my Darby-inspired Dispy theology was ripped to shreds after that year was out.

    So I admit to thinking that hte Left Behind series can go away and never come back. Nice story. Where’s the chapter and verse? I grew up dispensationalist and after carefully picking it over with a fine tooth comb, find it heavy on REAAALY stretched arguments from single phrases of Scripture…stuff we rake the “liberals” over the coals with, but accept quickly when it comes from “our own.”

    To me, Darby-esque dispensationalism relies more on man’s interpretation than it does actual solid SCripture. So it’s nothing that I’m interested in banking on either. So, bottom line, I’m personally an “I Don’t Know-ist.” But I do think that Jesus will appear in the clouds someday, the veil truly lifted. All the rest…I dunno.

  99. Posted by Julia on November 15, 2008 at 8:00 pm

    Okay Scott,
    I’m fascinated by your comments. Honest.
    I understand what you mean by human truth being subjective and we all have bias and filters. Where then does objective truth stand? Can you give me an example? I really do want to know what you think.

    Also, I’m wondering about your response to Holly’s question about the Anti-Christ. Is it really a fringe of Christianity that believes in a literal Satan-possessed man who will bring about a one-world rule? Again, I’m asking this only because of curiostiy…no gotchas. :)

  100. Posted by Julia on November 15, 2008 at 8:05 pm

    I’m sorry. I need to clear this up. Holly asked about the return of Christ being fringe…not the anti-christ.
    But, I would still like to know if belief in a literal anti-christ is fringe.

  101. Btw, I do think there is such a thing as sexual sin, and I believe sexual sin is very very destructive and is prohibited for a reason. I don’t think, however, that we’re handling it the right way, on the whole.

    I hate the whole thing. I just freaked my daughter out today by telling her about HPV while we were driving in the car… I think I may have scarred her for life. She asked about whether or not sex could make you sick (we’d been talking about sexual abuse recently, because she was going to a slumber party, and I wanted her to be aware that her body was hers and not for anyone else to touch, etc…I have great memories of slumber parties, but have heard from too many women about how they were sexually abused at a sleepover…kind of freaky…I just wanted her to have the basic info on what is not appropriate)… So, on the sickness thing, I told her that sometimes, and I used HPV as my example, since I had read recently that studies are showing one in four virgin teenage girls WILL get HPV on their first sexual encounter.

    I thought I was careful, I thought I worded it in language appropriate to her 10 year old brain. I included stuff about how great sex was, and that the fact that it feels so good is one of the major reasons why it’s a popular thing to do…but that there were reasons it wasn’t meant to be “spread out,” such as HPV…that God wasn’t trying to take something fun from us by saying that sex is to be kept for a covenanted relationship, but to keep us safe and healthy and to let it BE fun… Not that HPV will ruin a person’s life or anything, but just that it’s going to make things difficult…why not avoid it if possible?

    Well, I think I traumatized her. She just couldn’t believe it. She kept talking about it afterwards…like she was scared to leave our house. ARGH!

    I felt SO BAD. Ugh. How how how do you explain this stuff to kids, much less to adults? HPV is just the tip of the iceberg. I wish I didn’t have to say anything, tell her anything. Ugh. What is the “right way” to handle all of this. I can’t even figure that out for my own kids, much less my nation. Yeesh.

    PS.

    On the anti-christ, if the preterists or partial-preterists are right, he already happened. Interesting article to that end:
    http://planetpreterist.com/modules.php?name=News&file=print&sid=5522

    If the dispensationalists are right, he is coming. Either way, I’m not getting nuttin’ on my wrist or forehead. Ha.

  102. Posted by Holly on November 15, 2008 at 8:39 pm

    Oh, Molly. I’m not talking with stark and graphic pictures that are empty rhetoric. These are true and literal events that have either happened this week or in the past month. Didn’t you see the news story about the kindergarteners that were taken on a field trip to their lesbian teacher’s wedding? Only three children were opted out of the field trip. And the riots over prop 8? Very real!

    I am happy to link to all of these stories tomorrow if you wish – it’s late here and I still have laundry to do tonight though.

    Thanks Scott and Molly for your thoughts on my questions. I haven’t had time to think it all through, and maybe there are others who will want to dive in.

    G’night -

  103. Posted by Scott M on November 15, 2008 at 8:43 pm

    Molleth and Julia, my perception of the ‘Second Coming’ can be decently captured as “Jesus Christ will come again in power and glory and of his Kingdom there will be no end.” To the extent that I’m specifically in any category, I’m probably something like an ‘amillenialist’. But that doesn’t really mean much of anything. I do think the preterists get a lot right. I do think that an awful lot of what Jesus specifically prophesied was about the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in AD 70 by the Romans (which just like the actions of the Assyrians and Babylonians was prophesied as the judgment of God on the nation of Israel). Probably not all. But certainly quite a bit. In its most immediate sense, Revelation is certainly talking a lot about Nero and Rome in Jewish apocalyptic language. I would never say that’s its only sense. and I think the final picture of the city of God coming down to earth, all things being made new, and all of us having work pictured in the tree whose leaves are for the healing of the nations are still in the future.

    I have read the Left Behind books. I run in circles where such things are not uncommon. And I enjoyed them. I love fantasy. And though they are not always written as well as they might have been, the authors developed over time and the story and characters became more gripping. I even tried on the beliefs of that perspective to see if they fit since it’s more or less the ‘official’ teaching of our church. They deconstructed pretty quickly.

    And Julia, it’s a small percentage. It’s a recent innovation and most Christians don’t believe it. Most Christians are, in fact, amillenial (even though that’s an extremely nebulous category). The other groups are largely innovations of the modern era and have never really caught on except in pockets of Protestantism. I didn’t call them ‘fringe’. I said if you base your definition of ‘fringe’ on percentages, then that perspective could be called ‘fringe’.

    That does bring up another point though. If something is prevalent within a person’s contextual grid, it is rarely viewed as ‘fringe’, even if that grid is a small subset of a larger whole. There’s probably some insight that could be gleaned from that, but it’s late and escapes me.

    Julia, I’m not sure what you mean by your ‘truth’ question, so I don’t really know how to respond. Pilate’s question is the only thing running through my head as I read it at the moment. And Jesus’ answer. But I don’t have any idea what you mean by your modifier of ‘truth’. I’ve discovered there is an enormous range of meaning when people use that word, especially in that position.

  104. Btw, here is missionary Jamie Arpin-Ricci talking about his own personal thoughts on same-sex attraction, something he himself says he has:
    http://emergentvoyageurs.blog.com/1485527/

    and further reflections about how the church must handle the issue if it wants its voice to be heard:
    http://missional.blog.com/2563151/

    Really good stuff… I appreciate the guts it took to put something like this out there.

  105. i think the actions of the “activists” holly described are horrible and – as molly said – should be prosecuted as hate crimes.

    just as we should prosecute abortion activists who threaten or try to kill abortion doctors….or environmental activists who burn down research centers….or skinheads who beat up innocent people for having the wrong skin color…or choose your activist and your crime. :)

    my point is these are extremists and no sane person condones their actions. every homosexual is not acting in these terrible ways, in fact, i think it is a teensy minority of our population that would even consider such things.

    the conversation would be a lot more interesting and fruitful if we could talk about the realities of everyday life instead of depersonalizing groups into someone “other” than us. as molly said, these people we are talking about are the lesbian daughter of a friend, the missionary who struggles with same-sex attraction, the guy next door. kwim?

  106. oh! i wanted to add i totally agree with you molly on the idea of making marriage a church issue and not a state one.

    i really don’t understand why we fight so hard to make laws out of the sacred parts of our faith. let the state issue civil licenses for legal partnerships and let the church define marriage.

    and then, if we really want to save traditional marriage we can get to work on divorce and infidelity issues (along with upholding sexual purity) in our own back yard.

  107. Gosh Molly, you sure get a lotta chat!

    I read some of the left behind stuff years ago. Nice soap opera. ;)

    I do think that preaching the rapture is preaching defeatist theology. It is like much of the church is just hunkering down, riding out the ‘bad times’ in the world, waiting to be raptured. I see a glorious victory in the word, not this defeatist teaching.

    Just about to race off to church, but I wondered if you might be interested in this:

    http://www.neighbours-and-nations.co.uk/resourcesmp3s.html

    Check out the Tony Fitzgerald podcasts. This is pretty much what our church preaches and for me, it is like a piece of the puzzle has fallen into place. I’d send you a link to our church, but it has a lot of personal details on it about us that I don’t really want www’d!! ha ha!

    Our church preaches kingdom, and it is goooood! We believe God is restoring the apostolic in the church in the present age. I wish I could chat more, but got to fly!

    Vxx

  108. Scott M, on November 15th, 2008 at 8:43 pm Said:
    Molleth and Julia, my perception of the ‘Second Coming’ can be decently captured as “Jesus Christ will come again in power and glory and of his Kingdom there will be no end.”

    Hmmm…. Sounds like the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed, which, in reaction to Marcellus, set forth Luke 1:33a, in opposition to 1 Corinthians 15:24-28. :^)

  109. “my point is these are extremists and no sane person condones their actions. every homosexual is not acting in these terrible ways, in fact, i think it is a teensy minority of our population that would even consider such things.

    the conversation would be a lot more interesting and fruitful if we could talk about the realities of everyday life instead of depersonalizing groups into someone “other” than us. as molly said, these people we are talking about are the lesbian daughter of a friend, the missionary who struggles with same-sex attraction, the guy next door. kwim?”

    Realities of everyday life…for two parish priests in my neighborhood back in the mid to late 80’s, it was having to come early every Sunday to see whether the local chapter of ACT-UP had struck their church again with vandalism…oops, “artwork” and “performance art”, as it was described by the LA Times.

    So these were extremists. But it is part of some people’s every day life that they have to deal with extremists. It was part of the everyday life of someone I met to be in church one Sunday evening when a group of homosexual activists literally attacked the church, and the husbands and fathers had to barricade the doors and put stuff in front of the broken windows, just to protect their wives and children, until the police finally arrived.

    Yes, those are extremists. Just like the Prop 8 activists on Twitter and blogs and here and there on the Internet who have spewed hatred and threats towards Christians and who have uttered blasphemies against my Savior.

    My sister-in-law’s everyday reality has been as a volunteer for Prop 8 in California, Contrary to what large segments of our state population seem to believe, this does not make her a “hater” or a bigot or homophobic. She has, over the course of her life, been on friendly terms with gay people. She does not believe the legalization of same sex marriage will destroy her own marriage (she’s a widow) or anyone else’s. But she believes that Scripture is clear that marriage is meant to be between one man and one marriage, and she believes that our society is best served by not embarking on some historically unprecedented social experiment in redefining marriage.

    She has had interesting stories to tell of people being spat on, hit, vandalized, etc., etc. It’s part of her everyday reality.

    Yes, these may be extremists. But we shouldn’t brush off their viciousness. It impacts real people. My sister-in-law and her friends, the two neighborhood priests, the families who huddled in a church under siege, the people whose homes and churches are being vandalized — they are every bit as real and important as “the lesbian daughter of a friend, the missionary who struggles with same-sex attraction, the guy next door.” Let’s stop pretending they don’t exist, or that they don’t matter.

  110. Posted by Holly on November 16, 2008 at 9:03 am

    E,

    Niceno-Constantinopolitan sounds like an icecream! :) Now you can truly know my intellectual level. How humiliating for me! :)

    I have been thinking about all of this a lot. I was horrified when the Vision Forum crowd responded so hatefully to Sarah Palin. Oh. My. Goodness. It has been my extreme pleasure to throw the obligatory “Christmas Season Is Coming” Vision Forum magazines in the trash! Who cares if they have cute dolls, their true thoughts on how God views women has been revealed!

    I think that eschatology frames MUCH of how we will have viewed this election. If you are a patriarchalist and you believe that together with your children you will usher in the perfect kingdom – well then, you’ve got to tightly control your wife and your children – not just now but for generations to come. You’ve got to fully nail down those tracks and allow for no deviation. The kingdom that is to come depends upon you, not upon God. Women have to be home, training the children to think just like you do – it would never, never, never fit into your idea of the future to have a woman in national leadership. That would tear down everything you are working toward. (And to be fair – I think it is wonderful when mommies can be home with their children – to love them and share in their lives and give them security when they are little. I’m just not willing to put huge burdens and laws upon everyone else.) They will only vote for a person who is a Christian 100 percent along their line of thinking. Anyone else is not a Christian, and as such, is called heretical and weak and compromising.

    I thought it was equally horrifying to see the feminist’s response to Palin – which was hatred and demonization. I won’t put eschatological reasoning upon them, for I don’t know if there is unified thought there. But it was still enlightening. Camille Paglia is one of the few feminists who has written fairly about Palin. (Yes, I know she is a lesbian, and she does not agree with foisting an agenda. I enjoy reading her writings.)

    Let’s move it along to people like me – those who believe that there will be an actual Anti Christ and an end of time to this earth. (Didn’t the ancient Christians mostly believe in such things? Didn’t Darby really only add in the theory of a pre-trib rapture? Doesn’t the popularity of the Left Behind books indicate that people are interested? Doesn’t it bug you when people say they know with ONE HUNDRED PERCENT certainty how something is going to happen and that everyone else is wrong? I have my thoughts, but always leave open the possibility that I am wrong. :)

    When we see that it seems that society is becoming suicidal, when we see things happen that seem to fall in line with apocalyptic rumblings, well…it makes sense that we are going to be looking for key players. The human mind – mine included – automatically leaps to these huge mental pictures. We’ve read all of the historical accounts of atrocities and hard times – and I’ve got to tell you that it can cause some fear, even though fear does not come from God.

    What we believe about eschatology matters. I think it colors much of our lives, much of our thinking.

    I have not heard very many say that Obama is the anti-Christ – but that he will trend us toward some very scary things. I am seeing some direct fear-mongering among people who should really be praying instead. I am seeing self-protectionism rather than asking God what it is He would have us be doing. I don’t think they are wrong at the core, but I do think they are wrong in the application. I purposefully reject the fear and self-protectionism and simply seek to know what God has for me and my family to be doing at this time. Reaching out to his world? I’m very sure that’s a part of His plan.

  111. Posted by Holly on November 16, 2008 at 9:22 am

    I think that in our love and caring for individuals, we can’t ignore the agenda that is sweeping our nation and our public education. There is a real, radical, and written agenda that is geared to overtaking every aspect of our society.

    You know, I’ve never mentioned this before, but my sister was abandoned by her husband of 14 years because he wanted to carry out his homosexual desires. He left behind my nieces and nephew at the ages of 13, 12 and 9 – critical ages for children. These poor kids have grown up so devastated. It has affected their lives forever.

    But still, as a family, we have all come together and love this man. He comes to family events, we welcome him despite all of the past pain. My parents, who are ultra, ultra conservative – never fail to tell this man how much they love him. They hug him and remember his birthday – even though he destroyed their daughter’s life for a time, and affected their grandchildren’s lives forever. They do this because they (and I) see his humanity and his previous pain – and would never want to hurt him more. Jesus gives us this love.

    But to redefine marriage? It does affect us all. It affects what our children see, it affects what they are taught. It strips away what God says about the sacredness of marriage.

    In the context of hate crimes, there is this huge push to outlaw what anyone may say regarding homosexual marriage. If it is adopted into law, pastors will not be able to offer any homosexual who desires to change the hope of change. To say that change is possible is considered hateful. Parents will not be able to tell their children that God intends for marriage to be between one man and one woman. I am not saying this as a hateful, unloving religious fringe, I am saying this as a realist. I think that this is one issue I will unfortunately be able to come back to you in five or ten years and say, “see? I wasn’t over-reacting.”

    BTW – there were no arrests and no charges in the activists cases I mentioned above.

  112. Posted by Holly on November 16, 2008 at 9:27 am

    One more answer this morning, :)

    Do I think we have a culture of death?

    Yeah.

    I think that since the Fall, everything is on a downward spiral. Second Law of Thermodynamics.

    I think our natural default is set to death.

    I think that Christ redeems, though, and calls us to life!

  113. Posted by tonia on November 16, 2008 at 9:50 am

    Rebecca,

    I’m not brushing off the viciousness of these acts. i think they should be prosecuted. i’m only pointing out that fringe groups do a lot of wicked things. so-called christian groups have picketed the funerals of gay soldiers and claim they got what they deserve – those are hurtful realities for families just as the acts you describe are hurtful to your friends, neighbors and families.

    but i think it’s easy to separate ourselves from people by saying “they do this” and “they do that” and not recognizing that labels represent real people who are caught in the same sin-world as we are.

    i live near an extremely liberal and gay-friendly city. i’ve met all kinds of people from all sorts of backgrounds – but i’ve never personally encountered the kind of violence you are describing. most of us will not encounter it – and we need to be able to talk about these issues in terms of the people we connect with every day: the neighbor, the police officer, the mayor, the kids next door.

  114. Posted by tonia on November 16, 2008 at 9:54 am

    btw, Jesus had some experience with hateful mobs. He said, “Father forgive them for they know not what they do.”

    I think that might be a good place to begin in our interactions with others.

  115. Holly, Just a quick note to say that you are setting The Ideal Tone, woman, for how true “discussion-on-big-issues-we-don’t-always-agree-on” should go. It was an absolute PLEASURE to read your thoughts this morning. Thank you!!!!

    Rebecca,

    Hate crime is hate crime. That stuff sounds like hate crime to me. It would be very difficult to go through. I can only imagine.

    I remember going to Mardi Gras every year with a missions team. Some of the Christians who went there brought big signs saying stuff like, “God Hates Fags” and “You Will All Burn in Hell” and marched around shouting the slogans and waving their signs. I couldn’t believe them. It was hard not to just stare, and even more difficult not to run up to them and shake them.

    We had come down with garbage bags full of fresh socks and McDonalds coupons and hand-written notes about what Jesus did (some of them written by “E” here—really good ones, the kind you actually WANTED to read, the kind that made you think and that started great discussions…and we got into a lot of those, too, as we passed out socks to the street punks…).

    I know that I wouldn’t want to get roped into being defined by the Christians who came with their “God Hates Fags” signs. I have a feeling that there are a lot of gay people who feel the same way about being lumped in with activist extremists.

    You said,
    Yes, those are extremists. Just like the Prop 8 activists on Twitter and blogs and here and there on the Internet who have spewed hatred and threats towards Christians and who have uttered blasphemies against my Savior. “

    Maybe this is where we are different? I would say that they were uttering blasphemies against *their* Savior.

    And ours. Ours who called us to love them as He did.

    Flesh and blood isn’t where the battle lies. (Hard to remember. I need to get a lot better at that).

  116. Holly:

    Most people know it as “The Nicene Creed” (and in the West they include the much-later-added Latin filioque (= “and the Son”) in the initial phrase about the procession of the Holy Spirit). The Nicene Creed was written in 325 at the First Council of Nicea, and said very little about the Holy Spirit, simply “And [we believe in] the Holy Spirit.” This and other parts were expanded at the First Council of Constantinople in 381. Hence it’s more properly referred to as The Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed.

    Orthodox Christians recite it at every Divine Liturgy. Roman Catholics, I believe, as well as other creedal liturgical Christians, recite the so-called Apostles’ Creed.

  117. Posted by Scott M on November 16, 2008 at 12:03 pm

    Did Darby just add the rapture? No. The entire framework of ‘dispensations’ within which he embedded his rapture was an innovation. I’m not big on discussing eschatology. There are many other things I would rather talk about. In that, I echo much that is often repeated in the voices of the church. However, to a certain degree eschatology does matter. And the sort of eschatology contained within the Left Behind framework is toxic. It leads to a dualistic perspective of a world becoming ever more evil and destructive, standing against God with some small remnant of people he has called out, and eventually spiraling into utter destruction until God finally tosses it all out (again, except for the small remnant of faithful human beings) in fire and utter destruction and starts over with something new. In essence, this is all the bad first draft, and after it’s burned up, God will do it right.

    At its core, this eschatology is a denial of the Resurrection.

    Read Ephesians. Read Colossians. Read Romans (especially Romans 8). Read Hebrews. All creation changed when Jesus came out of the tomb. Yes, there will be some indescribable act of future new creation. But all creation (Col. 1:20 I think without checking first – near there anyway) already knows the good news that Jesus has come out of the tomb. It is no longer in the nature of a human being to die. Jesus broke the bondage of Hades, which is the bondage of death.

    Further, this eschatology leads Christians to withdraw from their surrounding culture, cocoon themselves away, and stand in direct (and often angry) confrontation with their culture. This is not the Christian way. Since I found myself drawn to Jesus, I’ve turned my love of history to understanding how Christianity has moved and shaped and changed cultures. This isn’t the way. Sure, especially when they have held the reins of power, there has been a lot of horrible things done by Christians. But they have always been confronted, often at great price, by other Christians, just as the pagan authorities were confronted.

    There have been many antichrists who have set themselves over against the true Christ. Nero (and other Roman emperors) were antichrist. A good case could be made for giving Hitler that title. Many more. The mark on the forehead or hand is pretty clearly either a reference or a prophesy (not sure of the order of the practice and the text) of the practice that developed of requiring those entering the Roman market to offer incense to the Emperor and receive the mark. Without that mark you could neither buy nor sell. A lot of the apocalyptic imagery in Revelation is beyond me, but some of the bits — like the above — are pretty clear. And I have a pretty decent handle on the end. ;)

    As far as the whole discussion on ‘gay activists’ and the rest goes (which I’ve mostly stayed out of and intend to stay out of), my early post on the command to love especially holds here. Frankly, much of the evangelical community has said and done so much to harm those individuals as a group that it is now hard for us to speak with any credibility. We have much ground to recover. We have done much that is evil. And before we can even begin to heal ourselves or others, we must stop ‘othering’ people with groups or stereotypes separate from ourselves. We are all eikons of God and all loved by Christ. It is not us and them. If we are followers of Jesus of Nazareth, there is only ‘us’.

    And a true human being does not return insult for injury, does not seek revenge, does not seek to dominate. A true human being prays for those who seek to harm him, returns good for evil, and does to others what he would have done to him.

    I have that from an authority I’m learning to trust.

  118. Posted by tonia on November 16, 2008 at 1:55 pm

    scott,

    i’m really enjoying your comments here. thanks for sharing your experiences and understanding.

  119. Posted by debrabaker on November 16, 2008 at 2:00 pm

    I’m with Molly on this one but I support gay marriage. Everyone deserves equal rights whether we agree with them or not.

    And someone mentioned the fellow, Fred Phelps, the soldiers whose funerals he’s picketing are not gay men, they are straight men and I serioussly doubt anyone here has blogged against the man besides me (I hope I’m wrong.)

    I don’t condone hate or violence, but people have had their rights taken away; historically bullied people. I don’t expect gays to give up the gains they have made any more than I expect to have my right to vote taken away or any other civil right for that matter.

  120. Genesis 1 puts “marriage” in the context of childbearing – i.e., Elohim’s blessing to “be fruitful and multiply.”

    In Genesis 2, YHWH Elohim puts “marriage” in the context of:
    a) completion – i.e., a helper “corresponding to him” (or as some would translate: “according to the front of him,” a possible reference to a “fit” for The Adam’s genitalia – which is maybe why the animals didn’t work), and
    b) companionship (”it is not good for The Adam to be alone”).

    There does seem to be a commonality between the two creation accounts of male-female sex involved. I.e., in Genesis 2 the creation of male and female is not just for companionship, but is for a relationship that has the proper “fit.”

    Thus I think Jewish and Christian (and I guess Muslim, too) religions that ascribe authority to the Torah are hard-pressed, I think, to find a basis for same-sex “marriage” as compatible with God’s plan.

  121. Posted by Holly on November 16, 2008 at 6:06 pm

    Yeah, well…um…

    not sure where to go here, Scott. :)

    Even though I don’t think that the Left Behind books are a script that we must follow…and even though I thought they were kind of silly books…I still wonder what will happen? I don’t pretend to know it all. I’m very willing to say that “I don’t know,” and that I just want to be ready and trust in Him no matter what.

    You know, God did destroy the world before…remember Noah? He threatened throughout scripture to destroy several groups of people, then relented due to repentance and due to the prayers of those who had hearts that were turned toward Him. I know that’s not popular – but it’s in the Book.

    We obviously disagree on some pretty big things – but that is okay with me!

    Peace, brother. Believe me when I say that I hope you are correct! :)

    E, thanks. :) I appreciate you taking the time to explain. I do know the Nicene Creed. I just have too many teenagers living with me (3) and we get a little silly around here. :)

  122. Posted by Left Right Out on November 16, 2008 at 6:19 pm

    Just to chime in that I’m a Christian lesbian who dislikes ACT UP and their style of protest, and I’m following the comments here with interest. I think perhaps ACT UP can be put in better contexts if you look at the AIDS crisis as a whole, particularly as described in “And the Band Played On” by Randy Shilts and see how politcally impotent HIV-positive men (who were overwhelmingly the first victims of the crisis) felt. If there’s a good-cop/bad-cop scenario playing out, ACT UP would be the bad cop, trying to get things done and isolating people along the way.

    Holly I can’t speak to your BIL’s situation. But I can tell you that before I came out (at 21) I walked around for years with the refrain in my head “I’m a liar, I’m a liar” — even though I never told an outright lie. I’m a truthful person and I was suffocating in my own body and brain. I didn’t even want to have a relationship with anyone at the time, I just wanted not to be deceitful. When I finally told my mom, it felt like I could breathe again. I think (and this is just my opinion, again I don’t know your BIL) that for many gay people in straight marriages, it might be something like that, with the added agony of causing pain to others they love.

    Your family sounds like loving and gracious people. I honour your parents for what they have done and pray for peace for your sister.

  123. Posted by Julie G in Ohio on November 16, 2008 at 7:54 pm

    Another excellent post, Molly. Keep telling it like it is, whether the “ostriches” want to hear it or not.

    – from another former culture warrior who gave it up 3 years ago.

  124. Left Right Out,

    I was thinking about that today…how the feeling of impotence causes people to act in desperation. You see it over and over in the world where poverty, race, oppression bear down on people until they explode.

    I keep thinking of Jesus coming down here to be in the middle of all this pain with us and to know it in the way we know it ….what grace that is: to be *known.*

    You’ve given me a way to pray for those who are protesting.

    Thanks for sharing your insight.

  125. Posted by Left Right Out on November 16, 2008 at 9:27 pm

    Those who might be interested in more perspectives on Left Behind should try Slacktivist’s analysis at http://tinyurl.com/6nsprk — he doesn’t really go into things such as “is LaHaye’s timeline correct or should event A happen before event B” but he digs deep into the theology, the writing, and the attitudes portrayed.

    There’s a *lot* of writing there as he analyzes page by page, however I think it would be worth it just to read bits of his stuff.

  126. I never saw any of the Left Behind movies, but I did read the first book, only to see what it was like. It … was … probably the worst-written, most contrived piece of offal I’ve read. It was a major struggle to get through it. (FYI, I’m not a pretrib rapture premillennial dispensationalist, but I was willing to suspend my belief and accept the eschatology for the sake of the fiction in front of me.)

    I’ve heard that the movies are truly bad. On the other hand, the ’70s films A Thief In the Night, A Distant Thunder, Image of the Beast and The Prodigal Planet, while based on the same Rapture eschatology, are actually pretty entertaining, and the acting is decent, too. (I found the DVD 4-pack at a used bookstore for $15. One of them appears to be mastered from a VHS tape, though – I think it’s the 3rd or 4th one, i.e., Image or Prodigal – the rest are decent, though there’s still the typical dirt and scratches of films that haven’t undergone frame-by-frame cleanups and restorations.)

  127. E,

    I was forced to watch those movies as a kid (around 4th grade, I think, in the baptist school.) I can’t speak to their quality for adults, but I know they scared me to death and messed up my theology for quite awhile. :)

    Needless to say, my own kids won’t be watching those! Yikes.

  128. Posted by Scott M on November 17, 2008 at 7:22 am

    Yeah, the first book was pretty horrible. But it only took an hour or two to read, and I was interested in trying to understand the way the perspective works out in practice. I find fiction, especially when it’s pretty popular, sometimes works better for that purpose than other ways of approaching and getting inside. From the melange of spiritual exposure and experience that shaped my formative years, I had adopted by young adulthood a more or less westernized version of the Hindu perspective on the nature or reality. That is radically different from anything in the whole spectrum of Christian perspective, so I was largely trying to grasp how to live within it. This was the predominant one among those amidst whom I had converted, so it was really the first one I ‘tried on’.

    So I persisted. The second book is really not any better and may be even worse. It almost lacks plot structure and just suddenly ends with an event that would perhaps evoke emotion if the two books had managed to get you to care about the characters and if the progression of events had had some groundwork for them laid. But it’s also a quick read.

    But I still couldn’t see, even dimly, through this lens. And that’s essential if you’re going to try believing something. So I kept reading. From bits and pieces that I’ve gathered, I think Jerry Jenkins was the primary writer while Lahaye provided theology. And either they got a new (and better) editor or Jenkins developed as a writer. The third book was much better written (from the perspective of plot and character) than the first two. And there was some steady progression from there. I don’t mean that they became great literary works or even great light fiction. But they did become fun little fantasy novels to read. If I recall, somewhere around the seventh or eighth, they even became pretty good – if a bit preachy or draggy in spots. (Both of those problems remained through the end of the series.)

    I think most people who criticize them as outright awful writing were never able to get past the first and second books. I don’t blame them for that. They were really bad and almost unreadable at times. But when I say I enjoyed reading the series, I have in mind the above progression. They started really, really bad and improved, with the most significant single leap of improvement coming between the second and third books. (I really do think they got a much better editor at that point. That would explain a lot.)

    Anyway, somewhere along the way I was finally able to place myself into that belief and begin to see a little through its lens. And as with anything I believe, it faced the whirlwind of deconstruction which seems to be simply part of who I am.

    (Sometimes as I read what people write or listen to what they say, I think one of the markers between those more shaped by modern forces and those more shaped by postmodern forces lies in this thing labeled ‘deconstruction’. I perceive that some consider it something that you ‘do’. Perhaps for one specific thing. Or for a specific period of time. And then you stop doing it. Others (or at least me) experience deconstruction as part of their interaction with life. ‘Things fall apart. The center cannot hold.’ It’s not something you turn on or off. It’s not something you consciously do. It just is. Whether you want it or not.)

    Anyway, as I looked at reality through this lens, however dimly, I began to see how it played out. Pieces fell away quickly. But the clincher for me came when I discerned that this perspective led my wife and younger son to view the prospect of the return of our Lord with fear. They became anxious. That is one of the natural products of this perspective. It deconstructs to a will to power through fear. And that is utterly foreign to anything I could find in Holy Scripture. Jesus brings peace (and shalom is a bigger concept than anything we try to fit in that word) and rest. Faith in Jesus, at least the one I’ve been coming to know over these years, should never rest on fear and trepidation. That process left little in this perspective for me to continue believing. It didn’t turn to dust so much as it just vanished in the wind.

    I appreciated Molly’s words about spouses. Even two decades later, I’m not entirely sure why my wife loved and married me, though I remain grateful to the core of my being that she did and does. We are very different people, shaped in very different ways, with different thoughts, opinions, and ways of reacting to the world around us. We do not always even understand each other. I can see that to some degree my wife is still gripped by the particular fear this eschatology engenders, though she is no more native to it than I am. That bothers me, but there seems to be little I can do. While I do now understand this perspective to some degree, I don’t understand why it ever sticks. I don’t think there was ever any chance I could have believed it for very long.

    I did watch the first movie. It wasn’t horrible. They certainly had capable screenwriters to turn it into something better than the book. I would rate it as roughly the quality of a mediocre made for TV (think Lifetime, SciFi, or network channel, not the premium channels with production money) movie.

  129. I did watch the first [Left Behind] movie. It wasn’t horrible. They certainly had capable screenwriters to turn it into something better than the book. I would rate it as roughly the quality of a mediocre made for TV (think Lifetime, SciFi, or network channel, not the premium channels with production money) movie.

    I would rate A Thief in the Night and A Distant Thunder higher than that, though they are obviously low-budget amateur films. Maybe it’s the sincerity of the actors. E.g., Patty (the main character in films 1 & 2) was just saved – serendipitously and separately from her fiance and unbeknowndst to each other – before making the movie, IIRC from her interview in the special features of the Distant Thunder disc.

    For some reason, only A Distant Thunder (movie #2) is available from Netflix – the other 3 can be “saved” (i.e., no idea when the DVD will be available).

    Tonia: check them out again, maybe sans kids. :^)

  130. Posted by Scott M on November 17, 2008 at 8:09 am

    I’ve been mulling the question about truth I was asked, specifically ‘objective truth’. I still don’t really understand the question, but a number of thoughts have welled up around it. Since this comment thread has morphed into a meandering conversation, I’ll share.

    On the one hand, I have a number of scientists in my family, my father probably the chief influence on me among them. At one point in my teenage years, before the rush of events that became my life, I remember that I desired to be a theoretical mathematician myself. There is much in the beauty of the world of theoretical mathematics that inspires me. I deeply appreciate the tremendous inroads we have made in understanding and manipulating the world around us. But science is not some cold ‘objective’ discovery and construction of ‘facts’ and ‘truth’ as some seem to perceive. It moves in fits and burst and often with creative insight. It uses many controls to attempt to reduce even unintentional manipulation of experiments and data collection (though the addition of the observer always alters them to some extent — the observer is always also a participant). It uses peer review to strive toward the goal of ensuring that the means of collecting data were valid and the interpretations of that data are not too skewed from the ways we have learned make the interpretations conform more to the way we can expect things to occur. For some reason, people tend to tie ’science’ to ‘objective’. The goal, of course, is to understand and express the nature of the sensible world around us. But the process by which we get there is hardly free from what most people would call ’subjective’ forces.

    I also have had a number of lawyers (and one judge) in my family. This is another form of seeking after a ‘truth’ labeled ‘objective’. It generally uses an adversarial process intended to peel back layers and reveal what ‘really’ happened. And yet the process itself is anything but ‘objective’. It is a whirlwind of opinion, innuendo, and ultimately up to the interpretation of judge and/or jury.

    When people talk about ‘objective truth’ they seem to have in mind some ‘truth’ that is independent of any person or any interpretation. They seem to be looking for a set of ‘facts’ or collection of data which is ‘true’ in and of itself. I have a difficult time wrapping my head around what it is they seek, so I have probably misstated some things. Nevertheless, it seems to be something like that.

    And so my reference to Pilate was no accident. When he asked, ‘What is truth?’, he already had an answer. Truth was found at the end of a Roman spear and Roman sword. Truth was carried and imposed and supported by Roman armies. And thus Jesus ultimately answers his truth claim with the response that Pilate has no power beyond that which has been given him by God. Implicit in that is the thought (developed later in the NT by Paul, Peter, and others) that whether he knows it or not he is accountable for the way he uses that power.

    Jesus’ description of truth is vastly different from the modern idea of ‘objective truth’, as best I understand it. He says, ‘I am the way, the truth, and the life.’ Jesus is truth. Think on that. It means that truth is not something enforced by a will to power. Truth is not some existential experience a person individually finds. Truth is a person, thus truth is intimately personal. We know truth by and through knowing Jesus. As we grow in communion with God and (since Jesus’ body has an NT description) communion with others, we grow closer to truth.

  131. (I am really enjoying reading through these thoughts)…

  132. Posted by Jenn on November 17, 2008 at 5:57 pm

    This is one of the most fascinating comment trails to follow and I’ve enjoyed it thoroughly. :)

    I was raised in a very evangelical, pre trib kind of church. I listened the “Thief in the Night” at the age of 12 and feared the rapture for years afterwards. Could someone share some books or websites that they found helpful in shedding this mindset? It never really sat right for me but I didn’t know what else to believe as this was Gospel, right? ;)

  133. http://menandwomenleaderstogether.blogspot.com/2008/11/being-both-biblical-and-egalitarian.html

    SUPER interesting (may seem slow at first, but keep reading). This is the blog of one of the co-editors of “Biblical Equality, Complementary without Hierarchy,” a large manual, of sorts, refuting and responding to CBMW’s “Biblical Manhood and Womanhood” manual.

    She writes in this post about why she didn’t not and could not vote for Obama, and why that has everything to do with her belief in Biblical equality between men and women.

    (Hat tip to “gem” at the Complegalitarian blog, who put this in the comments box in one of the posts…)

  134. Jenn, a book I just finished (and thoroughly enjoyed) on many of the ideas that Scott M has mentioned (the kingdom of God, resurrection and new creation) is Surprised By Hope by N.T. Wright.

  135. I was, too, Jenn, and know what you mean.

    I think the thing that helped me the most, oddly, was the fact that two of my good friends became “preterist” and started saying that dispensationalism was a new doctrine on the scene, that Jesus was NOT coming back, etc. I was worried that they’d gotten into a cult of some sort, and so started doing a LOT of research in order to show them a huge big list of “proofs” that dispensationalism was above reproach and that they were dead wrong.

    In doing so, I started really researching the Left Behind series and became more and more upset as I did so…and as I read preterist and partial-preterist material (like RC Sproul’s book that I can’t remember the title of, and some other book that I can’t remember the title of, except that it had “Left Behind” in it somewhere, because it was a critique on what was wrong with the Left Behind series, etc) and digging around in the Scriptures seeing if they “proved” one side or another…

    By the time I was done, I wasn’t convinced of the preterist claims, but my dispensationalism had been, er, dispensationalized into vapor and smoke.

    An interesting article, speaking both positively and negatively about the Left Behind series:
    http://www.ambs.edu/LJohns/Leftbehind.htm
    The beginning of the article starts out VERY favorably, so I was surprised at a lot of what the end of the article said, but found myself nodding wholeheartedly, like on these three points:

    Although Christians in this series occasionally lament the “necessity” of killing, they successfully deal with such pangs of conscience with the recognition that, “Hey, this is war.” That makes all killing, cheating, and lying (which Christians do regularly in this series) permissible (4:359; 5:331, 348; 6:30, 46, 64; 7:90, 166; 9:185, 223). The Antichrist is the only character in this series who advocates gun control (6:263). While the Antichrist may be a pacifist, a born-again Christian can openly wish for the privilege of being “God’s hit man” (5:100)! Indeed, Rayford, the leader of the born-again Tribulation Force, longs to “quit playing and get to war” (5:20)!

    The Christians who are the key players in this Tribulation Force for God are mostly men. Women have a role, but it is clearly subordinate to that of the men. Furthermore, these men often act like overgrown schoolboys with bad attitudes. They love making fun of their defeated foes. They are smart-alecky instead of exhibiting the fruit of the Spirit. They love their toys, whether the latest, most powerful computers, or their Humvees, or their Range Rovers, or their high-tech satellite phones, or whatever. The Tribulation Force must have the latest, most nifty gadgets and toys, regardless of the cost. This is Christian consumerism at its best … or worst! Furthermore, the Christians in this series develop an ingenious plan to develop a global black market network so that when it no longer becomes possible to buy and sell, since the mark of the beast is required, Christians will still be able to buy and sell on the black market, and thus maintain their devotion to the American consumerist lifestyle (5:335). This sounds like the immature testosterone poisoning of the planet—all in the name of Christ.

    At the end of the day, this series is ultimately a rejection of the good news of Jesus Christ. I say this because it rejects the way of the cross and Jesus’ call to obedient discipleship and a new way of life. It celebrates the human will to power, putting Evangelical Christians in the heroic role of God’s Green Berets. In this story, premillennialist dispensationalism meets American survivalism. This is a story about so-called Christian men who never really grew up, who still love to play with toys and dominate others, and whose passions are still largely unredeemed. Love of enemies is treated as a misguided strategy associated not with the gospel, but with the Antichrist. Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins have the right to offer any kind of interpretation of Christianity and of the end times that they wish. Ultimately, it is not their interpretation of the end times that troubles me so much as their interpretation of Christianity. It is devoid of any real theology, or substantial Christology, or any ethics that are recognizably Christian. This is a vision of unredeemed Christianity.”

  136. Ooh, Cristi, that book is on my “wanna-get-it” list. I have really appreciated everything of his that I’ve read, thus far…

  137. Posted by Liesl on November 17, 2008 at 8:03 pm

    Interesting discussions. Molly, I loved the link about biblical equality. That lady couldn’t have said my thoughts better about abortion being a judgement of character of how someone values life and how all other things (caring for the poor, ill, etc.) are a matter of strategy. Amen! That’s a prime reason I voted against Obama.

    There’s been a lot of talk going on about the homosexual agenda and being gay. I don’t believe having gay tendencies is a sin. It’s the act of homosexuality that is a sin. Same as fornicaiton, adultery, lying, theft, etc. But it’s still a lifestyle choice to continually live in sin. I love what Holly has said that yes we treat the people with love, but we can’t let them force their agenda on us. And unfortunatley that is what alot of them want to do. We don’t force people to believe/follow Christ. Preaching against sin is not not loving someone. Jesus loved the sinners but he always rebuked them for their sins. It’s the hate crimes legislation that I find troubling. A crime should be a crime, regardless of motive and freedom of speech (freedom to believe something is a sin) should be upheld as freedom of speech.

    On an interesting note, my cousin is gay and she voted McCain because she says she’s American first and then gay. She’s concerned about national security and abortion and the economy.

  138. I loved, loved, loved this latest book of N.T. Wright’s. Definitely worth reading. One of my biggest problems growing up with a rapture/tribulation theology was that everyone just seemed to overlook all of Jesus’ “Kingdom of God” talk. So far, N.T. Wright is the only one I’ve seen who really talks about it in detail without putting it into a transcendent/spiritual-only sort-of way and also has a valid historical theology for all of the other metaphors as well.

  139. The Last Days According to Jesus, by R. C. Sproul, IIRC (I could confirm with Amazon.com).

    The classic work on Preterism is The Parousia by J. K. (?) Russell, available in print form or for free on the Web at various sites.

    Hank Hanegraaf (the Bible Answer Man on the radio) is now a partial Preterist and wrote a couple novels based on that idea. Steve Gregg wrote Revelation: Four Views, in which he sets a commentary of each view of Revelation side-by-side along with the text. Though he doesn’t give his view, one can deduce from the intro that he was raised on and believes pre-trib pre-mill dispensationalism. Writing the book convinced him of the validity of all the views. He is now a Preterist or partial Preterist, and I heard his discussion with Hank H. a couple years ago or so.

  140. That article you posted above about the Left Behind Series exactly mirrors my thoughts about the books. Boys with their toys, fighting the big, bad, two dimensional meanies. The books actually turned me more off the dispensational type thinking. I read them years ago, but clearly remember thinking that the view of women was interesting, and the ‘fighting’ was priamrily physical. “Not by might, not by power, but by my spirit, says the Lord”. “Your weapons will not be of flesh and blood…” etc. It was all about how clever and strong they could be, but in their own strength. I wondered why they never seemed to really get down and pray and cry out to the Lord – it was all about fighting in their own strength and power.

    My question is, why would God raise up the Christians in the ‘last days’, grow them, mould them into His image, cause them to become an army of prayer warriors, die to self and so on, then whip them up into heaven and leave a bunch of people to finish things off? I just don’t see the logic in that, let alone see it in scripture. I see a restoration of the church taking place, the kingdom coming to earth as it is in heaven.

  141. i second the NT Wright recommendation. “Surprised By Hope” – which i haven’t quite finished yet – is really good and gave me a whole new perspective on what lies ahead of us: hope-filled and joyous.

    my solution to getting rid of all the rapture fears, as someone asked earlier, is to get to know the Lord better. i have never wanted to study more on that topic – too afraid to dig into those questions – but as i have grown in my walk with Christ, i have begun to fear less and realize that God is GOOD and whatever lies ahead of me will be part of His plan.

  142. I’ve linked this here before, in other posts, but a humorous parable of “the Rapture” doctrine is “A Night With The Family” viewable here:

    http://www.preteristarchive.com/PartialPreterism/The_Anti-Rapture_Page/famnight.htm

    or by continuing to read my comments:

    A Night With The Family
    Taken from “Up, Up and Away”…by R.B. Yerby, 1976

    A Humorous Look at a Serious Subject

    The account of my efforts to straighten out my family regarding events at the end of time is very interesting. It all happened one evening when we were sitting around the living room, my wife, my four children and I. For some time I had been concerned about their unwillingness to devote the majority of their time to a study of end-time doctrines.

    “What do you think is going to happen at the end of time?” I casually asked one of my daughters.

    “I think the Lord is coming back to earth to judge the quick and the dead, Daddy,” she replied, barely looking up from her sewing.

    “Yes, yes,” I replied impatiently, “but what about the details?”

    “Well, the angels said He’d come again in the same manner in which He left, and since he went from earth to heaven at that time, I believe He’s coming from heaven to earth this time.”

    “Oh, now I see where you’re confused,” I said, with a sigh of relief. “That’s at his second coming. I’m referring to his one-and-a-half coming.”

    “His what?” asked my wife.

    “You know, I said, with a touch of irritation. “When He comes at the Secret Rapture. This book I’m reading says only the Christians know about that coming of the Lord. It’s all in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and 17.”

    “That 16th verse says He’ll come with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God,” my wife said with a yawn. “How could an event that noisy be kept a secret?”

    “It’s because it all happens so fast,” I protested. “This book quotes 1 Corinthians 15:52 which says it happens in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. After that there’s a seven-year period called the Great Tribulation when the people who are left on the earth have to go through all those horrible things in Revelation 6 through 19.”

    “I thought you said all those horrible things happen after the last trumpet, Daddy,” my second daughter said.

    “That’s right, that’s right,” I said excitedly,

    “But seven more trumpets sound during those chapters in Revelation that you say take place after the last trumpet,” she replied with a puzzled look.

    “Okay, I said, “let’s forget about the trumpets and whether it’s a secret or not. That’s probably too deep for you. Let me show you how the Rapture works. There are going to be two in a bed, or grinding together, or in the field, and the one will be taken and the other will be left. The one that’s taken goes to be with the Lord and the other is left to go through the seven years.”

    “I read about that in Luke 17:34-36,” my wife said, “but a few verses before that it said it would be the same as when Noah entered the ark and when Lot left Sodom.”

    “That’s it,” I said. “Noah and Lot were taken out and the others remained.”

    “Yes, dear,” she replied, “but if it’s going to be like it was then, Luke says those that remained were all destroyed, not consigned to seven years of hardship.”

    “You have the same problem with 1 Thessalonians 4, Daddy,” my third daughter said. “You said the taking away of the church is described in verses 16 and 17 but, as I recall, just a few verses later it says sudden destruction comes upon those who are left. And sudden destruction sounds a lot different to me than seven years of suffering.”

    “I never could see where it says in which direction the believers go with the Lord after meeting Him in the air,” my wife said. “To me it’s always been the same as if an important person were coming to visit our city and the mayor and other officials met him at the airport to escort him downtown. It looks to me as if the Christians are meeting the Lord to escort Him back to earth.”

    A few moments of silence passed while I regrouped. Then I returned to the attack.

    “What about the four resurrections that are coming?” I said with a confident smile.

    The five members of my family exchanged anxious glances.

    “Now get this,” I said, leaning forward in my chair. “This is a very important doctrine. You’ve got to be right an the resurrections or you’re nowhere. Now here’s the way it’s going to be, right out of the books I’ve read. First, when Christ comes for the church there’s the resurrection of all the believers of history—right?”

    They nodded in tentative agreement.

    “Then, seven years later there’s the resurrection of those new believers, who were somehow converted after the church and the Holy Spirit were gone, and who were killed during the Great Tribulation. You’ve got to get them out of the ground to enjoy the Millennium that follows—right?”

    This time there were no nods of agreement, and I realized with some disappointment that it was getting too deep again for their shallow spiritual understanding. But I plunged on; they had to learn sound doctrine.

    “Next is the third resurrection, this time of those mortals, believers, who die on earth during the Millennium. You’ve got to get them out of the ground to enjoy eternity—right?” Again, only hopeless confusion on their faces.

    “And finally,” I said in triumph, “the fourth resurrection is necessary to resurrect all the wicked of all time for condemnation.

    I sat back to relish their enlightenment. I knew I had stuck to just what the books said, and that it would bear fruit.

    “I think there are only two resurrections, Daddy,” one of my daughters said cautiously. “First, the spiritual resurrection or new birth that makes us alive in Christ after being dead in sin, like it says in Romans 6:13 and the first five verses of Ephesians 2, and second, the general resurrection at the end of time when all the saved and unsaved who ever lived will be raised together at the same time.”

    “That’s true, dear,” my wife added. “John 5:24-29 speaks of one resurrection which even 1,900 years ago was a present one, when some of those who are spiritually dead hear the voice of the Son of God and receive eternal life, and then of another resurrection, sometime in the future, when all shall hear His voice and come forth, some to life and some to condemnation.”

    “Yes, Daddy,” another irritating voice said. “in John 11:24 Martha told Jesus she knew her brother would rise in the resurrection at the last day but you said he’d rise at the Rapture which you say takes place 1,007 years before the last day.”

    “I knew you people wouldn’t be able to understand these things!” I said with great agitation. “How can you refute the clear statements of all the books and commentaries I’ve read? Listen, when I became a Christian I believed what people told me, and the books they gave me, and I wasn’t argumentative like you are.”

    There was silence about the space of half a minute. Then my little boy apprehensively raised his hand and I graciously encouraged him to speak.

    “Did you say there were mortals living on earth during the Millennium, sir?” he asked hesitantly.

    “Yes, my boy,” I said tenderly. “Let me tell you what the books say. At the start of the 1,000 years the unbelievers who survive the Great Tribulation are cast off the earth and the surviving believers inherit the Millennial Kingdom, and they live and prosper on a peaceful earth.”

    “And are they mortal people just like us, sir?”

    “Yes, my boy,” I said warmly, “just like us.”

    “But, Mom,” he said, “didn’t you tell me flesh and blood can’t inherit the kingdom of God?”

    “Yes, dear,” she replied. “I Corinthians 15:50.”

    I gnashed my teeth, ignoring repeated warnings from my dentist, and resolved to start again from the beginning.

    “Look,” I said, after my breathing returned to normal, “let’s get down to basics. You’ve got to understand that God has two people and you’ve got to keep them apart. That’s why the Church goes up in the Rapture, so that those Scriptures that apply only to the Jews, like almost all of Revelation after Chapter 5, can work themselves out. God started out working with the Jews and His Son came to sit on old King David’s throne in Jerusalem but when the Jews surprised God by rejecting Jesus, God had to change His plans and allow Jesus to be crucified. Then God set up the Church to fill in the gap between the first and second coming of Christ. At the second coming, Christ will finally sit on David’s throne.”

    “1 don’t understand about God having two different people,” one of my stubborn daughters said. “There is no difference between the Jew and the Greek, it says in Romans 10:12.”

    Another said, “There is no respect of persons with God, Romans 2:11.”

    The third added, “There is neither Jew nor Greek, Galatians 3:28.”

    When no similar insolence was forthcoming from my son I turned my gaze on him. He had been thinking hard, and finally he turned to his mother and asked, “Mom, what was that about the wall being broken down?”

    “That’s Ephesians 2:14-16, dear,” she said, smiling sweetly at him. “It tells how the Lord at Calvary broke down the former wall of partition between the Jew and the Gentile and made of the two one new man, one body.”

    “Well, isn’t Dad wrong then?” my only son asked.

    “Well, he has studied a lot of books and charts, dear,” she said. “The girls and I are only going by the Bible.”

    “Look,” I said impatiently, “if you don’t understand that, do you at least see that the Jews are God’s special people, a peculiar treasure to Him?”

    “I know that in Exodus 19:5,6 the Lord told the Israelites that if they obeyed and kept His covenant they would be a peculiar treasure to Him, and a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation,” my wife said.

    “Yes, yes,” I cut in, “that’s it!”

    “But I haven’t finished, dear,” she said. “I think they must have disobeyed and then God found a new people to replace them because Peter uses those same verses to describe everyone who has been converted to Christ.”

    “I never saw that,” I snarled.

    “It’s in 1 Peter 2:9, dear,” she said.

    I gnashed my teeth some more, audibly this time. When the noise died down, one of my daughters said she thought the church had succeeded to the promises originally made to the Jews.

    “Listen, kid,” I snapped, “those promises were made to Abraham and his descendants through his son Isaac and through Isaac’s son Israel.”

    “That’s clear from Genesis 12:7 and 22:18, Daddy, but viewed in the light of the New Testament it seems that we—all who are Christ’s through the new birth—are in fact the descendants of Abraham.”

    Thinking that I was rising from my chair to strike the child, my wife threw herself between us. When she saw that I only intended to pace the floor, she sat down again and asked her daughter to continue.

    “Well, Mom, as you pointed out to us long ago, the third chapter of Galatians makes it all very clear. Verse 7 says they which are of faith are the children of Abraham. Verse 16 explains that the seed of Abraham to whom the promises were made was Christ. Verse 27 says we who have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. And therefore verse 29 says that if we are Christ’s then we are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.”

    “I can quote scripture, too!” I shouted. “How about, children, provoke not thy father to wrath! That’s in there some place, too, you know!”

    “That’s Ephesians 6:4, dear,” my wife said gently, “but you’ve got it backwards. It says, fathers, provoke not your children to wrath.”

    “Well, how can I help it?” I exploded. “She takes one isolated passage of scripture and uses it to tell me I’m an Israelite!”

    “A spiritual Israelite, dear,” my wife said, watching with compassion my spastic ambulations across the living room floor. “But she didn’t really take an isolated passage. That one was about Abraham but you also mentioned Isaac and Israel. Well, Galatians 4:28,29 says that we who are born after the Spirit are, as Isaac was, the children of promise. And Romans 9:6-8 makes the same point, saying they are not all Israel which are of Israel.”

    “Any more?” I asked sarcastically.

    “Well, yes, she replied. “Romans 2:28,29 says that a person is not a Jew who is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision which is outward In the flesh, but he is a Jew which is one inwardly and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit. Oh, and Philippians 3:3 says we, that is, all the saints in Christ Jesus, are the circumcision, who worship God in the spirit and rejoice in Christ Jesus and have no confidence in the flesh.”

    “Well, if you’re going to favor all those New Testament scriptures above the Old Testament you certainly won’t reach the conclusions my books reach,” I said, again striving for sarcasm. Somehow my remark didn’t seem to make the point I intended so I hurried on.

    “Can you at least see that Jesus came to set up a restored Jewish Kingdom but that His rejection by the Jews made it necessary to postpone His kingdom for a couple thousand years?”

    One of my daughters immediately said that John 6:15 shows that when Jesus saw that the people wanted to make Him a natural king He departed from them and went off to be alone in the mountains. Another said that if Jesus had sought such an earthly kingdom in Israel He would have been technically guilty of the accusation brought against Him by the high priest and rulers of the Jews, and His crucifixion would have been justified by law. The third added that Jesus himself said, “My kingdom is not of this world” (Jn. 18:36).

    My wife said my statement implied that Christ didn’t complete the task that was given Him at His first coming while in fact John 4:34 and 17:4 quoted Jesus as saying that He came to do His Father’s will and did it.

    “And Luke 24:25-27 says that the risen Lord told His disciples that the Old Testament prophets clearly foretold His suffering and crucifixion.”

    “Maybe,” I said, “but what about His kingdom? At some point that’s got to be set up and I don’t see it yet.”

    “Oh, Daddy,” one of my daughters said, “you know Luke 17:20,21 says the kingdom of God doesn’t come with observation, or visual evidence, but the kingdom of God is within you. It’s the Lord’s rule in the hearts of His people.”

    “You can’t see or enter it except by the new birth, it says in the third chapter of John,” another said. “Yes, Daddy, we’ve already been translated or transferred into the kingdom of God’s dear Son, according to Colossians 1:13,” the third added.

    “And Romans 14:17 says the kingdom of God isn’t physical things like meat and drink but is actually righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost,” my wife said.

    “A man’s enemies are those of his own house!” I shouted, and then a brilliant thought occurred to me. “Look,” I said, thumbing eagerly to Revelation 12:10, “here it shows exactly when the kingdom of God is going to be set up. Isn’t that something that’s going to happen at the start of the Millennium? See, it’s in the next chapter after the seventh trumpet sounds.”

    My wife turned to my proof text and smiled as she read it to herself. Then she read it aloud: “Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ, for the accuser of our brethren is cast down.”

    A chorus of giggles and shrieks came from the children. My wife shook her head at them tolerantly, and said, “What they’re trying to say is that all of those things took place at Calvary more than 1,900 years ago. In John 12:31 Jesus predicted that at His crucifixion Satan would be cast out, and in Colossians 2:15 Paul confirms that through the cross Christ triumphed over all His enemies and made a show of them openly.”

    “Why wouldn’t you think salvation and strength and the power of Christ came long ago, Daddy?” one of my youthful tormentors asked me. “We all know when salvation came, and we know where our strength comes from, and in Matthew 28:18 Jesus said all power, or authority, in heaven and earth had already been given to Him.”

    My young son twisted the knife. “If the other three have come, then I guess the kingdom has come, too, Dad.”

    “The kingdom couldn’t have come yet,” I raged, “because when it does come then finally we’re going to reign with Christ.”

    Again the children laughed. “Daddy, we’re already reigning with Him,” one of them said. “Romans 5:17 says that we who have received abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.”

    “That’s true, dear,” my wife said. “if you read Peter’s speech on the day of Pentecost, particularly Acts 2:30-33, it seems clear that Peter felt that Christ’s resurrection and ascension to the right hand of God fulfilled the promise that a descendant of David would occupy his throne.”

    “Let me see that,” I grumbled, picking up my Scofield Edition. “God had sworn …. of the fruit of his loins …. would raise up Christ to sit on his throne …. he, seeing this before, spoke of the resurrection of Christ …. this Jesus hath God raised up …. by the right hand of God exalted… .”

    As I scratched my head over those verses, my wife added: “And, of course, Ephesians 2:6 says God has already raised us up to sit with Christ in the heavenlies. So we’re already reigning—or should be—over every difficult problem or situation or circumstance.”

    “You’d better talk to him about 1 Corinthians 15, too, Mom,” one of the kids said.

    “What!” I exclaimed, mopping my brow. “I’ve already covered that. I told you that verse 52 says all the dead believers will be resurrected to meet Christ in the air along with all the living believers.”

    “Yes, dear, we know,” my wife said, “but the point is that verse 54 says that the resurrection described in verse 52 fulfills the saying of Isaiah 25:8 that death is swallowed up in victory.”

    “So what?” I thundered.

    “Well, don’t you see, dear? Verses 25 and 26 of chapter 15 say that Christ’s present reign must continue until He has put all His enemies under His feet, and the last enemy to be destroyed will be death. So, since verse 54 says His last enemy will be destroyed when the saints are resurrected, that means His reign ends then. At that time He delivers the kingdom up to the Father (verse 24) and the Son Himself becomes subject unto God in order that God may be all in all (verse 28). So if you’re going to reign with Christ, you’ve got to reign with Him now.”

    “But if His reign ends at the time He comes for the church that would mean there would be no 1,000-year reign later on the earth,” I said, with exasperation.

    “That’s true, dear,” she replied.

    I excused myself from my oppressors and, determined to rebuke and admonish them scripturally, took my Scofield Edition with its concordance into the next room. I found that Proverbs 19:13 took care of both my wife and my son (“A foolish son is the calamity of his father, and the contentions of a wife are a continual dropping”) but the only verse I could find about daughters was Proverbs 31:29 (“Many daughters have done virtuously, but thou excellest them all”). Obviously that wouldn’t do so, disappointed, I postponed my thoughts of revenge and returned to the living room.

    “Look,” I said as calmly as I could, “I believe most of your confusion occurred right at the beginning of our discussion. After explaining the Secret Rapture I should have told you about the Antichrist because during the seven years after the Rapture he’s going to do some incredible things.”

    “No, he’s not, dear,” my wife said quietly.

    “What do you mean?” I sputtered. “My books spell it all out. He’ll be a beast, and put marks on people, and they’ll have to worship him, and he’ll execute people, and …. and …. and….”

    “Now just relax, dear,” my wife said soothingly. “Some of the other ladies and I have looked into that situation and found out that the Antichrist won’t be around to do anything after Christ comes for his church.”

    “You can’t prove that!” I yelled, but I feared she could.

    “Well, dear,” she said calmly, “one of the ladies had an Interlinear Greek-English New Testament that shows each of the original Greek words and the English equivalent. The Greek word for the coming of the Lord for his church is parousia and that’s the word used in 1 Thessalonians 4:15. Then in 2 Thessalonians 2:8 this same word is used for the coming of the Lord, and in that verse it says the Lord will destroy the Antichrist with the brightness of his parousia. So when the Lord comes for the church, He simultaneously destroys the Antichrist.”

    “That’s ridiculous,” I said, but I was perspiring freely now. “Listen, if you don’t believe anything I’m telling you, suppose you tell me what you do believe.”

    “We believe that Jesus Christ is coming again, all the way to earth,” my wife said, “and that when He comes all the dead will be resurrected, and they and the living will be judged worthy either of an eternity in the presence of the Lord or an eternity of punishment. Satan will be eternally punished. The kingdom will be turned over by Christ to God the Father, and there will be a new, or probably renewed, heaven and earth. Every person will be as close to the Lord throughout eternity as he or she is in this life.”

    “You mean that’s it?” I said. “That’s the whole thing?”

    “Basically, yes,” she said.

    “But if that’s all there is to it,” I said, “people wouldn’t need all those books and charts to figure it out. Why, it’s so simple that even a child could understand it.”

    “Precisely,” said my wife.

    “Exactly,” chorused my daughters.

    “I understand it,” said my son.

    Later, our neighbors said the smoke from the pile of books and charts I burned in the back yard could be seen three blocks away.

  143. An emerging Christian woman who seems to have been hoping for Obama’s election:

    http://julieclawson.com/2008/11/11/what-is-our-dream/

    Last Tuesday night we sat on pins and needles awaiting the outcome of the election. The results and Obama’s speech in Grant Park were defining moments for our nation. I cried at hearing his words and for the first time in a long time dared to hope for our future….

    I haven’t read anything else on her blog, but she may be a writer/blogger you’ll want to read, Molls:

    http://faithinadress.blogspot.com/2007/05/why-i-gave-my-daughter-strong-name.html

  144. Wow! Look at all those comments! I didn’t vote for Obama, but I am loudly applauding this terriffic post!

  145. E, that article is priceless. I have to show that to my sister, she’ll adore it.

    Jenn, you said “Could someone share some books or websites that they found helpful in shedding this mindset?”

    I wish I could. The passage that booted me out of my panic was very short, and I look at it now and still can’t figure out why it had such an effect on me, but I’m grateful that it did.

    I suffered from panic attacks for over five years after reading those books and watching that blasted movie. My mother tried to help me, she looked for things and recommended things to read but in the end God was the only way I was getting out of that mess. Mum was in the middle of praying for me when God (at least, that’s my presumptuous belief, lol) directed me to Isaiah 44: 1-5. I read it out loud, and everything just . . . quit. For good. I was able to watch the news that night without so much as a flutter or twinge of apprehension, something I hadn’t been able to do for five years (and let me tell you, if I had started to read this post four years ago, before all of this stopped, I wouldn’t even have been able to get past the title before the panic set in).

    I talked to my sister about this last night, actually, about how we both suffered the same way after our exposure to the whole Left Behind phenomenon, with nobody taking the time to mention that oh, by the way, not the ENTIRE Christian church believes this y’know. Wish somebody had told us so at the time, cause we literally cried ourselves to sleep for a year. Claire still can’t stand to talk about it for very long.

  146. Posted by Jenn on November 18, 2008 at 12:47 pm

    Thank you so much for the book recommendations and verses as well. I started dabbling with research a few weeks ago on this topic as I didn’t even realize that not everyone who is a follower of Christ believes in pre trib stuff. The more I come across a different way of processing scripture, the more I feel like my whole spiritual foundation is crumbling, but in a really beautiful way. I’m not sure if that makes any sense to anyone but this has been my experience. I have grown up in such a culture of “fear”. I can totally resonate with you, Andrea, as anxiety has held a grip over me for many years. I can remember being a young adult and calling home to a usually busy house to not be able to get an answer. I would try cell phones or places of work and not be able to get a hold of whoever I was trying to reach and the panic of “rapture” would kick in. My biggest fear was whether or not I was good enough to get taken in the split second when it would all come to pass. This type of thinking permeated my entire life. Even up to about a year ago, I was constantly trying to achieve good enough, work hard enough, give enough and still feared missing something that would leave me here to suffer the end times. The saddest part of this thinking is that it was always about me.
    Sorry if I have taken this too far off track.

  147. Nothing is ever off track in the comments box here, Jenn! There is no off-topic when all topics are the topic. :lol:

    I can totally relate, btw, with the idea of a spiritual foundation crumbling, but in a beautiful way. That’s certainly how I would define what happened to me…and the meeting of God there was WORTH EVERY BIT of the rubble crashing. :)

  148. Posted by Holly on November 18, 2008 at 1:26 pm

    Heh, heh…YES, Molly – this is all so interesting to me! Thanks for hosting! Wow! :)

    Scott, thanks to you, too – I have been reading more, from different perspectives. I checked out some info on Darby – but it was an anti-Darby site so don’t know how much to believe. Anyway, I learned that you can be a “futurist” without ascribing to Darby’s specific dispensations. I DID find in the dusty old books evidence that the early church (prior to 300 AD) believed primarily that things would get worse and worse until Jesus returned. Who knows, though…different books just say different types of things.

    Seriously, don’t you all think this is kind of mind-blowing? It is to me, anyway…

    Depending on your eschatology – you would either think that Obama really could be a type of Messiah and could usher in a much better, peaceful, loving world OR you might think that he is a pre-cursor to the Anti-Christ and that horrible judgement is coming on the world because we have chosen him.

    Excuse my Christian swearing here, but, Holy Cow! :)

    No disrespect meant, everyone, for I am really interested to hear your views. They are surprising to me, but I am enjoying hearing what you believe!

    What you are saying sounds so nice, so good…but I still can’t see it. There’s so many scriptures that pop into my mind that seem to stand in contradiction to the concept that we will just keep getting better and better as people. What’s with that whole armor of God thing? Why would we need that, for example? Why be strong, why be courageous… Nah…I have no interest in argument or even line and verse type back and forth. I’m just interested in hearing your sides, so thank you. :)

  149. Posted by Holly on November 18, 2008 at 1:27 pm

    And Left Right Out, thank you for that kindness! I have always appreciated your additions to the conversations. I have remembered you over the last year in my prayers, as well! You are loved.

  150. “My biggest fear was whether or not I was good enough to get taken in the split second when it would all come to pass.”

    Claire and I talked about that last night too, actually. The thing is, that fear? I think it’s because we know that we aren’t good enough. Nobody is “good enough.” That’s the whole POINT of grace, isn’t it? That we just plain aren’t good enough, couldn’t BE good enough- it’s just not possible. But even though we aren’t, can’t be good enough, we’ve been ransomed because we are beloved, for no other reason than that it’s His choice to love us.

    Actually, Claire was the one who feared getting left. My first, deepest fear wasn’t that I would be left behind, it’s that I would be taken and my dogs would starve and suffer without me there, because of course in Left Behind they showed dogs looking and/or waiting for their missing masters. THAT was what sparked my first panic. It got to where I was begging God to leave me on earth so I could look after my animals. God dealt with that angle very quickly and graciously, actually, within a year of them starting (that wasn’t a verse, that was just a late night encounter with Him) but then the panic attacks found other inroads and… well I was a real wreck until summer ‘05.

    The very fact that Claire got through our whole conversation last night without a panic attack of her own was really a miracle in and of itself.

  151. Posted by Liesl on November 18, 2008 at 6:26 pm

    E – I loved your essay about your family discussion and “Left Behind”. I must say I’ve always believed the way your wife explained it. I don’t really follow the “end times” stuff and 1,000 years and such. I do know that the end of time will come and there will be signs (sort of). But that when Jesus comes back it is to destroy the world and gather his brothers and sisters. I don’t claim to understand it all, I’m just glad there’s not a pop quiz on Revelation to get into Heaven! Saved by Grace!

  152. Liesl:

    That was not my essay (but thanks for the compliment!). Nor was that my “wife.”

    The essay was written by someone else, and I find it provides a good chuckle, as well as causes you to think about these things if you’ve only been taught “one view” of the end times.

    And… I hate to disappoint you, but there IS a pop quiz.

    I’ll sell you the answer key for $1B U.S.

  153. Posted by Scott M on November 18, 2008 at 7:42 pm

    Holly, I don’t believe that things will keep getting better and better. That’s the extremely modern eschatology of ‘progress’. As I hope I said clearly, I also don’t think that somehow we can create the Kingdom. I’ve stressed again and again that there will be a veil lifted, that there will be an amazing act of new creation, but it will be a new creation that “makes all things new.” I also believe we experience and live in the middle of ongoing new creation and have since Jesus came out of that tomb. He who has eyes, let him see. I’m far, far too postmodern to ever buy the modern grand narrative of ‘progress’ and the naivete of the idea that we can somehow build the eschaton.

    Nevertheless, I always remember how Paul concludes his grand and glorious narrative on the Resurrection as he segues into other topics. He tells the Corinthians to keep working hard in the Lord for we know that our labor is in vain.

    It is a denial of the Resurrection of Jesus to hold that things will get steadily worse, that the Church has no power, that our labor in the Lord will simply be burned up and tossed away. It all matters, even if we don’t see how it will fit into new creation, how it will be part of the Kingdom. Our labor in the Lord is not in vain.

    I also don’t see either Messiah or AntiChrist (big A) in the ascension of any government leader of any nation or empire, ours included. I’m pleased at the racial hurdle that has been passed, though much remains still to be healed. I believe that, in measure, Obama has what it takes to be a good leader, and he may even become a great one. Time will tell. But all the rulers and powers of this world have been placed under the power and rule of Jesus of Nazareth. No exceptions. We are to be good citizens to the extent that we can and to the extent that the rulers conform to their true Lord. And where we can’t, if push comes to shove, we say no and accept the consequences. (Not that we face any actual danger or oppression here in the US. We don’t. At all. And are unlikely to.) But our confidence is and must always be in the one to whom all power in heaven and earth has been given.

    It also strikes me that another problem with the rather dualistic ‘Left Behind’ perspective is that it grants too much power to evil and to Satan. It makes the forces of evil out to be just somewhat less powerful than God. That’s crazy. The only self-existent one is God. Just like all of us and all creation, Satan and those who follow him continue to exist from moment to moment only because God does not begrudge existence to any of his creation. But it is a willful act of God to sustain everything. Evil is nothing but a shadow before God. It does not have the same sort of ‘reality’ that God has.

    I don’t reflect on it much because it is beyond what we should think upon. Mostly we must live opposed to Satan and to the evil he tries to sow. Yet I join with a few of the ancient fathers and some since when I wonder, from time to time, if God is not seeking and trying to save his wayward archangel as well.

  154. Posted by Left Right Out on November 19, 2008 at 11:19 am

    thanks Holly. It’s been a rough year and I know I wouldn’t have gotten through it except by grace and with prayer :0)

  155. Posted by DeeAnn on November 20, 2008 at 11:43 am

    I just wonder how many people who claim the name of Jesus believe what he said? I’m talking about the coming back part. Not in spirit but in the flesh. A 33 year old jewish man with passion in his heart! The part where he is king over the whole earth. Or pardon my vocabulary but how about modernizing it and saying dictator of the whole earth? Just wondering…

    What about the warning after warning to stay alert and discern the times. To get oil by sitting at His feet.

    Obama cant be the antichrist. He isn’t that clever. He isn’t popular enough either.

    What I do see are battle lines forming in our culture that are going to turn very bloody.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsRP4hA5ogk
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCLIkCJWSAI

    The relativists have ushered in their age of aquarius. They have our schools and they have an indoctrinated youth culture. And they have their blood sacrifices. They have organized pagan worship like no other culture could have dreamed of…

    A great awakening will come to America but at an awful cost.

  156. Posted by Scott M on November 21, 2008 at 5:21 am

    Jesus is already Lord (an imperial title) of heaven and earth. And that’s a basic problem of virtually every variation of that particular eschatology that I’ve encountered. You can’t read Paul without encountering that theme again and again and again. It’s part of what got early Christians into so much trouble. Further, Jesus says it himself bluntly and with no ambiguity. It’s right there at the end of Matthew’s account. “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me”. And then he ‘ascends’ into the ‘clouds’ to a throne. The language of ascension is one of an emperor or other great ruler taking their power. In Jewish apocalyptic imagery, ‘clouds’ (or smoke) are often used to describe the power of God.

    Yes, there will be a future unveiling. There will be a future act of indescribable new creation. There will come a time when all powers will be held accountable for the way they have exercised their power under their true (if often unacknowledged) Lord. Absolutely.

    But any eschatology that does not firmly acknowledge that Jesus is already the reigning King of all of heaven and earth is not a true lens. That lies at the center of everything else we say or about which we speculate.

  157. Posted by Headless Unicorn Guy on November 21, 2008 at 11:32 am

    But then the End Time Prophecy fanboys can’t join the Trib Force and Be Important.

    Don’t forget one definition of a fanatic, Scott:

    Someone who does what God would want done if God only KNEW what was REALLY going on.”

  158. Posted by Scott M on November 24, 2008 at 3:27 pm

    Today while killing a rose bush my wife hated, I listened to an N.T. Wright sermon that says, I think, all (or at least most) I would wanted to say about eschatology and does so using one of my favorite texts in the NT. Wright also puts it more eloquently than I ever could. If anyone is still reading and is interested, it’s here:

    Christian Hope in a Confusing World

  159. Posted by Headless Unicorn Guy on December 4, 2008 at 10:01 am

    I suffered from panic attacks for over five years after reading those books and watching that blasted movie. — Andrea

    I got caught in the last big bubble back in the Seventies. Then the Book was Late Great Planet Earth instead of Left Behind: The Neverending Series and the movies were Thief in the Night et al.

    Yom Kippur War Rapture Scare, 1973…
    Comet Kohoutek Rapture Scare, 1974…
    Rosh Hashanah Rapture Scare, 1975…
    Jupiter Effect Rapture Scare, 1981…
    It is now 2008. Do I need to go on?

    I was having flashbacks like a ‘Nam vet clear up until 1988 (coincidentally, when my writing partner (a burned-out country preacher) had his last flashback, courtesy of Edgar Whisenhaunt’s 88 Reasons Why The Rapture WILL Happen in 1988!. (Followed the next year by 89 Reasons Why The Rapture WILL Happen in 1989!!!…)

    My writing partner now credits John Nelson Darby and Hal Lindsay with destroying Evangelical Protestants in America.

  160. Posted by Headless Unicorn Guy on December 4, 2008 at 10:04 am

    I would try cell phones or places of work and not be able to get a hold of whoever I was trying to reach and the panic of “rapture” would kick in. My biggest fear was whether or not I was good enough to get taken in the split second when it would all come to pass. This type of thinking permeated my entire life. — Jenn

    That wasn’t a life, Jenn. You weren’t alive. You were “living” only to pass God’s Litmus Test and not be Left Behind.

  161. Posted by Headless Unicorn Guy on December 4, 2008 at 10:12 am

    I’ve heard that the movies are truly bad. On the other hand, the ’70s films A Thief In the Night, A Distant Thunder, Image of the Beast and The Prodigal Planet, while based on the same Rapture eschatology, are actually pretty entertaining, and the acting is decent, too. — E

    Anecdotes about Thief in the Night et al:

    Back when Rich Buhler was hosting an afternoon radio talk show in the Eighties, he mentioned that he had to pastoral/psych counsel a LOT of kids who were completely freaked out by that movie. After that “endorsement”, I stayed away from it; my head’s not wrapped all that tight to start with and I didn’t want to risk freaking out.

    Some twenty years later, I saw three clips from Thief in the Night as part of a PBS special on Christian Subculture. My word-for-word reactions were as follows:
    FIrst clip) “That’s Thief in the Night? It looks more like Manos, Hands of Fate!”
    Second clip) “Where’s Joel and the Bots?”
    Third clip) “AAAAAAAGH! WE HAVE MOVIE SIGN!!!!”

    And my writing partner told me about an unintentionally-hilarious scene in one of the sequels, which remains my type example of Christian Golden Turkey scenes:
    1) Mid-Trib; characters hiding out in shack in the woods.
    2) Something knocks at the door. Character gets up and answers it.
    3) Giant rubber scorpion stinger slowly extends through the open door, nails character in the chest.
    4) Character goes down screaming.
    5) Giant rubber scorpion stinger slowly retracts through the door, closing the door after itself.
    6) Stock footage of galloping horses’ hooves with voice-over from Revelation about the plague of Demon Locusts.

  162. Yes, the scorpion was sci-fi schlock at its best!

    The biggest gaffe, IMO, was in A Thief In The Night where the “mark of the beast” is on the forehead or the left hand. How could they screw up something like that? They got it right in A Distant Thunder, IIRC. I still think they’re worth watching. The actors and producers are so earnest.

  163. The Rapture with Mimi Rogers (the former first Mrs. Tom Cruise) is an interesting movie, but because of some nudity/sexuality, it may be considered objectionable to/by some people, but it raises some provocative religious questions – a rarity in Hollywood films.

  164. Posted by Headless Unicorn Guy on December 4, 2008 at 12:08 pm

    Yes, the scorpion was sci-fi schlock at its best! — E

    Yeah, now THAT was one Classic Bad Movie Scene worthy of Ed Wood!

    But Hal Lindsay still wins the Golden Turkey for the wildest interpretation of the Demon Locust Plague:
    Helicopter Gunships armed with Chemical Weapons and piloted by Long-Haired Bearded Hippies.
    Now THAT’s seriously surreal…

    …where the “mark of the beast” is on the forehead or the left hand. How could they screw up something like that?

    Well, I’m left-handed and I end up mirror-imaging directions and gestures all the time. And sometimes they do “flip” the film in post-production for directional consistency or production logistics.

  165. IIRC, it’s not a “flip,” because the words/letters in the movie at that point are correct – e.g., “UNITE.” (But I’ll double-check.) In fact, I think at one point they ask a person if he wants it on his forehead or left hand.

  166. [...] Molly Aley – Adventures In Mercy – “Obama Ushers In End Times” [...]

  167. Posted by Shane on January 7, 2009 at 1:37 am

    Don’t you people see that the problem here is religion itself. The bible constantly contradicts itself and leaves itself open to interpretation by any number of lunatics who wish it to say whatever they please. The irony of Moses returning from the mountains with the ten commandments including the ever-famous “thou shalt not kill” and then ordering his men to ruthlessly murder defensless “sinners” is absurd at best. This is the text you base your beliefs on and it is eternally flawed. What perfect being could dictate such a flawed word? Because we all know that it is the word of god sent down through man, correct? I think some people need to open their minds and study some of the works of Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens. Maybe watch a little film of their debates and speeches. Open your minds a bit and realize that compassion, tolerance, and kindness are inherently human traits which are all too often corrupted by religion.

  168. Posted by Deborah on January 7, 2009 at 8:06 pm

    Hi Shane, I appreciate your frustration. I’ll attempt (probably not a good idea, but I’ll do it) to say a brief something representing the general membership of the board (which I’ve been scoping out for all of a few months). Nay-sayers can nay-say me if they wish.

    None of us find all aspects of the text we revere easy. Difficulty does not mean wrong or flawed however (if, however, by flawed you mean that some Bible hereos did terrible things, we’d agree on the general point, and if by flawed you mean that the Old Testament Law was imperfect in displaying an ultimate ethic, we’d also agree–the most conservative scholars recognize that God was making concessions for cultural context). And I think all of us would agree that godly virtues often get corrupted by religion (I’d venture to say it is a favorite topic on this blog, at least in looking at Christianity). The assumption that we have not been open-minded would, however, I think be unfair for most here. Some of us have opened up and wrestled enough that our brains about fell out, and then we came crawling back to the only One who could put them back in order and heal them.

    The demands of holiness and the judgments of God are really hard concepts though; I agree. I still struggle with that sometimes. I mean, even the abundance of bloody animal sacrifices is terrible to have to think about even if a far more humane form of worship than many neighboring nations were practicing. But some of that struggle really starts to fall away when I grasp more of His holiness and my lack thereof and really agree with His assessment of what I or anyone would comparably deserve save Christ. And as for the sacrifices, even in the Old Testament, there is an emphasis on God’s preference for our hearts, e.g.–”Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams,
    with ten thousands of rivers of oil?…
    He has told you, O man, what is good;
    and what does the LORD require of you
    but to do justice, and to love kindness,
    and to walk humbly with your God?” (Micah 6:7-8)

    One thing that helps in looking at the Old Testament warfare is that the New Testament gives us a new grid for looking at it by saying that our “warfare” is spiritual–not about flesh and blood but about unseen spiritual powers. It essentially directs us, then, to look at the bloodshed of the past in terms of metaphors for prayer and for our personal and corporate struggles in learning to progress in the Christian walk of spiritual formation and behavior. And I find a wealth of rich metaphors there. The other emphasis in approaching those stories is the great ways God intervened for people who loved Him.

  169. Molly,

    I have just started going through your blog, but I wanted you to know that so far I’ve really liked what I’ve seen. I pastor a church near South Bend, IN (www.oasis-granger.com) . Always glad to come across people that “get” the grace message. Good stuff! If you get a chance, make sure and check out our podcasts, there is a link on the front page of the website I posted. I would recommend, “Gospel revolution”, but the others are great too. Feel free to drop me a line, I’m always up for talking about Grace.

    -Lucas (Lucas@oasis-granger.com)

  170. Posted by staci fletcher on June 6, 2009 at 4:18 pm

    Molly -

    I just stumbled across this particular post and am so thankful to God for putting those words on the internet through you. I am 40 years old and have been a “Christian” my whole life and severely disappointed that the Pharisee in me has not produced “happier” results in my life. By the grace of God alone he has truly saved me now. The venue he used to bring me to this saving grace is a book entitled “Inside Out” by Dr. Larry Crabb. Working through this book has brought about a MAJOR paradigm shift in my life from self-protection; the ultimate sin against God; to moving towards unconditional love; the ulitmate glorification of God. Just thought it might be one you would be interested in adding to your vast array of books helping those who are saved or who want to be saved in pointing them to the true Gospel of Jesus Christ. God Bless You and your family!

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