Guest Post From a Reader: On Compromise, Love, and the Church

[From Molly: The following post is not written by me.  It came into my inbox, meant to be a private ramble between friends, but I begged the author to let me share it with you.  Permission was granted, with the caveat that the author remain anonymous.  These kind of mullings are not exactly smiled upon in many conservative Christian circles.  I found the contents of the email to be too good to leave sitting in my poor neglected inbox.  Know that this letter is by no means an essay, but written more in the spirit of thoughtful wondering about what our faith is supposed to look like in our world. I hope you find these ponderings as muse-worthy as I have].

The Letter

I’ve been really thinking about what a friend of mine had to say about proximity and how it shapes us.  Here’s a quote:

“ We know that “bad company corrupts good behavior,” which of course can just as easily be said for the Pharisee as the atheist—but still, it can’t be good to become so comfortable with sin that we live compromised lives, nor can it be good to be so far removed from evil that we feel we are immune to it or somehow better than those in more unfortunate circumstances.”

Yes, this is the crux of it:  how to live in the world and not be OF the world.  The thing that has been running around my head:  what is compromise?   I can remember when I thought my only interaction with the world was supposed to be “witnessing.”  When I was a kid I read some biography of D.L. Moody and got it into my head that I never wanted to have a conversation with an unbeliever without preaching to him/her.   That went over well.  :)    And back in those days, I would have thought friendship with a gay neighbor – and by this I mean talking in the yard, car-pooling, letting the kids play together, taking food when someone’s sick – was compromise.   Unless i was actively and verbally letting them know they were in sin and needed Christ, I was basically becoming like Lot and his ridiculous family – in danger of fire and brimstone.

What is compromise to me now?   Hmmm…..that’s a lot harder.   Refusing to share the gospel when the time and the relationship are right?  Not acknowledging – in my heart and to others if that is necessary – the sin of “active” homosexuality?   Becoming a lesbian myself?    All of those things seem like compromise….but living side by side with the world, seeking the same justice for every person (honoring the imago dei in each human) and more than that:  serving the world in love and kindness…those don’t seem to be compromises to me.  One home-schooling friend of mine recently said to me,

“I think (and could be very, very misled) that same-sex couples have every right to the “ability to teach school children.”

It is a public school system, and their children attend the system, and thus, I deeply appreciate their desire to have their lifestyle taught as acceptable, normal.
I don’t see this as a “fierce agenda.”


Ah…agendas.  I never know what people mean by that word.  Growing up, I thought there was a group of evil people – filled with Satan  – who made it their life’s work to subvert christianity and plant seeds of evolution and death everywhere.  I imagined a wicked mastermind and a written plan of slow, but steady takeover of our minds.  “First, we get everyone to doubt the existence of God….then we tell them the earth is 6 billion years old….next, we’ll convince them noah’s ark is just a myth….”  with evil laughing and rubbing of hands included.  :)   

Of course we all have agendas to promote.  Our kids eat and breathe the doctrine of capitalism, free markets and consumerism.  I’m not sure there’s an organized group pushing that at them…just that the majority of north americans believe in it and we set up our countries to pursue it and thus our kids are shaped by it.  ( I actually find capitalism – in my limited understanding – to be contrary to the Biblical model for finances.  Not a sin, per se, just not the ideal model.   Interesting that American Christians aren’t outraged by the sin of usury.  Oh yeah, most of us participate freely in that one….)

Anyway, I kind of agree with my friend.  A public school should be representative of the whole public – and like it or not, there are gay families everywhere.  I never had a problem with alternate descripitions of “family” – in the sense of describing how people actually live.  Even in an ideal christian community you are going to have families made up of all types and I think it’s fine to validate the home situations of children. 

One thing iIm seeing in the comment thread is that there is some confusion on who is supposed to be “other” in this world.  It seems like people have forgotten that WE are to be strangers and aliens…a peculiar people, set apart, lights shining on a hill.   The unfortunate part of the myth of a “christian nation” is that we get confused about how we are supposed to fit into the whole thing.   We’re not used to being the minority voice (though they would claim they are a persecuted and misunderstood minority – the whole liberal media, etc.)  and we certainly don’t want to give equal time to the other voices out there.  

I don’t know, I always think about my role here as a missionary.  Once you take the questions out of the context of your own culture it gets easier to see the answers, I think.   How would I act in a Hindu nation?  A Muslim one?   Would I be picketing and screaming and demanding they change their laws to reflect my minority Christian values? 

Or would I go about living my life quietly according to the principles of God’s word?  Just modeling the truth:  this is what marriage looks like in God’s kingdom, this is what love looks like, this is what justice looks like….until people begin to examine their own individual lives in the light of Christ. 

And the question one friend of mine poses about keeping ourselves separate yet being close enough to love is so important.  I think this is our biggest problem in the church.  We use the law to maintain order and uphold standards.  Jesus used grace to do the same thing.  In Jesus we see this beautiful tension:  an invisible authority that gives no place to sin and upholds righteousness in team with a shocking lack of legalism and requirement. 

We talked about this before, I think, that the church needs to be a hospital – not an art gallery.  We are working to eradicate cancer and aids and fix broken bones….but the whole building is full of sickness – some of it longterm, some of it easily mended.   We should be saying to the world:  come in, come rest.  Lie here and I will bring you food and make sure you are warm and we’ll do what is necessary to get you healed up and whole. 

Instead, our churches try to be art galleries:  full of beautiful paintings and a few security guards.  “Make sure you’re quiet and don’t come in without a tie.”

If we were a safe place to get healed, we wouldn’t have to be separate from the people God asks us to love.  Our kids would know gay couples because they would be in our churches alongside us.   (and I suspect… there are gay people in all our lives – they just don’t talk about it and they sure aren’t going to hold seige to our churches.) 

Perhaps there is no more vivid mark of an UNHEALTHY church than that there are no embarrassing sinners in our pews.  Seems to me, Jesus was dripping with prostitutes and tax collectors while He was here.

I can only think that our churches have a form of godliness, but deny its power.   True godliness – of the kind Jesus possesses -  must have an awesome attraction and power to keep us from falling into compromise and sin. 

And here’s a thought:  if we isolate ourselves from the sickness of sin, we forget after awhile what we’ve been saved from and how precious is the life He’s given.  If we surround our children with only the light…how will they ever know what “darkness” means?  Why should they fear it?  Why should they avoid it? 

But if they walk the halls of the hospital, tending to the wounded and watching love in action…who would choose cancer over the chance to be a nurse?  Who would want to be stuck in a wheelchair when you could be running down the hall with medicine and a cup of water?

I think, in a home where Christ dwells, proximity to the world breeds love for the world – not necessarily compromise and complacency.

I don’t think, however, that we need to move into cities and go chase “sinners.”  :)   I think God has placed us uniquely where He wants His light to shine – and whomever we meet on the paths we each travel are the ones God sent to us to love.   I’m apparently called to love red-neck, racist republican baptists and a few mormons.  *sigh*  The liberals were easier.

151 Responses to this post.

  1. That is fantastic. I’ve got some different ideas about what “church pews” should be used for, namely, discipleship instead of evangelism, but this is beautiful nonetheless. And let’s face it, many “pews” are very used to being used to evangelize “seekers” (despite my objections), and this vision would be a welcome improvement in doing that. I particularly loved these quotes:

    “In Jesus we see this beautiful tension: an invisible authority that gives no place to sin and upholds righteousness in team with a shocking lack of legalism and requirement.”

    and

    ” if we isolate ourselves from the sickness of sin, we forget after awhile what we’ve been saved from and how precious is the life He’s given. If we surround our children with only the light…how will they ever know what “darkness” means? Why should they fear it? Why should they avoid it? But if they walk the halls of the hospital, tending to the wounded and watching love in action…who would choose cancer over the chance to be a nurse?”

  2. I really enjoyed this post. Thanks for sharing (and thanks to the author for letting you share it). I especially liked the point about churches should be like a hospital, where people come to get healed, not like an art gallery where it’s all about image.

  3. Posted by Holly on November 18, 2008 at 1:30 pm

    To everyone’s great relief, I’ll sit this one out, Molly. :)

    I so profoundly disagree with the philosophical underpinnings of this way of thinking.

    But I sure do still love you all.

  4. Holly,

    I understand if you don’t want to answer, but I admit to wondering what the philosophical underpinnings are that you see in the post. ?

    Love ya, sistah (and no sighs of relief here—more like, “Aw, no way! You HAFTA be a part of this!”

    :)

    It’s okay. You can tell me no. lol…

  5. Posted by wysiwyg on November 18, 2008 at 2:59 pm

    I’m wondering then, if we stay with the ideas in this post, how do sinners, who are openly accepted where they are at, find the truth in the Lord and move from their sin if they are so welcomed fully in their sin? I do think we should be actively loving people more instead of preaching at them, but why would anyone see a need to change if everything is fine status quo? There needs to be some line I think. Where, I don’t really know but it would seem in loving the sinner but hating the sin, one would need to define what you mean by “acceptance”. I would have no problem helping a sick or dying sinner. I would have no problem bringing meals or helping financially. Whether they would find the Lord is irrelevant because we are called to minister to others. But does that mean I never share the gospel? How do you balance this? I see us humans overcorrecting so many times. There are points on both sides of this that are valid. To love others but also uphold God’s righteousness is possible, but seems to be elusive to many of us.

  6. Posted by Holly on November 18, 2008 at 3:01 pm

    Oh, okay…in a nutshell because supper is calling, begging to be made….

    The bottom line is that if you follow this line of thinking (and I mean the huge, grand scale of it all, not just on this topic) you lose the ability to call anything sin. If there are no moral rights or wrongs, no guidelines for what is acceptable to teach to children as right or wrong – nothing is sin.

    You lose the moral authority as a parent, even in private, to tell your children that something is a sin. That presents an entirely different path than our nation has ever walked before.

    Maybe it’s just me and the way I see these huge picture in my brain – but there are night and day differences and also dramatic ramifications of both views. Someone questioned in the last post if this was a modern v. post-modern way of looking at things. I don’t think so…I think it comes down to liberalism v. conservatism, which is an age old problem.

    There are no societies who have made this leap (no sin, so sacredness to life nor to relationships) that have survived for very long. The integrity of the marriage relationship (mother, father, and children if they are so blessed) are vital.

    Okay – many duties call. :) Let me have it.

    Love – Holly

  7. Posted by Holly on November 18, 2008 at 3:04 pm

    Oh…p.s.

    YES, though, to the loving, living, serving. ABSOLUTELY!!!!! More of that than ANYTHING else! That’s where the church has to go. No more sitting on our duffs – preaching but doing nothing and loving less….

  8. Hi Mystery Writer,

    First of all “I’m apparently called to love red-neck, racist republican baptists and a few mormons.” Are you my neighbor??

    Second, “Seems to me, Jesus was dripping with prostitutes and tax collectors while He was here.” AMEN! In the previous post’s comments I saw some people trying to sidestep that, as though Jesus only hung out with saved sinners. If Jesus is our model, we are going to be surrounded by those who do not yet know his love. Sadly, our churches often make that difficult by filling our lives with activities like Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night (the second sabbath), Bible study, Discipleship groups, Christian sports teams, homeschool groups, etc. It is so easy to insulate ourselves with the “likeminded” lest our children become aware that they live in a sinful culture.

    We have had the real JOY of coming out of such a sheltering environment and helping our kids navigate the world in which they live. It truly has been a joy!

    And last (I think), one issue I have with those who fear that by behaving in a loving manner toward those in sin (homosexuals, to use a popular example) we are condoning their sin….The place I hear that most often seems to be out of the lips of fat people. Sorry if that offends, but really. HOW DARE we as Christians wear the sin of gluttony all over our bodies while we hold our noses and walk past the homosexual, or the unwed pregnant lady. I mean, really! And I speak as someone who is struggling to lose extra pounds myself. We are so self-righteous, picking on certain sins but coddling our own. Do you think the world doesn’t recognize that and despise it? I don’t like the in-your-face antics of certain groups either (like the ones flinging condoms in the church last week). But can you imagine how Christianity FEELS to them? It’s a judgmental noose! And it should be a welcoming hospital as this poster has stated.

    Thanks for posting this, Molly! And thanks for letting it be posted, mystery person!

  9. wysiwyg and Holly and others,

    if you follow this line of thinking (and I mean the huge, grand scale of it all, not just on this topic) you lose the ability to call anything sin. If there are no moral rights or wrongs, no guidelines for what is acceptable to teach to children as right or wrong – nothing is sin. –Holly

    “how do sinners, who are openly accepted where they are at, find the truth in the Lord and move from their sin if they are so welcomed fully in their sin?”–wysiwyg

    But, wait. Is this what this writer was saying?

    I didn’t hear that. ??

    I did hear the writer saying that there is a HUGE difference between the sick and those nursing the sick.

    I did *not* hear the writer saying that sin is good, or that sin doesn’t harm.

    The writer attributed sin to illness, to cancer, to sickness requiring hospitalization… That didn’t seem like the kind of acceptance that doesn’t care about truth and the healing that real Truth (as in the Person, not simply “facts”) can bring.

    ?

    (PS. What’s for dinner…?) :)

  10. Posted by Dee on November 18, 2008 at 3:33 pm

    There does need to be balance. Reading the Bible, praying for discernment, then going and becoming the light to the world, it’s all part of what needs to be done.

    It would be hard to welcome an openly gay couple into your church family. But, we have couples living together, couples who are divorced and re-married, couples who are dating and sleeping together, who are not married, etc. We have sinners in the church.

    We are all sinners, in one form or another. But, where do we decide how to handle/address things? We need to be light and salt at the same time.

  11. Posted by Holly on November 18, 2008 at 3:33 pm

    And me again….my nutshell keeps getting bigger, doesn’t it? :) But in between hamburgers and roasted winter root veggies….

    Where do you draw that line of which views should be represented? Polygamy? (If not, why?) Incest, pedophilia, bestiality? Why can’t a brother love a sister – who decides? Who is to say? And why, if there are families who live that way, shouldn’t their way of life be accepted and taught as normal? There are good people everywhere who are trapped in each of those situations – people who never meant to “go there,” but went there and who live that way. If you take away the ability to regulate marriage in a civil manner, and relegate it to only a religious status – then these other lifestyles need to be allowed and protected and taught as well. I don’t see where we stop.

    And if your children are taught this way at school, but then they come home at the end of the day and you say, “we don’t believe that way, sweetheart,” how and why would they believe you – particularly during the difficult hormonal years?

    Just to clarify, I don’t believe in over sheltering children. My kids are getting older – my 16 year old has a job in the real world. He’ll be taking college classes soon. I don’t want to keep him from that. The Lord can USE him – why would I want to keep him in a box! :) But on a societal level, I don’t see the benefit nor the health in redefining our relationships nor the concept of sin in the name of love and compassion.

  12. Posted by Holly on November 18, 2008 at 3:36 pm

    I’m saying, Molls, that if on a legal level relationships other than marriage as between one man and one woman are accepted, you lose the right to even call anything sin.

    Of course the church should be treating and healing and comforting and feeding! But on a legal level, they lose the right to offer an alternative to people who might want one!

  13. Posted by wysiwyg on November 18, 2008 at 4:01 pm

    I’m just wondering what the ideal picture would look like? I think the writer was saying we should be working, living, and loving right along side of our fellow sinners(we are all in this boat). And I agree. But if that were to include(and I’m not saying I disagree with this) being great, close friends with said fellow sinner such as a homosexual, where and when do you live for what you (hypothetically) believe to be right/ wrong? Do you ever share your convictions? I hear people saying they don’t want to be preached at. Give me a hypothetical picture of what an ideal love the sinner- hate the sin ,be friends lead to salvation story is. I myself am tired of all my past judgments on others, and have slowly over the last few years started to unravel this train of thought. BUT… so far, I don’t see anyone on the “other” side wanting to hear the truth of sin. Everyone is mad about “Christianity”. While I don’t blame them to some degree (I have my own anger), I don’t like being clumped with the likes of rednecked racists. Where do we get off the merry go round of judging each other into these groups? I would like to see each other as individuals in need of love from God but I don’t see any “side” as a whole wanting that. Although we all SAY we want it.

  14. Posted by ambitiousoutsider on November 18, 2008 at 4:24 pm

    I’m saying, Molls, that if on a legal level relationships other than marriage as between one man and one woman are accepted, you lose the right to even call anything sin.

    That’s clearly not true, though. You believe that divorce is sin, right? Totally legal. Adultery? No longer a crime. I’m not a religious person, but we can probably all agree that two of the most amazing and wonderful things about this country is that
    1. we are not living in a theocracy
    2. *nor* are we living an an anti-religious society.
    We don’t have to live under Islamic law or the Pope or Doug Phillips – but at the same time we have the freedom to worship and associate and establish any churches we please – isn’t that phenomenal?
    And those churches are free to make any rules they want about What Marriage Is and means and who they’ll bring together under which circumstances AND how people should behave within those marriages. And that’s great. But there’s *also* a *civil* institution called “marriage” – and it doesn’t include wifely submission, or refraining from the use of contraceptives, or not touching your husband until you’ve had your monthly mikvah bath because civil marriage isn’t about that realm – it’s about boring, civil things, like visiting in hospitals and inheriting property. And extending those rights to gay people doesn’t effect straight people at all – and it certainly doesn’t effect their own intimate relationships with their spouses and children.
    (basically, and I’ll put it in parens because it’s a serious thing to say – I think being against gay marriage for religiously motivated reasons is kind of un-American).

  15. I have to run my kid to karate lessons, but real quick…it really bothers me the way we talk about “homosexuality” as if it is this sin that is completely seperate from other sins.

    From what I can tell, most of us, including myself, interpret the Bible to say that sexual sins are destructive to us and to others, and we believe the Bible’s description of sexual sin includes same-gender sex. (I realize there are opinions to the contrary here as well).

    But in that same Bible, and often in chapters and verses right next to lists of sexual sins, I see a whole lot of others sins listed that Christians often completely ignore.

    I’m not sure how to remedy that. It just really bothers me. If I were inclined to be attracted to the other sex, it would REALLY make me have a difficult time with Christians—not because they called same-gender sex sinful, but because they seemed to say it was a sin above all sins. The person with no self-control? No prob. The person struggling with jealousy? No prob. The person who uses violence to get what he wants (like the heros in the Left Behind series)? No prob. The homosexual who is engaged in same-gender sex? AAAAAAAAAAAAAUUUUUUGHHHHHHH!

    I think it’s fair to say that they are the modern day version of the tax-gatherer and prostitute.

    And I think it’s also fair to say that the way the conservative church treats them, betrayed by the way we TALK about them (as Them, as The Others, as Not Us), is more like the Pharisee’s treatment of the tax-collecters than it’s anything close to what Christ did.

    Christ went up to a tax collecters booth, and called that tax-collecter to follow him. On the spot. Made him one of His 12–a coveted position.

    A modern day equal would be Christ walking into a gay bar and calling one of the dancers to follow him. In our version of the Gospel, though, that would never happen.

  16. Posted by wysiwyg on November 18, 2008 at 4:38 pm

    I think I was only using “homosexual” because that is a topic that seems to be in the forefront of the legal world these days as well. I could very well substitute gluttony (as one comment mentioned). My husband was looked down upon for years in the church for smoking and drinking beer- gasp! But no one ever spoke up to the morbidly obese people who were trapped in their sin. Ironically, I have come to see drinking as not a sin. Did you know the bible never says drinking is a sin? Amazing I know, but true. There, I’ve brought up several other “sins” to use. Does that help? I personally see them all the same.

  17. I found your post thought-provoking, and it reminded me a lot of Philip Yancey’s profound book _What’s So Amazing About Grace?_ I highly recommend it to you Molly if you haven’t already read it.

    My daughter has a friend in her classroom that has lesbian parents. (I also have a gay uncle as well as other acquaintances who are gay in my life) Anyways, they are the most devoted parents I’ve met in a long time and are a pleasure to be around.

    To make a long story short, God has CLEARLY placed them on my heart the first time I saw them. Literally, everywhere I turn at school functions or in the community, I run into one of them. I look up at the heavens and say, “Ok, God, I’m ready! Show me the way” I pray for them whenever I think of them and pray for opportunities to show them Christ’s love not bash them over the head with their sin.

    People are drawn to the Lord through His love and grace. That doesn’t mean if I developed a relationship with this couple that I would shy away from the truth. Not a chance! But how do I even develop a relationship with them if I’m looking for an opportunity to hit them over the head with the proverbial baseball bat?

    So, i mostly agree with you, but I’m a little nervous about your statement about a gay couple sitting next to my family at church. If they happen to come in church, I pray that we can love them. However, there are soooo many scriptures that would force my church to be honest with a gay couple about their sin. If they say they are believers yet engage in homosexuality, adultery, or fornication the Bible says a whole lot about that in 1 Corinthians. They would be approached and if refused to change, would be out of the church. Those are all different situations than someone who doesn’t know God and is in a homosexual relationship.

  18. Wisywig, You asked, “But if that were to include(and I’m not saying I disagree with this) being great, close friends with said fellow sinner such as a homosexual, where and when do you live for what you (hypothetically) believe to be right/ wrong? Do you ever share your convictions?”

    This isn’t hypothetical. It is true. As I have come more and more OUT of an environment where I sheltered myself from the world, I have made friends with people very much in the world. There is a couple who have been married for 10 years. They are lesbians and have 3 children, birthed by one of the two women. (I won’t go into how and all of that in this post.) I am just…friends with them. And my daughter is friends with their daughter. When Sally asks about the two mommies thing, I tell her at this point that yeah some families are different. My older kids know more about how we view their relationship (sin) because I can trust them not to broadcast that to the couple. At this point, I am just friends with them. Not trying to shove their sin in their faces, not challenging them, just being a friend.

    And I’m not afraid about that because there’s another couple – married man and woman with two kids. Hippie types. They have not been in a church since they were children, and the wife has been “burned” in the past so has had NO desire to be part of a church. But she loves to talk, and we are great friends. Because we have gotten really close, she knows what I think and believe. I have never had to tell her that I think it was sinful that she and her husband are together because they had sex the first day they met, for example. I live my life, we talk about philosophy, we talk about why abortion offends me (I have a son with Down syndrome, among other things), we talk about her husband being involved in AA, etc. We are in a bookclub together, and we read all kinds of books and discuss their meaning to us personally. She asked my husband and me to tell her what we think it means to be a Christian. VOILA – she asked for the gospel! And we told her! She didn’t fall on her knees and accept Jesus on the spot or anything dramatic, but she listened with respect, because we have that kind of relationship. She recently told me I was the most Christian person she knows. Which touched me deeply and made me think, “She doesn’t know many people.” ;-) She also went to church a few times recently. First time since she was a kid. Not my church, and not a church I would likely go to, but one where she is hearing truth, although it is a mainline church. All I want is for her to know who Jesus is. And she is, and she will. I don’t have to confront her about her sin. That’s not to say I never will, or that in a different relationship I won’t have to. But in this situation, at this time, that is not MY job.

    And I have learned a ton from this. Back to the lesbian couple. I don’t know what my role is, but right now it is just to love them. That doesn’t scare me or make me feel guilty that I’m not doing my job. That IS my job for now, and if and when that changes, God will let me know. I know this because I have allowed myself to have other “pagan” relationships, and I have seen how God has been able to use even me, when I’m being my non-judgmental self.

    And it’s REALLY COOL!!!

  19. Posted by My 2 Cents on November 18, 2008 at 4:56 pm

    Just canNOT get over how you have spoken things that I cannot seem to say eloquently. You and whoever your writer friend are. WOW. I’ll read and re-read several times…wow. Good stuff. Thank you (seems so lame to say it that way, but it’s sincere).

  20. April,

    You said, “However, there are soooo many scriptures that would force my church to be honest with a gay couple about their sin. If they say they are believers yet engage in homosexuality, adultery, or fornication the Bible says a whole lot about that in 1 Corinthians. They would be approached and if refused to change, would be out of the church.”

    I guess what I wonder is if that is the church’s stance on sin, why only certain sins?? Do you have fat people in your church? Do you confront them? Do you have people who are prideful and self-righteous? Are they kicked out of the church? What about the person who gets themselves into serious debt because they overspend on unnecessary things? Or the dad who struggles with anger and strikes his child and yells at his wife?

    Honestly, I’m asking this as someone who is still a member of a church that would also kick out the practicing homosexual couple. And frankly, I’m asking as someone who isn’t totally sure what I think! I guess right now I’m in a mode of thinking we are so inconsistent as Christians, and we get all in the faces of those whose sins we don’t struggle with. But if it’s one of a certain group of “acceptable” sins, we just turn a blind eye. I think the outside world sees that, and it breeds hatred among them.

  21. Molly,
    Wow! This is beautiful. Whoever wrote this letter, I believe her thoughts and questions are so right-on, in many aspects from showing our love to others, being the Light, treatment of homosexuals and others struggling with sin.

    Thanks for posting this. What a treasure trove of substance here.

    Blessings,
    ~Amy :)
    Author of “Orphaned Into Belonging”
    http://www.lulu.com/content/4781677
    http://amyiswalkinginthespirit.blogspot.com

  22. Posted by Holly on November 18, 2008 at 5:17 pm

    Chewymom, I think that’s great. It sounds like you are loving people just like God would want you to do. Wonderful!

    Molly, you bought up the separations of sins. As a pastor, my husband counseled all types of people. He counseled people who were “living together” that they were sinning – but of course didn’t leave them adrift without hope. He had the unfortunate difficulties of confronting men who had abandoned their families for other women, and with the Lord’s help the families were made whole again. Those sins were no less sin than homosexual sins, and churches shouldn’t ignore the hetero sin. (And they weren’t. And families were healed.) Gluttony, lust, gossip – blech.

    We had a few couples that were gay. All were welcomed, and most certainly loved warmly. They were family They aren’t “others,” they are sinners just like we are. But very few were regular at our services, because, well, like Jesus the church said “go and sin no more.” Who wants to attend church that says they are sinning? Quite frankly, most homosexual people that consider themselves Christians are not going to be happy when you say they are sinning. They do not believe that they are, and it is hurtful to even say that there is sin involved.

    I’m not making light of the issue. I read the link you posted the other day, Molly – and thought the same as you did. It takes guts to come out and say the things the young missionary said. I think this is a very difficult issue for churches. It seems that the choice often is to say either 1) scripture didn’t mean that this is sin and so, you are fine or 2) you are sinning, and you can’t keep living that way. I think it is easier for an individual to befriend, love, and care unconditionally…..but….churches need to have the ability to draw the line at all sins and hold to their beliefs.

    p.s. Am I misunderstanding a portion of the letter above? Wasn’t part of the topic to say that it is understandable and thus okay for homosexual parents to teach children that homosexuality is normal and acceptable, and what right do other parents have to say that they can’t?

  23. Great stuff…I have no comments, as a cookie making station is currently all over my counter top, as are a bunch of dough-covered hands…but I wanted to throw in, Holly, an answer to your question just now.

    I think the writer was just saying that she can understand how a gay couple is NOT going to want to send their child to a “public” school where their child is taught that their family is wrong, or their family is not really a family.

    A public school is, by nature, not a place where only one religion is allowed to be represented, but is supposed to be inclusive. Moral judgements can be made and explained at home, but the public school is not the place to say that Buddhism is better than Catholicism—nor to say that two mommies are bad.

    The friend being quoted, btw, is a homeschool mom. Her children don’t go to public school. She was just saying that she can completely understand why the two moms aren’t going to be happy about a so-called public school that teaches that their family isn’t a “real” family. She was just putting herself in the shoes of the two moms.

  24. Posted by Jae on November 18, 2008 at 6:48 pm

    ?Hey Molly, great post, lots to mull over. I like how chewymom eloquently put it.
    Working in the hairdressing business has given me many opportunities to befriend many gays and lesbians. I’ll bet you never imagined living in Podunk, Alaska that one could ever establish friendships with such loving, funny people.

    As mystery writer put it:
    “I don’t think, however, that we need to move into cities and go chase “sinners.” :)

    Did I miss the boat here? Aren’t we all sinners? We’d be chasing each other in circles if we had to go chase all sinners. Showing love towards any sinners is like catching more flies with honey. Who am I to judge other sinners? I had a confrontation from a “knowing” friend in church who after years decided to lecture me for assuming I was not married. Husband does not attend church and I’m too fat to wear my wedding ring at the moment. I literally laughed out loud. Here I am going on my 15th anniversary. What right did he have to even say anything?
    No, I’m not actively defiant towards Gods law but there are those days that I”m lippy with the husband and he’s away at work and the kids are stressing me out and I’m impatient with them. Yes, I ask for forgiveness from both God and the family. I am truely remorseful. Jesus washes me clean again.
    Was I too transparent?

  25. Posted by bonnie on November 18, 2008 at 6:56 pm

    I didn’t see anyone losing their moral authority, Holly. The idea, if I’ve caught it correctly, is that Jesus had this innate authority, or aura of authority, where people were drawn to him, to his light *and* his righteousness. Like he called out the righteousness in them. How do we get there? Can we stand strong in the brutal face of sin and love (not “the sin”) but the face in front of us?

    I think I understand the call to stop hiding from “the sinners” as to protect myself and my children, but to expose the sin for what it is through grace and love. Yes, wysiwyg, so elusive!

  26. bonnie,

    yes, i see this here too: “In Jesus we see this beautiful tension: an invisible authority that gives no place to sin and upholds righteousness in team with a shocking lack of legalism and requirement. ”

    there is something about Christ in the gospels that draws all kinds of people and yet we never see Him lose His righteousness. how do we get that?!

    i really liked the way you described it.

  27. Posted by Liesl on November 18, 2008 at 7:19 pm

    Holly – I agree with your comments!

    Molly – I agree that public school is not the place to say that two mommies are bad, but it’s also not the place to enforce that two mommies are good. There’s got to be a balance. Unfortunately, alot of the gay “agenda” is to enforce that people accept their lifestyle – take the school field trip of 1st graders to a gay marriage or requirement to have elementary kids sign a waiver that they would never say anything discriminatory about a gay student – if so how come the same isn’t done for Christians, etc. And by accept I don’t mean “love the sinner, hate the sin”. To “them” (for lack of better word) simply saying homosexuality is a sin is hate. I think we can all agree that believing the Bible is not hatred.

    I totally appreciate however the great points that homosexuality isn’t the only sin. My church does a great job of acting like a hospital. In fact that’s what our past preacher often said. We even have a “gay” community in our church – but they are not practicing homosexuals. Gays are welcomed in but they usually either leave or become Christians and quit sinning. And our elders approach any Christian member the same way that is “living in sin” – adultery, fornication, etc.

    Chewymom – you asked how come only confront people with homosexuality and not other sins – well it’s also to be all sexual immorality. I Corinthians 5 specifically talks about to not assoicate with those in the body who continue in sexual sin. Doesn’t mention other sins. Now that doesn’t mean you don’t still love and try to disciple but you do break the Christian bonds.

    I do believe however we can make a distinction of sin by the following two categories:
    - a person who struggles with anger, but works on it – they are not perfect but they recognize it as sin and don’t make it a point to purposefully sin
    - a person gets caught up in passion and commits fornication and repents
    Category Two
    - a gay person or an adulterer or a fornicator that says “I don’t agre with the Bible and I’m going to do what I want” and purposefully sins

    Paul talks about this in Romans when he says we’ll never be perfect and always be sinners, but we shouldn’t purposefully go on sinning

    I must say I’m surprised at the comments of capitalism being a sin??? Greed yes, but capitalism no. Yes there are greedy capitalists, but there is alot of greed and envy and idleness in socialism. And we should be careful of generally assuming a person who is overweight is guilty of gluttony, that may be true for some but not all. I have way too many friends who are overweight who are not in the least bit gluttonous.

    The letter states:
    “I imagined a wicked mastermind and a written plan of slow, but steady takeover of our minds.”

    You know what that really isn’t too far from the truth. Only it’s not a mastermind of people, it’s the mastermind of Satan. I bet Satan is so happy that we sit here in our comfy Christian circles debating sin and talking about how we should “love” them and just accept people in their choice to sin. Perhaps the greatest love would be to not accept the choice to sin. But as many have said we have to befriend people first and show them God’s mercy and love before we approach the sin.

  28. Posted by Deborah on November 18, 2008 at 7:29 pm

    Molly,

    I’m very much relating on, “I’m apparently called to love red-neck, racist republican baptists and a few mormons. *sigh* The liberals were easier.” Looking forward to moving back north some day. Anyhow, for well over a decade I have had a strong heart for the gay community (for a long while there God just put me in situations with a lot of GLBT folks and really talked to me about more effective future relational ministry among them). I’m sitting it out now in the buckle of the Bible belt, but I haven’t forgotten that. So I agree with so much of your post about loving, etc.

    What I so completely cannot agree with is teaching homosexuality to children in school. I understand the social confusion and discrimination that children of gay parents may experience, and it’s one of many reasons why I am pained for them. But I cannot “fix” that by making it school curriculum. The fact that gay parents may have relational reasons to desire the curriculum above “agenda” reasons does not change this. Would I send children to a school where it was already instituted? Possibly. But I do think it is something worth resisting, although I hate that resisting it tends to mark one as hateful in the eyes of those who also need God’s love. Mostly I would hope (although I fear it too rarely happens or too rarely is executed well) that Christian parents would lovingly but truthfully (and age appropriately) explain the dynamics in those families to their children.

    Deb

  29. Posted by Deborah on November 18, 2008 at 7:31 pm

    resisting making that curriculum that is (reads like i mean resist sending to school)

  30. Posted by ambitiousoutsider on November 18, 2008 at 7:51 pm

    I dunno if anyone is *teaching* homosexuality to kids in public schools – or heterosexuality, for that matter. But I agree with the anonymous essayist that there’s nothing wrong with acknowledging different kinds of families that exist, in reality, within public schools. I grew up in a working class community, and most of the kids I went to elementary school with (and most of the families in our parish) were from families with never-married single moms as head of household. My mom is Catholic – and I never experienced any kind of dissonance or confusion between “sex outside of marriage is wrong” and “lots of people do it anyway”. What’s *typical* and what’s *commanded* weren’t the same – why would they be? So in my elementary school, if teachers had insisted that a family is a mommy and a daddy – it would have been strange and cruel because it just wasn’t true for everyone. There are different kinds of families – whether there *ought* to be or not.
    For all of the references to the lesbian-wedding-field-trip – I just want to clarify that what happened was that a first grade teacher was getting married to her girlfriend, and the *parents* organized themselves to take their own children to surprise the teacher on the steps of city hall. And – I think – it was a really nice surprise. And if you don’t think it’s nice, don’t worry, you won. They went to bed married on November 2nd, but they woke up unmarried the next morning.
    -maura

  31. Deborah,
    My kids go to public school. I would pull them out if they were being taken to gay marriages as field trips, just as I would pull them out if they were taken to Christian church services for field trips, or to the Ba’hai temple. It violates the spirit of what a “public” school is supposed to be about.

    I don’t mind one bit my children being taught about homosexuality in general, as in, “Most people are attracted to the opposite sex. That is called heterosexual. There are some, however, who are not attracted to the opposite sex but are attracted to the same sex. That is called homosexual.”

    That is factual information. Heck, I’ve already taught them the above. Going beyond that is where I would have a problem. As a Christian, I believe that sex is meant within certain boundaries. The fact that it feels good makes it really hard to keep it within those boundaries….I think we all “get” that. But if I am going to be true to what I believe the Bible is saying, I have to say that I believe that it is a misuse of sex to engage in it outside of the boundaries God intended it for.

    [Btw, I have read and listened to some excellent arguments for why some [including some conservative theologians] believe that the Bible’s prohibitions against homosexual sex are actually talking about homosexual temple prostitution, NOT a committed monogomous gay relationship…and there are some really good points to be made (points that folks like me will NEVER hear in our respective circles unless we venture out)… That said, I personally would need to do a lot more studying before I could be convinced…so far, some good points, yes, but a lot seem to rely on some fairly weak lines… But I certainly am reading these with interest and admit…ya’ll have got some decent points, and I will continue to listen in on the arguments, even while currently not finding them strong enough to put my feet on]…

    Again, it’s important to note that this letter from my Inbox is not advocating that we all cheer some ultra-left radical gay agenda in our schools. Please note that the person who made the statement my friend quoted is a homeschooler. She has pulled her children out of public school in part because she does not agree with what her children would be taught (as far as I understand, her area is inclined to be quite liberal). However, she does *understand* why a gay parent would feel the way they do.

    I live in a very conservative area. Currently, this is not a problem for me, nor is it close to being one. I don’t mind if my kids learn about different types of families. There are. Their cousins live in a single parent family. *shrugs* They’re every bit a “real family” as much as we are.

    Personally, it’s very unpopular, but I believe that sex outside of God’s boundaries is sin. I realize that leaves some people feeling very unfulfilled (including people in difficult marriages or marriages where a partner is sick or disabled). This is a verse that means a lot to me, along those lines, from Matthew 19:

    “”For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother’s womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.”

    This verse, however, is for those who are following God and make this choice. I don’t feel like it’s appropriate for me to go visit my gay friend and tell them that gay sex is a sin and that they need to repent and become a eunuch for God. Jesus seemed to be talking about a person’s CHOICE, not a forced choice.

    When and if my gay loved one wants to follow the path of Christ (which will be a pretty big if, because the church has kind of burned his bridge on that front), and when and if *we* are on that journey together as compatriots, THEN there may come a time to talk about that kind of stuff. And it will be in the middle of a conversation where I am talking about the stuff I deal with, too, the stuff that I have to lay down and the stuff that seems to want to cling to me like sticky tac…a conversation about sin that is talking about BOTH of us. If our relationship ever gets to that point.

    Interestingly…
    I was recently in a relationship with a friend who was sexually active outside of marriage. It was kind of weird for me…I knew about this side activity…and she talked about it sometimes, casually, like nothing was wrong or weird about it…and yet at the same time, we would talk about Christ and following Him…

    It was hard for me, because those “big sins” are, like, no brainers to me…you just don’t go there. I guess partly because those aren’t my struggles (mine are the little things that are actually probably the biggest things of all in God’s eyes…ya know, stuff like, say, not loving, etc)…

    Anyways, there it was…this active choice being made by her to walk in a path outside of the boundaries we are given by our God…and yet claiming to be following our God. I didn’t know what to do.

    The old Molly would have found some way to mention it, assuming it was simply the right thing to do to bring it up and point out the sin. (I’m an extrovert. We aren’t shy). The Molly here and now knew that *I* am struggling with sin just as much: not sex outside of marriage, but with selfishness, grumpiness, fear-of-man in some areas of her life, etc… and what if my situation was like hers and there was this hot guy wanting to be with me…? Shoot, maybe I’d be struggling there, too! (It’s easy to cast stones when it’s not a problem area for me, no, but we sure like grace when dealing with a sin we personally struggle with).

    I decided to just trust in the voice of the Spirit, because I didn’t know what to do. And…I felt a specific “urge” not to say anything about her sex life but just to love her where she was at. I obeyed. I figure God knows the best timing and the best way.

    And in the same way, I appreciated her *not* giving me a lecture when I was visiting with her one day (actually, right when my world blew up—two days before all the details finally boomed in full) and I was SO angry and ran into her and she asked me about ___ and I ranted a bit and used some foul language about this loved one that had just hurt me so terribly.

    She just laughed. Kindly. She let me spew. She didn’t say anything. She knew that I was hurting and in pain. It wasn’t the time for a sermon. She hugged me. She called me later to see how I was doing. She didn’t rub my nose in my own vomit. She knew it was there, I knew it was there, what’s the point of shoving my face in it…

    I don’t claim to have any answers. So I think I’m going to stick with what Jae said. That was good stuff, friend! :) *waves*

  32. i don’t know about anywhere else, but in our public school the only “teaching” my kids had was general talk about the broad range of family types. i don’t think it was an attempt at indoctrination – just an acknowledgement of the fact that 5 kids in the kindergarten class came from gay families, many from single parent homes, some were foster kids, and a very few of them came from traditional 2 parent homes.

    i agree with a lot of what ambitiousoutsider is saying.

    ~ and btw, chewymom, i thought your descriptions of your relationships with people were beautiful!

  33. Posted by Scott M on November 18, 2008 at 8:21 pm

    Hmmm. I will echo something a few others have said. If anyone believes that they still live in a country where virtually any sort of sexual relationship between consenting adults, heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, plural, serial monogamy, whatever carries any sort of legal condemnation you’re living in a fantasy world. And frankly, every survey shows that American Christians are really no different. Evangelicals are more likely to divorce than the general population. No significant difference on adultery in any study I can recall. No particular difference in whether or not couples lived together before marriage. I’m not really convinced our country’s sexual mores were ever really shaped by a truly Christian sexual ethic. (Heck, I’m still learning what that is myself.) But it certainly isn’t now. And the church doesn’t really look any different.

    That’s reality.

    However, while I certainly agree with the metaphor that the Church is the hospital, we have to remember that we aren’t the doctor. Heck, we aren’t even the nurses or other staff. No. We’re patients as well. We radically love people as we learn to reshape our lives to conform to Christ. And we trust that he can heal them as well. (And here I’m still bringing to bear the idea of love as I expressed it in the earlier post.) If he is who we profess him to be, then he can. Who knows what that will look like.

    I’m reminded here of a story I heard a priest tell on some Orthodox podcast I was listened to at one point. A man was exploring Orthodoxy and talked to a priest about it and how to proceed. And the priest began to tell him that he would need to start by learning about Jesus, the Church, and the Sacraments. The man stopped him and told the priest, “I’m gay.” The priest said, “OK. But if you want to become Orthodox we’ll need to talk about Jesus, the Church, and the Sacraments.” The man interrupted again, “Didn’t you hear me? I said I’m gay!” The priest said, “Yes, I heard you. But if you want to become Orthodox we need to talk about Jesus, the Church, and the Sacraments.” That particular man did become Orthodox, and I believe the person telling the story said it was some years, but the man did become celibate.

    The point of the story (to me) is not that we should all be Orthodox. Or that someone who is gay and comes to Christ will always end up celibate. The point is that we must always talk of Jesus Christ, about the special community which forms his body, and the mysteries of God which heal us. And we must never mistake ourselves for the doctor or even the staff. We must never forget that we are also patients.

    If we can remember that and if we can remember how much our Lord loves us, if we can escape the poverty of our own love, I think the details of how we treat people in specific circumstances would work themselves out.

  34. Posted by Liesl on November 18, 2008 at 9:21 pm

    Beautifully said Scott. Great reminder that people need Jesus first and foremost. It reminds me of a missionary friend who was one of the first to go to Russia after the wall came down. He was apalled at fellow missionaries condemning starving women for having abortions and not seeing that they need to first have thier physcial needs met in the name of Jesus and have Jesus shown to them.
    I don’t think anyone thinks sexual sin should be illegal. I don’t.

    Molly, I love what you said in your last comments.

    I think if public schools can keep things factual – i.e. different family types that’s great. That doesn’t bother me at all. I’m afraid though from what is happening lately that that is not just what some of the gay agenda groups want.

  35. Wow! Amazing post. I haven’t had a chance to read all the comments yet but I think it just touched on so much I feel is beautiful about Christianity.
    About Jesus.
    I left the church for a few years when I was a teenager. Part of the reason (looking back) was that I just couldn’t see the Jesus message of the gospels being translated, or truly lived in many of the Christians I knew. I felt judgments and condemnations, instead of fellowship and friendship and a lifestyle being sold that seemed so contrary to the beauty of Jesus’s Sermon on the Mount.
    I find now, when I get confused about things like, theological arguments, denominational differences, Christian witnessing, seperation or involvment issues ….and the rest lol! Which I do regularly as I freely admit to not understanding it all anyway lol ;0)
    I catch myself and ask a question. Am I loving my neighbour first. Is my love for God and love for them bigger, greater, stronger and more important than anything else. Is it truly my first agenda, on which all my other agendas hang!
    We can rarely change another’s heart by arguing without loving first.
    (Even if we argue in the most eloquent way)
    But by loving them first instead of judging them first, embracing them for who they are at their place on the road, we may just start to change a heart.
    I only believe this to be true because this is how I found my way back to the church and Christian fellowship.
    Through the love, acceptance and friendship of a few people who truly lived the Christian message in a quiet yet powerful way. I am now begining to find my way home again.
    Again great post. And sorry for the book of a comment :0)

    Suzy.

  36. Posted by Yvonne on November 19, 2008 at 4:53 am

    This is a great debate. I haven’t had time to read all the comments. Maybe someone has already said this, but I’ve noticed that it’s the Holy Spirit’s job to convict people of sin. And He actually does it really well!! When I am salt and light where God has put me, when I show unconditional love to those around me (not just far-away homosexuals, but maybe even closeby… husband… kids…), when I refrain from making jugemental comments and accusations, but pray a lot for that person, it gives the Holy Spirit a chance to do his work, and convice sinners that they need to be different without me being in the way. Try it! I’ve seen it work!

  37. Posted by Becky on November 19, 2008 at 5:58 am

    ChewyMom -

    What you saidabout fat people isgrossly inappropriate and offensive. I stoppped reading once I got to that. What faulty logic you have!

    By the way, I’m 5′8″, 127lbs and run frequently. So, no, I don’t take it personally.

    I’m disgusted right now.

  38. Becky, I said that as someone who struggles with my weight. I am not classified as “obese,” but I AM classified as overweight. What offended you about what I said?

    Overweight people, with the rare exception of those who have a medical disorder, are overeating or under-exercising. Overeating in the Bible is called gluttony, and it is mentioned as sinful. It’s just that that is acceptable today. I live in Alabama, the 2nd heaviest state in America. Being overweight costs everyone tons of money in healthcare. And the reason I keep using that example is because it is the one of MY many sins that you know just by looking at me. The church is more concerned about what people do in their bedrooms than with what I put in my mouth. Why is it okay to turn away one person in sin but coddle the other? I truly did not mean to disgust or offend you, and I’d really like to know what I said that was so offensive.

  39. Becky,

    (Full disclosure here, I am chewymon’s husband and am obese). The point she was clearly making is that the church is VERY guilty of emphasizing certain sins while completely ignoring others. It is abject hypocrisy, and if I was gay and knew a little bit of the bible, (like it condemns gluttony and that Jesus loved sinners) then that hypocrisy would be very apparent to me if I just LOOKED at the churchgoers.

    As someone who is obese, I didn’t find the comment offensive at all. I know why I am fat, not enough exercise and too much eating. (I’m working on it though). Here is the story of my life, as described by the Apostle Paul.

    17-20But I need something more! For if I know the law but still can’t keep it, and if the power of sin within me keeps sabotaging my best intentions, I obviously need help! I realize that I don’t have what it takes. I can will it, but I can’t do it. I decide to do good, but I don’t really do it; I decide not to do bad, but then I do it anyway. My decisions, such as they are, don’t result in actions. Something has gone wrong deep within me and gets the better of me every time.

    21-23It happens so regularly that it’s predictable. The moment I decide to do good, sin is there to trip me up. I truly delight in God’s commands, but it’s pretty obvious that not all of me joins in that delight. Parts of me covertly rebel, and just when I least expect it, they take charge.

    24I’ve tried everything and nothing helps. I’m at the end of my rope. Is there no one who can do anything for me? Isn’t that the real question?

    25The answer, thank God, is that Jesus Christ can and does. He acted to set things right in this life of contradictions where I want to serve God with all my heart and mind, but am pulled by the influence of sin to do something totally different.

    Romans 7:17-25 from The Message

  40. Posted by bonnie on November 19, 2008 at 7:42 am

    So now we’re saying it’s sin to “under-exercise”! Great! I imagine why Becky got so upset is based on the over generalization of fat people, chewymom & Scott.
    I’m overweight, but do I eat greedily or excessively? No. I eat half of what my husband eats, and he’s a great weight. Do I get as much exercise as I’d like, no, it’s too much right now with four kids, being pregnant, and staying home with all the kids. I’m too exhausted emotionally or physically once everything settles down to get out and exercise. I imagine many people have similar stories. But the weight I gained with the pregnancies and my stay-at-home sedentary lifestyle leaves me overweight. We eat organic and mostly veggies…and I’m not greedy over those things! So to look at me sitting in a pew and unconsciously judge me as being gluttonous could very well be offensive to me.
    It’s not, because I think you are simply mistaken.

  41. I think part of the problem is not “under-exercise” or even overeating, but that we forget that all of us are sinners. We look at someone who is a homosexual and say “that’s a sin and you shouldn’t be here unless you change”, but we don’t say that about the people who gossip or say mean things or have any other “idols” in their lives (including food). So bonnie, when you say “So to look at me sitting in a pew and unconsciously judge me as being gluttonous could very well be offensive to me” I would think that’s exactly what a homosexual would feel like as well.

  42. Hence why probably the sin of gluttony stays on the silent side in the church- it is so hard to “see” sometimes. Some sexual sins on the other hand, are easy to see.
    I am thin but have been gluttonous at times, I just have the metabolism to “hide” my sin.
    Points well taken, but I still see the question about why some sins are overemphasized in church than others

    On another note, my best friend when I was in highschool had an abortion, and I didn’t say anything to her because I wanted to just “love” her. She did it a second time and I again stayed quiet.Years later I live with the horrible regret of not sharing anything with her. A few years ago, someone close to me left her husband for someone else. I lovingly shared I thought it was completely wrong but I still loved her. I never backed down on confronting her on it. I was the only one out of a large group of people who she would talk to. Her marriage was eventually restored (by God’s grace). I am glad I said something. Recently I confronted someone close on a severe drinking problem. Again in love, out of concern for health and wellness. They cut off contact with me and no longer talk to me. It’s been several months. In all of these situations I prayed first and thought I was being guided by the Holy Spirit. who knows? How to decide the appropriate time to share? And there’s no guarantee of a “good” outcome. Does that mean it was not right to share? I don’t know. Just food for thought.
    Thank you for everyone’s personal illustrations. It has encouraged me.

  43. Oh and yes, I think most churches condones gluttony and an inappropriate view of how to take care of our bodies (food and exercise-wise). I think almost any “event” at any of the churches I’ve been to has been centered around food (mostly cookies, donuts and sweets) and any suggestion for an “active” event for adults is frowned upon and discouraged. Whether a person is gluttonous or not, this is not a healthy way of doing things and when you top it off by seeing a lot of overweight people in church it definitely doesn’t help outsiders (and even insiders) see the church’s view on sin as relevant and appropriate to all types of sin.

  44. Posted by Dee on November 19, 2008 at 9:43 am

    There is another sin in the church that Christians overlook all the time, it’s materialism, which is idolatry.

    Or, coveting your neighbor’s house, car, clothes, vacations, etc., and doing whatever you can to keep up with them. Heck, you even here Christians bragging about their latest and greatest within the pews.

    We would be better salt to the world, if we loved Christ more, people more (good and bad) and stuff less. :)

  45. Posted by Deborah on November 19, 2008 at 9:59 am

    Molly,

    I largely agree with your reply except that (a) I haven’t known teaching on homosexuality to stay that precisely neutral and also find the age at which it is increasingly being introduced in public schools inappropriate. I speak as a very sensitive and very empathic person who I KNOW would have been confused and probably even drawn out of curiosity, family issues, a very deep lack of affirmation in my beauty as a woman, and a desire to understand everyone into wrong thinking if homosexuality were introduced to me in school as something acceptable to consider at a very young age (I don’t know how to explain this; I am certainly hetero, but I have since discovered that there is an abundance of homosexual stuff and other sexual perversions in my family history in addition to blocked memories of hetero incestual molestation which I think have enabled me to have peculiar “soul ties” to this area, which help me to commiserate with the homosexual’s struggles actually; for instance in college reading lesbian poetry had a profoundly haunting effect on me that took A LOT of prayer and picking through family things to deal with… I had no desires that way, but at the same time, I was unduly *tormented* by the images, etc. I was very thankful that I did not have to begin that journey as a very young and naive kid and wonder what would have happened if I did…. I know other heteros who can say the same, usually b/c of previously unknown family baggage, so I believe these exposures can really open unhealthy doors when we are too young to deal with it properly),

    (b) have not seen, even when it could be argued that a particular ref. to homosexuality is primarily a ref. to child molestation or temple prostitution, the validity in the overall line of reasoning developing there at all, and

    (c) have personally needed to confront friends in the situation your friend is in. This is an area I am still sorting out. I believe the Bible is very clear about confrontation, but where I agree with you is that I also think the timing may sometimes take quite a long while. For instance, I was talking to a homechurch pastor in Vermont last month. He pastors three little churches. In one of them, a lesbian coworker of the house hosts had begun to come. He told the hosts that unless she made a point of trying to mention her lifestyle and promote its validity, he did not feel he should confront her. Sure enough, some months later as she saw HETEROsexuals getting healed of their issues, she commented, “I’m starting to wonder if God can change me too.” Also, in their little booklet on homosexual ministry, healing ministers the MacNutt’s advocate rarely confronting. They point to an example where one lesbian came to the Lord but hadn’t dealt with that area yet. Her lover started attending church too, and only once both became Christians did they suddenly get the realization that they should and could change and needed to break their rel. I think there is tons of tricky territory though, and I think the solution will be different for different types and sizes of churches and fellowships. Two things that I think are abundantly evident are that demonstrated love must be there, and demonstrated power and willingness to change and heal and be vulnerable must be in the hetero lives. And even when not confronting, we cannot compromise the categorization of these activities in our own minds or teachings.

    Deb

  46. No time to comment much right now, but I read these this morning and thought they fit perfectly in this post, so wanted to share:

    http://kingdomgrace.wordpress.com/2008/11/10/a-wake-up-call-part-1/

    http://kingdomgrace.wordpress.com/2008/11/11/a-wake-up-call-part-2/

  47. Posted by Deborah on November 19, 2008 at 10:13 am

    p.s.–What I am trying to say in point (a) is that with my very “responsible” upbringing too, I would have wrestled with something a lot more and in different ways if actually taught about it by the system (and I did go to public school). I really believe parental teaching of these topics and well-guided life exposure hits a different place in a child than school introduction.

  48. Posted by Liesl on November 19, 2008 at 10:40 am

    Um, I’m with Bonnie and Becky – underexercising is a sin?? You can’t go with that logic. My skinniest friends don’t even exercise, but you say they must be sinning, Oh no! And some of my overweight friends are gym regulars – Oh no they must be gorging themselves – what sinners! What hypocrisy! Yes, gluttony is a sin, but making assumptions and blanket judgements on people is absurd. Cristi I think your missing the point.

    Yes, we’re all sinners. But I’m a bible following Christian and in Corinthians the only sinners Paul says that we should disassociate with is those of sexual orientation who insist on continuing in their sin but still want to be part of the church. That’s not to say we don’t welcome all types of sinners. But I do take it that God differientiates sin. If we disassociated all people then no one would be part of the church. Grace covers all sins and I’m sure there will be many gay-oriented people in Heaven who repented and probably many non-gay pew-sitting secret sinners not in Heaven. Only God can judge the heart.

    Homosexuals, fornicators, adulterers, are all free to go about their lives but I should be free to teach my children that certain things are sin along with greed, envy, lying, gluttony, etc. I’m finding some of this thread almost hinting that Christians should just shut up and not teach against homosexual sins, only other sins.

    By the way, I must lead a sheltered life in a metropolitan bible belt because all the churches I know of have lots of physical fellowship activities and don’t “frown upon” active events.

  49. i am deeply appreciative of your contribution to this discussion, Deborah, and i am listening intently. i find myself somewhere in the middle in these discussions….not in line with the status quo approach of the church and yet sure we must be very careful with our children…

    one thing i am sure of: we need to dump our timelines about healing and people getting right with the Lord. these situations are increasingly complicated and will take a long, long time to sort out for individuals. i’m confident that the Lord has the patience and time for it all though and that we should welcome each other into the body of Christ with open arms and a long-term commitment to pursuing holiness together.

  50. liesl,

    I’m finding some of this thread almost hinting that Christians should just shut up and not teach against homosexual sins, only other sins.

    i don’t see that – just the desire to have the scales equally balanced: treat sexual sin with the same approach as other sins.

    i hear people saying that they wouldn’t have a problem continuing in fellowship with a brother who cheats on his taxes or declares bankruptcy due to covetous over-spending…so why the double standard for a few specific sexual sins?

  51. Posted by JudyM on November 19, 2008 at 11:46 am

    1Corithians 5:9-13

    I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexual immoral people.

    Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world.

    But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner- not even to eat with such a person.

    For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside?

    But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away form yourselves the evil person.”

    is this the scripture referred to?

  52. Posted by Deborah on November 19, 2008 at 12:25 pm

    tonia, so glad it is a help to you, and thanks for telling me so. that was a fair amount of self-disclosure, after all. blessings, deb

  53. Okay, this won’t be popular, but let me say something about “underexercising” since I brought it up, and apparently it hit a raw nerve with some. Laziness is mentioned many times in the Bible. Nowhere does it say that if we don’t run 5 miles a day, or maintain an active gym membership we are bound for hell. But often we are less active than we should be because we would rather (preaching to myself here!) sit in our warm house and (ahem) type comments on Molly’s blog than go out and run a mile.

    Many of the “sins” or struggles we have mentioned are gray areas – sometimes sin, sometimes not. For example, my father became overweight in the last 10 years of his life. His prostate cancer had metastasized to his spine, and it was too painful for him to do much more than sit in his recliner. Nobody would confront him and say he was in sin because his weight was creeping up! BUT I would argue that there’s a sense in which his weight gain WAS a result of sin. When sin and death entered the world, a whole lot got messed up. Clogged arteries, excess fat on our bodies, sexual urges outside the bounds of marriage, etc. – they’re ALL a reflection that this world is just not how it is supposed to be. Sometimes it is because WE are in sin, and sometimes it is a result of our sinful world having an effect on us.

    I did not mean to just pick on those who are overweight. As I said before, that is MY struggle, so I was trying to personalize this with an area that is mine, and I believe many people’s struggle. But here’s another little food for thought on this subject, using weight as an example (again–sorry). Often people are overweight because of a slow metabolism or heredity or a health problem. Try to think of this from the skinny-lesbian perspective, ok? How does that sound any different to them than their argument that they are wired this way, that it was present from as long ago as they can remember, that it is how their brain was made to function? The reasoning behind the issue sound eerily similar.

    I don’t know what the answer is. I am not exactly sure WHAT I would do as a pastor or elder in a church with a professing Christian who was practicing sexual sin. I have never been in a church in my adult life that would just let them join. But I guess that just sits wrong with me now, because EVERY ONE of us is living in sin. Sure, I may be TRYING to overcome overeating, but when I make the choice to sit down with a very large plate of brown rice and veggie stir fry, or to keep “straightening the edges” on the pan of brownies, I am actively choosing to sin. If I, knowing I NEED to be active because I need to get this excess weight off of me, choose to hit the snooze button even though I am perfect well-rested, I am choosing sin. We all do it with our own personal issues, don’t we?

    The beauty of the gospel is that Jesus is sufficient. WHEN we choose food or sex outside of God’s plan, or buying things we don’t need, or anger, we are trying to fill a void with less than what will truly fill it. I’m not sure that keeping the homosexual person away from or out of the church is going to help them understand what it is that will REALLY fill that deep need for love/sex from a same-sex partner. I’m not even sure that “confronting” will do that. They have got to get to a place of realizing that their deep longings are NOT being met in the way they had hoped and being shown Jesus, who can fill those needs. I imagine that after that, it is a long road to recovery, filled with a million screw-ups. Just like mine is filled with a million instances of consuming more calories than I am burning….

  54. I actually think this is turning into the same issue that we all discussed in the last thread. Molly brought up the issue of modernity/postmodernity and how often we are all thinking differently because of this black and white vs. gray world.

    I really agree with you, chewymom. I, too, struggle with the sin of gluttony. And nobody in the church ever says anything about it. And, something else I hear on this thread is the idea that we should confront people who have sex outside marriage or have homosexual sex. I hear that, but then I wonder – are we asking people about their marital sex lives? Are we checking to make sure the marriages in our faith community are healthy?

    I agree that as people of faith, we have lost the ability to call sin what it is. But the problem I personally have seen in churches is that they point the finger out – saying other people are in sin. But the world doesn’t see that same church point the finger in and discuss how they are sinning. Again, Jesus loved the sinners – it was the Pharisees that he got angry with. We should learn from this.

    We all sin. That is true. And yes, we do need to lovingly confront people on their sinfulness – but when the Spirit leads us to deal with it. Our job is not to yell from the rooftops, but to love. The context of love is essential in the Bible. Love God, love your neighbor. I think if we truly love people, then the truth will pour forth from our lives.

    Hopefully I make some sense.

  55. Posted by Deborah on November 19, 2008 at 1:33 pm

    Alaina, It is so true that more has to be done to make marriages healthy. I see an epidemic of not dealing with the sin within marriages, and I am in so much pain watching people self-destruct. When I mentioned the pastor in Vermont and the folks who were getting healed and changed with the resultant dawning on the lesbian woman that she too might change, many of those changes were in marriages not in people living the supposedly more immoral lives on the side. This is absolutely key. And the argument could be made, “Why should the homosexual want to leave their lifestyle for another severely unhealthy notion of gender/gender roles/relational dynamics?” if those are what are being displayed by the church. This is where things such as a revolution in respect for women and their diversity of callings and personalities and roles within marriage is SO crucial. While the homosexual who comes to Christ also needs to get over the hypocrisy that will always be there from some to be willing to face their own issues, we desparately need to be modeling something better overall.

  56. Several random thoughts came to mind as I’ve been reading through the comments.

    1. There is a proper time and place for confrontation of sin, but it should ALWAYS begin with me. If and when it proceeds further, it should be done in a spirit of meekness and love, i.e. for the sole benefit of the soul of the one confronted. Gal. 6:1-4

    2. “It’s not about perfection, but rather about direction.”

    3. Jerry Bridges has written an excellent book that was extremely convicting and helpful to this too- often- Pharisee-acting-sinner (i.e. yours truly). It is called “Respectable Sins: Confronting the sins we tolerate.” I would highly recommend it to all.

  57. I think its odd that people are getting their panties in a wad over fattism.

    Note: I think overweight people get discriminated against and that is wrong,

    ….but, the point is that sin is sin and gay-ness isn’t some second unforgivible sin or anything.

    I think if you’re oriented in the straight direction, you can become desensitized toward the perspective of the gay person and they become, “them,” which is one step closer to not treating them as “Us,” and, since they haven’t committed the unforgivible sin and they *are* created in the image of God, they are, “US”, indeed, beloved by God.

    I think a good percentage of the church universal is missing this point.

  58. Chewymom, the “straightening the edges on the pan of brownies” comment– priceless. That is me! Mild OCD combined with a terrible sweet tooth . . . oh yes, gluttony has the potential to be a very significant sin in my life.

    And you’re right, it’s NOT a sin that people tend to confront us about. I happen to have a genetic predisposition to weight gain, but that doesn’t mean I shouldn’t fight it! My diet/exercise plan has been something I have worked on largely alone– I mean, try telling somebody you want an accountability partner for weight loss, lol! My sister has been the biggest help because we’re going through this together; she is working on a similar diet/exercise plan, but because she’s one of those people who CAN “hide” that gluttony (her metabolism is unreal, it’s so efficient) it’s even more of a struggle for her, because people don’t see that unhealthiness in her life and they ask why she would want to lose weight; they don’t understand it’s the lifestyle itself she wants to lose, not those few extra pounds.

    Honestly, I think we’ve become so accustomed to indulging ourselves in various ways that we’re inclined to just laugh when we can’t resist that extra brownie; we’ll even joke about it with friends as we take the third helping, the second dessert– “oh look at me, I can’t stop!” And they laugh too. But would we do the same if we were, say, viewing porn on the computer? Laugh with each other and shake our heads and say “well, maybe I’ll quit tomorrow, but look at me! I just can’t stop!”

    We don’t treat all sins equally. Personally I know I do still react much more strongly when I hear of sins that hurt others (adultery, theft) than I do when I hear of “personal” sins (gluttony, greed) and I wonder if that’s a cultural thing or something like that . . . if we’re still outlawing the sins that trespass against others, but we have sort of become numbed to our trespasses against God.

    Anyway, yes, willpower (or lack thereof) is why I rarely bring sweets into the house these days– deliver us from temptation, right?!

  59. (I couldn’t find a way to work it into that comment but I do feel the need to point it out anyway– being overweight is, in and of itself, not a sin. After all, there are thyroid conditions, there is post-pregnancy weight, and other reasons that aren’t sinful. It’s just that many of the other things that do cause us to gain weight, gluttony and laziness being among them, are sins)

  60. Posted by Left Right Out on November 19, 2008 at 3:47 pm

    Jumping in with some random thoughts (reading 56 theologically deep comments in a row makes my brain spin!)

    – Because usury is mentioned in the post, I thought some might find interesting an older Slacktivist post about homosexuality and usury and Biblical interpretation: http://tinyurl.com/5m7u92

    – I struggle with the whole “condoning” thing too. Out of all my siblings and maternal cousins, most of whom went to church a lot more regularly than I did when they were at home, I am the *only* one who has not have sex outside of marriage* This was very purposeful on our part, because I think sex outside of marriage is a sin. There were times when I wondered about confronting someone in my family but when I prayed about it I didn’t feel it was the right time. There was one time when I did confront someone about it with a statement, not a question, and learned something I hadn’t known — I think God did that confrontation thing for *my* benefit, not hers!

    – I have had people confront me about various sins they thought I was committing, and if they didn’t have a previous relationship with me, they got a stiff smile and a “thank you for your opinion on my personal life.” If they had a relationship with me, we generally were able to talk it out, and the relationship was stronger, no matter the outcome of the convo.

    – 99.9% of gays and lesbians are going to know it already if you consider their relationships to be sinful. If God leads them to try to change or be celibate then the *relationship* with you will be the way God works through you, because you have already shown you love them and are interested in *them,* not just in them changing.** I’ve found this to be mostly true for “sin” in general

    *marriage: my wife and I promising before God and witnesses to love each other forever, and usual wedding vow stuff. Coming up on our fourth anniversary now.

    **I’m not trying to give instructions on how to “change” GLBTQ people (I think it’s impossible most of the time anyway), but I believe that a) people have relationships for all kinds of reasons, sometimes not with ppl of their primary orientation and b) some gay people are called to be celibate just as some straight people are.

  61. [My day is really full today, but I keep popping in to read for a quick second...there sure are some great comments here....thanks for giving me something to muse about all day long!]. :)

  62. [My day is really full today, but I keep popping in to read for a quick second...there sure are some great comments here....thanks for giving me things to muse about all day long!]. :)

  63. Posted by Becky on November 19, 2008 at 5:26 pm

    Hi Chewymom – thanks for responding so kindly. The sentence that bothered me so much is this one:

    The place I hear that most often seems to be out of the lips of fat people…

    I just think that we should always strive to deal with people’s philosophies and beliefs rather than make (often invalid) associations between their beliefs and their physical appearnce.

    I agree entirely that gluttony is a sin that we completely ignore in the evangelical community. Furthermore, i believe that naturally thin people can be far, far more guilty of this sin than some naturally heavy people. I have no problem maintaining a healthy weight, but that doesn’t give me any excuse to be out-of-control in my eating or to deal with sinful desires, or anxiety, or to gain solace through food. All of those things make up the sin of gluttony and thin people can be just as guilty of that as heavy people.

    So, all in all, I still find any statement associating ideas with someone’s physical appearance to be offensive and just bound to be wrong more often than not. However, i agree entirely with your larger point which is that those of us who have not committed a sin – ANY sin – should be the first to throw a stone.

  64. Posted by Becky on November 19, 2008 at 5:27 pm

    oops, i didn’t put in the end italic tag there.

    the quote from chewymom was:

    The place I hear that most often seems to be out of the lips of fat people.

  65. Hey Becky, that was an insensitive way for me to word that sentence. Unfortunately, I don’t reread and edit my comments like I do my own blog posts. (Ideally.) I guess living in Alabama I literally am surrounded by way more overweight people than thin ones, so if I hear judgment about ANYTHING it is likely to from overweight people. I probably could have made the same statement about almost anything. Anyway, thanks for pointing out my insensitive way of wording that, Becky.

  66. Posted by wysiwyg on November 19, 2008 at 6:05 pm

    OK not to get side tracked with a little bible interpretation but Becky brings up the “first to throw a stone” story. Everyone knows it right? Jesus, sand, adulterer etc.. Well, all of her accusers were not upholding the law. Both the male and female were to be stoned and the crime needed to be witnessed by 2 or 3 people. They were just trying to trap Jesus so they could accuse Him of not following the law of Moses and He knew it. They were all with sin because they were wrongly accusing her without following proper procedures. None of them, according to the law, were able to throw a stone because the “court procedure” was not done properly. Jesus was just upholding the law.
    This said just to clarify that I don’t think Jesus means for no one to ever, ever, ever judge. There are times to hold up God’s righteousness.
    Here’s a verse to balance: Take the beam out of your own eye FIRST, so that you CAN then clear the speck in your brother’s eye.
    Everything is with balance- that’s what the Holy Spirit is for.

  67. Posted by Becky on November 19, 2008 at 7:26 pm

    Chewymom, again, thanks for your graciousness. I thought of proverbs 15:1 both times I read your response – “A gentle answer turns away wrath but a harsh word stirs up anger.” I apologize for my harsh words.

    wysiwyg – agree completely. i guess it was my turn not to be careful with my words/points.

  68. Posted by Liesl on November 19, 2008 at 9:08 pm

    Thanks chewymom too for clarifying the fat comment. If we subtitute the word gluttonous for fat, it makes perfect sense.

    I will say though that the sin of lazyness in the Bible is not about excercise. It’s about idleness – not doing productive work. I’ve seen people who excercise everyday practcally but don’t commit to jobs and provide for their families or after excercising spend the day recklessly…..just some thoughts.

  69. My family is peopled with skinny members, some of us eat far more than we need but have a metabolism such that it will adjust to the calories put into the system.

    One does not need five slices of an extra large pizza no matter what. Nor do they need a 12 inch long cheesesteak.

    But if you’re 6′2″ and 175 no one judges you. But you can be a glutton.

    I agree that gluttony and obesity are two discrete states of being. Obesity is extremely complex. I took a Biopsych class last year and my professor is a brilliant woman that has studied appetite and satiety for 30 years and is *still* studying those issues. It is much more complex than you might imagine.

    But back to the subject at hand; we, as Christians are obligated to unbelievers in two ways, we are called to love and we’re called to share the Gospel.

    What the majority of gays have experienced from Christians is condemnation and not-love. If we, as individuals, could *love* gay people, have dinner with them, invite them over to the house, just be nice, that would be a breath of fresh air, and, who knows, you might get to the second obligation eventually.

  70. Posted by bonnie on November 20, 2008 at 7:16 am

    Left Right Out said, “you have already shown you love them and are interested in *them,* not just in them changing.”

    This is a great way of putting it. I’m so tired of the Evangelical way of getting to know you’re neighbors so you can “save” them. Always an agenda. Always an *obligation* rather than a real desire to get to know someone. Who wants to be on the receiving side of that?

  71. Posted by Becky on November 20, 2008 at 11:09 am

    I do have another thought on this topic and most Christians I know think it’s awfully radical, but here goes:

    I think a LOT of our inability to function correctly as a church is because, as a community, we’re withdrawing from the public schools. Think about all the *natural* ways to meet non-believers, to speak the truth, to be different both in lifestyle but also in showing greater kindness to others. Think about the opportunites to be seen as weak but saved.

    The “church” is not a place and the problem is not *really* what’s going on in the pews. The problem is that as a community of followers of Christ, which is what the “church” truly is comprised of, we’ve basically withdrawn from teh world. Our contact is through programs or evangelism, or few and far between chance encounters.

    With chidlren in teh public schools most of these questions are less theoretical and much more practical. No, I will not permit y chidl to take a sex ed class where they practice putting condoms on cucumbers. We will be the differnt family in that way. But, yes, I will show extra kindness and support to her fiend that gets pregnant. The tension between loving and calling sin sin is actually, in some ways, much easier to arrive at when it is actually being LIVED.

    With that said, I FULLY support every parent’s choice to make the right decision for each child’s education every year. I think homeschooling is a fabulous option that I actually forsee myself using for a time with the children we’re adopting. I think Christian schools are great and one son is there for a very formative year. BUT, that as a group we have condemned adn withdrawn from teh public schools I think has only served to allow “the church” to grow farther and farther ingrown.

    Lay it on me :-)

  72. http://www.theroot.com/id/48879
    Interesting article a reader sent me on Obama’s faith-based politics.

    Speaking of interesting, so has been this conversation. :) Thanks, all, for making it good and thought-provoking, as always. Ahhh. I like you guys so much.

    Left Right Out, I’ve missed you. Something happened, apparently, that I didn’t know about? Things okay? Do you still have your blog? (I just googled it but couldn’t find it). Anything we can do?

    On sin, it is good to pursue God. Like Paul says in Galatians, if we are walkign in the Spirit, we, uh, won’t be sinning. Seems to me that walking in God’s Spirit is a healthier thing to focus on than focusing on “not sinning.” And I think if we are focusing on walking in the Spirit *together*, instead of monitering-our-friends-sin-levels, it’s a healthier thing too.

    All in balance, of course…there’s a time to call attention to things…but me thinks the hyper-focus on sin in some conservative circles, especially the hypocritical focus on a *few* sins to the exclusion/denial of others, is NOT the way to go about denonstrating what following Christ means. In fact, I’d go even farther and say that I think that kind of mindset shows that we…don’t get it.

    Off to work on a paper about the life of Abraham Maslow… I have a hierarchy of need, you know, myself. 1. Chocolate. 2. Coffee. 3. Sleep.

    And NONE of my needs are currently being met, so no WONDER I’m having such a hard time being disciplined enough to write this paper! :)

  73. Posted by Emily on November 20, 2008 at 11:15 am

    But isn’t the whole purpose of a Christian’s life to share the Gospel, the news that Jesus died and rose to pay for the sins of all people? While I agree that we don’t need to be walking around wearing real or figurative sandwich boards that say “REPENT!” on them, I do think that it’s wrong to be content to just “get to know” unbelievers. It’s not about merely establishing pleasant earthly relationships — it’s about being a witness to bring others to heaven. I don’t think you need to talk about Jesus every moment that you’re together, but it is important to be demonstrating that you are different in how you live your life as well as in the words you speak – and don’t speak.

    Living a homosexual life is different from other sins because it is so … purposeful. You don’t “accidentally” move in with someone of the opposite gender, in the same way that people might “accidentally” sleep together. It’s one thing to be tempted into a homosexual liason for one night or a short period of time, but it’s a different thing to buy into that lifestyle permanently. I think that distinction needs to be acknowledged. Another distinction is whether the person claims to be a Christian and yet is a practicing homosexual. That is different from a person who claims to be a Christian but is struggling with the temptation towards homosexuality.

    It’s not that homosexuality is a “worse” sin (because we know that all sins are equal in the sight of God), but living a homosexual life, just like ANY two people living together outside of marriage, is a purposeful choice. Those are sins of intent, not of passion. They must be dealt with differently.

    However, one also must always keep in mind the big picture. I have a friend who’s been living with a guy for years, and their daughter is one of my daughter’s best friends. I could encourage my friend to marry her guy, which would end her “living in sin,” but if she’s still not a Christian, would she be any closer to heaven? No. So my goal with her is to share Christ with her when the opportunity presents itself naturally (and I pray every time I see her that an opportunity WILL present itself and that I won’t be too chicken to let it pass me by), and trust that if/when she becomes a Christian, that the rest of her life will them conform to her faith.

    In the same way, individual sins, whether homosexuality, living together, abortion, even lying, laziness, greed — all of these individual sins are symptoms of the greater presence of Sin in our lives. And when people don’t have Jesus and the gospel at the forefront of their hearts, everything else in their lives gets mixed up.

    Rather than confronting people with sin, we need to be reminding them of the Gospel. Pastors need to spend more time preaching that Gospel from their pulpits every Sunday, and less time telling people specifically how to live their Christian lives. Preach the Gospel, point people to the Word, and let the Holy Spirit work in their hearts to produce fruits of faith. Stop giving people sermons about “7 Steps to a Better Walk With Christ!” and instead remind people on what their faith is founded.

    When the Gospel is not preached regularly, you end up with people either thinking that they are better than everyone else (Pharisees) and being judgemental of how other Christians are (or aren’t) leading their lives, or Christians end up in despair because they recognize their inability to live the Christian life they want to lead. Neither is good.

    Christians need to hear every week that they are sinners and that they are forgiven thanks to Jesus’ death and resurrection. And if someone thinks, “I already know that – tell me specifically what I need to do and how I need to live to be a good Christian,” then Satan’s got you right where he wants you, looking to yourself, not to Christ.

    So, while there may be times when believers need to be confronted with their sin, I believe there are many, many more times when believers (and unbelievers!) need to be reminded of the Gospel, encouraged to let it take root in their lives, which will then enable them to make Christ-like decisions about how to live their lives.

    ~ Emily

  74. Emily,

    I don’t so much agree with the first part of your comment about “purposefulness” of the homosexual’s life. I don’t see that as being any different form the college student shacking up with his girlfriend or the married guy having an illicit affair. It’s all purposeful, where an attempt is being made to satisfy some deeply felt need, whether its lust or intimacy or companionship or . I’m not saying it’s not sin, just that its not substantially different from other (hetero) sins. If there is a difference, it might be this, the hetero sinner’s basic orientation (i.e. attraction to the opposite sex) is one we’re fundamentally comfortable with, whereas with the homosexual’s orientation, were not. The other way in which the homosexual’s lifestyle is not purposeful is that the overwhelming majority of gay men would tell you that they were born with their orientation, that they have never been sexually attracted to the opposite sex.

    I loved the last part of your comment wherein you emphasize the part thats often missing from church. Namely, the preaching and living of the gospel. If we could do that right and cut off self-righteousness at the knees, then Christians might actually learn how to love sinners in such a way that they were attracted to Jesus.

    Scott

  75. the sentence above was munges and should have read

    It’s all purposeful, where an attempt is being made to satisfy some deeply felt need, whether its lust or intimacy or companionship or ^pick your idol^.

  76. I don’t see how someone being gay is purposeful. It’s pretty much genetic.

    I’m a girl on purpose.

    Hmmm????? No, I got 2 X chromosomes, so I’m a girl.

    And gayness as the deliberate on purpose sin?

    Huh?

    The womanizer? The rapist? The serial killer? The fellow that embezells (sp) Millions and millions? The schmucks that bailed out of these failed banks and left this country with a mess? Ted Stevens? Tricky Dick Nixon? Freaking Hitler? And the poor otherly oriented person gets to feel all special as the deliberate sinner?

  77. Posted by bonnie on November 20, 2008 at 2:55 pm

    Emily, I’m not sure what the purpose of going to church every Sunday to hear the same message again and again would be. Of course, at this point in my life I don’t see any purpose in going to a Sunday morning event at all. Why would we need the gospel preached to us every week? Are we dumb enough to forget the six days in between? I don’t get it.

    The purpose of the Christian is to love. Love God first, then others. God is love, so if we’re sharing love, we’re sharing God. Cheesy, elusive, whatever, but I’ve got to stop living life with this agenda to get people saved. I’m not convinced that our purpose as Christians is to “witness others into Heaven.”

  78. Posted by Liesl on November 20, 2008 at 5:50 pm

    I totally get what Emily was saying about “on purpose”. I was actually thinking about this last night and reading up on sin in my bible commentary which put this way:

    “The Bible refers to sin by a variety of Hebrew and Greek words. This is partly because sin may appear in many forms, from deliberate wrongdoing and moral evil to accidental failure through weakness or ignorance.”

    I think it has to do with the heart and repentance. Emily didn’t only classify homosexuality as on purpose. It’s like Scott said alot of sin is on purpose – if I have an affair, if any two people are sexually active outside of marrage, someone who robs a bank. I don’t buy into it that all gay people are genetically different. Yes, there are some and I believe that is a real struggle that I don’t even claim to have the answers for. However, don’t many have their sins they struggle with? God will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you can bear. So while I really wanted to have sex before marriage, I purposefully chose not too. I’d completely understand a gay persons temptation and even sin out of weakness, but I agree with Emily, if they choose to be a sexually active homosexual then it’s the same as two single people “shacking up” or a gluttonous person planning to eat 8,000 calories a day but not the same as someone who cuts his finger and a curse word slips out or someone who finds themselves envious of someone and is convicted of it and repents…….

    Spreading the gospel – I think this goes back to the original email to Molly and how do we as Christians reconcile the great commandment to go into the nations and spread the gospel yet Jesus also said don’t cast your pearls before swine (those that reject Christ and the gospel).

  79. Posted by ambitiousoutsider on November 20, 2008 at 7:00 pm

    So while I really wanted to have sex before marriage, I purposefully chose not too.

    C’mon, Liesl. However old you were when you got married, it’s in no way comparable to a lifetime.

    -maura

  80. Popping in for a second…

    Maura,

    I think you just hit on a great point. For those who say that homosexual sex is sin, we’re basically telling people-who’s-brains-are-wired-for-same-sex-attraction that they have to be celebate for their entire life. We are saying that their sexual drive will NEVER be able to be satisfied. That they are going to have to live with a certain level (high, low, or middle, depending on their personal drive) of sexual frustration for their entire lives, but not just sexual frustration, but also relational frustration (if we count the drive to find a “mate” that most humans share).

    I think it’s really important for us to realize what it is we are saying. Most of us will have no clue what it is we are saying, in other words, because we are telling others that they will have to do something that we ourselves do not have to do, nor can even concieve of.

    That’s not to say that it’s necessarily wrong to say any of that. Just that I think we’d have a lot more compassion when talking about it and thinking about it, if we had half a clue what it is we’re actually saying. But the fact is that in saying it, it doesn’t hurt *us.* And we humans are notorious for not really thinking a thing through, not being able to step into someone else’s shoes, if it doesn’t have to do with *us.*

  81. Posted by Emily on November 20, 2008 at 11:58 pm

    Sorry I haven’t been able to respond more quickly. I have limited computer time.

    The topic of homosexuality has been on my mind a lot lately. As a Confessional Lutheran living in the shadow of San Francisco, homosexuality is on my radar frequently. The passage of Prop 8 has only made it an even bigger topic. The whole post-Prop 8 situation makes me feel so incredibly sad, and I wish I could convince the people who are against Prop 8 that my vote in favor of Prop 8 was not inspired by hate. (Sigh.)

    I’m married to a pastor who weekly tranlates his sermon text from the original Greek or Hebrew languages. He informs me that there’s no other accurate way to interpret the Bible except to say that homosexuality, in any form, is condemned as a sin. Okay, then. Sin it is. But, what then do we as Christians say to people who feel that they were born that way?

    The simplest answer might perhaps be this: we accept their position that they were born that way. We are all born sinful, we know that. Maybe people ARE born with a genetic predisposition to be gay. Perhaps that feeling of being gay was caused by abuse or a bad home environment or some other factor. Who knows? Regardless of the reasons why, what it really comes down to is that a person feels that they are gay. So, where does a Christian who wants to demonstrate compassion go from there?

    First of all, homosexuality is a sin like any other. It’s not a bigger or lesser sin, but neither should people be treated differently because they are gay. Or, to put it another way, just because a person is gay doesn’t mean that they get a free pass to ignore what the Bible says. They don’t. None of us do, no matter what our sin. A hallmark of the Christian life is the struggle with sin. Just because you’re gay doesn’t mean you have a “get out of living-a-moral-life free” card.

    HOWEVER, we do need to show compassion for people who are dealing with a temptation to live a gay lifestyle, just like we deal compassionately with people involved in any other kind of sin. We must always “speak the truth – in love.” Yelling at someone that because they’re gay they’re going to hell is certainly not speaking in love, but neither is it speaking to truth to tell someone that God says it’s okay that they continue in a gay lifestyle.

    I agree with Molly when she says that those of us who are heterosexual cannot understand what living with homosexual yearnings is like. I totally agree. At the same time, we all have our crosses to bear. All of our crosses are different, but we have the Lord’s promise that he will never tempt us beyond what we can bear. We Christians must believe that.

    It’s helpful also to remember that today’s political climate has a lot to do with homosexuality as well, and we Christians are not immune to the culture around us. Homosexuality is promoted as normal all over the TV and media like never before in the world’s history. If you want to know more about the politics behind the homosexual agenda, read the book “Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth” by Jeffrey Satinover, M.D. It does a good job at showing the reader how the “free love” movement of the 60’s made radical changes in how Americans view homosexuality. Remember, too, that homosexuality was a psychological disorder listed on the DSM until the late 1960s.

    Frankly, I wish homosexuality were still listed on the DSM so that people who are gay could get professional help. Consider this: if I have my facts straight, I believe there is a gene that predisposes a person to alcoholism, but we don’t say, “Oh, well, you were born that way, so drink up!” No, we offer counseling, support groups, and other various kinds of help so that people can overcome their alcoholism. I wish the same kind of help was available for people who struggle with homosexuality. Instead, today’s world just labels it “normal,” and doesn’t see any need to change it. I think that is so incredibly sad, because I know there’s a lot of really depressed gays out there. I used to sing with the San Francisco Symphony Chorus, and I have friends in the professional music world. They are a LOT of gay people out there who wish they weren’t gay, but instead of there being resources to help them, they are told that they’re normal and to be proud of who they are. But they know there’s something wrong with them! They KNOW it – but where can they go for help?

    I personally have a lot of compassion for homosexuals. My mother was horribly abused as a child, and when she finally started seeing a Christian psychologist later in her life, her psychologist said that it was amazing that my mother wasn’t a lesbian after all she had gone through. I’ve never forgotten that, and I never will. I think of my mother’s story every time I hear of people who are gay, and it fills me with compassion and a desire to help.

    I know that there’s a lot of crap out there that happens to people, and it’s rarely their fault. But it affects them, affects them deeply, and it changes them in ways we “straight people” can’t possibly understand. We DO need to be as compassionate as possible with people struggling with homosexuality. We cannot condone their sin, we can NEVER condone sin, but we must recognize the huge internal struggle going on inside of them, and we must be willing to help them fight temptation.

    ~ Emily

  82. Posted by Emily on November 21, 2008 at 12:06 am

    Bonnie,

    If our purpose as Christians is not to “witness other people into heaven,” then what IS our purpose as Christians? What sets us apart from other religions? Why bother talking about the cross at all?

    Remember the apostle Paul’s words: “I resolved to know nothing when I was with you except Christ and him crucified.” It’s ALL about the cross. That’s what Christianity centers around. If one doesn’t hold tightly to that truth with every ounce of their being, then Satan has got a death grip on one’s faith.

    If you don’t have your focus on the gospel, what DO you focus on? What reason IS there to love without the gospel? “We love because he first loved us.” How can we have any reason to love others without being weekly, if not daily, reminded of the love God showed for us by dying on the cross to pay the entire penalty for our sins?

    Sorry to hear that you’re in a church that isn’t promoting the gospel. Perhaps you need to find a new church?

    ~ Emily

  83. Molly, like I said in an earlier comment it’s been a tough few years — have done lots of reading but very little writing. I am now at http://left-right-out-blog.blogspot.com/ — I lost my password to the old one ::blush::

    And please tell me if I’m hijacking your blog!

    Liesl wrote… I don’t buy into it that all gay people are genetically different. Yes, there are some and I believe that is a real struggle that I don’t even claim to have the answers for. However, don’t many have their sins they struggle with? God will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you can bear. So while I really wanted to have sex before marriage, I purposefully chose not too.

    Just so you know where I’m coming from, I too purposefully chose not to have sex outside of my marriage, and in fact have never even held hands with someone other than my wife. My sexual mores are actually quite conservative.

    Then Molly wrote…

    We are saying that their sexual drive will NEVER be able to be satisfied. That they are going to have to live with a certain level (high, low, or middle, depending on their personal drive) of sexual frustration for their entire lives, but not just sexual frustration, but also relational frustration (if we count the drive to find a “mate” that most humans share).

    I think Molly has hit one of the nails on the head, Liesl — when we say “sexual orientation” it really should mean romantic-intimacy/sexual orientation. I think the bond between spouses should ideally be an absolutely unique one and it shouldn’t be just the sex that makes it that way.

    When you talk about homosexuality are you just talking about physical contact? Because it seems to me that if C and I stopped making love tomorrow and never did again, then we would still be in a “homosexual” relationship because we are still each other’s primary people in life. We have a romantic intimacy with each other that we have with no one else and have vowed *never* to have with anyone else as long as we both live. Our love for each other and our relationship cannot be reduced to the physical component. I don’t want to give that up, mind you, but if I had to it would be a lot less painful then giving up other things such as, say, raising our child together, building our home together, etc.

    So when you ask gay people to be celibate, you are not just asking them to forgo orgasm, but even the *hope* of that sort of intimacy, forever.

    Though I am responding to Liesl’s comment, I hope that people will keep that in mind when they talk about what gay people “should do.”

  84. Posted by Scott M on November 21, 2008 at 5:54 am

    Emily, I understand why you would credit your husband’s opinion over that of others, but I’ve read a lot of things by a lot of different people who also read Hebrew and Greek.

    (BTW, the oldest existent texts we have for the Hebrew bible and the text used by the Church from the 1st century on and quoted in the NT is actually the Greek Septuagint. The Hebrew Masoretic canon was established beginning in the second century and finished, I think, by the eighth century. Because the Greek Septuagint was more widely used in the Jewish diaspora and because of the destruction of Jerusalem — where many of the Hebrew texts were kept and used — some of the texts in the Masoretic are actually translations back into Hebrew from the Septuagint. Just an interesting historical side note. Luther was correct in seeking the original Greek text of the NT since it is older than the Latin text. He was mistaken, however, in his assumption that the Hebrew Masoretic text was older than the Greek Septuagint. They aren’t dramatically different, but there are some important differences. Among the differences, it seems that the rabbis working on what is now called the Masoretic text intentionally tweaked some of the language that Christians used from the Septuagint to convert Jews, prophetic language that more clearly pointed to Jesus and to the sort of Messiah found in Jesus.)

    Anyway, as Willard for one points out, it is not a purpose of
    the church to make converts. It’s our purpose to make disciples. And that involves being a community of healing in which the members learn by following Jesus and interacting with each other to become the sort of people who naturally respond to events by thoughts and actions of love for God and love for all other human beings. A disciple is one who follows Jesus for the purpose of living life as Jesus teaches it should be lived. Our purpose is to learn to be disciples and to help others learn to be disciples.

    ‘Witness’ is not something we do. It’s what we are. We are the witnesses of Jesus the Messiah, even if we have not personally seen him in the flesh. And if we confess Jesus as Lord, we are his witnesses no matter what. We are poor witnesses if we do not appear to be disciples. Yes, we need to proclaim that Jesus is Lord. But we have to remember, for instance, Mark 10:35-45 and keep firmly in mind the sort of Lord he is. And the ‘culture warriors’ simply don’t look like they are operating in accordance with that order and power structuring of Jesus’ kingdom.

    Our primary message is not anything about what happens to you after you die. (In fact, we would have to say, it seems to me, that death has been defeated and we do not actually ‘die’. Paul uses the word ’sleep’ instead of die for a theological reason, I would say.) Our proclamation is that Jesus is Lord of heaven and earth, we need to give him our believing allegiance, and we need to live as people who follow Jesus learning to live life as he lived it.

  85. Posted by Scott M on November 21, 2008 at 6:13 am

    Oh, I got sidetracked from the thought behind my first sentence. There are a whole bunch of people who read Greek and Hebrew who disagree with your husband. So that hardly makes it clear. It took me a long time to sort through some of what I think (which since I don’t have a particularly Christian background is perhaps understandable), but I have ended up relying more on Genesis 1-2 and statements in Scripture about what human sexuality should be rather than the tiny handful of negative scriptures which, whatever they are talking about, are certainly describing something more narrow and specific than what we encounter today. Romans 1 is probably the only exception to that, but it only makes sense when held in context with Genesis 1-2 and read with the heartbreaking sorrow and emptiness that permeates those words.

  86. Posted by Liesl on November 21, 2008 at 7:53 am

    Emily is right about the scriptures. The scriptures do calll homosexuality a sin. Both Old and New Testament. Scott – remember this in Thes., God sends a deluding influence to people who have rejected Him so that they may believe lies. How come a hundred years ago most everyone believed homosexuality is a sin. But we have become less Godly as a people and more people are rejecting Jesus than accepting Him.

    Molly says
    “But the fact is that in saying it, it doesn’t hurt *us.* And we humans are notorious for not really thinking a thing through, not being able to step into someone else’s shoes, if it doesn’t have to do with *us.*”

    Molly – what I said was what God says. I’ts not “me” making the laws of what sin is or isn’t. I never said I wouldn’t be compassionate or understanding, but I won’t lie to them and tell them something contrary to the Bible. Same as I wouldn’t lie to my friend when she was considering an abortion. I don’t go out beating gay people with a Bible.

    As I said before I don’t believe that most people who are gay are born that way. My niece was gay for a while. She’ll tell you that. Sure, some may have genetic issues, but I like Emily’s example of we tell the alcoholic who has a gene predisposiition that they should be sober but thell the homosexual it’s o.k. to go on sinning. I never said it would be easy.

  87. fyi to everyone following this thread:
    LRO had a comment in moderation (about 5 comments above this one) and I just rescued it, so it is now visible.

    (Don’t know why my blog does that sometimes…it happens to “amy is walking in the spirit,” too, and I have no idea why!)…

  88. Posted by Deborah on November 21, 2008 at 9:25 am

    My understanding from various reads is that there may be some genetic issues (even in simple predispositions to artsiness and sensitivity that can make a boy feel too separate from other boys) and some things about the way hormones are working in a mother’s body during the particular pregnancy and/or an overwhelming amount (and certainly in almost every GLBT person I’ve known) of environmental factors (abuse, extreme parental distancing, etc.) in most cases. (And although it has been said before, let’s reiterate that there are tons of terribly executed “science” studies out there attempting to support the genetics, and the sc. comm. tries to turn a blind eye to the faults, the lacks of controls, etc. and instead lauds them on the nightly news… but that it is not to say there is NOTHING to the genetics.) Anyhow, it is true there is no clear-cut cause for all. For instance, in college I worked at a store run by a gay man whose identical twin brother (and his wife and kids) would often visit. In college I also knew a lesbian who insisted (the first I had met who could say so) that she had an awesome relationship with her father; there was silence and quite a “sense” about her mom though.

    All that said, I’ve often thought about how hard a line it is to say you cannot ever act on your sexual desires. That is the Catholic church’s stance. That is the evangelical church’s stance short of healing, though thankfully at this time more in the evangelical community understand the possibility for healing (some in the catholic too but few).

    Before it was taken off the rolls of psych. diseases, even secular psych. was finding a great deal of success in either partially (largely undoing the desires one way and/or orienting them the other) or wholly (no more issues one way, orientation the other way, healthy new relationships, and continued success as checked upon years later) healing the homosexual who desired help. There has likewise been great success in the Christian community among those really willing to look at their hurts and sins and desiring to change, as much of a hub-bub as the GLBTs try to make over those who enter such programs and leave them (so successful in their protests that I think even a lot of Christians erroneously believe that most homosexuals cannot change). I’ve known Christians who have, either very, very rapidly or over a period of some years found this complete healing and, along with it, extraordinary depth in their self-understanding, walk with God, and freedom from past hurts. As a result, they sometimes have some of the best marriages out there and are well-equipped to shepherd others. These things are what we all–whether hetero and homo in desires–should be looking for, right? I do know one who tried to change, but put up many walls of pride and hypocritical masks and kept trying to come up with religious formulas; he married and put his wife through all sorts of things to prove his masculinity (her bandaid only enabled his wound, and he repeatedly returned to illicit homosexual trysts, but would it have been different if he was more willing to enter repentance on such overarching sins as would hinder any person’s healing?).

    Anyhow, I know if God had told me years ago that I would be 31 and unmarried and that He would be calling me to some focuses which would make it likely that it would be *at least* a decade further before I marry, I would have thought it absolutely impossible to do. I’d have thought, “Too red-blooded! Too oriented toward a need for emotional and mental intimacy! Way too tempted by the bohemian poet guys who have been my frequent circle and who’ve wanted me! Need something for that fire!” And currently I am dealing with severe physcial illness (of indefinite duration) and a lot of isolation, in which I could particularly yearn for that sense of friendship and support. But here I am at 31, almost 32, looking at exactly that scenario. I have never even kissed or held hands and have had to really, really fight to gain greater freedom in my thought life among other things. Sometimes I regretted that I hadn’t at least allowed myself to exchange a little affection with some of my earlier love interests b/c I felt cheated as I waited longer and realized God might now allow me that relationship in His perfect will. But now I am glad for it.

    I still have periods of greater struggle, but I used to be terrible in these areas. This “cross” or discipline has shaped me in ways I could not have previously imagined–good ways for which I am quite thankful. Still, I can only begin to imagine what it is like to be told NEVER (and with little or no hope for change as is typically presented). I guess what I can do in those instances is speak from some degree of experience as to how surprisingly good God can make celibacy and how much wholer one can become as a person when intimate sexual expression is not something we can use as a crutch to deal with what is going on in our lives. I have thought about this often. I can speak into some of the grace and blessing of it, but it is important to understand my limitations in understanding as well as one who would inherently have a greater hope of someday marrying and who has never had to face a “NEVER.”

    Deb

  89. Posted by Emily on November 21, 2008 at 9:48 am

    Scott,

    Oh, my.

    Wow! You are promoting a whole different kind of Christianity than what I believe! Okay…

    Well, I can’t argue Septuagint/Masoretic texts with you. However my husband can. And did, for five minutes this morning before he headed off to his appointment. :) I didn’t know what he was talking about, but he sure did. He’ll have to take that up with you on his own, however, if he so chooses.

    I don’t really want to argue with you. But, I am curious as to your answer to this question. If, as you say, “our primary message is not about what happens after you die, but is to proclaim Jesus as Lord of heaven and earth, and our purpose is to learn to live life as he lived it,” then …

    Why did Jesus die on the cross?

    And why did Jesus say in the Garden of Gethsemane, “Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”? What could have been so horrible to anticipate that he was sweating drops of blood?

    And why did Jesus rise from the dead?

    So, actually three questions.

    —–
    Because if I’m correctly understanding what you wrote earlier, then my response to you is this: Believing that Jesus came to earth primarily to be our moral teacher — is denying his real purpose, and it is false doctrine. Confessing that Jesus is Lord without acknowledging his true, saving work — means nothing. Even Satan and his angels acknowledge Jesus as Lord, but they don’t believe in him. Why believe in Jesus, even a Lord-of-heaven-and-earth Jesus, if he only came primarily to make our lives here on earth better?

    The Christian church has been so damaged by preachers such as Rick Warren and Joel Osteen, with their “purpose-driven lives” and “your best life now.” Christianity is NEVER just about our lives here, it is EVERYTHING about the eternity to come. Plus, Jesus says that life is never going to be easy for Christians on this earth, it will never be your best life now. Why else would Jesus say, “Take up your cross and follow me,” or “Anyone who loves his father or mother (or child or friend … or lover) more than me is not worthy of me.” Christianity is about your best life then – in heaven.

    My husband wrote and preached a great sermon on this a few months back. You can find it at http://pastorstrey.wordpress.com/2008/07/12/sermon-on-romans-8/

    Scott, if you are truly preaching what I’m understanding you to say that you’re preaching, then you are preaching a Christianity that has lost its focus on Christ and why he truly came into the world. There is, at best, incorrect emphasis in your preaching, and at worst, false doctrine. Either way, I fear you will have a lot to answer for when you stand before God someday.

    In Christian concern,
    Emily

  90. Posted by Emily on November 21, 2008 at 9:51 am

    Molly, I’m sorry if I’m totally hijacking your blog with my post to Scott. I’ll stop posting on this if you’d prefer.

    ~ Emily

  91. Emily,
    My spam catcher must be on steriods today. I just pulled your above post out of purgatory.

    On your second short comment, wondering if it’s okay: of course. Keep going. (The only people that are unwelcome around here are spam-bots). The goal here is that disagreement will be done with respect and without name-calling and other unneccesary additions, but, hey, we’re all human. Seems like everyone here is grown-up enough to apologize when they realize they went overboard. You certainly haven’t. We have to be able to have our strong opinions and feelings about things…and if we’re mature enough to talk about them, so much the better.

    Good conversation doesn’t exist if everything thinks the same way on everything, right? The comment box here is for conversation. Wherever it rambles and flows. :)
    Warmly,
    Molly

  92. Posted by Jenn on November 21, 2008 at 10:49 am

    Jesus said that these two commandments are “the greatest of these- Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your mind and all your soul and Love your neighbour as yourself.” There wasn’t any disclaimers that this was going to be easy and that living our lives doing this would be neat and tidy.
    My mind is reeling from the many, wonderful comments. So many to touch on, so little space. ;) I personally have yet to see an openly gay couple enter into a church that I’ve attended and I’m sad to say that I really don’t think that they would experience Love if they did. I don’t want to be harsh but most of us are so quick to jump on what we interpret as wrong and forget that we are still sinners. So the couple would come into our church and we would have some quick judgements about them. I venture to say that many would be uncomfortable asking them for lunch after church. The majority wouldn’t think twice about jumping into their financed vehicles to go pay for lunch on credit and the conversation over that lunch would probably circle around the infamous couple. I wish that this wasn’t representative of the majority of people in our churches but the truth is, the observations are probably fairly reflective of most church scenarios each of us have.
    The Christian subculture continues to emulate the society we live in more and more without really making an impact. We have our own music, our own books, our own stores. We listen, we read, we buy and then we go out there with the guns a blazin’ with our “we’re right, you’re wrong” mindset and I don’t see where the Love is. I think that the truth is that we are supposed to be “light” but we are afraid of the dark. It is scary to step out of our comfortable places and love and walk alongside the hurting and the broken. To use the hospital analogy, the hours are long and there is always a new patient. The real beauty is in the Medicine that we share. It carries us, too.

    Thank you, anonymous, for such a poignant and beautifully written letter. It was like reading my “inside voice”. ;)

  93. Posted by bonnie on November 21, 2008 at 10:50 am

    I think you got it, Emily, you are seeing Christianity differently than I. i would consider your understanding as traditional, at least in the last 100 years. But I’m certainly no expert.

    I don’t get the connection between stating that our purpose as Christians is to live a life modeled after Christ (following Him) and then all the questions, Why the cross etc. You stated earlier that He died as our penalty for sin. Their are different theological ways of understanding the cross, and I’m leaning away from the cross-as-punishment understanding. I’ve heard it described as a “cure” from our sin, not “punishment.” God is leading me slowly on my journey, so again, I’m no expert, but I think it’s a fundamental difference in theological understanding.

    I don’t think Scott was advocating Jesus as the “moral teacher” other religions see him as. The point is that we’ve been healed by Him through the cross, and we are commanded to love, and yes it mentions making disciples.

    I’ve also been wondering what you mean as “the Gospel”? Is it be saved or suffer eternal fire? That’s based on after we “die”, and I don’t think that’s the point. Jesus was speaking about the “kingdom of Heaven” as if it were upon them. Not after death.

    Gotta cut this short as duty calls!

  94. (Btw, I didn’t think that Scott was advocating Jesus-as-Moral-Teacher-Only concept either).

  95. Disclaimer and News Item:

    I have no idea why, but the word press spam catcher appears to be over-zealous today. If you post a comment and it doesn’t show up, just know that you’re one of many “special ones” designated for special treatment today, haha, and know that I’ll rescue your comment next time I sit down to pop online.

  96. Deborah wrote…

    Anyhow, it is true there is no clear-cut cause for all [people who are gay].

    I agree. I think the problem when you (general “you”) are talking about “gayness” is that a lot of the time you are talking about indivdual’s relationships and people have relationships for all sorts of reasons.

    It is generally accepted by the scientfic community that gayness does have a genetic component, especially (but not exclusively) for men. Twin studies have shown this. However most geneticists (my wife is one) will tell you that genes can be switched off and on and “triggered” by certain environments, usually ones involving physical components such as hormones rather than emotional. That doesn’t mean that the genetics are any less overwhelming, just that like everything else about humanity. homosexuality is a result of very complex things and interactions (including, I believe, God making people that way)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation has a good summary of studies which support what I say above about complexity. I know citing wikipedia is dodgy, but I’m more interested in the fact that the studies they cite can be followed up on and from what I know of the subject the article represents the findings accurately, i.e. “it’s complicated.”

    I also knew a lesbian who insisted (the first I had met who could say so) that she had an awesome relationship with her father; there was silence and quite a “sense” about her mom though.

    I call this the “parent trap” ::smile:: Say you’re a lesbian: You have a good relationship with your dad but not with your mom. So really you’re looking for your mom in your GFs. Say you have a good realtionship with your mom but not your dad. So obviously your dad has turned you off guys. If you had a bad relationship with both your parents then you’re just generally messed up, and if you had a good relationship with both your parents, let’s look for some other reason. Rinse and repeat for gay men. It’s hard to win this sort of argument.

    As for myself, the first time I remember having romantic thoughts towards a girl, I was five. At the time my parents had a great relationship.

    Before it was taken off the rolls of psych. diseases, even secular psych. was finding a great deal of success in either partially (largely undoing the desires one way and/or orienting them the other) or wholly (no more issues one way, orientation the other way, healthy new relationships, and continued success as checked upon years later) healing the homosexual who desired help.

    Peer reviewed studies, please?

    To use a rather simplistic analogy (which can break down rather quickly), I tend to think of sexual orientation as akin to being right or left handed. Some people are right handed, some left handed, some are ambidextrous. They used to try to force people who are left-handed to use their right hand. Some people refused. Some people did when others were looking, but when alone used their left hand. Some people learned slowly and painfully to use their right hand, but that didn’t make them right handed. And my sister talked to a woman of our parent’s generation who mainly uses her right hand now, but said “you know what? Sometimes I go to do a task I’ve done a million times before, and I just freeze in midair, unable to remember how to do it with either hand.”

    healing the homosexual who desired help.

    This is where it gets into dicey territory — to me that sounds a lot like saying “healing the paraplegic who desired help” or “healing the person with bipolar who desired help.” It puts the onus on the *person* and if whatever someone is doing doesn’t work it’s not because the method is wrong, or because something is not chageable, it because the person doesn’t “truly desire” to change. How does someone prove that they really want healing? I mean there can be signs that they don’t — not cooperating in exercises, etc,, but ultimately by saying “oh you aren’t changing, obviously you don’t want to.” “Well, how do you know that? “because if you wanted to you would be changing” is a very cruel circular logic.

    . I guess what I can do in those instances is speak from some degree of experience as to how surprisingly good God can make celibacy and how much wholer one can become as a person when intimate sexual expression is not something we can use as a crutch to deal with what is going on in our lives.

    I totally agree with this!!!! I think a period of celibacy can be very valuable when handled correctly, and I believe that when sex is used as a substitute for intimacy rather than an enhancement to it, it is indeed sometimes a crutch for *not* dealing with underlying issues in our lives. Very well said.

  97. Posted by Deborah on November 21, 2008 at 12:36 pm

    For whatever it is worth, I think almost all my local church would struggle to have some openly gay folks among us, even with the presence of overt confrontation, yet unbeknownst to many, we have been providing a warm bed one night a week to a bisexually active man, and prior to that my lead pastor has had lesbians who don’t attend the church just stop in and say, “Hey, are you the pastor” and ask for advice or prayer, feeling it was a place they could come, even when they learned he did not agree with their lifestyle. Also, one woman I know recently confronted a bisexual acquaintance, and it actually led to a much deeper relationship where he opened up about his past, hugged her, and said that he knew (on the basis of this one confrontative meeting, that she loved him). All sorts of ways God leads us… she said she couldn’t believe the words tumbling out of her mouth; this was a student at the university where she worked, and she could easily have lost her job that day. As for the housechurch scenario I mentioned in Vermont, that particular lesbian woman didn’t seem to even wonder if the Christians would accept her (rather stupendous, I think, considering our Church history) but simply came on the basis of a healthy work relationship with one member of the host couple who had made her feel sufficiently like another person to love. So inroads happen, even when you don’t expect them.

  98. Posted by Deborah on November 21, 2008 at 12:40 pm

    As for the bi guy among the homeless who come… he is one of several who, not because of his preferences but b/c of how he is handling them among other things, is bringing so much “stuff” in with him, that the church may need to begin screening who stays. That is, unfortunately, a reality. And of the churches in town with a homeless program, we are the only one that allows women and children (which seems completely backwards, but I digress… I think it has to do with litigation issues should abuse happen).

  99. http://accidentalweblog.blogspot.com/2008/11/surprised-by-hope.html
    Just popping in to share a link from a sometimes commenter here, with thoughts that I thought went along perfectly with this conversation.
    Now, back to Real Life… :)

  100. thanks for the link molly! i have to agree with the reviewer – that book really opened a door for me in getting out of the fear and confusion around end-times theology…and more than that, it helped me see all of life as part of this grand, redemptive scheme God has been working…a wonderful, beautiful new (to me) revelation.

    ~ totally enjoying scott’s comments, as usual. beautiful thoughts on witness and discipleship.

  101. Emily,
    In my dealings with the WELS church here, I heard a very similar argument: “Our preachers had Greek and Hebrew, they are better trained than everyone else, and they know how to interpret the Bible properly.”

    What that doesn’t take into consideration is that there are MANY who have had extensive Greek and Hebrew training. And their interpretations do not all agree, despite that fact.

    Knowing Greek or Hebrew well gives a person a leg up…but, er, just one leg up. Knowing languages is awesome. What a service it provides to those who don’t! I’m so thankful for those who serve the body at large with this kind of training.

    But…

    All of us, language-students or not, STILL don’t have an understanding of what the language meant at the time that it was written. Knowing Greek or Hebrew does not transport one back in time 2,000 years ago (or 4,000 to 2,000, if we’re talking OT). For example, often accurate interpretation depends on discovering “What Did The Original Hearers Understand This To Mean?” Ie, Koine Greek does not a Time Machine make.

    Many many maaany scholars of Biblical languages love God and desire His truth passionately…and yet disagree on interpretation. This has been true for the *entirety* of church history. The amount of seminary training will NOT necessarily produce better interpreters, particularly if the seminary training has involved steady indoctrination into one particular groups views on what Scripture means. Ie, I appreciate the way that the WELS honor scholarship, but scholarship does not provide infallibility. Knowing the original language does not provide one with a mantle of error-free interpretation. Those who SPOKE the original language and WROTE the original language failed to interpret God’s words correctly (such as the Jewish church struggling to realize that the Gentiles were meant to be included). How arrogant are we if we think we can do better today?

    Anytime one group says that their group has The Correct Interpretation, and thusly insinuates that all the other groups do not have the Holy Spirit to teach them or are disobeying the Holy Spirit, I start looking for my running shoes. Which is not to say that I don’t believe in absolute truth. Not at all. It’s just that I don’t believe that a group of fallible *human beings* can be in full possession of all absolute truth.

    (Realize that I am not talking about homosexuality here, but of interpreting-Scripture-in-general).

  102. Posted by Holly on November 21, 2008 at 2:57 pm

    thanks for the explanation waaaay up there, Molly. I misunderstood, I think…

    I agree that the church needs to do a better job of loving. I’m just not sure exactly what that looks like. It’s a hard balance between loving and accepting people within our churches, but believing that an endorsement or an allowance would be detrimental for our society. I know that you, and many of your readers, don’t think that homosexual marriage is bad for our society, but I do. (That doesn’t have to cause animosity between any of us – it just is what it is, and I think it is good to talk about it.)

    I appreciate so much of what Emily has had to say. (Thanks, Emily. :) )

    I’m sorry, everyone, but I think it is terrible isogesis to say that God only meant temple prostitution when he prohibited homosexuality. (That does not mean that I do not have compassion, and true concern, and true love for the individuals who struggle and who hurt because of this.) He does, indeed, call many to celibacy. Celibacy from physical intimacy means celibacy from emotional intimacy at some level, too. That has to be very difficult – but surely he replaces the human intimacy with intimacy with Himself.

    I was thinking, just today, how difficult it is to come from such completely different theological backgrounds yet to try to converse about complex issues. It is, as Emily said, a completely different kind of Christianity. It took me awhile to realize that!

    It’s hard to be coherent, and kind, yet articulate about our own views and beliefs. I have learned so much by talking with those of you who believe differently than I have. I appreciate that, and in some ways the Lord has used it to moderate my own views. In many ways, though, He has strengthened me in my own faith. I suspect it has done the same for many of you. :)

  103. Holly, I like you! You have such a gracious way of dissenting. :)

    Hmmm… I haven’t heard a lot of people here say that God only meant temple prostitution. I brought it up, only to say that there *is* scholarship on one side, not just wishful thinking. The temple prostitute argument is one of the arguments offered, and I think it’s at least worth looking at carefully. What if we’re wrong, you know? (Much of the South believed furvently that to end black slavery was to end Bible-believing Christianity, since they were *sure* that the Bible was pro-slavery).

    From a stance of humility, I think it’s good to take a look at the scholarship of the “other side,” sit and listen instead of assume, and all of that. That doesn’t by any means require a person to *agree* with the other side. Listening carefully and agreeing are two different things. I listened carefully. I don’t agree. But I did learn. It was good. It softens me, in the good kind of way.

    On two different kinds of Christianity, I suppose I might not understand. I have not heard anyone here deny the Apostles or Nicene creed. I have not heard anyone say that Jesus is not Lord. Would Emily or you (or someone else) care to elaborate what you mean? Thanks!

    Warmly,
    Molly

  104. Posted by Dee on November 21, 2008 at 4:02 pm

    I REALLY do not feel comfortable with the only homosexual relationships that were wrong were the temple prositiution.

    God is pretty serious about sexual sin. Sex outside of marriage. Fornication, adultry, homosexuality, and sodomy, are outside of His plan, and all our sinful.

    Not being judgemental, because I am a sinner. A terrible sinner and I am ashamed. But, the truth is the truth. Any sin we commit with our bodies, does not honor God. He intended one man, one woman, for life. No fornication, no adultry, etc., etc. We’ve messed it up.

    Also, the Lord Jesus says that anyone who LOOKS upon a woman with lust has already commited adultry with her. So, that goes for pornograpy too.

    Just saying, sin is sin, and I’m a chief of sinners, but, it’s still sin. Blessings and I mean this in kind spirit. :)

  105. Posted by Holly on November 21, 2008 at 4:21 pm

    Oops, wanted to clarify that I don’t think it is hard to picture what individual relationships and responses should be…that should be love. I meant that it is difficult for churches to proceed knowing that they believe all sexual sins to be wrong and yet finding that people don’t want to call sexual sins wrong.

    Okay, on the “different” thing. Not meaning the Nicene Creed or the Apostle’s creed. Just on the differing approaches. There are liberal Christians, there are conservative Christians. There is fundamentalism, there is progressive-ism. :) There are those who love people, but still believe that God judges sin. There is a way, which is different than I have always believed, that says only love matters…and nothing else. This way of Christianity is hesitant to even say there is such a thing as sin. It seems that some want to rewrite Scripture – it’s upside down! Nothing that has been written is as we think it to be. No…that’s not new, and yes, it is good for us to step into another’s shoes and into another’s point of view. I don’t mind that, I try to do it…but it is not for me. I do learn, I do soften, I do grow. But I also must reject some of the Universalist tendencies. :)

    Respectfully, :) , I did not say that everyone here is saying that the scriptures should be interpreted to only condemn homosexuality as practiced by temple prostitution. It was raised as a view, however. Yes, it is okay to look into that – but it is also good to look into the background of the scholar who is writing such things. What does he or she say about other key scriptures and cultural applications? What do they say about the cross, and atonement, and Heaven, and Hell? Surely we will all have different points of view on these things…depending upon our backgrounds. For me, however, after having looked into these arguments and theories (which is all they are but are stated as FACT by those who espouse these views…not here, but elsewhere…) I reject them as wishful thinking.

    I would also like to point out that science has never isolated a “gay gene.” It may happen someday, but has not happened yet.

  106. There are those who love people, but still believe that God judges sin…

    This way of Christianity is hesitant to even say there is such a thing as sin.

    Holly…? I believe that God judges sin. I think that Scott does too (and tonia). I also do not hesitate to say there is such a thing as sin. I think that Scott and tonia feel the same way.

    From what I can gather, I’m thinking you think that I/we don’t? Regardless, I know that I personally do. So if/where we differ, and we very well may, it’s in a different area that that.

  107. Posted by Holly on November 21, 2008 at 5:30 pm

    I wasn’t naming names! I certainly didn’t mean you, Molly, so I’m sorry if it seemed that way. I didn’t even have anyone specific in mind. It’s just a general, overall tone – that is new to me – in general. I think that we’re in a new time, in a new place in Christianity and in the world. It’s not specifically HERE – it’s everywhere. I think some of that will be good – in that I think we will be moved to action more than ever before!. Some of it might be bad….I think our societies will be restructured, and not for the good. Does anyone else feel this? It is even hard for me to put my finger on. Don’t be too quick to jump to assumptions, okay? :)

  108. Holly wrote…

    I would also like to point out that science has never isolated a “gay gene.” It may happen someday, but has not happened yet.

    I think most scientists would say that there never will be a “gay” gene which is isolated, and that you won’t find a gene that is “isolated” for most human conditions. For example, we have not yet isolated a gene for height and hair colour.

    So saying there’s no “gay gene” does not mean that being gay is not genetic. Also, as I said in an above comment, someone’s environment (usually in the womb) can trigger or turn off genes. Then you get into non-genetic physical components, such as as hormone exposure. An example of that would be the study (and I’m pulling from memories of first year psych here, I can try to find references) that showed that women who were pregnant during the Blitz in WWII were more likely to have gay sons. This “stress hormone” effect has also been demonstrated using mice.

    Also, rereading my comment, i find that perhaps the question “does genetics determine sexual orientation” is inappropriate. A better phrasing might be “does biology determine sexual orientation?” I would argue that for most people it does.

  109. whoops, picture italics ending after the words “turn off genes” in the second paragraph.

  110. Posted by Holly on November 21, 2008 at 5:34 pm

    mmmm – okay…here’s a try.

    The new way says that “sin” is not protecting tree frogs. Abortion is no longer sin.

    The new way says that it is a “sin” against humankind to have more than two children (yes…my local smalltown paper featured an article by a local pastor who said this very thing….) but homosexuality (as practiced, not as inclined) is not sin.

    I am not angry – I want to be sure and say that. Not to be cheesy or kind in a “fake way.” I mean that, and I mean that I appreciate talking about it all and learning, and trying to understand.

    But I just don’t get this new way of thinking. Loving? I get that. Rewriting foundations? I don’t get that.

    (Again, not saying anyone specifically is saying this…just noting it is becoming more prevalent today. And I’m responding because you asked for clarification, Molly, not because I wish to anger anyone nor stir up strife.)

  111. Posted by Holly on November 21, 2008 at 5:42 pm

    LRO, I leave room for future sincere and conclusive scientific research.

    Do you know what troubles me, though? I am tender for the individuals who have struggled – everyone has struggled in some way. THAT IS FOR SURE! :)

    I’m frustrated by the “trendy” homosexuality. Here in our local highschool, it is the cool thing to be, to do, to experiment with. I know the argument has been made that there is no agenda within the public school system – but there truly is. It is pushed on very young, and very confused children. It is aggressive, and wrong – and causes much confusion in developing children.

    I want you to know, personally, that I appreciate you being so open. It must be hard for you and must have been hard for you over the years…and yet, you still kindly continue to explain how it feels for you and what is is like to be in your shoes. That takes a lot of strength. You – especially you, friend, are very warm and loving and are appreciated. (())

  112. my ears were burning. *grin*

    i do think there is something new going on, holly. i feel it too and i really saw it during the election but you’re right, it’s hard to put a finger on it.

    i’m not so sure about your second definition though….it seems like the whole population/environment versus abortion thing has been around for a long time.

    i do think (honest-to-goodness, bible-believing) christians are changing the way they approach some of the big issues of our day however and i think that is really upsetting to some folks who feel like any changes are just compromise or embracing sin.

    we all get to s-t-r-e-t-c-h a bit, i guess. *smile*

  113. Okay, Holly, thank you so much for clarifying. I think I see more now where you are coming from.

    You had said this, among other things:

    I was thinking, just today, how difficult it is to come from such completely different theological backgrounds yet to try to converse about complex issues. It is, as Emily said, a completely different kind of Christianity. It took me awhile to realize that!

    Since you had said to Scott before that you sharply differed from his views, I assumed you meant me as well (since I usually, though not always, tend to find myself nodding my head up and down at comments from Scott). So I was scratching my head, I guess, when you gave specifics like God not judging sin…I was just trying to figure out what the specific theological differences were, and those threw me for a loop. I think I understand more now where you were coming from.

    I hear you on the tree frogs are in, human babies are out. It’s not a good sign. A good sign that righteousness is in the air will be when we respect animal life as opposed to abusing/exploiting it, when we recognize human life has value and potential, instead of thinking of it as unwanted and a burden…

    Perhaps some of the backlash in the general public is our fault, you know? It’s been popular in conservative Christendom (though I realize not in your family) to hate abortion WHILE vilifying attempts to clean up the way we treat our livestock, poultry, and rivers. The message has been a confusing one, a hypocritical one, and perhaps some of the reaction now is in protest to the lopsided view we were guilty of promoting. (I say “we” as in conservative Christianity in general).

    Just thinking aloud. I’m all for not running animal species into extinction. I’m also all for reducing the amount of abortions, and working for ways to help our culture value human life (in the womb and already born). In some ways, our culture is doing a great job of valuing life. In other ways, we really REALLY stink.

    More rambling…

    I’m wondering if the thing you can’t put your finger on… the big shift in thinking… is what was brought up before…the shift between modern and postmodern.

    Up to now, it seems like the shift has been happening as opposed to “happened.” (My specific high school graduation year, 93, actually, was purported to be the year of the great shift—the kids before my graduation tested as predominantly modern thinkers. The kids after my graduation year tested to be predominantly postmodern).

    I think, now more than ever, it’s officially *happened.* I have read some scholars that say that Barak Obama marks the great shift—-not so much his specific politics, as those could be different or the same and it wouldn’t matter (as in, a Republican, a Libertarian, etc, could all do it too), but more the WAY in which he campaigned, the WAY in which he and his team thought about how to reach people, the WAY in which they did reach people. The speakers were saying it was the first time a campaign was run in a postmodern era FOR a postmodern crowd.

    Very interesting. If they are correct, we’ve moved into the bulk of our population thinking from a postmodern perspective instead of a modern perspective.

    I never really thought about what it would feel like, when studying ages in history, to be, for example, a human who was born toward the end of the seventeenth century, and then experiencing the shift from the “way it’s done” (what they would have defined that to mean, that is) and into the age of enlightenment, in the eighteenth century, when everything began to have a different “way it’s done.”

    It would be really hard and confusing for those caught with a foot in both ages of thinking.

    I think that is true for many of us today. It is difficult for those who are more in the modern way of thought to understand those who are in a most postmodern framework. It is also difficult for those of us who have one foot in both frameworks.

    There are very good things about postmodern thinking. The rejection of formulaic thinking, the valuing of relationships over things, the skepticism, the realization that reason alone provides neither solace nor infallible answers—all of those things can be very positive traits. They can all be very good for the body of Christ, too. There are some frightening things about post-modernism, as well. So much skepticism. The rejection of absolutes.

    Keeping in mind that much of post-modernism is a reaction to modernism, so in that sense, I don’t blame them for rejecting absolutes. Look what the age of modernistic absolutes produced: Hitler’s views were “absolute truths” and were horribly destructive. Communism was an “absolute truth” and how terrible it was. The Religous Right preached “absolute truth” that God is a Republican (not comparing the religous right to Stalin or Mao, mind you!)…the list is pretty long of abuses that have taken place under, “Our Group Has the One True Answer For You.”

    It’s hard to blame them for rejecting absolute truth when “absolutes’ have so often been used as a sledge hammer instead of as a foundation to stand on. Anyways, time will tell what we, as a people, both nationally as well as within the church, decide what in postmodernism to nurture and what we decide not to. This could be a really good shift for the world. Or then again, it could be really bad. There’s no way to know right now.

    Btw, I didn’t mean to speak for you, Scott and tonia, so please correct me when and where I’m wrong.

    Oh, and I would have spoken for other people as well, while I was minding other people’s business (harhar), but I sort of lost track of what names were saying what and so stopped with just Scott and tonia in order to play it safe, so…uh, well, that’s that. HA!

  114. *hee*

    no, you’re right, molly. i do believe in sin and God’s judgment of it. :)

  115. Posted by Holly on November 21, 2008 at 7:09 pm

    Thanks y’all. Gotta run. Company is here. :)

  116. Posted by wysiwyg on November 21, 2008 at 9:15 pm

    I do believe we (many conservative Christians in general) have thrown the “enviromental baby” out with the bath water when we ignore important issues regarding animals and the earth. BUT (and this is a huge but), it bothers me greatly, hugely, monsterously when we have conversations that allude to an equal importance of protecting animals (which I am all for) and saving unborn babies and the value of human life. No offense to all of the cute, fuzzy very loveable animals out there, but I believe the sanctity of human life is more important and if we could only choose one, we need to solve this crucial issue in our society first. I get very uncomfortable hearing save the tree frogs in the same sentence as lower abortion rates. Right there it seems to portray a lowering value of human life that I do not believe God intended. I hope I’m not stepping on any toes, and I know how hot a button animals and the enviroment is for some people, but I don’t tend to see the same fervor for human life in those same people. To me that’s unbalanced, and if you listen to me at all, I am always harping on BALANCE. The right balance doesn’t always have to mean equal levels for everything. Just everything in the proper balance. OK I’m prepared for the rotten tomatoes! :)

  117. Posted by Scott M on November 21, 2008 at 9:44 pm

    A lot of comments this evening. We’ve been celebrating the 12th birthday of our youngest. We’re doing the big celebration tomorrow. Reading through the latest comments started at least six different threads of thought spinning through my mind, perhaps more.

    Sin and God’s judgment of it seems to be a point of interest. That brought to mind something I’ve heard N.T. Wright say a number of times. It’s one of those things where I found myself nodding my head in instant understanding and agreement even before I had really digested the comments. Wright has said that sometimes he thinks “the role of postmodernity has been to preach the fall to arrogant modernity.”

    In many ways that captures the core. Postmoderns are rarely ‘anti-modern’. In fact, I would say it requires almost a modern cultural shaping to be ‘anti-modern’. There is much that has been enormously good and useful in the modern era. As a rule, when I’m going to a doctor, I do want one who is quite skilled in the tools of modernity when it comes to medicine. I hope that any plane in which I fly conforms to the best fruits of modern engineering and quality control. The reaction is against the arrogance of modernity and in many ways the widespread systemic evil that arrogance has wrought.

    I’m also too old to be entirely comfortable with the label ‘postmodern’. Had I graduated high school in the normal way, mine would have been the class of 1983. By any measure I’ve seen, that places me near or at the beginning of the generation frequently labeled ‘generation x’. Although I would not have put it in those terms until recently, I was also among the few at the leading edge raised by boomer parents and experiencing many of the cultural shaping forces which are generally labeled ‘postmodern’.

    Ironically, by the time the label came to be more widely used in the 90s, it looked to the lens of my postmodern suspicion like another of those trendy names people like to throw on things. My inclination was to dismiss. However, it kept coming back up and often in ways that described how I perceived the world around me, the lens through which I saw reality. Finally, reading and listening to some things by Jack Caputo a couple of years made me throw in the towel. He described me to a tee. And if what he described was ‘labeled’ postmodern, then that’s what I was and I might as well stop fighting against the silly label.

    As Molly points out, this is the sort of cultural shift that simply does not occur very often. We are in the midst of it now and it will almost certainly continue playing out over the next couple of hundred years. Postmodernity is not the destination. It’s part of the journey. While there are varying theories, sociologists generally agree that we are well into a cultural shift as large as the one that began in the 16th century in Western Europe. This one promises to be much more global in scale, though it seems to be playing out differently in different places.

    Now, I say that to say this. I have a hard time thinking of an example of someone shaped by postmodern forces who does not carry a deep sense or awareness that things are broken. They may not attribute it to anything that sounds even vaguely recognizable as Christian. I get that as well. I’ve only been developing an identity as a Christian for the last 15 years or less. Christian or not, we see the evil. We see the intended and unintended consequences.

    So moving into a Christian context, do I believe in sin? Once I began to understand the way Holy Scripture used concepts we translate to that slippery little word ’sin’ I realized I had always believed in sin. I don’t believe in anything vaguely like the extraordinarily modern overarching story of ‘total depravity’. Not even vaguely. (For that matter, neither do I believe in the deeply platonic idea of ‘original sin’ which Augustine based on 5 poorly translated and/or exegeted fragments of scripture along with the philosophical notion of seminal reason. But that’s a different discussion.)

    But people do evil things. And the powers and systems which spring to life around groups of people do evil things. And they often do them in the name of some sort of ‘good’. Both of those forms of evil are ’sin’. And God has judged sin and Holy Scripture is also clear. Every time a future judgment is mentioned, it is clear we will be judged on the totality of our lives. That would be pretty bad news if the judgment did not come from the lips of Jesus of Nazareth.

    That was a wordy and roundabout beginning of an explanation to something I’m sure you thought was a more simple statement. To me, it’s not. When you talk about ’sin’, you’re stepping into deep waters indeed.

    Another thread. Lots of continuing discussions about gays. First, please know that I grew up saturated in so many things. My father is a geneticist. My aunt is a geneticist. Another aunt was a lawyer and judge. Another uncle is a programmer from back when that was truly esoteric. My mother is an educator, an art therapist (and some other masters in there as well), an artist, and a writer. Even my uncle who did not go to college and became a machinist for the oil companies came up with a number of oil drill designs and other patented designs over the course of his life. And spent much of that life going back and forth to Alaska. The spiritual landscape of my family is just as varied.

    I say that to say this. We don’t understand intelligence. We are unlikely to ever fully understand it. Everyone agrees there are genetic factors, but it’s not a single gene or even several. High intelligence is clearly a factor that involves the interaction of multiple genetic factors and we are unlikely to ever ‘isolate’ them. However, genetics are just one component. There are clearly environmental factors, especially hormonal and chemical factors at certain key points that drastically impact whatever genetic potential for intelligence may exist, either positively or negatively. Nourishment and malnourishment play a huge factor. A child with constant ear infections may have difficulty developing their potential for high intelligence until the impairing factor is addressed. Further, there are developmental factors at work. For instance, abuse may (but by no means is it a causal relationship or inevitable result) impair intellectual development.

    Now, in what way do you believe our sexuality is any less complicated than our intelligence? The range of factors are enormous. I’m developing a sense of the Christian sexual ethic based on how I am beginning to understand what we were created to be. But this has been slow going for me. (Lauren Winner helped a lot in Real Sex.) I’m pretty comfortable now with the idea that we were created for our sexuality to be expressed, if expressed at all, in a male/female union that in some ways is an eikon of the Trinity. And which is also the eikon of God’s desired communion with man. Those are great mysteries, but I’m beginning to grok them. Just beginning.

    I hear a lot of rhetoric from those who would ‘protect the family’, but the questions that come to my mind are more practical ones. A partner in a long term committed homosexual relationship (and in this era, children may be involved as well) begins to explore Christianity. What do you do? If your ideology does offer an answer that seems likely to bring that person (and perhaps the entire person’s family, including children) into greater communion with Christ, if it does not offer a response that looks and feels and tastes like something which is actively willing the good for that person and that person’s family, then I’m not going to be much interested in your ideology. I’m sorry, but that’s just the way it is. Sometimes we really do just have to bring people to Jesus and let him sort things out. This way of looking at the world is probably why I understood Sara Miles so well when I read her autobiographical book, Take This Bread.

    There are no easy or simple answers here. I am, however, certain that each individual we encounter is one with whom we are to love and with whom we are created to be in communion.

    Tree frogs vs. babies. Such distorted and manipulative rhetoric. That runs headlong into my postmodern suspicion. Distorted statements like that are pure propaganda and have little place in a Christian discussion. I’m not aware of any disciple of Jesus who is in favor of killing babies. That strikes me as rhetoric intended to demonize Christians with whom you disagree on approach. It’s interesting and, I think, very relevant to study the opposition of the early church to abortion and infant exposure in the ancient pagan world. Their opposition to these practices are actually one of the reasons the early Church attracted so many women, frequently without their husbands. However, Christians did not simply say the practices were wrong. (I have no problem with that.) They walked outside the city and picked up the exposed infants everywhere they could find them and raised them. They worked to give women options instead of abortion.

    I think those practices had then and would have today a lot more impact than fighting for some potential legal fiction. I’m simply unconvinced that there is much to be done in legal venues that will have much impact at all. Overturning Roe vs. Wade is meaningless (and also highly unlikely to happen). That won’t outlaw abortion. It will simply return regulation to the states. That may or may not be a good thing, but the reality is that very few states will actually outlaw abortion. The poorest in those few states may lose access to legal abortions because they can’t afford to travel, but that’s about it. And I’m sure an illegal market will arise if the demand is present.

    The legal fight seems largely meaningless to me. And many of those who curry votes based on empty promises regarding it, often do not favor actions that would reduce the pressures that drive women to abortion.

    As expected, very wordy. And I lost most of the threads running through my mind. I’m sure you’re grateful for that. ;) It’s late.

    Grace and peace

  118. Scott,I am thinking you are referring to my comments?In my statements I spoke nothing of the legal battles for or against abortion. That is a different issue.

    I simply do not believe tree frogs can be discussed on the same level as human life. I am only speaking about our seemingly easy way of equating animal rights with dignity of human life. How can they be compared? I have personal aquaintances who are somewhat extreme animal rights advocates, but scoff at my opinion that abortion is wrong. How can that be? Especially in the believing community? Why do these two subjects almost always come up together?
    Again, nothing about the legal fight. I’m just feeling even believers have been jaded against the sacredness of human life when we continually compare animal rights to human rights.

  119. Scott,
    P.S.
    If you were speaking directly to me and my tree frog comment, I respectfully disagree with your use of the words;
    distorted,manipulative,rhetoric, propaganda,demonize and “no place in a Christian discussion”.
    I do not believe my opinion warrants your use of these words. I enjoy reading many other’s insights whether I agree with them or not (including yours) and respect their opinion without this harsh language. I am sorry if I offended you.

  120. Posted by Emily on November 21, 2008 at 10:50 pm

    I apologize for not posting sooner. As I mentioned earlier, my internet time is limited.

    However, I want to say that I appreciate and echo most of what Holly has said.

    I also think that with the issue of homosexuality, if you look at the Bible as a whole, considering all the places where sexuality, marriage, and homosexuality are covered, one can’t help but come to the conclusion that God created sex to be done only in a marriage relationship, and he only intended marriage to be one man and one woman. A person can think deep thoughts about this and debate modern and post-modern thinking all they want, and while it may be an interesting mental exercise, I don’t think it can be applied to this issue. Living a homosexual lifestyle is a sin. That’s not the end of the discussion, but it MUST be the paradigm that one begins with.

    In thinking about different kinds of Christianity today, It seems there are Christian churches that are more concerned with helping people create better lives here on earth than helping people make sure that they will be spending their eternal lives in heaven. I went off on Joel Osteen and Rick Warren previously. However, I think they reflect how some mainstream Christians have shifted in their thinking. Like I said, it’s about Your Best Life Now, not your life to come. I think that’s a sad and dangerous focus.

    Furthermore, Christians hear a lot about social causes and making a difference in the world. (I liked Holly’s “save the tree frogs” analogy.) I suspect that many people think that being a Christian is just about being a good person. But it’s so much more than that. You can be as good as Mother Teresa, but if you don’t believe in Jesus as your Savior from sin, you’re still on a path for an eternity in hell.

    It’s definitely easier to believe in a loving God who accepts everyone for who they are and doesn’t ask anyone to change (thinking of homosexuality here, but it could be applied to other things, too). But that’s not the God of the Bible. God isn’t just Santa Claus, a kindly old man who says, “Ho ho ho! Those crazy kids down there! I’ll just pat them on the head and send them all to heaven no matter what they do.” No, God demands perfection from people. God says, “Be holy, just as I the Lord your God am holy.” But we aren’t holy. “All have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God.” We NEED a Savior, and I fear that need for a Savior isn’t talked about much in Christian churches these days. Talking about sin is uncomfortable, and we live in a society that doesn’t like to offend anyone. But it does people no good for their eternal salvation to ignore these essential elements of true Christian faith. In fact, ignoring the reality of eternity might even mean some people, people who thought they were Christians here on earth, might end up in hell.

    My husband preached on this topic last Sunday, using the text of Jesus’ parable of the Wise and Foolish Virgins. You can read his sermon here: http://pastorstrey.wordpress.com/2008/11/16/sermon-on-matthew-25/ What struck him as he studied the text is that this parable is written only about Christians. Christians are represented by the 10 virgins; we’re all waiting for Christ, the Bridegroom. But the parable shows that we’re not all ready. And on the Last Day, there are going to be a lot of Christians who are going to be found not ready, who are going to be begging to be let in to heaven, but who will be told by Jesus, “I don’t know you.”

    This particular discussion really reminds me of that parable. I fear there are people who have lost their focus on the Savior, and instead are focused on things other that Christ while still thinking that they’re following Jesus. But, as this parable points out, there are going to be a lot of people on the Last Day who thought they were Christians but really didn’t have saving faith in their hearts. That’s sobering, and it’s caused me to take a good hard look at my faith this past week.

    ~ Emily

  121. Posted by Emily on November 21, 2008 at 11:23 pm

    Molly said about the WELS, the church body to which I belong: Anytime one group says that their group has The Correct Interpretation, and thusly insinuates that all the other groups do not have the Holy Spirit to teach them or are disobeying the Holy Spirit, I start looking for my running shoes. Which is not to say that I don’t believe in absolute truth. Not at all. It’s just that I don’t believe that a group of fallible *human beings* can be in full possession of all absolute truth.

    I completely agree with that.

    So, why am I a WELS member? I have become convinced, through meeting my husband, and thereby meeting many other pastors, professors and missionaries that I would not have had opportunity to meet otherwise, that WELS bases it’s doctrine solely on the Bible, and in doing so, it offers the closest to absolute truth that can be found. It’s not perfect, but it’s the closest to pure doctrine that we’ve been able to find.

    I know that at Seminary, my husband and his fellow classmates were taken back to the Scriptures in every doctrine class. They were taught nothing simply because “that’s what the church has historically believed,” (not like the thing on the Roman Catholic Church I watched on PBS the other night where some priest blandly said, “I must adhere to what my church fathers have instruced me to believe!” Gah, man! Think for yourself! Read the Bible on your own for once! Anyway, I digress…) No, these Seminarians were trained to always go back to the Bible for their doctrine, back to the original languages that the Bible was written in. Now, while I was almost ready to leave the WELS when I first met my husband, I am now a strong believer in the Christianity practiced by my church body as a whole.

    And, just for the record, WELSians don’t believe that they will be the only ones going to heaven. (Even though there are some older WELS pastors who sometimes insinuate that when they preach. Sigh.) However, it IS important to hold to correct teaching, and to hold to as much correct teaching as possible. And the problem with false teaching is that it tends to lead to more false teaching … and somewhere down the line, true faith is lost. Where that line is, only God knows, but it’s a slippery slope that Christians shouldn’t want to play on. We WELSians certianly don’t like to play there! :) So we really emphasize holding to the truth of the Scriptures.

    The analogy often used is one of water: Pure Christian doctrine is like a glass of pure water. When false teaching creeps in, it’s like adding a little dirt to the glass of pure water. A little dirt probably won’t hurt you. But how much dirt is too much? Do we even want to experiment to see how much dirt the Church can handle? Of course not.

    So, yes, I’m a stickler for Truth, and I probably need to work more on the Love end of things. In fact, I’ve often thought that is the WELS’s one big shortcoming – we’re good on Truth but not so much on Love. But I also believe that the invisible Christian Church is like the body of Christ, with all different parts that serve different purposes. I believe the role of the WELS is to help keep to the pure Truth, and I feel blessed to be part of that church body. God puts people where he wants them, and I am grateful to have been placed here. I hope I can do a small role in helping bring more of the Love into our church without sacrificing Truth. It’s a very tricky balance, as this whole discussion is pointing out.

    WELS is not be perfect, and we may not have our doctrine all absolutely right, but I think we’re pretty close, and we’re definitely worth taking a second look at. And if you need one more reason to check out your local WELS church, we sing some fantastic hymns! ;)

    ~ Emily

  122. I sure wish I could go in and edit my comments! I want to ammend my last comment above to address Scott M(as apposed to plain Scott). I finally found Holly’s original (I think) “tree frog” reference and again I’m not sure how you came to your conclusions you did, Scott M. Your statements are underpinned with assumptions of intent that I believe are not accurate. As so to be a constructive conversation I just want to understand where you are coming from. Thanks so much.

  123. Posted by Holly on November 22, 2008 at 5:30 am

    Wow, Scott. That is a lot to respond to. :) I’ll think about it thru the day and just overlook your pejorative descriptions of my viewpoints. It’s okay…I mean that. I’m getting tougher skin.

    I wanted to plant a little asterisk and ask a question:

    *what about the concept that once gay marriage is accepted into our national law, celebrated in our city halls, and taught as equal in our schools – the next step is the push to accept polygamy, incest, and marriage to our favorite pets? Where do we stop? Polygamists have more ground to stand on, Biblically – so there is really nothing to stop that way of life from becoming acceptable into law. We’ve come to accept that many gays make wonderful parents – truly – and it seems a natural progression to see that it would be good for children to have many mommies. Why discriminate? Then, why not let ol’ Jim Bob marry his daughter…after all, they do love each other. On what grounds should they not marry?

    Yes, sexual sin is just another sin – why do Christians and churches get so hung up on it rather than gluttony? Sexual sins have greater social consequences. They do, despite Scott’s derision, break down the family. Society rises or falls on the state of the family. (And no, I don’t just mean Doug Phillip’s type of family, for those who are wondering…)

    Gluttony affects the individual, and the individual’s family, and perhaps the healthcare system. Sexual sin directly affects children – and that’s not limited to only homosexual sin. Adultery, pornography, lust, incest, divorce…these deeply affect children for LIFE, affect their future families, affect marriages, and society for the ill. That’s the difference, in my view. Sure, churches should not be hypocritical, and should address other sin…but that is why they stand so strongly (or should) against sexual sins of all kinds. We are to have *not even a hint* of sexual impropriety about us.

  124. Posted by Holly on November 22, 2008 at 6:05 am

    And now, regarding the modern v postmodern thang, Mizz Molly. (I’m one of those rednecks you are called to love…but I’m not racist.)

    Ummmm….maybe! That was a fascinating group of words you done went and strung together! I did find myself nodding in agreement to much of what you said. It really could be what we are sensing. Time will tell.

    On the other hand – I’m still not understanding the benefit of tossing our social mores as we head into the next “era.” (By that I mean the call to let the state issue civil marriage licenses and the churches to issue religious licenses. That takes something that is entrenched and rewrites it.) I’m not sure as to what good we would do to lift all restrictions on abortion (thus abandoning the legal process….Scott….) (And I’d further like to note that we DID have a good chance of overturning Roe in the next decade and sending it back to the states. It took 100 years to defeat slavery as an institution! How many times did Wilberforce keep bringing that legislation back before the people? Why not just work to REDUCE slavery….and let me connect the dots to abortion, here, in the even I’m being unclear. NOW, we have almost NO legislative chance of overturning ANYTHING abortion related. We are set to fling open the doors of choice and federal funding. I know we’ve already had these conversations, and they do inflame passions. I don’t mean to do that – again – but it seems worth saying in response to Scott’s comments.

    Back to the “shift” many of us have felt. It is amazing to stand as a highly vested observer as civilization makes that tilt to post-modern. (or global. or postal. just kidding. sort of. I’m on my early morning caffeine buzz.) Again, I believe one’s view of eschatology matters immensely. It doesn’t have to be defeatist (Val, my friend…) nor fearful (Tonia, my other friend.) We can’t choose our eschatology based upon how it makes us feel – we base it upon what we believe to be true. We’re not the only ones “buzzing” about this amazing time in history. These conversations are taking place all over the world! I have a friend that sends me her insider links into the Muslim world – global and black American Muslim. Wow. Are they ever riled up! They aren’t all that pleased with Obama now that they are looking at his policies and his appointments. (Which I’d like to also point out are largely retreads from the Clinton Whitehouse. Change? Nah. Not really. ) These are interesting times.

    Regardless of where we stand in history, I do know that God is not done with Christians nor the Church. He has much to do in these times in which we live, which is very exciting. I have promised the Lord that I would pray for Barack Obama every day of his presidency, and to try to listen and do whatever He (God) tells me that I need to be doing. (Right now I think he is saying…get up off that chair and go make oatmeal for your poor children…)

    Have a great day, everyone.

    Love, over all, in Christ to each one of you.

  125. Posted by Scott M on November 22, 2008 at 7:53 am

    This was the original tree frog statement (or at least the first one I saw):

    The new way says that “sin” is not protecting tree frogs. Abortion is no longer sin.

    To my eyes that looked liked a rhetorical effort to caricature the opinion or belief of another into something it never was in order to attack the ridiculous caricature rather than the actual belief. We see that a lot and I suppose I’m immediately suspicious when I see something like it.

    Now, if anyone does personally know people who proclaim Jesus of Nazareth as Lord of heaven and earth and who have a higher regard for animal life than for human life (beings created as eikons of God), then I apologize for my reaction to the statement. I don’t personally know anyone like that, though I do know a number of disciples of Jesus who do have a high regard for all of creation. And as someone who has undergone many shifts, often radical, in perception over the last decade plus as I’ve tried to follow this Jesus, I have a difficult time grasping how anyone arrives at that point. But if there are actual Christians who do believe that and you are accurately portraying their belief, I’ll accept they somehow exist somewhere. If there is such a path, I’m pretty surprised I’ve never encountered a believer who has ended up in such a place. I live in a pretty eco-friendly area. And I do have some non-Christian friends who might trend to care more about our planet than about individual human lives if they aren’t lives that are personally dear to them.

    So if anyone does actually know a follower of Jesus who doesn’t just think that tree frogs are important, but who believes the life of a tree frog is more important than the life of an eikon of God, I can only say I’m sorry for my strong reaction. That’s alien to my experience and understanding and I’ll have to shift to allow for it. More likely I’ll just put it in the bin of things I don’t understand until or unless I actually encounter someone like that myself.

    Several thoughts on the legal efforts. I admire Wilberforce and his entire effort. But the entirety of his efforts were not simply changing a law. He worked to affect change toward greater humanitarian ends at multiple levels. Along the journey toward abolition he worked to alter public opinion about slavery (an essential prerequisite) and to alter underlying conditions that supported slavery. (Interestingly, given the above discussion, he also founded the SPCA.)

    The problem with the way in I’ve seen the legal ‘efforts’ progress in the US is that it looks very little like Wilberforce’s model. Instead, many of those who proclaim a theoretical and purely legal objection to abortion often not only do not support, but outright oppose efforts to enact social changes that would support alternatives and reduce the pressure on women to have abortions. I’m a one-time teen father. In some ways this is personal. I had to face the spectre of that choice. And there were certainly those who thought that’s what we should have done. We chose otherwise and ‘Christianity’ had nothing really to do with it. This is one of the few areas where my perspective has not changed hugely, though the reasons behind that perspective have changed.

    Frederica Mathewes-Green says it well. By and large, women choose abortion like a wild animal chooses to gnaw through its own leg to escape a trap. They’ve studied this and though I forget the exact percentage, the overwhelming majority of women who have had abortions had it because someone they loved and trusted told them that’s what they should do. It could be their boyfriend, their husband, their mother, but someone moved or even pushed them in that direction. Over the years, we’ve had friends who have had abortions, even when we did all we could to offer alternatives. And in every case, that was true. (In personal experience, usually the husband pressuring, but that’s probably because our circle included more married people than unmarried.)

    So far, we have been forced to choose in this country behind at least theoretical legal support against abortion coupled with policies and attitudes that increase the pressures to have abortions versus those who do not support the legal fight as it has been waged, but who do support real, tangible help against those pressures. If I’m forced to choose between those options, I’ll choose the latter every time.

    It also seems to me that most people have not even really thought through the legal changes they desire. We will never (I hope!) have a court composed of a majority of strict constructionists like Scalia and Thomas, whomever appoints justices. Without such justices, the essential underpinning of Roe v. Wade, a finding of an implicit right to privacy in the Constitution, is likely to stand. And to be honest, I’m not entirely sure I like the idea of the highest court of our land determining that we have no constitutionally protected right to privacy. Given that, it’s extremely unlikely that Roe v. Wade will ever be overturned entirely. The most that will happen is some sort of decision returning some portion of the legislative control of abortion, probably within certain parameters, to the states.

    Now, I don’t think that’s necessarily a bad thing. However, the cultural landscape has dramatically altered over the last 35 years and frankly, those fighting the most vocally against abortion have alienated much of the public with their tactics and rhetoric. They have not done the sort of work Wilberforce and his peers did to alter the perception of their society. Since legislation is largely driven by that broader public sentiment, that’s not a good thing. They have not laid the essential groundwork for the next step after an altered Roe v. Wade decision.

    So I’m not going to support people who support a doctrine of aggressive war, who have supported policies and practices allowing torture, who enact almost Darwinian social policies structured for the survival (and enrichment) of the fittest (or at least the most privileged), and who do not act where possible to protect and nurture the creation for which we are responsible just because they assert support for this particular legal battle against abortion.

    And so far, those are the choices we’ve largely been offered. As someone who tries, however poorly, to follow Jesus, if they want me to vote differently, they’re going to have to give me better choices. It’s as simple as that.

    Holly, I disagree with your assertion that gluttony effects only the individual. Gluttony, in its many forms (certainly not just food), is a symptom of being ruled by our passions. And when we are ruled by our passions, we act in progressively anti-social ways. When we build a society ruled by our passion to consume, we collectively build a systemic power which does broad evil in order to feed our passion. The ‘family’ as the linchpin of ’society’ is not even a Christian argument. It looks very much like one of the Roman philosophical arguments. Curious.

    But once again, I’m more interested here in the specific situation. I know gay men and women who have been in committed relationships for decades. I know gay families who have children. If one person in such a family begins to encounter the Christ, how do you respond to that person and what do you do? So far, I’ve not seen a response from those who broadcast an identity of opposing homosexuality that looks anything to me like love and that will do anything to bring that family closer to communion with Jesus and others. There are no easy or simplistic answers. But we’ve got the hospital and we at least claim to know the doctor personally and that he’s been treating us successfully. I think sometimes we have to simply be willing to let the doctor sort things out. Our job is to do the best we can to willfully act for their good and when asked to let people know we do it because we follow Jesus. And we trust him.

  126. Thank you for your clarification Scott M. I personally know several “proclaimers of Christ” (as you describe it) that are strong (I think overly) on animal rights but are also pro abortion and see nothing wrong with it. Do you not know any believers who do not see any problem with abortion? I assure you they are out there. I know some personally. It’s not that they feel we need to reach hearts instead of trying to overturn Roe v. Wade, they just completely agree with abortion and it doesn’t bother them. But these same people are gut wrenched when animals have been abused. I just don’t connect with this. Thanks again for so nicely trying to see my side although I realize you really, really had to stretch yourself. :) Now the whole Wilberforce info is calling me to contemplate- thats good stuff. Have a good day.

  127. Posted by Holly on November 22, 2008 at 10:22 am

    Quickly, Scott, because NOW my children want lunch…. :) (Always, always…they want the food….)

    Christians who push for legislation to protect the environment – but who vote for people who will lift restrictions on abortion – seem to me like they are elevating the environment above the child in the womb.

    I’m “all about” loving and caring for our world. I think it should have a decent priority….but I’d rather do it in tandem with caring for the child and the mother. (Which is sounds like you also advocate, as well. Kudos.)

  128. Posted by Holly on November 22, 2008 at 10:36 am

    Okay…they can wait just a minute.

    Scott, I wanted to be sure and come back here and let you know that I do appreciate the time that you take to thoughtfully put into your responses. It is easy to see that you have thought through your stances on what you believe, and for all of the areas in which we disagree, I can see that you love God, too.

    I have heard what you said – I have listened, okay? Hopefully I have shared my thoughts and beliefs, too, so I don’t feel a need to continue with presenting any arguments (for lack of a better word.)

    I wish you well – see you in another comment box on another day. (I’m confident that will happen, because Molly is playing such a great hostess to these conversations. ) :)

  129. so many good things here. from Scott’s comment a ways up there: If your ideology does offer an answer that seems likely to bring that person (and perhaps the entire person’s family, including children) into greater communion with Christ, if it does not offer a response that looks and feels and tastes like something which is actively willing the good for that person and that person’s family, then I’m not going to be much interested in your ideology. I’m sorry, but that’s just the way it is. Sometimes we really do just have to bring people to Jesus and let him sort things out.

    i really think this is essential to the discussion. it’s not about being afraid to stand for a biblical standard (which, at this point, i am reading and listening, but i am not persuaded that God allows homosexual sex) but it’s realizing that we – as the church – need a new paradigm for allowing people to be made whole in Christ.

    i am completely comfortable with letting the Holy Spirit work at His own pace in the lives of each believer. that may be the place where i see the modern/postmodern line of thinking most at odds here: the modernist seems to be most concerned with steps being done in the right order and adhering to lines and rules and standards that must be upheld – with real concern about “losing ground” we’ve “won.” the postmodern mind seems more open to a long arc – a journey, if you will – with no real need for things to be polished up and perfect as long as the arc is towards Christ. they also seem able to accept the unknown qualities of the journey as long as Christ’s first and ultimate command to love one another is upheld.

  130. Posted by wysiwyg on November 22, 2008 at 10:44 am

    I wasn’t planning on posting anymore on this thread, but WOW! Tonia, what you said sums up a lot and makes a great deal of sense to me. Nice, tidy nutshell! Thanks

  131. Holly wrote…

    LRO, I leave room for future sincere and conclusive scientific research.

    Thanks for reading what I had to say. I too hope that we get more sincere science.

    Do you know what troubles me, though? I am tender for the individuals who have struggled – everyone has struggled in some way. THAT IS FOR SURE! :)
    I’m frustrated by the “trendy” homosexuality. Here in our local highschool, it is the cool thing to be, to do, to experiment with.

    That bothers me too! The ‘trendiness’ stuff really sets the GLBTQ community back “oh, yeah, it was just a phase” confuses people who know someone for whom it is *not* just a phase. I have genuine compassion for those who are confused, and I understand that high school is a really confusing time (especially when your body is so hormonal can respond to pretty much anything). But I also totally reject the “hook-up” culture and things associated with it.

    I know the argument has been made that there is no agenda within the public school system – but there truly is. It is pushed on very young, and very confused children. It is aggressive, and wrong – and causes much confusion in developing children.

    I don’t know your community so I can’t say what kind of agenda might be pushed there. I can say that here in NZ, there’s not so much of one. It might vary from community to community. I think people are still finding their balance, and yes there will be extremists on both sides of the issue who want to control what’s taught to kids. It is scary, and I appreciate that.

    I want you to know, personally, that I appreciate you being so open. It must be hard for you and must have been hard for you over the years…and yet, you still kindly continue to explain how it feels for you and what is is like to be in your shoes. That takes a lot of strength. You – especially you, friend, are very warm and loving and are appreciated.

    Thank you. It can be very difficult. I do it because 1) I believe that God has called me to do so. He made Himself so vulnerable in Christ, I believe that Christians especially are called to make themselves vulnerable to each other*

    2) Who knows? Maybe someone’s only other perception of gay people are those throwing condoms in a church.** There are very few headlines that say “Lesbians Make Menu Plan and Grocery List” or “Lesbian Couple Enjoys Snuggles from Godsons.” When some of my conservative friends hear “gays do this” etc. I hope that they will picture me and maybe think twice about generalising what gays do and don’t do, want and don’t want.

    3) I believe that people really want to understand each other’s point of view, even if they end up disagreeing. I have to believe this because otherwise I’ll go insane watching the news, etc.

    And thank you for listening to me.

    *Obviously excluding abusive situations, etc. Sometimes to the world too, but to other Christians especially.

    ** “gay” is merely a sexual orientation not a dictate of everything in your life — for a dated but highly readable conseravtive view I recommend “A Place at the Table” by Bruce Bawer. Basically the opposite of ACTUP.

  132. Posted by Deborah on November 22, 2008 at 11:54 am

    Left Right Out,

    Hi, I just now saw your post to me. This thread is getting over-active, I believe :) .

    As for what you described as a “parent trap,” most lesbians I’ve known have themselves attributed their orientation to these issues, in whole or part, although I know not all do. I wasn’t trying to put the mold on them. So when I met one who did not but who indicated a lot about her mom, I wondered. I did not assume though.

    I do not have access to studies I have previously looked at, nor the time to try to find if they are online. I am guessing if your wife is a geneticist (who no doubt knows many sociologists as well), you have probably looked into most studies already yourself and drawn your own conclusions.

    I fully appreciate the variety of potential causes (insofar as I know them and respect the research; my father is a scientific researcher whose initial studies were in the field of psychology but who then left it for other areas for his masters and doctorates, so I have some background out of which to judge studies) and had mentioned the hormonal things as well. I also mentioned one that science would not: generational spiritual ties. In my own story, as mentioned in this thread, I had almost nightmarish videos of words and thoughts that I could not turn off and was subject to at random times for quite awhile as a heterosexual with some sort of generational homosexual “soul ties” that caused me to be ultra-sensitive to homosexual activities. It was like I kept walking into sticky glue. During this time I also had lesbians hitting on me in ways that were extremely disrespectful of my space, to me abusive and disgusting really. So it must have emanated. If I had struggled with actually wanting their attentions, I’m sure it would have been an even more tormenting time yet. I didn’t know what was up and wouldn’t learn of my generational history for years yet, but I knew (even if I could not put words to it) that there was some spiritual thing that was trying to draw me.

    As for people wanting to change and the journeys many of us are on in healing…. I have gone through enough inner healing in my life as to know not everything is instantaneous. I do not judge those who want healing but are finding impediments. I do not understand what their path is supposed to look like. BUT I would never caution them to stop the journey or to act on desires that the Bible does not sanction. And perhaps they will not find it or not a full degree of healing. Perhaps basic Christian growth and celibacy are what they will need to focus on–period. Indefinitely. Ouch? But even that is, I must believe (even for my own life), the gospel–truly good news for humans who do not know what is best for ourselves.

    I know of one late healing minister, Agnes Sanford, who claimed to never have someone slip through the cracks (witnessed a complete change in orientation after only one or maybe two prayers with each!!), and I’ve been around enough who have drawn from her as to trust that report and wish to have a similar grace in prayer. But I hadn’t personally met her and realize there aren’t a league of Agnes Sanfords walking around willing and able to so effectively come alongside every homosexual struggler.

    When I mentioned those who “want” to heal, I was speaking strictly in the secular context and of those days when psychologists would treat homosexuals who came to them with a request that they help them change (as opposed to those who did not). At the same time there is an application among those in or approaching the Christian community who come for help. I would be stupid not to acknowledge the presence of the fact that some do not want or fully want to repent (goodness knows, haven’t we all experienced that at times with a pet sin or one that makes us feel safe to fall back into, like lying b/c it was the only way you knew how to manage your formative situations?). And even though I do not pretend to know the depths of any man’s heart, just as you can tell when someone is coming up with every excuse in the book to avoid applying God’s convictions to them regarding finances or gossip, SOMETIMES you can see plenty of signs that someone is not really wanting to change on sexual matters. And, for any sin, sometimes you can see other unrelated sin issues standing like roadblocks in the path. Again, this is a very sensitive one, not one where I would wish to apply anything but the very clearest, surest discernment in coming to that conclusion. And just because someone is not finding that change of orientation which would come from a combination of repentance and God-given healing is not a reason to assume this of them.

    Bottom line, no matter how we dice up the discussion of biology, sociology, psychology, healing through Christ, etc.: I cannot call acting on the orientation or not applying an effort and asking God to help to fight obsession with like sexual thoughts (just as with the flights of my hetero thoughts which I must contend with and the many issues I have had to work through in order for them to be more disciplined) anything but sin no matter how nice or right it feels, no matter how much true loyalty and affection may lie between the individuals in a committed couple, and no matter how much good they may seek to bring to the world as a homosexual unit. I don’t really see a point in arguing on all of the specifics of these categories when it is apparent that none of it could cause us to agree on the bottom line save a new conviction from God’s Word and Spirit. I really do appreciate your gracious interaction with me on our opposing views and your transparency before all of us here. Thank you.

  133. Posted by Liesl on November 22, 2008 at 11:58 am

    To be honest I really don’t know what is meant by modern vs. post-modern thinking. What’s important to me is Jesus and the salvation for eternal life he brings first and then the better life on earth. That is timeless. The Bible is timeless. We were created first for a relationship with God and then we are to spread the gospel which means good news – Jesus saves – to those who think spreading the gospel isn’t important…….and the way to a relationship with God is thru salvation in Jesus.

    Scott, throughout this thread I’ve seen responses, including mine, that have shown how those who oppose homosexuality do so in love. I am surprised by your comment and probably saddended if people you know don’t show love to people in sin. My church has nutured gay men on their deaths beds with AIDS with the love of Christ. Welcomed and hugged and prayed – many gay people in our church have become Christians and turned their life around. Please do not be mistaken that simply opposing homosexuality and claiming it as sin is not loving. May I ask you a question – do you consider yourself a Christian – a follower of Christ – your comments perplex me in that you quote alot of biblical scholars but I’m not certain if you do so to be educated or if you seek a Christian life. By the way, I’ve come in contact with plenty of people who cry over animals being tortured for use in cosmetics but have no problem with abortion. This goes along with why I am conservative politically – priorities are right – babies first and then animals.

    Left Right Out – This probably offends you us saying homosexual sex is sin. You asked is it about the sex or the relationship. It is about the sex. I’m confused as how you follow the Bible about ceilibacy until marriage, but not in regard to homosexuality. My heart feels for you. I sincerely do. I sense you have a very kind heart. May God be with you.

    I must say this thread has been an eye opening experience for me to see so many different views on scripture. There is room for interpretation in some areas such as cultural things from the Bible. But I don’t see any reconciling of homosexuality. Every verse in the Bible regarding it claims it as sin. There are absolutely no examples of gay marriage in the Bible. Marriage in the Bible is defined by one man and one woman. Some have said that “biblical scholars” don’t agree on if homosexuality is a sin. Jesus says not every one who calls on him in the day of judgement will be saved.

    Pondering some thoughts, alot of people who are gay openly reject Christianity. Even with the greatest of love shown to them. What troubles me is not the gay person seeking Christ but having a hard reconciling his desires. It is the blatant homosexual that is part of an organized agenda that includes teaching homosexual sex in schools, pornographic parades, improper displays of affection (i.e the gay couple making out at Disney World in front of my 6 year old niece in such a way worse than a boy and girl immature teenager), the affirmative action insisting people hire someone based on sexual orientation, and more. If we subsituted any other sin and promoted it we’d be considered wrong. Or maybe not as very few things are considered wrong these days, even by those who claim to follow Christ.

    Holly and Emily I really appreciate your comments and your committment to the word of God and I see you do so in love. I don’t know how much more of this thread I can read, it makes my heart heavy.

    Molly, as always thank you for your gracious accomodation of varying thoughts.

  134. Deborah wrote…

    During this time I also had lesbians hitting on me in ways that were extremely disrespectful of my space, to me abusive and disgusting really.

    I am extremely sorry about this. Crudity and agression are really not limited by gender.

    When I mentioned those who “want” to heal, I was speaking strictly in the secular context and of those days when psychologists would treat homosexuals who came to them with a request that they help them change (as opposed to those who did not

    Okay, that makes more sense. I am sorry I misinterpreted your words.* Thank you for taking the time to explain things further for me.

    *I am especially sensitive to this right now because I am talking to a young woman who has been told by a man that he has a 100% success rate with people who *really* want to change, and that he can change her — for $100 per hour. I think this is extremely abusive. For the record I am telling her that she should *not* have a relationship while she feels homosexuality is wrong and she needs to determine God’s will.

  135. Left Right Out,

    I have to agree with Deborah, your transparency and graciousness are so appreciated. thank you for sharing yourself here.

  136. Liesl wrote…

    Left Right Out – This probably offends you us saying homosexual sex is sin.

    I don’t know that I’m “offended” — I didn’t start commenting here expecting my marriage to be affirmed! :0) I am saddened by it, but mostly I just wanted to.. actually I forget what my original comment in this thread was! I think wanted to give a pciture of what the is actually being asked of GLBTs when you ask them fro a lifetime of celibacy

    You asked is it about the sex or the relationship. It is about the sex.

    To me this feels like (and please correct me if I’m wrong) it reduces my marriage to being about sex. My reasons that C is more than a “friend” don’t just have to do with our physical relationship. That enhances our intimacy, it doesn’t cause it or replace it. We have a, for lack of a better term, “spousal intimacy” of mind and heart that I’m not sure would be possible with a friend, no matter how close. Am I making any sense here?

    I’m confused as how you follow the Bible about ceilibacy until marriage, but not in regard to homosexuality.

    I was totally “convicted” about celibacy outside of marriage! I grew up thinking and being taught that sex should be reserved for someone special, but that someone doesn’t have to be your spouse, and then one day, boom! God told me to check my Bible and I did and came to the conclusion that sex outside of marriage is wrong. I have had that feeling about other things before, and it’s a relief and a gladness when God changes your mind, even when you have to humble yourself to someone you’ve been debating, you know? I’ve never had that sort of conviction about homosexuality.

    My heart feels for you. I sincerely do. I sense you have a very kind heart. May God be with you.

    Thank you. That’s the best thing we can wish for anybody.

    There is room for interpretation in some areas such as cultural things from the Bible. But I don’t see any reconciling of homosexuality.

    I’ve actually been deliberately avoiding specific interpretations of Biblical verses, because talk about a way to hijack a thread! But if you go to my blog there are some resources on my sidebar. I particularly recommend Jeramy T’s website.

    What troubles me is not the gay person seeking Christ but having a hard reconciling his desires. It is the blatant homosexual that is part of an organized agenda that includes teaching homosexual sex in schools,

    Yes, I can see why that would trouble you! The degree of offense to me would depend on the content of the sex education program in general (I am firmly in favour of age-appropriate sex ed that covers emotions as well as physical stuff).

    pornographic parades, improper displays of affection (i.e the gay couple making out at Disney World in front of my 6 year old niece in such a way worse than a boy and girl immature teenager),

    This sort of stuff drives me nuts. I really dislike the more explicit floats at the gay pride parades (and probably wouldn’t take our child to one for that reason), and I am firmly against PDAs that include more than hugs and a peck on the cheek or lips. I think it’s just rude. But I don’t think it’s limited to gay people — just that we notice it more and it gets more media attention. If these people were straight they’d find some other way to do stuff like that, you know?

    the affirmative action insisting people hire someone based on sexual orientation, and more

    It might be annoying that I’m always asking this, but… can you cite specific cases?

    I pray that God can use this thread to bring you closer to Him, whether it’s by giving you new things to think about, or strengthening your own convictions, or both, etc.

  137. I have to agree with Deborah, your transparency and graciousness are so appreciated. thank you for sharing yourself here

    Thank you for letting me know. Everyone here has been very grace-filled, I think.

  138. Posted by Liesl on November 22, 2008 at 2:44 pm

    LRO – Oh I want to apologize because I didn’t intend to imply that your relationship with your spouse was only based on sex. I can see how you have a deep relationship beyond sex. I think I was trying to answer that when you asked what was wrong about gay relationships if it was about the sex – and that’s what I was saying, yes the sex.

    There hasn’t been a law passed yet for affirmative action for gays and lesbians. It is an idea tossed about by the liberals.

    I agree with you about the man who wants to help your friend for a $100 and hour. That is abusive. in our church counseling and help are free and it’s only Christ’s love that impacts. That’s what I extend to you.

  139. Posted by Deborah on November 22, 2008 at 3:08 pm

    LRO,

    Thanks for a gracious response. As for the woman you are counseling, the whole matter of paying a lot of money for spiritual/psych. help is tricky. I don’t know if you are talking about a ministerial professional or a psychological professional or both. Understandably anyone claiming 100% success would be suspect as well for the potential pushiness/shaming that could come with this scenario and the increased potential for financial manipulation to be involved.

    I have both received free sessions for some things I needed help with and payed exorbitant fees to Christian ministers (but was only willing to do the latter when I was both able and felt like I would support their ministry wholeheartedly and so viewed the fee as a ministry donation). Some ministers, if it is a minister you are speaking of, are led to operate “by faith,” and some in order to fund both their own finances and their opportunities to teach others how to do what they do, charge a lot. For instance, I got some “deliverance” work done once at high fees more than comparable to the one you quote, but the team had flown across the country to spend a week giving a small group of ministers in-depth training. They had a lot they needed to fund. I did not regret that payment but have regretted others. I hate it when the church rips people off, is manipulative about it, stewards the money inappropriately, etc. I say all this in case the guy really is good and your friend were to feel at peace about him in which case she might want to consider the investment. She should also feel like she can ask him or someone who works for him heartfelt questions in moderation without feeling their responses are defensive. So I do think there are instances where such fees can be appropriate, even if all too often such a plug is manipulative and abusive. Just my take.

  140. Liesl wrote…

    LRO – Oh I want to apologize because I didn’t intend to imply that your relationship with your spouse was only based on sex. I can see how you have a deep relationship beyond sex. I think I was trying to answer that when you asked what was wrong about gay relationships if it was about the sex – and that’s what I was saying, yes the sex.

    Sorry! I was following a line of though that I now see was wrong, and I apologise for that.

    There hasn’t been a law passed yet for affirmative action for gays and lesbians. It is an idea tossed about by the liberals.

    I would disagree with this and can see how the idea would be frightening/annoying.

    I agree with you about the man who wants to help your friend for a $100 and hour. That is abusive. in our church counseling and help are free and it’s only Christ’s love that impacts. That’s what I extend to you.

    I have brought up the ide aof her going to her pastor for counselling before she tries this guy, but she didn’t seem responsive, so I dropped it. Thank you for your extension of Christ’s love. It means very much to me.

    Deborah wrote…

    So I do think there are instances where such fees can be appropriate, even if all too often such a plug is manipulative and abusive. Just my take.

    Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply there are no situations where payment would be appropriate. My red flag rose up because the idea he put forward that if it doesn’t work, it’s her fault because she doesn’t want it enough. If she’s paying him money and it’s not working, and he says it’s her fault it’s not working then logically she should continue woprking with him until it does work. No room for it not working because it’s not God’s timing, or they don’t mesh, ow whatever. The combination of paying and “it’s always the patients fault if it doesn’t work” is a bad one, in my opinion.

  141. Posted by Deborah on November 22, 2008 at 7:04 pm

    LRO, I agree and was attempting to say the same actually (about the high potential for shaming and manipulation and financial manipulation between his 100% claim and high fees). I also hadn’t realized he’d already put out the idea that it would be her fault if it didn’t work (too many words to read carefully in this thread, I’m afraid). That’s a huge red flag.

  142. [Have been busy today but wanted to stop in and say thank you to all of you, for providing us with such an interesting, informative and gracious conversation]…

  143. Posted by Holly on November 23, 2008 at 10:11 am

    Oh, I don’t know, Molly…

    Other than LRO’s love and kindness, there really hasn’t been much graciousness expressed from the progressive side.

    As one of the few traditional Christians here, my views on eschatology have been called toxic and narrow, my thoughts on gay marriage called “un-American,” my statements about the family as a building block of society have been called “un-Christian,” and I’m considered a part of the “fringe.”

    It’s okay…my feelings aren’t hurt. I’ve expressed love and a desire to find common ground in Christ, but it hasn’t exactly been a two way street. :)

    It’s all cool…but I’m just sayin’. :)

  144. Posted by Holly on November 23, 2008 at 10:12 am

    Did you turn on moderation, Molly? If not, I have a post that should be right above this one. :)

  145. It’s *unwanted* moderation. It has been nuts these past couple days…WP has been culling supposed “spam” right and left, and I have to go rescue it. It’s never done that before…I’m hoping it cools off already, already! :)

    Holly,
    I’m sorry if you’ve been hurt. I’m glad you stuck with the conversation anyway. Thanks, sistah. :)

    From my angle, I’ve seen some strong statements made on all sides… *shrugs* In your first paragraph just now, for example, you label those who disagree with you as “progressive Christians”, and non-traditional Christians.

    …You lable them with a label that they don’t use and don’t necessarily agree with. In fact, I am pretty sure 1% or less commenting here would agree with that label. I know that I don’t consider myself a progressive Christian. I appreciate some of the perspectives of progressives, but there are major areas where I do not agree with that movement and could not in good consience belong. (You do realize that when you use the term “progressive Christian,” you are saying that Scott, tonia, and the others who you do not agree with, do not believe that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, that He is only one of many ways…?).

    I don’t think you are intentionally trying to hurt or mischaracterize the beliefs of others. You are just sharing from the way you see things. I’m also fairly sure that you aren’t aware of the tenants of progressive Christianity, but perhaps you are. In any case, I would and do assume that you didn’t intend to be offensive, and I bet I would be right. :)

    Being on the recieving end of that comment *can* feel like a bit of a slam…if I decide to take it that way. But I decide not to. I’m trying to hear what you are saying behind the words you typed, if that makes any sense. :) In the same way, I’m going to assume that same thing of the other commenters, too, (ie, that they don’t mean to hurt) until there is ample proof that I am wrong.

    I think we’re all doing our best to try and be respectful of others. No one here has arrived, I’m sure, though some may be closer than others. If we continue to have the guts to participate in conversations like these, we’ll learn…we’ll screw up…we’ll grow. It’s all good. :)

  146. http://www.tcpc.org/about/8points.cfm
    The 8 Tenants of Progressive Christianity.
    (I like a lot of these…but there are some that, well, if I believed them, I wouldn’t bother being a Christian at all [ie, if Jesus isn't who He said He is, whatsthepoint?]).

  147. That was fascinating, Molly! I think I like number eight and number five, but that was it… I wouldn’t say that people have to become like me (one me is enough) but I would love them to become like the Jesus in me. The rest of that seems vague and wishy-washy. I have never heard that term, either – thank you for linking that.

    Lovely Holly, above you said:

    “It doesn’t have to be defeatist (Val, my friend…) nor fearful (Tonia, my other friend.) We can’t choose our eschatology based upon how it makes us feel – we base it upon what we believe to be true. We’re not the only ones “buzzing” about this amazing time in history.”

    I absolutely agree. We can’t choose our eschatology on how it makes us feel. I just do not see in scripture the whole rapture theory. It seems to me to go against the very nature of God, as well. What I see is the kingdom of God coming to earth, a restoration of the ages, not a ‘hang on by the skin of your teeth in this fallen world because soon we’re gettin; out of here!’. What is the point of that? Jesus preached thy kingdom come to earth as it is on heaven, and so much of scripture points to that, not to a getting out of here theology. It is actually harder to believe this way becauseour whole reason for existence is to futher the kingdom of God. That is my perspective, and why I called the other ‘defeatist theology’. :)

    Vxx

  148. Posted by wysiwyg on November 23, 2008 at 4:40 pm

    I have read so many different “labels” in these comments. I haven’t even heard of half of them. Didn’t even know there was something called “progressive Christianity”. Post modern and modern threw me too. We looove labels, don’t we?! :)

  149. Posted by Scott M on November 23, 2008 at 7:25 pm

    Actually I tend to distrust them. It’s one reason my posts tend to be long. I have this urge to try to unpack the meaning behind any label rather than trust that someone has the same understanding of the label which I do.

    But eventually we have to use some of the shorthand that labels give us or we can never actually say what we wanted to say in the first place.

  150. Posted by wysiwyg on November 23, 2008 at 7:33 pm

    What you say is very true. Especially about each of our own understanding of the different terms being used. That’s why I always try to remind myself everyone is coming from their own viewpoint even if we “share” a particular term/label. Not everyone thinks the same, even in the same group. I’m sure thats shown true in this comment thread. :)
    Again Scott, I have appreciated your comments (even the long ones) especially the ones I completely disagree with! That’s when I have food for thought.

  151. Friends,

    This is Scott or chewydad, a different person from Scott M. I agree with what he said though.
    *******
    One of my favorite bloggers is Andrew Sullivan at The Atlantic, who is gay. Check out THIS POST from last week.

    Here’s a quote or 2:

    Rod longs, as many do, for a return to the days when civil marriage brought with it a whole bundle of collectively-shared, unchallenged, teleological, and largely Judeo-Christian, attributes. Civil marriage once reflected a great deal of cultural and religious assumptions: that women’s role was in the household, deferring to men; that marriage was about procreation, which could not be contracepted; that marriage was always and everywhere for life; that marriage was a central way of celebrating the primacy of male heterosexuality, in which women were deferent, non-heterosexuals rendered invisible and unmentionable, and thus the vexing questions of sexual identity and orientation banished to the catch-all category of sin and otherness, rather than universal human nature.

    AND THIS

    If conservatism is to recover as a force in the modern world, the theocons and Christianists have to understand that their concept of a unified polis with a telos guiding all of us to a theologically-understood social good is a non-starter. Modernity has smashed it into a million little pieces. Women will never return in their consciousness to the child-bearing subservience of the not-so-distant past. Gay people will never again internalize a sense of their own “objective disorder” to acquiesce to a civil regime where they are willingly second-class citizens. Straight men and women are never again going to avoid divorce to the degree our parents did. Nor are they going to have kids because contraception is illicit. The only way to force all these genies back into the bottle would require the kind of oppressive police state Rod would not want to live under.

    But how do those who are ready to live in this modern world coexist with those who still believe that it is not only misguided but evil? And, of course, vice-versa? There is only one way.

    That way is to agree that our civil order will mean less; that it will be a weaker set of more procedural agreements that try to avoid as much as possible deep statements about human nature. And that has a clear import for our current moment. The reason the marriage debate is so intense is because neither side seems able to accept that the word “marriage” requires a certain looseness of meaning if it is to remain as a universal, civil institution. This is not that new. Catholics, for example, accept the word marriage to describe civil marriages that are second marriages, even though their own faith teaches them that those marriages don’t actually exist as such. But most Catholics are able to set theological beliefs to one side and accept a theological untruth as a civil fact. After all, a core, undebatable Catholic doctrine is that marriage is for life. Divorce is not the end of that marriage in the eyes of God. And yet Catholics can tolerate fellow citizens who are not Catholic calling their non-marriages marriages – because Catholics have already accepted a civil-religious distinction. They can wear both hats in the public square.

    The whole thing is very though provoking.

    Scott (or chewydad)

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