I’m helping someone I love work through the realities of what has been going on in her marriage. It is hard complex stuff. It is not fun. But as she laid her marriage dreams in the grave and stops denying the truth of her situation, she is beginning to find peace. I was musing tonight over some of the serious issues she has dealt with, and how difficult it is to accept the painful truth of WHAT IS, vs. what she wants or what the books promised she could have if only she’d do __[insert book's promise here]. I thought I’d ramble it out here tonight, these thoughts I am slowly formulating on abuse, on some of the ways we are destroyed without a fist ever being thrown, and, most importantly, on how love responds to abuse.
~~~

What do you do when a husband (or a church leader or a friend) says he is sorry, even repeatedly, never actually explaining what it is he’s sorry for, but expecting his general apology to result in your general all-encompassing forgiveness? What if you grow to hate their apologies, knowing that all they do is provide them with one more way to control you, to tell you what you can and can’t feel.
He says he is sorry while still engaging in destructive behavior towards you and defending his right to do so? How does that make sense? But you are too confused to understand what is going on. All you know is that his apologies take away your rights, not give them back.
What do you do if, after hurting you for the umpteenth time (not some little slight but actual violations of your personhood), they remind you that, hey, they’ve apologized, remember? To them, that nullifies your right to be in pain—and gives them the right to rebuke you for not being forgiving!
What do you do when he says you don’t have a right to be angry, that you don’t have a right to be hurt? What do you do when your abusive friend says that because her experience wasn’t painful, it must mean that your experience wasn’t either. (After all, it didn’t hurt her, right?).
If you say that it hurt you, the abusive person feels you are threatening his experience, his truth, so he works to defend his version at all costs. Because in his mind, only his experience if valid, and yours is competition. Oh, if you think you were hurting before, wait till he get through with you now—if you were expecting him to actually hear you, that is, if you were actually expecting him to love you more than he loves himself.
What do you do when the abusive person (the abusive church or parent or friend or spouse), changes the story, when he takes out what he did, forgets those violations of trust or refuses to acknowlege them, and rewrites your history together into a 50/50 problem, “just a difficulty in getting along, that’s all,” and nods approvingly when others start repeating that line. You might even be tempted not to mind so much, since it’s a vast improvement on the prior years when he was convinced that it was all your fault.
What do you do when he (or your church leader or your family member) despises you, hates you, because you finally got up the guts to make it stop—you’re sick 0f it and you’re not playing the twisted little games anymore—and at the very same time, talks about you as if he’s lived to please you, lived to make you happy, which, in a sense, he truly believes. (And is partly true. It’s not that it was 100% bad. It never was 100% bad). In fact, if you sit down over coffee with him and listen to his tale, your heart will probably brim over with pity for that poor dear soul who works so hard to try and make his wife (or congregant, or child) happy. How could anyone not appreciate such a tender gentle person, you’ll think?
Do tender gentle people tell their loved ones that they have to do humiliating things in order to prove their love? Do tender gentle people demand perfection from their loved ones, letting them know that they are never going to be satisfied with their efforts because their efforts will never be enough?
Do tender gentle people look with scorn on the rest of humanity, believing that no one is as wise as they are, and make it a point to let you know that you are lucky that you got them, that it’s a good thing you did or you’d have probably never made it? Do tender gentle people react with rage toward their loved one when their loved one expresses pain at the way they’ve been treated?
Do tender gentle people manipulate their loved ones into believing lies?
What do you do when they openly admit that they’ve lied to you—not just a little lie, but doing things like regularly lying to you and/or reinforcing previous lies? What if they lied to you about what “God” was telling them to do (meaning, if you didn’t do what they wanted you to do, you were disobeying God, because they lied to you and told you, repeatedly, that God was telling them such-n-such in order to guarantee that you would do what they wanted and stop asking pesky questions).
You were such a trusting little thing, weren’t you? You believed him/them. They kept telling you to trust him, admonishing you for your “rebellious” lack of trust. So finally you did. You wanted to be good, you wanted to love God, and you never thought, never in your wildest dreams, that this “godly man/church” would tell you anything other than the truth.
In fact, what do you do when you realize you’ve been conned, regularly, repeatedly, by someone who is literally a mastermind at manipulating? When years of your life were spent being lied to, being twisted, being played? When you thought you were giving your all to something that was living and good, and really your energies and your love and your spirit were being sucked down into a black hole that would never be satisfied, that could never get enough, that would always want more until it finally sucked out the last bit of life you had.
And when, because of your own warped view of what it means to be loving and gracious—perhaps even a view that would be perfectly healthy if you were dealing with a healthy spouse or a healthy church or a healthy friend—you knew that something was wrong, something didn’t feel right, yet, because you thought that love never stopped giving, you let it happen again, and then again, and then again, until it became so normal that you forgot it wasn’t.
I think you get away from that spouse or that church or that friend.
I think it doesn’t matter how nice they were that day. They might think that because they were nice today, because they were kind to you yesterday, because they were sweet three days ago, that you are wrong for getting far away from them. “You shouldn’t leave your church, you know. You shouldn’t leave your spouse. You shouldn’t reject your friend. Good people don’t do things like that.”
They might even be so nice, so charming, to all your friends and/or family, that they might put on a convincing act that makes you look like the bad guy for getting away, who knows? They are good at that kind of thing. And, to make it even more confusing and complex, some of the kindness is probably completely real. There is a very nice person or group in there. Very rarely are destructive people actually made of pure evil. This letter is not saying that the person or the group is all bad, that everything was 100% horrible. It’s just the parts that are damaging are so very very damaging.
They might get mad, then, that you still stay away. But the fact that they’re mad proves that nothing has really changed at all.

Zacchaeus repented, upon recieving the grace of a Messianic embrace, and promptly gave back four times what he had stolen. I think that loving a Zacchaeus is good. Jesus loved him before he repented, didn’t He? So we have it on record that a person who robs you blind is okay to love—but not to give your bank account password to. That would be stupid.
In like manner, a person who has abused you is okay to love. But not to give your heart to. Not to be in close proximity to, either. Which goes against the “good Christian” code. But, hey, you’ve already broken that code (the first time you put your foot down and said no), so what have you got to lose?
He or she is probably safe to be around when he’s repented. And that’s not that little “generic sorry” stuff they’ve been pulling since you’ve known them. Repented means actually repented: acknowleged what they’ve done, and brought you four times what they took from you. Repentance costs them, not you. And, if it’s the real thing, they’re even not going to mind if you flinch everytime they come near your heart for a while. Truly repentant people are like that. They get it.
So that’s kind of depressing, because how often do you think real repentance happens? Rarely. It takes guts. It takes a real and genuine person to do that kind of thing, because it feels like death. It feels like the worst thing in the world. It feels like it will kill them. The sad thing is, it’s the thing that will set them free. But that’s not what it feels like at first, and that’s exactly why it’s so rarely done. But, hey, some might. Maybe even your spouse. Maybe even your church leader. Maybe even your friend. Short stumpy Zacchaeus did it. So don’t lose hope altogether.
In the meantime, I don’t think you should have to listen to any more rebukes about your lack of grace or your lack of forgiveness or your lack of love. You are dealing with a person or a group who doesn’t understand those concepts in the first place, so of course they will think that you are wrong, of course they will think that you shouldn’t dare have boundaries, that you have no right to say that you’ve been deeply wounded.
Actually, I’ve changed my mind. Listen to their demands on that one thing, on love. Do work on being more loving. Please. But work on the real kind of loving, love that actually works for the good of it’s object. And that might mean the kind of love that delivers a deaf ear. And puts up, “No Trespassing” signs, shuts doors and locks them. The kind of love that draws clear boundaries and isn’t afraid of an abuser’s raging, lying, crying, or warped spiritual judgements.
What the object of your love needs is the kind of love that says no. Because, in this case, a love that says yes isn’t love. “Yes,” just hands over more bombs for the madman to launch, and, honey, there is nothing redemptive about being slowly destroyed.

















Posted by Three’s Company » Moved. on December 17, 2008 at 8:14 pm
[...] I think this woman has a real gift for writing, thinking. She says things the way I wish I could. This post, in particular, moved [...]
Posted by Kate on December 17, 2008 at 8:15 pm
I have to come out of lurk-dom to say…wow. You say things the way I wish I could. I have a friend I want to scream these things to, thank you for your eloquence and thoughtfulness.
Posted by Jae on December 17, 2008 at 8:40 pm
{{{{Sending prayers for your friend.}}}}
Posted by Deborah on December 17, 2008 at 8:47 pm
This may be a perfect resource for a situation that I am counseling. Thank you. Deb
Posted by Elizabeth Esther on December 17, 2008 at 9:43 pm
Here is a story that has helped me understand why it is OK for me to remove myself from hurtful people:
A boy had a bad habit of losing his temper. His father told him that every time he lost his temper he should go hammer a nail into the back fence. The boy threw many fits and hammered many nails. Eventually he realized that it was more work to throw a fit than hammer a nail. So he quit. A few days later he told his father he had stopped throwing fits. His father told him to remove a nail for each day that he didn’t throw a fit. Finally, many days had passed and all the nails were gone. The father came to look.
“Very well, son,” he said. “But look at this fence. It is covered with many holes. It will never be the same. Every time you hurt someone, you leave a mark. You can stick a knife in a man and then say sorry but the wound will still be there. A verbal wound is the same–it just leaves a mark that you can’t see.”
Posted by molleth on December 17, 2008 at 10:14 pm
In case you think your brain isn’t working right, I just edited this post a bit. So, no, you’re not crazy.
Off I runneth…
Posted by SuzyQ on December 18, 2008 at 2:40 am
I can tell this came straight from the heart. It’s so beautifully written.
God Bless you and your friend. I hope that she finds healing and strength. She has a wise and kind friend in you :0)
Posted by Kate Johnson on December 18, 2008 at 3:34 am
David ran from Saul, even though he loved him dearly. A Biblical example of run, baby, run! But it is so hard to do when all around you believe the lies that he is a gentle soul, misunderstood perhaps, stressed even, but deep down inside….
What happens when the people you go to for help, the pastor, church leader, good friends, say stay? What happens when everyone says be a better wife and he will be fine, and your husband will be won over by your good deeds? It happens all the time, in every denomination, and the result is furtherance from a God who does not seem to care. Until you find a different God, the true loving God, you cannot believe there is anything else for you. And sometimes you find Him in friends such as you, who with wise counsel tell them that they are worth saving, even loving, with no strings attached. And sometimes, as in my case, there is no one telling you these things except a God who speaks so strongly and clearly to you that He is the only one whispering, then shouting, “go, run, baby run! It’s ok.”
But one point. I would say that leaving does not take strength. I often tell those I counsel (as I am a “professional counselor” and lead a ministry), that they are incredibly strong. They have lived in it and survived – amazing! They doi not believe it at first. But slowly they begin to and they are empowered. So I tell them that they have used their strength to survive in the relationship, now they can use this strength to survive outside the relationship. So it doesn’t take strength, but it does take courage. Courage to stand in the face of evil. Courage to stand against all those who would tell you to stay. Courage to choose life.
And as Scripture says, before you stands life or death. Choose life!
Posted by whimsy on December 18, 2008 at 4:07 am
Molly –
Your writing is a gift. To all of us. The only other words I can form are :
wow!
you go girl!
Posted by HW on December 18, 2008 at 5:28 am
Is it all right if I post this on my blog? All credit back to you, of course.
This post blew me away. I had a friend that fits this post. She was my best friend, and nearly destroyed me. Looking back, I see what a manipulator and controller she is, but at the time I didn’t see what she was doing.
Anyway… thanks for this amazing post.
Posted by tonia on December 18, 2008 at 6:52 am
yes, i think she should get away too. and she needs to keep that resolve in the face of all manipulation and pressure and rebuke. (this is such a good example of why we should not be gossiping and being nosy little hens about other people’s business…we just can’t know.)
until the abuser comes to a place of true repentance he/she is not able to change and will only continue to hurt.
i am seeing these signs in my FAS son….his ability to change the stories until he is always the victim, to manipulate circumstances to get what he wants, his complete narcissism….it is so hard to parent. i can only imagine what it must be like to be married to someone like this.
bless you dear one.
Posted by debrabaker on December 18, 2008 at 7:17 am
I hope and pray the right people read this post and the parable of the boy and the fence.
Thank-you.
Posted by Monica on December 18, 2008 at 8:04 am
Hahahaha..I feel like I wrote your post, Molz. Anyone who cares to, visit my blog and tell me what you think of my ‘forgiveness’ post.
I learned to tell my husband that unless he can clearly articulate what exactly he is sorry for, I do not even know what he wants forgiveness for. Period. I told him how does HE know what HE is sorry for, unless he can firstly articulate it to HIMSELF then God, then the offended person?
ON TOP OF THAT, a sincere soul will be willing to hear FEEDBACK from the victimized person, and would be willing to re-investigate his wrongdoings even further.
I have been SO harmed by this type of style of ‘repentance’ that I could give a ratts butt anymore if the pastor, counselor or whoever agrees with it. I am so done with it…..it is closer to witchcraft than worshipping the upside down cross-because at least they are AWARE they worship that-wghen we subscribe to this type of ‘repentance’, we normally never know we are operating in a formula closer to anti-christian doctrine-and we proclaim it as the RIGHT SIDE UP cross. Dangerous, dangerous stuff.
Posted by paisley3 on December 18, 2008 at 8:08 am
…and I would say I can use this for a husband I know who is being similarly destroyed methodically…in the name of love.
Posted by sarah walston on December 18, 2008 at 8:10 am
Ooh. Molly. I don’t know if I can read the rest of this post. This is all hitting way too close to home now.
The marriage field is a messy battleground and not many survivors are left standing.
I love the part at the top – accepting what IS and stop living in a state of denial over what SHOULD Be IF a wife does this or that according to the latest “save your marriage” book.
It takes TWO healthy people to make a healthy marriage.
Posted by Amy on December 18, 2008 at 9:01 am
Molly,
This is beautiful. Your friend has so much wisdom and insight into abuse.
I pray she will continue to find deep healing, restoration, peace and draw all the more near to Papa Son Holy Spirit. May Father so deeply bless her and get her and her husband and children through this season.
P.S. Molly, I hope you have a wonderful Christmas!!
Blessings,
~Amy
ttp://amyiswalkinginthespirit.blogspot.com
Posted by Untitled 1 : Under the Grace on December 18, 2008 at 10:20 am
[...] thoughtful post from Adventures in Mercy called Letters To An Abused Soul: When Love is “No”: And when, because of your own warped view of what it means to be loving and gracious—perhaps [...]
Posted by molleth on December 18, 2008 at 11:21 am
http://underthegrace.com/?p=68
Great link to go along with this post…
Posted by molleth on December 18, 2008 at 11:38 am
And here is Monica’s post on forgiveness…
http://unconventiallyauthenticallyme.blogspot.com/2008/11/asking-for-forgiveness.html
Okay, back to getting something tangible done!
Posted by Sarah on December 18, 2008 at 11:56 am
This is a really good post, thanks for writing it. My sister came out of a similarly abusive marriage, and you pretty much nailed it. Some abusers have an uncanny ability to live in a state of victimhood – and they honestly believe in their own interpretation of reality. It’s severe delusion and tragic deception, since it keeps them firmly bound and unable to repent unto their own freedom and healing. The narcissism of an abuser is it’s own kind of prison. And the hardest thing to do is for an abused person to realize that the abuser (whether father, husband, church leader, friend) is not actually even *able* to meet their need or love them in the way they are suppposed to be loved. And that’s not the abused person’s fault. It just is.
Dreams and hopes lost are extremely painful, but Jesus lovingly and gently makes up the difference for unmet emotional needs, while also providing the healing balm for all those wounds inflicted over the years. It’s not an overnight process, but there is hope in HIm.
Posted by Anon on December 18, 2008 at 12:36 pm
I really appreciate what you’ve written here.
My mom and I only talk by instant message online these days. She does not have my phone number. I’m safer this way. It was the only boundary I could draw that would keep me this way. I am constantly hounded by family or her friends for this decision. She’s in the hospital right now (and it’s Christmas and she’s all alone, etc) and the pressure from all around is pretty intense – what kind of daughter am I?
But your post – this is her. 30 years of Sorrys and guilt and responsibility for her. And abuse of every kind. And it’s heartbreaking because I love her and wish for a mother. Instead, I have a broken record of manipulation and abuse. People think that I’m one of those ungrateful kids that just can’t let past mistakes go. If only they knew the abuse she continues to hand out. Then again, I wouldn’t wish this understanding of her on anyone.
Thank you for what you’ve written so honestly here.
Posted by Dan Brennan on December 18, 2008 at 12:55 pm
Molly,
Great post. There is a sound, solid place for no in friendships, marriages, and churches.
Posted by Sometimes Love Is “No.” « To Be A Fool… on December 18, 2008 at 1:19 pm
[...] Jesus, love, marraige, relationships, spiritual abuse Molly wrote an amazing post called “Letters to an Abused Soul: When Love Is “No.” Here is an excerpt. In fact, what do you do when you realize you’ve been conned, [...]
Posted by justjuls on December 18, 2008 at 1:47 pm
Where to start – - I can so relate to all that you are saying. I have been in an abusive marriage for going on 20 years. There are days when it was hard to even like myself – looking at the person in the mirror with the definition of what someone else’s hurtful words said that I was.
Those boundaries and “no trespassing” signs that you talk about – they are the only catalyst to the sound mind God gave us to start with. I hope that your friend finds her way out.
I have a husband who has been crying – over and over again for sorrow over the years we lost together. Every day is a new apology, a new memory recollected and a recognition of himself as the monster. I am currently in “wait and see” mode hoping he has finally aspired to be the man I always knew he could be – but if necessary the doors will be slammed shut tight again.
I am so sorry for your friend because I know what misery a soul can feel in this type of situation I am hoping I never have to revisit that dark hole.
Feel free to email me if you would like – or share my email address with your friend. Bringing things that are in the darkness out into the light of day is an amazing start. My husband was emotionally and mentally abusive more than physically – but there was always a fear that he would be more. That is how you are controlled – if someone can intimidate you – the manipulation comes so easy.
Sharing a quote a friend shared with me:
Lie back daughter, let your head
be tipped back in the cup of my hand.
Gently, and I will hold you. Spread
your arms wide, lie out on the stream
and look high at the gulls. A dead-
man’s float is face down. You will dive
and swim soon enough where this tidewater
ebbs to the sea. Daughter, believe
me, when you tire on the long thrash
to your island… Read More, lie up, and survive.
As you float now, where I held you
and let go, remember when fear
cramps your heart what I told you:
lie gently and wide to the light-year
stars, lie back, and the sea will hold you.
“First lesson of swimming” –Philip Booth
Praying – and learning to swim -
Posted by madame on December 18, 2008 at 1:57 pm
Hey Anon,
I’m so sorry you are hurting because of your mom.
You know? Abusive parents can manipulate their children into doing anything, and they will teach a type of “sticking to each other through thick and thin” that is extremely destructive. Big hugs from here.
Molly,
That was a great post. Very thought inducing.
We all have to examine ourselves and ask God to examine our hearts (psalm 139) to see if there is any wickedness in us too. It’s easy to point the finger of blame, but as you’ve said, it’s much harder for an abuser who thinks he is doing the right thing to see the wickedness in his actions.
Yes, love is not a thing for the faint hearted.
Posted by Kimber on December 19, 2008 at 8:19 am
Molly,
Wow.
You have an amazing way of helping us to look at thinks from a perspective that is RARELY taught.
Posted by E on December 19, 2008 at 9:39 am
Have your friend read M. Scott Peck People of the Lie: The Hope for Healing Human Evil.
Posted by joannabug on December 19, 2008 at 10:44 am
Molly,
Thank you so much for sharing this. Sometimes it’s easy in a healthy marriage to realize how good things (like forgiveness) can be distorted and warped in an unhealthy situation. It’s also hard when you have a sense from the outside that things don’t look quite right in someone else’s situation, and don’t know quite how to approach it. Especially if they’re trained not to talk about it because it’s “gossip.” This has really helped me in thinking about a situation I know, and I hope that you continue this series.
Posted by Katherine Gunn on December 19, 2008 at 5:27 pm
Very insightful. In my experience, the first and biggest hurdle is getting past the idea the it is wrong to say “no” and walk away… from a church, from a parent. Extricating from an abusive relationship is never pretty or easy and is usually made harder by those who have a religious (rather than Christ-like) bent.
You have learned a great deal abut what abuse looks like and what it does. You’re friend is lucky to have you as a friend.
{{{Hug}}} I know it is hard, for the you as well as your friend. But I promise, it is worth it.
Posted by joannabug on December 19, 2008 at 5:54 pm
I meant to say “it’s hard” to realize those things.
Posted by molleth on December 19, 2008 at 6:50 pm
http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/manipulator/emotional_abuse.shtm
Similar (but more insightful) thoughts related to this post…
Posted by sarah walston on December 19, 2008 at 7:35 pm
Thinking of another situation I know of….which is very close to my heart …. it’s really hard to read about Emotional Abuse/Abusers when you see it happening to someone you love … and there are children involved … and there’s already been so much division in the family because of this person – for over 13 yrs now…. it’s so hard…. and you watch your family member just go down the spiral with the abuser….and you have to draw up your own boundary lines….and start saying No to the one who is allowing herself to be abused…as in, “NO, I can’t come help you with this or that because your husband will be home and I can’t be around him.” When the abused won’t listen to you – when the abused has become also the abuser and has started using the abusers tactics on her own children…. oh it’s hard….. and when CPS has been called in and they have failed to do anything … and your hands are tied … and … and … and …
And it’s hard to read that stuff – on the Heartless B***ches site. I mean – that is like…describing a family I am … or was … close to. It’s hard because even I don’t want it to be true.
Posted by molleth on December 20, 2008 at 12:23 am
I think that’s been the hardest thing for me, personally…admitting what is true…because I so badly don’t want any of it to be true, I want to believe that there’s something, something that can be done about it, some cure, some fix, if only I can just tweak this, do this, say this, then it will all just magically be okay… Very hard, both to watch happen to others and to experience. I don’t think any of it is easy, ever, dealing with this kind of thing.
If I recall correctly, I spent a year in complete shock and grief when and as we discovered the church we’d been a part of in TX was *that* abusive… (E may have some words to share on that one, since he was in it too)… And that was just a church family of 4-5 years, not a parent or a spouse! The close relational stuff is, I think, so much worse…so incredibly worse.
Life sucks sometimes. I think that facing the nasty broken reality makes for a much more proactive way to handle it, though, than burying our heads in the sand. It’s just that sometimes it can be so very very hard to leave the safety and warmth (and blessed blindness) of the sand. Especially when the abused person is so broken by the abuse… I mean, after a certain point, they have very little, if any, inner resources left to pull their heads up out with. After a certain point, they don’t even know they are abused.
It is *such* a tragic thing, abuse is. The faster it can be recognized, the better, because the better chance the abused person has of being able to seperate themselves from what is destroying them. Though, sometimes the only way we learn that is from the school of hard knocks. Blech. I know that it’s said “what won’t kill us will make us stronger,” but…
Posted by madame on December 20, 2008 at 3:59 am
Sarah,
What you describe is very close to my heart. I don’t feel free to write about it on here, especially not what relationship I have to the abusers.
In the case I am close to, the wife keeps going back to the abuser, allowing him to destroy hers and her family’s life, in the name of “not fighting in the flesh, but fighting in the spirit”.
You can’t do much in a situation like that. She chooses voluntarily to stay, one of her children, who fits perfectly the description of the enabler in a codependent relationship, keeps passively supporting abuse, and his family is also suffering because of this.
Abuse sucks. So do manipulation and emotional blackmail.
In Christian circles we think we should keep tolerating the behaviour. Do anything not to rock the boat and keep the surface looking intact, but this only facilitates abuse, and if you are passively allowing the abuse of someone else, you are, unwillingly, a partner in crime.
Very often, wives elevate their relationship with their husbands, or the manadate to “submit” and ” respect”, above their responsibilities towards their children, to protect them, not be stumbling blocks to them, love them, teach them what is true, etc…
And mothers are blaming themselves when they lash out at their children because they are so burnt out by the abuse from their husbands.
But there are people out there who believe children will just get over it and not become abusers themselves, in some way or another. It’s a cycle and someone has to break it.
We live in such a broken world, even our churches are so messed up!
Posted by Mara on December 20, 2008 at 6:18 am
Your link didn’t work for me Molly.
It’s a pity. I’d really like to take a look at it.
Posted by lionwoman on December 20, 2008 at 10:18 am
Molly, you are doing a great service to people who are willing to listen. I’m so grateful to have found people who articulate many thoughts I’ve had for years.
For as long as I’ve been a Christian, I’ve been disturbed that I have never yet found a book or study for wives or couples that does not start off with the base assumption that the man is a selfish, egotistical jerk. And so the book elaborates throughout on how you the wife must learn to ’submit’ properly then everything will be fine. Of course they do not word it exactly that way, but the message is clear. What a sad plumb line for Christians!
Your thoughts here apply well to other abusive relationships, not just bad marriage situations. Thank you again for sharing.
Posted by Scott M on December 20, 2008 at 10:19 am
I don’t love chocolate cake. I want to eat it. I want to consume it to feed my hunger, my passion. I don’t actively will the good for chocolate cake. We understand that difference when we’re talking about chocolate cake. The problem is that too many people ‘love’ others as though they were chocolate cake.
I’ve read your post several times over the past few days Molly. Well said. And the comments have been interesting to track. It has, at times, been difficult to read. I didn’t know whether I would comment or not, but finally decided to go ahead and share a little. It’s difficult to experience abuse without it twisting and distorting who you are as a human being. That is, perhaps, its greatest evil.
My earliest definable memory involves standing on a chair with my little brother ‘helping’ to make biscuits, then flying through the air and hitting the front of a refrigerator. I remember the green room where they set my broken femur. I remember being in a hospital room in traction. And I remember walking in a cast that came up to and around my waist. I was three years old.
My life growing up was … interesting and chaotic. Fortunately, I had enough people around and close to me who truly loved me that somehow I came out of it less scathed than I could have been. Children are amazingly resilient. They often have to be to survive.
In the midst of that chaos as a teen, I thought I had found a group that cared for me in a Christian church down the hill from one of the places we lived while I was growing up. Things were great, I guess, for a year or so. Until I became a teen parent. I still remember the day I was asked from the pulpit to remove my sleeping daughter from the sanctuary because her presence was ‘disturbing’ the service. It’s little wonder I had nothing good to say about Christianity for well more than a decade and remain uncertain in its ranks.
My own ability to read and judge people has been damaged. In the fallout of my failed teen marriage, I leaped into an utterly disastrous second marriage. I absorbed the distorted self-image my second wife imposed on me. I’m still not sure I’m completely free from it. But the greatest penalty was paid by my oldest son. She is not the sort of person with whom he was ever able to form a parental bond. She was too damaged. But the couple of years she had him completely away from me were truly horrific ones for him. If you’ve never seen a five year old you love suffering from chronic post traumatic stress disorder, trust me, it’s something you never want to encounter. He experienced worse than I ever did and he did it living in fear. I do understand why my second wife was as damaged as she was and remains. I understand what warped her in that way. But it doesn’t excuse it.
Abuse, seeing, treating, and using people as though they were objects, can be subtle or it can be overt. Usually it’s a mix. But allowing someone to continue to abuse you or another human being is not simply unloving to the one being abused, it’s unloving to the abuser. By committing abuse, they are deconstructing their own humanity.
My older son is slowly finding healing from his (now) wife. I am so, so grateful to her for doing what I longed more than life to do, but in which I seemed to accomplish so little. I could have easily followed a path more like my older son’s. Somehow I avoided it. But he is healing, day by day.
On some days, I see in my youngest daughter glimpses of the human being I might have been. She’s too much like me sometimes. It frustrates my wife no end. And me too. But she’s extraordinarily sensitive and empathetic as well as wildly imaginative and creative. It’s a tough world out there, but we’ll protect that in her as long as we are able.
OK. That was harder than I thought to write. A significant part of me is tempted to simply delete the comment and never press submit. But here goes ….
Posted by HEvencense on December 20, 2008 at 11:24 am
Great post and a great blog. I’ve added AiM to my Blogroll.
Posted by Katherine Gunn on December 20, 2008 at 11:26 am
Scott M, thank you for sharing your story. One of the hardest things to do is simply talk (or write) about what happened. It makes us vulnerable and in the world of growing up/living with abuse, that is very dangerous. Is this a safe place? Safer than most. No place is completely safe.
I’m glad your son is getting the healing he needs. I’m glad you have found some peace. It is a hard and painful road, but so worth it.
God’s Peace and Goodwill to you and you family.
Posted by Deborah on December 20, 2008 at 11:57 am
Yes, ScottM, thank you for your courage. Grace be with you. D
Posted by Scott M on December 20, 2008 at 12:36 pm
Thanks. It’s not easy. And I do recognize that I tend to be very guarded, even around those I love. But it’s worse, I think, if we never speak, especially once the topic has been raised.
I like Pete Rollins. He tends to put things in ways I can follow, though I gather some find him confusing. I just watched this little video of his called “Set Apart”.
http://www.theworkofthepeople.com/index.php?ct=store.details&pid=V00560
Lots in there to like, but in the middle is a little bit where he talks about God as Father. And yes, that’s true. But it’s a Father whose very name is hallowed or holy or set apart. It’s a Father who transcends all that we know as Father.
I’ve been blessed(?) to have several fathers, more than just the one most people get (and perhaps several more father-figures). Some very bad and some pretty good, but all flawed. For that matter, my mother has had her own struggles and demons and is pretty flawed herself (though she’s much better now).
What Rollins is reiterating and placing into other language is at its heart apophatic theology. And I get that. Moreover, I need that. Here much of evangelicalism falls flat. I tend to cringe at the references to God as ‘Daddy’. I don’t need some Daddy god. I need the God who, though we call him father, is father in a way beyond anything we’ve experienced, so much so that he’s not ‘Father’ in the sense of any Father we’ve ever known.
Similarly, the ‘buddy Jesus’ experience disturbs me. Yes, Jesus loves me more and better than any friend I’ve ever had. But friends, however much they love you, often can do little but watch and commiserate. I don’t need a new best friend. I need a King of Kings and Lord of Lords. I need the judge who is setting all things right. Even as you say that Jesus is your friend, you have to say he’s not your friend in any way that you’ve experienced friendship.
Though I’ve never seen the movie, I have lots of friends who have and the quote by Ricky Bobby about the 8 lb, 6 oz baby Jesus is impossible to have missed. Bah. Yes, we do at this time honor the majesty and mystery of the nativity. The event of the Incarnation staggers (or should stagger) the imagination. I liked the Arabic Christmas hymn Father Stephen shared. Its words captured some of the sense that most of our carols miss.
http://fatherstephen.wordpress.com/2008/12/17/traditional-byzantine-christmas-hymn-in-arabic/
Jesus didn’t stay an infant, though. Nor is he one today. Praying to a ‘baby Jesus’ is an exercise in futility. A ‘baby Jesus’ is an empty god, indeed, if he remains a baby.
The real problem with evangelicalism is that with rare exceptions like N.T. Wright and Pete Rollins, the god it offers up for worship is not worth worshiping.
Hmmm. Not sure how I ended up there in my ramblings.
Posted by Scott M on December 20, 2008 at 12:40 pm
Ah. I forgot and included links in my last comment. Hopefully Molly will be able to rescue it from moderation.
However, I did want to make sure I said thanks right away to the two comments above. It’s hard to write something like that. But then it’s also hard to wait for a reaction. And I have to admit to being a little fearful. Your kind comments were a salve to read.
Posted by molleth on December 20, 2008 at 1:25 pm
Rescued it.
Thanks so much, Scott, and everyone else who shared from a personal place, for being so open. It was very good…very thoughtful…and who knows how many others it will help, besides. Wow. I think sometimes that being open about this stuff is so hard, and yet there is something so liberating about realizing that many many others have walked in these same paths, that there are people who make it out, that it is possible, and even that healing is possible (if not for hte abuser, than at least for the abused)…
I am not currently at a place where I’m able, ahem, to be as open about some of my own situational circumstances (and like you, Scott, I often vascilate between hitting the submit button and hitting the delete button, sometimes wanting to delete this entire blog! Ha!)…in a lot of ways I often feel like I’ve been way way too open, and in a lot of other ways I wish I could just completely bare it all and stop hiding stuff… but yet I do find working through stuff through this medium (both of writing and of having others to process it with) to be incredibly incredibly helpful…so I keep at it.
I don’t know how people make it through a maze like this all by themselves…it’s hard enough as it is.
((((hugs)))) to all of you going through this or who know others who are and hurt for them.
Posted by molleth on December 20, 2008 at 3:46 pm
http://equalitycentral.com/forum/index.php?topic=801.0
VERY interesting, especially in regards to patriarchy and to abusive parents, bosses, etc (when the abuser is someone you feel is your authority).
Posted by April on December 20, 2008 at 8:00 pm
I enjoy reading this blog, but it really seems like every post is anti-men, anti-relationship, etc. Maybe it’s just me. Maybe it’s because my marriage is healthy (far from perfect, but healthy)…I’m not certain. There are many GOOD marriages out there that consist of two loving people, but it seems so far removed from the posts here. I mean no harm, BTW. This is just my thoughts. You sound angry, Molly, and maybe that’s something to analyze within your own heart. You have experienced some terrible things, but your focus seems to be on the bad things.
I could be crazy; you have the right to ignore my thoughts or mull them over. I just couldn’t ignore my heart this time.
Posted by Shaun on December 20, 2008 at 8:03 pm
I can relate to what you are talking about here. I was physically and mentally abused as a child , then in my first marriage by my wife. Like another commenter mentioned, I was damaged in my ability to read people and to even understand what normal (or non-abusive) was. I physically abused my oldest son and I don’t know if he will ever be ok, I hope so, only God knows. But I agree, it was an act of love for my ex-wife, myself and my entire family for me to put an end to it.
I saw clearer and clearer as time went on and I am much healthier than I was.
No was one of the best words I ever learned.
Posted by Shaun on December 20, 2008 at 8:17 pm
By the way I hope you don’t mind I linked to your post from my blog.
Peace
Posted by molleth on December 20, 2008 at 10:08 pm
Shaun,
Thanks for sharing. What a great story from someone who sounds like they’ve worked very hard to gain a healthy perspective on things.
April,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts here. This comments box is always open to all, and I hope you feel welcome to pipe in again in the future.
Some thoughts about what you shared…
I think average bloggers blog about their own experiences and their thoughts… Not that this is surprising or incredibly insightful, I know, but it would seem odd and disengenous if I was blogging about how great it is to be rich, or to sky-dive, when I’m doing neither of those things. *shrugs and grins* So this blog is going to be a reflection of my life, my experiences… That’s sort of par for the course, I think, and I’m not sure it’s fair to say that someone shouldn’t be allowed to do that because their experiences haven’t been stellar. But maybe that’s not what you were trying to say (who knows, it’s the end of a long day here, ha)…
On a related note, I think that to a degree, most of us are not responsible for whether our lives get twisted up by abuse or not. No child, for example, “chooses” to be born into an abusive home. It happens, though. No seeker of Christ, generally, purposely seeks out an abusive church to damage them. It happens, though.
And so then comes the part we *are* responsible for. Processing it, healing up from it, growing, trying to help the piles of manure become compost, learning to live with the parts of us that may always be stunted because of the years we survived in famine conditions, hopefully becoming healthy human beings in spite of what happened to us.
That process is not for the faint of heart, and it’s not something that you just “do” in a month and are “done.” I think most people spend years, and some people have to spend their entire lives unlearning and relearning the lies beat or twisted into them.
Related to this, I remember this one girl at Bible College “confronting” me one afternoon while I was sitting on the porch shedding a tear. My younger brother had died two months prior, I’d just gotten back from the funeral and all of that, and was just grabbing a quiet moment of privacy to look at his picture and think about him and even maybe cry a little bit. She, the director’s daughter, walked out and “caught me” in the act and actually gave me a little lecture on why I should be “over it” already.
That kind of insensitivity and misunderstanding of what it means to be “spiritual” can be so painful to experience. It’s like the grieving person is down for the count and someone walks up and kicks them in the ribs…in the name of Jesus, no less.
Well, just as death takes a long time to “get over” (do we really ever “get over” it at all? I don’t think so…there will always be that hole…), so does abuse.
Being spiritual is *not* the same thing as being happy (or only talking about happy things, or only having a happy expression on our face). I think that our spirituality, the real depth of it anyway, is in loving God, no matter what. Loving Him when we are at our highest, when things are good, and loving Him when we are at our lowest, when we are dying, when we are at the bottom of the pit… loving Him in our good relationships, and loving Him (as we extracate ourselves or learn to live) in ones that are painful.
There is room, then, in “spirituality,” for all emotions. If anything, the psalmists prove that, as they rejoice, cry, rage, and groan, all of it, every last drop of it all the stuff of real spirituality.
When it comes to the emotion of anger, I think that’s something that many Christians have gotten just as warped as their views on forgiveness and apologies (meaning, misunderstood and misapplied). I mean, anger is part of life (not a sin, anymore than happy is a sin) and dealing with it in healthy ways is a *good* thing.
Everyone gets angry, and everyone should get angry. God gets angry when He sees abuse. So I think we need to give ourselves permission to be angry when there is cause for anger, not worry about analyzing our hearts because anger is some big evil thing (ie., should someone admonish Jesus to analyze His heart when He was angry at the people robbing worshippers in the temple?).
Sometimes I feel that what I am analyzing is all the years when I wasn’t angry but should have been. *sad smile* I think that is probably fairly common to people coming out of abusive situations. You spend a lot of years in denial, and in confusion, and in attempt after attempt to make things better…because you really just don’t get what is happening to you (if you did, you wouldn’t be denying it, living in confusion, and constantly attempting to make things better! HA!).
When you realize the truth, the actual ugly truth, I think it’s just like a death. And so most people go through the stages of grief as they come out of abusive situations…all very human, very healthy, very normal (though uncomfortable for those around them who don’t understand that it’s human, healthy, and normal). One of those stages is anger. I am not sure that there’s a rule about how to go through the “anger” stage because all I know is that we just have to go through it, and that in general, it’s very healthy. Okay, when anger turns into bitterness, it’s not healthy, but good healthy anger can sometimes be our best friend. One of my biggest prayers is that I would be brave enough to let the anger out, but that I would also be brave enough to not let it grow into bitterness. A scary line to walk, but there’s no way to get through it other than to go through it.
Part of getting healthy again, after abuse, is learning to BE angry, to LISTEN to our anger, because a major part of what kept us *in* the abusive situation was that we didn’t listen to our anger, we trusted the abuser instead of our anger, we stuffed it down, we didn’t understand that it was a good thing, that our anger was a *healthy* response, that we should have listened to it.
That good kind of anger helps us know that something bad is happening, that something isn’t right. (We get angry when we think about what Hitler did to the Jews, because we are healthy, not because we are sinful).
When we go through anger as we grieve an abusive relationship and the price we paid for it, working through the phase of anger helps us come to terms with the truth, the real truth, helps us accept it, helps us realize the full extent of the damage done, the full extent of the destruction…so that it can’t happen anymore, and so that we can walk in *reality* instead of denial and start finding proactive ways to heal. It might sound weird to say it, but I would even wager a guess that somtimes, as He brings us into a place of healing, the Holy Spirit often helps abused people learn to be angry (which, uh, reeeeally goes against what I used to believe)…
I think I was going to say something else, but now I can’t remember…time to hit the sack!
Posted by Kristen B on December 20, 2008 at 11:56 pm
I’m glad I came back and took some time to read through this post – we have recently pulled our family out of a manipulative/abusive church relationship yet again – and we tried so hard to stick it out, putting up with months of extra tears. My dh and I have been through several churches and we are always just stunned by what people do in the name of God.
I think that we stay in it longer than necessary because, dh points out, there won’t be a perfect church. But me, as momma bear, reaches a point where I can no longer tolerate my children witnessing what is not Christ-like. Our eldest, now 11, is pretty sharp and can catch the things that just don’t jive with what the Bible teaches us about the church.
So then, where are we to go? But I realize, reflecting on your post, that perhaps we are prone to the disfunctional, abusive church. You know, like some people just always go back to the abusive spouse, we just keep finding this abusive church situation. While we as a married couple are fine, our combined pasts would reflect the characteristics of those who would be more prone to abusive relationships, and perhaps we are realizing that by placing ourselves under spiritually abusive leaders.
Hmm – an idea to ponder. And an idea that maybe all churches will not be like the ones we’ve left, crying. We don’t want perfection in a church – but we do want Jesus.
Posted by Scott M on December 21, 2008 at 7:30 am
Molly, thanks for much that you wrote again. However, I would add a caution. Anger is a tricky thing. Of all our passions, it seems to me among the most likely to work itself into the interstices of our being. I’ve probably spent as much time learning to free myself from threads of anger gone cold in bitterness and hate as I have learning to acknowledge and feel the wrongness of some of the things I’ve experienced.
I don’t mean to say that anger is evil or that it is unwarranted. I do mean to say that it is dangerous in the way that boiling water is dangerous. If it escapes control, it is as apt to harm you or another innocent as it is to help.
I’ve read and reflected deeply on what Jesus taught and lived. And I think I agree with something I heard Dallas Willard say. One of the central points (and go all the way back to Genesis 4-11 to see the seeds of this) of Jesus is that we need to learn not to be angry, not to naturally respond from anger. Now, that doesn’t mean repress the emotion or stuff it down. Blecchhh. No, it just means we need to learn to be people who are not ruled by anger, who do not naturally and immediately respond to an encroachment of our will or desire with anger.
To those who point to Jesus and the moneychangers, I’m not convinced from anything in the text that he is actually angry. I think we’ve read the emotion into it. However, if he is, that’s fine too. I like the way Dallas puts it. “We can trust Jesus to be angry.” And that’s a key difference. Most of us, when we’re responding from or ruled by anger, aren’t very trustworthy. We tend to be a danger to ourselves and to those around us.
There are stories of righteous saints who acted in holy anger. The one who has always stuck in my mind (appropriate for this time of year) is St. Nicholas the Gift Giver. Released from torture and imprisonment, he attended the council of Nicaea and struck Arius when he would not recant his heresy. And so I’m willing to admit the possibility of people acting rightly from a more righteous form of anger.
But when I look at the saints and the history of the church, I don’t think very many people ever reach that point. I think the message for many of us remains learning not to naturally act or react from anger. There’s a reason we developed phrases like ‘lashing out’ to describe our expressions of anger.
I am, of course, aware that abusers will often tell a person they have no right to be angry and will try to take the emotion away from them even as they swim in oceans of anger. But if you embrace your anger too much, if you hold it too closely, if you learn to enjoy its touch, you run the risk of following the same path.
Kristen, my heart aches for you. Personally, I’m not sure why you keep seeking a church at all. But I suppose that’s because of my background. When I encountered an abusive church, I put as much distance between christianity and me as I could. But then, I had a more pluralistic background than many.
In the case of a church, if you think that somehow your ability to discern the difference between healthy and unhealthy has been damaged, I would suggest that you try attending churches that are completely unlike the churches you normally attend. If you normally attend non-liturgical churches, try attending some of the liturgical churches. Or vice versa. Basically, try to break whatever cycle it is that you are repeating.
We tend to have this horribly distorted picture of the passage in Revelation about Jesus standing at the door and knocking. We’ve twisted it into this personal thing where Jesus is knocking to get into our heart. Bah. In the text, Jesus is knocking at the door of a church which has pushed him out. We have too many churches like that today.
Go somewhere unlike what you typically seek. Your crossed wires won’t have as much impact and, who knows?, you might encounter Jesus.
Posted by Mara on December 21, 2008 at 8:01 am
Kristen B.
Keep looking, don’t give up. The imperfect church that really loves Jesus is out there. Ask and keep on asking. Seek and keep on seeking. Knock and keep on knocking.
Molly,
What you wrote about anger is spot on and really needs no additon (says I as I humbly prepare to add one tiny thing,)
Another thing about abuse that is tied up in this anger is our voice. When we tolerate abuse and stuff our anger, we not only give up our God-given right to healthy emotion, we give up our voice.
And when people find their voice again it often comes out with anger and venting and it make a lot of people uncomfortable because “Christians don’t talk that way.”
Well, God made us to be expressive just as Himself and when our expression is robbed from us by the enemy of us all through various abuses, sometimes that anger does fester into bitterness and the boil needs to be lanced. What comes out isn’t pretty. But it must come out or it gets worse.
Hopefully in the long run, all the toxins will be flushed away and the tide of anger can be brought back into a healthy balance.
But it will never happen if it is never allowed to come out.
It is very important for an abused person to find their voice again. I’m sorry if it makes others umcomfortable. But it doesn’t make God uncomfortable nor any of us who have been there.
Not all of Christianity is sunshine and butterflies. Some of it is hard core, rubber meets the road, dealing face to face with the ugly in ourselves and those we love.
What those of us dealing with serious issues have found is that large segments of the church don’t ever want to deal with the ugly. They want to sweep it all under the rug away from the sun/Son. Unknowningly they shove it away where fungus and bacteria make it worse.
April, I hope that if you can’t ever understand it, that you will at least trust God to take care of us as we walk this road of healing. We want to cling to God. Some people have forsaken God and the church altogether rather than to deal with the church’s denial of abuse.
Posted by Mara on December 21, 2008 at 8:16 am
Scott,
We cross posted. I agree we need to be careful about letting anger be our master.
But sometimes it’s like a pendulum that’s been pushed one way too long and not allowed to find balance. When finally it is let go, it may swing a little too far on the anger side. But the hope is that the proper balance will be found out and we will be sensitive to the Spirit calling use to finally put away the anger.
The other danger is putting the anger away too soon, before it has done it’s job of helping you remove yourself from a situation that you need to get out of.
Women, in general, may have more of a tendancy to tolerate bad situations longer ??? So we may need the anger longer to make us do what we need to do for ourselves and our children and even our spouses??? I could be wrong on this one. But unfortunately it has taken a lot of anger for me to re-establish healthy boundaries with my mate. He did not understand until he could tell I was dead serious. Speaking in unangry tones accomplished nothing. I had to get ugly with him. I didn’t like it, but I had to do it. My repressed anger accomplished nothing. Now our relationship is healthier because of my expressed anger.
Posted by Scott M on December 21, 2008 at 9:13 am
I’m certainly not suggesting that anyone remain in any sort of abusive situation, Mara. The immediate response to abuse should be to separate the abuser from the abused. Period. I can think of no exception. If, and only if, the abuser undertakes the difficult task of change and demonstrates real progress is there any possibility to restore the relationship. Period.
Even so, anger works to master us in many subtle ways as well as the overt ones. It worms its way into the interstices of our soul and takes root. If there is one consistent message in the adventures of dumb and dumber in Genesis 4-11, it’s that anger and violence fill the eikon when we try to separate ourselves from God. (Not that we can, of course, since to achieve true separation would be to achieve nonexistence.)
I don’t favor repressing or suppressing anger. But there is something in me that raises a red flag at the idea that we ever embrace our anger, that we ever allow ourselves to fully inhabit it.
Anger is not just a double-edged sword, but a many-edged sword. And you can never be certain who will be cut when it is wielded.
Posted by wysiwyg on December 21, 2008 at 9:22 am
Molly,
I love what you say about manure! It is so true that the *crap* we go through in life sometimes can turn into compost. But it takes a while to process all of it. Simple picture yet spot on.
Scott,
I agree with you about anger. I think it is good to recognize our anger and not ignore it, but how we express it is the key. I can’t speak for extreme abusive situations- that’s a whole different area. But I think for many *normal* (I use that term in the loosest sense:)) situations it can still be hard to properly express anger. We tend to either stuff & or blow up. When I finally started to see anger as just another emotion and not some horrible evil thing, I was able to walk myself through it, allow myself to be upset at something, and then (hopefully) express it in a healthy way.
“In your anger, do not sin”
That does not say one cannot be angry at all.
April,
I don’t personally know you so forgive me if I missed your point. I would just like to share that I have not met too many people that don’t have some amount of pain and baggage from their lives to deal with. I personally thought life was just peachy and it was always “someone elses” problem and not mine until I was close to 30. I had been married 8 years or so and had several kids and it hit me like a ton of bricks to realize I had been dealt a crap sandwich in my life and I thought I had to eat it. It has taken years to process all of it and I’m still not done. There were times when I was angry and did have bitterness. But hopefully we all walk ourselves through it and out the other side. Scars in life are inevitable and if you haven’t personally experienced these things, I think that’s great, but most have. I have much to be grateful for and I love life as I think the people who post here do also. I was in tears a year ago to have found Molly’s blog because up until that point I thought it was just me that had problems with certain religious groups. I very much appreciate hearing other’s thoughts. And if I sense anger or something, I just let it go because I know I have been there, done that. God will take care of it. To only blog about the sunny side would be sooo dishonest and that is exactly what I want to get away from in friendships with other believers. All of the marriages that I thought were “great” and “excellent” were so far from that when the scales came off my eyes. Yes, there are good marriages out there, but I have yet to meet a couple that can’t relate to at least a smidgen of what is talked about here. Heck, I think I have a good marriage, but I don’t know if I would be in your catagory of “good” marriage. It depends on people’s point of view. To be honest about issues will make people healthier for it. I am truly happy for all of those who feel their lives are wonderful and don’t understand the big deal with what is posted here, but part of me fears for you. Life WILL hand everyone something to deal with and I hope/pray/wish people could see how to process it BEFORE it happens and so avoid a lot of pain.
Posted by molleth on December 21, 2008 at 10:04 am
I only have a few seconds…enjoying reading here, as usual…You all are so fun and wise and interesting!
Before I jump back into the wiggly giggly pile of kids that is my life, I wanted to add that I completely agree: there is a kind of destructive anger that is not a good thing.
It’s not “healing” to embrace the kind of anger that will make you lash out at your children abusively, lash out at others abusively, etc. I’m glad, Scott, that you made a point to differentiate that. Thanks! I didn’t think about that when I was talking about anger, and I think it’s a really important distinction.
As for me, I have no idea what kind of anger I am in (I think it’s mostly the healthy kind?), but but I am, without a doubt, angry right now. But I think that’s because of where I’m at, which I can’t fully go into right now other than to say I’m very angry. I think that’s a fairly normal reaction to discovering you’ve been, as wysiwyg put it, eating a crap sandwhich for years. Ha! I am, in many ways, afraid of the anger, but realizing that it *has* to come out. And maybe, as someone (who?) said, it’s different for women than it is for men? Perhaps there’s an area where testosterone vs. estrogen makes for somewhat different reactions…? I don’t know, but I *do* know that I should have been furious a long long time ago, and instead, I was happy and cheerful and worked dang hard to stay that way, to maintain that smile at ALL COSTS…and to fight against any and all feelings of anger and violation, because I thought they were from the enemy.
So, um, there’s a lot coming out. It probably comes out in my writing, too. And….I think (?)…it has to come out…if healing is going to come. I like the lancing-a-boil analogy. But it’s admittedly a bit scary. Because I’m a typical American: completely untrained in dealing with my *real* feelings. We like pretty, we don’t like ugly. But hiding ugly means the disease stays in and festers. And I think that’s exactly how bitterness happens. The anger stays in instead of out, and at a certain point, the toxic stuff seeps right into the bones.
Posted by sheila on December 21, 2008 at 1:05 pm
I lived this story. And yet, I did not have to run. All I had to do is say, “No.” No, my God is a God of Peace and He wants me to live in a peaceful home. No. No, I will not stay here and take his emotional and verbal abuse. I will need to leave for an hour or for the afternoon, because he is raging. It became worse before it became better, and now it is very, very good (most of the time). We have been in counseling for over two years. We only go monthly, but it has made all the difference. I am in a graduate program, learning how to be a counselor myself. I struggle, believing that the church let me down. I struggle, wondering why the family continues to deny that the abuse happened. But, I am comforted with the knowledge that my husband is now on my side. He believes in me. He is sincerely sorry for being the monster that he was. He regrets that I didn’t “wake him up sooner,” although at the time, he fought my wake-up call with all of his being. I didn’t have to run. But, I did have to say no, repeatedly. I said no for his sake as well as for mine, because now he is the kind of husband that I always dreamed of having. Now, he can take pride in his progress and in his success. Now, we do live in a peaceful home. I am, above all, thankful and blessed. Love, Sheila
Posted by Scott M on December 21, 2008 at 1:05 pm
wysiwyg, I suppose I have heard too many people use Jesus and the moneychangers and the Psalm which Paul quotes in Ephesians as a license for anger, as long as it is a ‘righteous’ anger. Normally, it is their anger which is ‘righteous’.
I’ve already mentioned a bit of my take on Jesus. Go back and read all of Ephesians 4 in which Paul quotes the Psalm. It’s right in the midst of a series of warnings about behaviors Paul is telling them to avoid. Anger, in particular, seems to carry the warning that in it we can give the devil a place. Then in verse 31, one of the things he says should ‘be put away from you’ is anger. And then he lists some of the things with which we should replace it. So the overall message from both Jesus and Paul does seem to be, ‘Don’t be angry.’ That is, learn to be people who do not naturally and automatically respond in anger.
Now this is not some legal rule. I’ve seen too many people want to reduce things to some absolute rule. And that’s ridiculous. There is far too much variation in human experience. Anger is not a sin. But it leaves us extremely vulnerable to sin. The overarching message seems to me to be, “Be careful. Be aware of your anger.” Anger is the emotional response when our will is contravened or when the sphere which we believe is under our power (whether our boundaries are set rightly or wrongly) is invaded or fails to act as we might wish or when our desires are thwarted. Lots of sources give rise to anger and many are not nearly as ‘righteous’ as we would tell ourselves they are. We lie to ourselves at least a well as we lie to those around us.
I’m not qualified to speak to the difference between male and female experience of anger. I barely understand myself, much less anyone else. Whether you are male or female, though, stomping your anger down through either suppression or repression is a certain way to force its toxicity into your very bones. I’ve seen it and experienced it. It’s ugly. But anger is also something you can’t simply ‘let out’ and allow to run rampant.
This seems to be the point of much of the spiritual disciplines. They form us through indirect means into human beings who don’t naturally respond in anger. Ultimately, of course, we see this in Jesus, who did not revile those who reviled him in turn, who did not curse those who curses him (in a marked difference from earlier Jewish martyrs), who did not return evil for evil, and who prayed for the forgiveness of those who were wronging him.
Now, I’m not that sort of human being. I’m not even close. But I look at him and I think that perhaps I would like to be that sort of a human being. I think that maybe loving my enemy is better than hating them. Hating them has not done much for me. Anger is insidious.
Of course, I’m all too aware of the untapped reservoirs of rage that remain in my own soul. And I’m all too aware how hard it is to be angry and not sin. So many sins flow from anger. It is hard to love the other when you are angry. I don’t think that’s true just for me. I think it’s true for everyone. (And no I’m not talking about feeling pleasant or nice about them. I’m talking about the much harder sense of love where you willfully act for their good. Note again, in any situation of abuse, the first and primary act for their good and your own is to get away. Sadly, it’s the one thing children are powerless to do.)
I have a lot of empathy for the anger so many feel. It is justified and warranted. But I feel the need to push back strongly because, if we truly embrace our anger rather than keep it gingerly at the end of a stick like the viper it can be, we run the risk of dehumanizing ourselves and damaging others in the process.
Yes, repressing anger is bad. Yes, allowing anger free rein is bad. And it’s really, really hard to walk between that particular Scylla and Charybdis without being crushed. ‘We need the grace and power of our Lord Jesus Christ’ is not just a pithy saying. Without that power, I’m lost. Heck, I feel lost much of the time even as I seek it.
Anger may be necessary at times, but it’s never safe. And it can’t be tamed.
I think that sums up much of what I wanted to say.
April, I haven’t mentioned your comment because I didn’t really understand it. As far as I can tell, many of those who comment here, male and female, are married. I’m not sure how anyone could be characterized as either anti-man or anti-relationship. Anti a particular way of trying to be a man (or a woman)? Sure. Anti certain ways of doing relationships? Again, I’ll grant that. But hardly the way you characterized it.
Personally, I’ve been with my wife for 21 years now, married for almost 19. I can’t imagine life without her. I’m certain it would be much uglier and much darker. No, we don’t often share the same opinions, view faith through the same lens, or easily mesh as some sort of perfect ’soulmate’. It’s often work and at times has been quite difficult for one or the other of us. But I rely on her for so much. I still have difficulty judging people and situations and have been learning to trust her perceptions and understanding. Heck, even in simply stuff like ‘normal’ social interaction, I often need her help. I wouldn’t trade any of the past or present difficulties for life lived without her. That seems like a very dark place to me.
Posted by wysiwyg on December 21, 2008 at 2:52 pm
Those that have gone through these extreme abusive situations have a keener sensitivity and knowlege about anger and it would do the rest of us well to listen and learn.
Posted by molleth on December 21, 2008 at 3:08 pm
How about anger is a tricky thing?
It is similar to pain…can be used for our good, can be used for our bad. I’m thankful for pain, in the good sense. When I touch a hot stove, the feeling of pain keeps me from being harmed beyond a light burn. Pain is our friend, in that sense. I think the same is true for anger. My particular situation said that anger was not okay. I was touching a hot stove, and yet ever repressing the signals my body was sending me, as it were. So I appreciate the cautions about anger, and yet there is a part of me that wants to say that you don’t understand what it is like to not be allowed to be angry, to be told that your feelings are sinful and spawned from Satan, and to work like a dog to make them go away, all the while, the stove is burning and burning and burning…
I am guessing that perhaps your dynamic was totally different, Scott, and I do appreciate what you are saying in that I’ve seen anger really rip people apart. I grew up in a very angry household and it was horrible. My dad was abused as a child, and he certainly had those untapped wells of rage that you speak of…and they came out, OFTEN, because he did not know how to control them, he didn’t understand them… He is such a different person now (God has done so much in those wounded places), but then…it was a very scary environment to be a kid in…
The anger I am talking about is not that kind of anger, *not* the kind I grew up with. It is the kind of anger that tells you your hand is burning becuase you’re touching a hot stove. It’s the kind of anger that is a good thing, the kind that normal people listen to, but that, for whatever reason, I did not. I almost feel sick, which is probably just because of situational things going on here, when I think of someone telling me I can’t have that anger. I can’t put my finger on it exactly, I can’t spell it out, but I know that this kind of anger is good and that it’s not just “okay,” but actually necessary for healing.
Posted by Scott M on December 21, 2008 at 4:03 pm
Angers is tricksy, hmmm? Why does Gollum’s face leap to mind?
No, I haven’t had to live being told that any of my feelings were ’sin’ or the spawned from ‘Satan’. I rarely had sufficiently Christian trappings around me for those to even have made sense. But I have lived where it was not safe to be angry. I know what it is to suppress and repress anger and what it does to you when you do so. I was nowhere suggesting that.
Nor was I telling you you couldn’t have your anger. Nobody can really do that anyway. In fact, I wasn’t specifically speaking only to you or any one commentor.
I was trying to sound a warning that anger can all too easily take you to places you don’t want to go. The problem is that you often can’t see where it’s taking you until you’re there. Always be sure you rule your anger rather than letting it rule you.
Anger, whether encountered as a stage of grief or expressed after being long suppressed or repressed, must almost always be expressed and felt for healing to occur. No argument there. But that does not make it safe. One can get stuck in the anger.
Tricky? Sure. Or tricksy, as the case may be.
I tend to view the raw emotional form of anger, the response to direct stimulus of some sort, as neither good nor bad. It simply is. It’s among the strongest of our emotional responses. Our actions fueled or prompted by anger, though? They are almost always either good or bad. Rarely are they neutral.
Posted by molleth on December 21, 2008 at 4:09 pm
Tricksy, it is…
Yes, agreed. Good thoughts, all around.
Posted by Deborah on December 21, 2008 at 4:54 pm
Molly, I, too, grew up with some very harmful anger of the repressed sort in most family members (and all the religious force behind it) and some overt with the father, so I get what you mean about the profound ill-health of that standpoint. I also appreciate all ScottM has to say…. As God walks me through this whole gender thing, I’ve been surprised at different times to find anger and bitterness I didn’t even know I had (I knew I had plenty of anger at times, but I did not realize where it had knit into my soul interstices, as ScottM says, despite all the care I had applied to handling it until God took me to new layers of purification). So even the anger that was necessary to have and walk through proved not to be a wholly safe thing. I typically find remnants of bitterness here and there when I talk out loud to someone about gender stuff; having recently been re-sensitized by God, I will hear a “note” in my voice even if the other person does not hear it or will find I have too much of a compulsion to speak even if wisdom does not suggest it is the right time or going well. Sometimes I struggle with the egal camp b/c I find (imo) things that seem to be fed too much by anger (and sometimes, resultantly, not enough solid scripture reason or humble spiritual formation application, perhaps)… since I AM egal I worry about the presentation, you know. Planks and specks, oh my!! LOL.
Speaking of being a “bad” egal, I have to confess (and it does seem “confess” is the right word), I was ROTFL over this post: http://www.egalitalk.com/2004/06/egalitarian_mar.html
Actually, on second thought, that one’s not too “bad,” as for the next post up….
Sheila, beautiful–and too rare–to hear someone who’s made it to the other side. Thanks.
Posted by Deborah on December 21, 2008 at 4:55 pm
anger:
father and mother–overt
siblings–overt only behind closed doors
everyone–tons that was repressed
Posted by wysiwyg on December 21, 2008 at 5:41 pm
I just wanted to add to my previous post that I have appreciated what each has had to say about anger. Trying to find a balance in these sticky (or tricky) areas of life can be, well….tricksy!
Posted by molleth on December 21, 2008 at 6:02 pm
PS. Yeah, Sheila, that was really wonderful to hear!
Posted by Rachel on December 21, 2008 at 7:01 pm
I can’t tell you how I wish I had had ONE christian friend, pastor, relative, co-worker, ANYONE reach out in love to me to say what you’ve just said Molly.
Instead, I faced rejection and humiliation at every turn, I’ve been cut off by the majority of my family, and villified in the church. The first time I ever heard “God doesn’t expect us to live in abuse” I cried. It was a month after I’d left my husband…two months after he’d held our shaking toddler down in his bed and threatened to kill him for waking up again in the middle of the night. Years of abuse, verbal, emotional, and occasionally physical, certainly sexual and spiritual. And yet my options were to deny what everyone was saying and do what I felt was right, or stay and become more and more entrenched in abuse and win the undying admiration of all those who knew my husband was “difficult”.
I’m glad to read this post here. If I can ever help your friend, or if she wants to read my experiences about coming out of abuse and reclaiming my life, please let me know.
Posted by Scott M on December 21, 2008 at 7:04 pm
I’ll add to those responding to your post, Sheila. Stories like that mean everything. Sorry I was so wrapped up in what I was thinking that it took me a while to acknowledge what you wrote.
I do want to add a little to my thoughts. I’ve said all I think I have to say on the “‘ware the danger” part. I don’t think I said enough on the positive end, which is truly where I have been most influenced by trying to follow Jesus of Nazareth.
When I said much of the message of Jesus and Paul and others on this topic comes down to “Don’t be angry”, I don’t mean either a suppression of your natural anger or some false, plastic facade. Rather, the point is to become the sort of person who does not naturally respond with anger, even when the anger might seem warranted.
That seems to me to be part of the central concept of shalom. I’ve read stories of such people and I’ve even met a few in my life. I want that. I want the peace, but I also want to be the one who can spread peace, who creates shalom in all its nuanced meaning. And anger has no part in that. Good, bad, neutral, or whatever else it may be, anger drives out peace.
I follow Jesus, in part, because I see hope in him that it is possible to be that sort of human being. The shalom of the Messiah seems to be exactly that sort of thing.
I don’t aim to repress anger or pretend it does not exist. I aim to replace anger with something else, something that seems better to me, to whatever limited extent I can through the grace and power of Jesus, Lord of Lords and King of Kings.
And I think that’s Jesus’ goal for each of us, however far along the path we can travel. If that’s not salvation, I don’t what is.
Posted by Scott M on December 21, 2008 at 7:09 pm
Oh Rachel, thank God you are out. God never condones the abuse of his eikon. It dehumanizes both the abuser and the abused. And I’m sorry that your church and family have compounded the abuse. Honestly, given the state of our churches, I’m surprised as many have remained Christian as have done so.
May God bless and strengthen you. May he shower his care and love upon you. May he lift you up when you do not feel that you can stand.
Grace and peace to you.
Posted by Katherine Gunn on December 21, 2008 at 8:24 pm
Hmmm… Anger. That is a tough one. The environment I grew up in (both at home and church) was one in which any for of anger was swiftly punished – to the point that even saying, “ouch” was not acceptable. I was not allowed to even express hurt. even when my grandmother died, I was reprimanded (at 8 years old) for crying.
Now that is only the beginning. My story is not for the squeamish, which includes nearly everyone in all the churches I’ve been a part of. In the midst of that environment, I was also sexually abused – with no safe outlet to tell, to talk – the only option was to bury the emotions. ALL of them. This abuse lasted until I hit puberty and I have just come across some old family documents that provide concrete proof the this particular abuse began when I was around 2.
And in the middle of all this, I am still having trouble feeling any emotions for the little girl I was. And if I am ever going to integrate that little girl back into my life in a healthy way, I HAVE to be angry about what happened to her. And I am not there yet, although I have begun to feel anger toward the idea that I don’t have a right to be angry.
Scott, I understand what you are saying, but if I don’t learn how to be angry, I will not be able to use that anger as a safety gage to avoid abusive situations in the future.
You mentioned ‘righteous’ anger. Would being angry when a child is molested be righteous anger? I am interesting in knowing your thoughts on that.
Posted by Scott M on December 22, 2008 at 9:11 am
Katherine, a part of me wishes I had heard (or experienced) so few life stories like yours that I could be one of those who were ’squeamish’. Unfortunately, I know far too many such stories. I sometimes wonder how so many around me don’t seem to be aware. It’s as if they have eyes, but do not see and ears, but do not hear.
Those feelings you cannot feel at all? They are undoubtedly swimming in great oceans of rage. I’ve not known anyone who was physically or sexually abused at a young age for whom that wasn’t true. At some point in recovery, you will have to face them in some way. I wouldn’t presume to even comment on the particular path your counselor or therapist is helping you pave through the morass. Just don’t get lost in the rage. I’ve known people who ended up stuck in it for years. When that happens, the abuser still rules you. It sounds like you are still near the beginning of a very long road to wholeness. I pray you have the strength and the support around you to walk that path.
I can’t really speak about ‘righteous’ anger. I shared one example upon which I sometimes meditate. There are others. But I am certainly not anywhere near the point on the path of following Jesus that those people were. I don’t know much about ‘righteous’. I do know about anger. Every such story I hear, from those close to me and from more passing acquaintances, fills me with anger to the point of tears.
I do believe today (and recognize I have not been ‘Christian’ for but a portion of my life) that infants and young children are especially dear to God, that they are able to know God more freely and more intimately often that we are able. You see this in the gospel accounts with Jesus.
This is, I think, one of the central failings of those who eschew infant baptism. We all are able relate to babies. I think it supremely arrogant for us to say that the God who created and loves that infant cannot relate to him or her much better and more fully than we can. And I think it’s simply wrong for us to assert that an infant cannot be filled with love for God simply because they have not grown to the point of expressing themselves verbally. Certainly, as the grow the will need to be filled ever more by the love of God, but isn’t that true of us all?
Is God ‘angry’ on behalf of those who have been abused? Certainly. Will those who have abused have to give an account for their actions to the one who created all things and human beings in his image? Absolutely. If I did not believe that, I would not be Christian. I have plenty of other options. However, God’s ‘anger’ cannot be the sort of anger with which we are familiar. I always try to keep that in mind as well. In fact, it is so different or beyond what we would understand as anger, that in some ways it can’t be called anger at all.
Because God is love. And even though I don’t know ‘love’ well enough to understand what that really means, I cling to it. If that were not also true, I don’t think I would be Christian. We need a God of perfect love, even if we cannot grasp fully what that means.
Somehow, when God makes all things new, when sets all things ‘to rights’, all that is so deeply broken will be set right. And abusers will either have turned to God and invested so heavily in Jesus that somehow they become the human beings they should have been, or they continue to dehumanize themselves, deface their eikonic nature, and become beings that cannot endure the unveiled purifying fire of God’s love. They will experience it as unending torment as they are trapped with passions that can no longer be expressed in a creation in which they cannot fit, but they will be helpless to do any further harm. When I look at reality through that lens, I see they are beings much to be pitied, but like rabid dogs, they cannot be allowed free rein.
Probably none of that answered your question. But I’m not sure I have any answers.
Grace and peace. May you be covered in the shalom of the Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth.
Posted by Hope T. on December 22, 2008 at 11:09 am
I was not going to comment on this thread because I have not experienced the kind of heartbreak so many of you have gone through. But I decided I just could not stop myself from saying two quick things.
1.) To all of you who have shared stories of abuse – wow, you are all amazing people to keep perservering, trying to love and trying to heal. I hope that God will pour out blessing on all of you and continue His healing in your lives.
2.) Scott M, wow and double wow to your last comment. I have read your comments on this and other threads and have thought before that you could write a book with all you have experienced and studied. That last comment, though, was so moving that I just had to mention it. The part about infant baptism may have been somewhat of an aside but I thought it one of the better defenses of the practice I have ever read. I speak as one who has been rejected from most churches in my adult life because my baptism as an infant does not “count”. You have given me some additional thoughts to ponder about the issue.
Posted by April on December 22, 2008 at 12:17 pm
It sounds like a lot of people misunderstood me. And perhaps I’ve misunderstood you as well. Thank you Molly for allowing me the freedom to express my thoughts without coming down on me…which I can’t say the same for some of the others.
Reading your blog has been fascinating as I find that I identify so much with some aspects of your life and definitely not other parts. Thanks for your honesty and allowing me to be honest as well.
I have never been abused as you described or as so many people have responded, expressing their own difficult circumstances. Please know that I did not mean to diminish your pain or hardship in my comment. I felt like there was a lot latent anger in your posts, and you certainly have reason to be angry…although I’m sure I don’t know the half of it.
My heart behind it was just to look into your heart and make sure that the anger wasn’t getting in the way with living your life’; that you could release it to God.
He is so long-suffering with us. So patient. So kind. I don’t doubt that He cries with us as we grieve in this world. I don’t want to come off as that girl in college that told you to “get over” a family member’s death. Heaven forbid! That is not my heart at all. I just thought I’d offer another perspective that the Lord wants you to move past your anger and give it to him daily and live in peace and joy.
Posted by Scott M on December 22, 2008 at 12:50 pm
April, I have to admit your follow-up comment confuses me even more. In your earlier comment, you said ‘every post is anti-men, anti-relationship’ and that more than anything else is probably what a lot of people responded to. And I, for one, can’t wrap my head around the lens through which you must be reading that would lead to such a statement.
I will also say that simple statistics (as well as my own experience) tells me that you have a lot more people relationally connected to you who have experienced or even are experiencing abuse than you seem to be aware. You see, we mostly look, act, and talk like everyone else. There is no visual stigmata nor do most speak about it at the drop of a hat. (I have known some who had no meaningful boundaries and had not yet healed enough to develop them who would share graphically at the most wildly inappropriate times. But those are the rare exception. Most will hardly share at all and will go to great lengths to appear ‘normal’ as best they understand it.)
I have the sense that you mean well and thus, perhaps, truly don’t understand how offensive your last sentence sounds to ears tuned by abuse. I do wish that healing were as simple as some rational exercise of ‘giving it over’ to God each day, having it all miraculously taken away from you, and receiving some pollyanic peace. Hmmm. Actually, I’m not sure I wish that at all. It sounds a lot like some sort of Stepford Wives style transformation, replacing the true me with something much shallower.
Whatever the case may be, reality doesn’t work that way. Yes, there are fountains, streams, and rivers of healing to be found in Jesus. I read the promise of the shalom of the Messiah in places like Isaiah 11 and I read Jesus saying, ‘My peace I give you’, and chills run down my spine. Every time Paul blesses people with the peace of Christ, my mind runs to Isaiah 11. I thirst for that. I long to be a human being so filled with that shalom (peace, wholeness, restored, and all else that comes with the term) that it overflows to those around me. And I see hope that in following Jesus, I can move toward that vision.
Joy? I think I want that as well. C.S. Lewis writes about being surprised by joy. I believe I have had moments when I have similarly been surprised by joy. And by hope.
But pain doesn’t simply go away because we wish it would. Healing is often long and messy and cannot be short-circuited. And those forms of abuse which violate your body in particular, physically or sexually, leave behind rage that often has been deeply repressed. It’s almost stored up in your body and you have to face it sometime or live a life in one way or another dominated by it. But there is no quick or easy answer. And it feels like you’re reducing Jesus to the quick-fix feel-good guru. He’s not that. Instead he’s the one who will walk with you every step through the valley of the shadow of death. And having conquered death, he has the power to see you through it safely. But we still have to walk through that valley.
There’s no ‘Get Out of Jail Free’ card in life.
Posted by sarah walston on December 22, 2008 at 2:04 pm
Molly,
When we left a certain church a certain number of years ago some one very wise told me, over dinner, after I had apologized for rattling on and on and on about how ANGRY I was that I had been so deceived….she said, and I quote, “Don’t apologize for it. Talk about it. Talk about what happened to you and how you feel about it today. Talk about it now. And talk about it until there is nothing left to talk about.”
THAT is processing your anger. And I thought, and still think, that is one of the wisest things I’ve ever been told to do. She was a woman of wisdom who herself had been sucked into the patriarchy movement and had caused deep division in her relationships, family, etc, because of her “convictions.” She was healing too. She was a kindred spirit. She understood. I was not throwing my pearls (my emotions, my personhood, my spirit) before swine. I was being validated. And that allowed me to have more compassion on myself.
I haven’t read and don’t have time to read through all the comments here – but keep writing – keep talking about it – until you have nothing left to say about it. Sometimes I feel like I have nothing left to say about the abusive church I was in, the abusive relationships I’ve been in – and then other times I still feel like I have truckloads to discuss!
I agree though – when the veil comes off – when reality hits – it IS a death. I wish I could speak more frankly – but I’ve spent the last year working through the stages of grief as my whole world was rocked November of last year. And a death occurred. Not a tangilble one that anyone even understood. But real none the less. And it’s taken me a year to stop being angry about it and to be … FLAT. Right now – I’m emotionally flat about the whole thing. But that’s a stage too. I think Hope comes next. I need to get my manual out… LOL!!
Posted by Deborah on December 22, 2008 at 4:05 pm
Sarah, Laughing with you (come to think of it, as per your name–believing but not believing in the grief–as well as the ending of your fine post). I too have gone through a whole series of “deaths” even just this year, things I never could have imagined, the deepest relationships of my life ripped away from me AND turned upon me by a spiritual deception that I did not want to believe was growing in the religious grounds around me, making me very alone in what is an extremely vulnerable time in my life and forcing me to leave a church I was so determined to love and stick with through thick and thin despite much that has happened to me there.
Thoughts for everyone this evening:
From Fruitful or Barren?: Studies in the Fruit of the Spirit by Donald Gee, Gospel Publishing House, Springfield, Missouri:
pp. 2, 22, 38, 43:
“The contrast with the fruit of the Spirit is the works of the flesh. Fruit and ‘works’–the peace and freshness of the orchard contrasted with the din and smoke and fever of the factory, and worse….”
Hmm. As to the joy and peace we are striving for–which place is it a product of, the tree or the factory? Does a different kind–or none at all–develop if we are simply letting go of the anger daily or if we are working through every ounce of it? I don’t have a simplistic answer regarding either side of the equation. But the next four quotes should provide some guidance in discerning that:
“The fruit of the Spirit is victorious and voluntary. It suffers with a grin. Indeed, it can so cleverly conceal itself that onlookers mistakenly imagine that the one in view has nothing to worry about, and no particular tests for patience. That is victory.”
YET “Some people’s joy gives an impression of a fundamental lack of peace in the depth of the personality: it is too brilliant, too metallic, too restless. One feels that if they ceased to manifest an exuberant joy, they would somehow collapse. It seems possible that their joy is not only their strength, but their only strength. Our personalities need inward peace that is founded on the Rock of Ages (Isa 26:4, margin)”
“Problems of understanding the will of God and problems of casuistry, almost destroy the peace of some Christians.”
“It is a Christian virtue not to manifest resentment; it is a still deeper Christian grace not to feel resentment.” Ah, and which pathway gets you more truly to that place (and not just out of numbness or dissociation!!!)?
Finally, a scripture on my mind today:
1 Peter 1:8-9, “And though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls [the deliverance of your psyche: emotions, conscience, will, and thoughts].” Back when I was essentially bed-ridden I would say that scripture every day, and sometimes the dark night of the soul would crack, and I would be surprised by joy. A strange undercurrent of joy that is more like peace carried me through some later seasons, and I think I’m needing to find my way back that in a deeper way.
Posted by Mara on December 22, 2008 at 6:35 pm
Scott, I don’t have much time but wanted to note something.
I think that we are in agreement that people can go off the deep end with anger. And I think we are in agreement that some anger will most likely be seen when someone realizes that they are/have been abused.
I’m taking a step back to look at the big picture with this anger/abuse thing. I want to see if we agree on this as a general overview.
I.) I’m thinking there are those who haven’t been abused who have no repressed anger and are in a relatively healthy state.
2.)There are those who walk among us, all smiles, covering up the abuse and anger while the anger still festers.
3.)There are those who’ve let the anger out, appear angry, look angry, talk angry, and just want to be angry for a while.
4.)And there are those who have let it out. let it run its course and are over it and have arrived at a more or less healthy balance.
I think the two best places to be are 1 and 4. But which would be better of the two middle choices? 2 or 3?
If stage 3 went on forever till a person died, then maybe 2 would be better. But how do you get to 4 without going through 3?
I so totally understand your warning about anger. Many who have been abused have dealt with other people’s highly inappropriate anger.
When anger is used to control and to get a bigger piece of pie, it is wrong. Also using it as an adrenaline rush is bad and unhealthy. It is sin.
I also understand your warning about getting into stage 3 and just staying there. I wouldn’t wish that on anyone.
But when I spoke of letting out the ugly anger, I specifically meant going through stage 3 so you can reach stage 4 so that you don’t have to be stuck in stage 2.
My fear in warning people about the dangers of anger, especially women who have been repressing it so long, they don’t even know how to be angry, is that they will avoid stage 3 and live forever in stage 2 until it kills them like a cancer.
From all you’ve written I believe you want people to get through to 4 as well. But I’m not sure you realize that many of these women have been warned over and over and over about the danger and sinfulness of anger already. Many of them really do need permission to just let it out with the understanding that it is a means to an end and not the end itself.
(And when I say let it out, I don’t mean to abuse another. But journaling was quite helpful for me.)
I had a couple other things to add but my daughter has called from a friend’s house and needs me to pick her up since it is too cold to walk.
Posted by molleth on December 22, 2008 at 7:30 pm
Mara, I think I agree with you, here (and I’m running who said what, when, all together now, but I thought there were some other great comments as well…thanks for the brain fodder today, as usual, all).
I think (I think!) I hear what you are saying, Scott, and I agree that it’s ideal to reach a place of wholeness, but I don’t think that can be done without going through the flame, as it were, of anger…ideally a constructive healing kind of anger. I’ve not experienced anything but what Mara is talking about: being warned over and over and over to not be angry, to keep that smile on, to be “joyful” (ie, fake happiness is better than real sadness).
I think it’s healthy to be angry and to learn how to be angry…but I agree, staying in a place of anger is not going to heal anything, it’s just going to foster more destruction. So I think it probably just depends on what experiences one has had…if one has been in a place of rage for a long time, or if one’s “angry phase” is destroying everyone around one, I think it’s time to start working towards something more productive and proactive.
HOWEVER, if one has not been allowed to be angry, and/or doesn’t know how to be angry in a healthy way, I think the most productive and proactive thing is to be angry, or at least start learning. I’m not sure that kind of advice can or ever would make sense to anyone except for those who’ve lived in a world where anger was not allowed. I wish I would have been angry a lot more. I wish I would have reacted in anger to the abuse. I think it would have been a lot healthier than my frequent (successful, most of the time) attempts to be cheerful and pleasant.
There is something really really sick about recieving abuse with quiet pleasant cheerfulness. Thinking about it makes me sick, speaking of sick. Ugh. I think part of finding wholeness includes getting in touch with the part of ourselves that knows when to be angry and how to do it appropriately. Sort of my same view on gun control…the things are dangerous and destructive, without a doubt, but when used appropriately, LIFE-SAVING. (Ie, the mature position, I think, isn’t where we get rid of them altogether, but where we learn to use them with wisdom—-appropriate use vs. inappropriate use).
April, I kind of agree with Scott on this one… I’m so sorry you feel misunderstood, but admittedly, “every post is anti-men, anti-relationship” was kind of hard to take in any sort of positive way, as was your admonishment for me to search my heart because you didn’t like the posts. Ouch! It felt a little forward, I guess. Not suprisingly, I’m not really into people telling me what the “Lord wants” for me. I’ve had enough of that for one lifetime, and feel a little allergic to such statements now, with good reason. That said, I’m sure you didn’t mean to come off that way, and, heck, even if you did, I respect your right to have an opinion and to share it.
Posted by Scott M on December 22, 2008 at 8:07 pm
Mara and Molly, I feel like I’ve said in almost every other sentence in one way or another that it’s really, really bad to repress or suppress anger. Nor have I ever meant to even imply that you do not have to access, feel, and process the anger in order to begin to heal. However, I have certainly known plenty of women as well as men who have expressed that anger in inappropriate, dangerous, and sometimes violent ways — ways that are not healing at all and are destructive to those around them. So I think my caution does apply to women as well as men. Nowhere have I tried to say, “Don’t go there!” I’ve tried to say, “Be careful!” And I think the caution is needed. I’ve found anger to be among the tricksiest of emotions. It also can never be the endpoint and we need to keep that in mind.
I do understand the need to simplify things to get anywhere in a discussion. But I do feel the pressure to point out for those who might take the reduction as gospel, that there are many more than four possible states. And you’re never going to progress linearly. You don’t work through anger and hurt once and end up ‘healthy and balanced’ (though I’m not entirely sure what that even is). Instead, you’ll work through the presenting hurt or anger and feel more balanced for a while. Then something else will pop up, some other pool of rage will be uncovered, some deep pain will come to mind, some nerve will be struck, or someone will hurt you a particular way again and you’ll have to work through it yet again.
It’s somewhere in that cycle that I’ve seen people lose the will to leave the anger behind and become ’stuck’ for lack of a better term. Anger becomes a security blanket – a ’safe’ place of retreat.
Ah, guns. The pre-Christian Scott and the post-Christian Scott have a lot of conflicting thoughts on that which I would hardly call resolved.
Posted by Scott M on December 22, 2008 at 8:15 pm
“The hardest thing in this world is to live in it.”
The quote has been running through my mind today. Kudos to those who know the reference. It seems utterly appropriate.
Posted by Scott M on December 22, 2008 at 8:21 pm
And then I hit this in my feed reader. We do need to appreciate the ordinary miracles we encounter every day.
http://falsani.blogspot.com/2008/12/happy-hanukkah-its-not-that-unusual.html
Posted by Scott M on December 22, 2008 at 8:43 pm
And thinking back to the idea of anger not being the destination, I’m reminded of something I recall from friends who did lots of cross-country running, biking, etc. The surest way to hit an obstacle (root, rock, whatever) is to focus on it. Your body will go right where you’re focused. I think the same sort of danger exists if you focus too much or too specifically or too long on the hurt or the anger. You need to see it, experience it, feel it, process it, but you always have to have some focus on where you want to go. I think that’s why I’ve kept returning to a piece of my vision of the person I would like to become.
If you don’t know where you want to go, it’s particularly hard to get there. I have learned that, at least.
Posted by April on December 22, 2008 at 8:48 pm
I suppose I felt like I could be “forward” as you worded it in this setting. I certainly am not trying to tell you what the Lord is telling you but wanted to offer a different perspective. I do thank you, though, for giving me the freedom to my thoughts. You are gracious–even though I know I may have upset you but what I said.
Scott, your tone is somewhat condescending, and that may be because this is not a face-to-face conversation. I do indeed know people who have been abused, and I have travailed with them. I am not oblivious to the pain that surrounds me nor of the many, many hurting people.
I strongly disagree with you about the healing process. There is no doubt that it takes time, but God’s grace IS enough to take it all away. He healed people of leprosy, blindness, and all manner of physical and spiritual diseases. I believe wholeheartedly that He walks with us through our suffering and wants us to be healed of our hurts; even when they come from abuse. The Bible talks about us “casting our burdens on Him for He cares for us”. That literally means to “roll” our burdens onto him. That is not a Stepford wives transformation but an answer to our pain.
No, it’s not so easy as that. It takes time. But He can and will heal us our our hurt and anger from whatever it may be.
And for the record…I am sorry if my comments offended anyone else. Scott mentioned that my comment about giving God our hurts was offensive to those coming out of abusive situations. I did not mean that as a miracle salve, but as the abiding hope to get us through the day.
Posted by Mara on December 22, 2008 at 8:50 pm
Scott, somehow I knew you were going to go after my four little stages.
Just for the record, yes, I know it is more complicated than that. Yes, I know it is more like an ebb and flow. And yes, I know that women, as well as men, get stuck in the ever angry stage.
But part of me wonders if more women than men get stuck in the initial #2 stage before any anger is admitted to. I really do wonder because I have met so, so many of these women. Churches are full of them.
Perhaps it is the overemphesis of women submitting.
Some women have been convinced that they don’t even have the right to their own God-given emotion.
I know there is a danger in oversimplifing. But I also know there is a danger in making things so complicated and spread out so far that they seem unreachable.
I guess I should be more specific.
I had Katherine Gunn and women like her in my heart when I wrote the stages. It seems she cannot even feel. And I want to assure her that it is worth going through the process.
I still think we agree and I thought I said so.
All I can make of our conversation, really, all that I can deduce is that you know more people stuck in the eternal stage 3 and I know more stuck in the eternal stage 2.
That’s why I question. Which is worse? I really don’t know. I want all wounded people to be on that road of healing but they won’t get there until they take the first step.
Your greatest concern seems to be those that veer off the ebb and flow into the mire of stage three because those are the ones you know or are called to or something.
I guess I’ll leave it at that.
I think… no… I know we agree. Our emphesis simply differ, that’s all.
Continue your ministry to those stuck in 3. I’ll continue mine to those stuck in 2. I believe our ministries are very compatable even if we cannot agree on the finer points of what needs the most attention.
(Forgive my spelling errors. I’m being rushed off this computer by an impatient teenager)
Posted by Scott M on December 22, 2008 at 9:42 pm
Mara, I don’t think I’ve spent as much time in churches as you have. Most of the people who come to my mind are not connected to me through a church context. That may account for the difference in our perception.
April, I’ve been called condescending before and probably will again. It’s usually unintentional and was in this instance. If I were better at catching it, I would nuance what I say differently. I think it’s one of my defense mechanisms. There are strains of Christianity which have largely screened out the psalms of lament. In order to be whole, the church must fully inhabit all the psalms. That’s mostly what I meant.
Posted by Deborah on December 22, 2008 at 9:52 pm
Molly, hearing you on the um “allergy” to others prescriptions!
Scott, great root metaphor!!
Posted by molleth on December 22, 2008 at 9:58 pm
Short on time, but just wanted to say that I’m loving this conversation…
Posted by Katherine Gunn on December 22, 2008 at 10:35 pm
Scott, thank you. I appreciate your remarks. I am not angry with you (no pun intended).
I understand the danger of unrestrained anger. I’ve been on the receiving end of it. I also know that there is a lot of anger bottled up. And to be honest, that anger scares me. I don’t want to lose control to it. But I do need to let it out – get it out. Still working on how to do that.
Mara, thanks for the stages. They make sense. I also know that it will come in waves. The pain does.
As to the church, it is, in general, a focal point for some of that anger right now. You see, I grew up in church and what happened was in the setting of a church – my father a deacon, my mother a Sunday school teacher. I was even dedicated to God as an infant. Understand, I am not rejecting God. I couldn’t. He’s the only reason I even survived. But in my experience, some of the worst abusers are men (and women) who run churches – or are heavily involved in churches. It is wonderful cover – and the church turns a blind eye and sweeps it all under the rug, leaving those who are abused bleeding on the side of the road. Yeah. There is some anger surfacing there.
Posted by madame on December 23, 2008 at 3:04 am
I haven’t been able to read through the last replies, so I hope I’m not repeating what someone else already said.
I see the difference between long stored or pent up anger, and fresh anger.
I understand that if we would just be able to let out the fresh anger in a constructive way at the relevant person, we’d all have a lot less pent up anger to deal with.
Abusers don’t allow the abused to express their anger, so when we’ve been abused, we have to peel off layer after layer of anger against a certain person (or group of people) before we can learn how to deal with fresh anger, because any situation that makes us angry will usually bring out all sorts of other angers that have not been properly expressed.
Christians often don’t like to deal with humans as human beings. Some Christians spiritualize things to the extreme of denying people their emotions. For example, at my (last) church, the pastor wanted me to continue leading praise and worship, even with the knowledge that I have unresolved issues that are ongoing with two members of the church. Her solution to my anger is that I smile, that I remember on Sundays that this is the day the Lord has made, I will rejoice and be glad, and God will give me the strength and grace to pull it through. For her, my anger can be overcome by my will to worship.
the opposite happened after a couple of months of trying that one out.
Her other solution was for me to have Bible studies with the people who are hurting me, that through those Bible studies I can show them in God’s word what they have been doing against me and God.
I call this overspiritualizing and putting the burden of reconciliation on the shoulders of a person who is not being allowed to express her emotions. to me, that is wrong.
Another thing I got to thinking about is the need to express our anger at the right person. Sometimes talking with someone else will help, but sometimes it will only make the pain more deep seated. Talking about the way others have wronged us is tempting at times, (and I don’t mean to tell anyone off here!) but not always helpful to the process of healing. It can even be counter-productive if carried on for a long time because the more we reflect on how bad the abuse was (or is), continuously bringing out more and more details and savouring the wrongness of it all, the more it hurts. and we become bitter.
This has happened to me.
I think there is a thin line between processing the anger in a way that leads to healing and overprocessing it, which will lead to bitterness and unforgiveness. The difficult thing for me is to fall behind the right line!
If we are christians we have to forgive, but I don’t think that forgiving an unrepentant abuser or offender necessarily means restoring the relationship. If a person remains unrepentant, I think we don’t have to continue the relationship. It only leads to more bitterness if we try to do as though nothing were. As soon as this person hurts us again, all the stored up hurts will resurface.
Some Christians would like us all to sweep our pain and anger under a carpet, but I don’t believe that is what forgiveness is about.
I’ll come back when I have some time and read through the discussion. It’s making me think.
Posted by Val on December 23, 2008 at 8:06 am
Wow, Molly.
This is an amazing post. And it hits pretty close to home in a couple of arenas….one of them being teaching in Bush Alaska where violence against women is culturally acceptable. It’s heart wrenching to watch and to see the affects of it filter down to the students I teach.
Thank you for your gentle words of wisdom.
Val
Posted by Ariane on December 23, 2008 at 10:03 am
Molly, you are such a beautiful writer.
I think when an emotionally abusive relationship is connected with religion then it is exponentially more difficult – believing that something is commanded by God is a HUGE reinforcer for behavior ! When a guy who already has a tendency to be controlling & is kinda nitpicky about how he likes things done, is told by spiritual leaders that he is to be a prophet priest and king of his home, with absolute authority , it can go over the line to thinking that he HAS to be dominating and controlling to live up to “Biblical manhood”. Since he is supposed to be responsible for his wife spiritually, then if she is not unfailingly obedient, submissive, quiet, docile, and cheerful, then it is a bad reflection on him…Both his manhood and his spiritual state will be questioned…so maybe he needs to be MORE dominant, more critical, more rebuking, to “sanctify” and “cleanse” her.
I think , as you say, real repentence – of the kind where you have to deal with it for a while that the abused person is going to flinch from you – is rare. And what a hurdle for repentence to get over if you thought the whole set up was ordered by God. (but if someone admits they were lying about what God told them (WOW!!!! how maddening to the person lied to! ) that seems like a pretty big crumble in the belief that the whole edifice was holy.
Posted by Ariane on December 23, 2008 at 10:19 am
I just read your other post “When God Leaves the Broken Behind” and saw you said much better most of the ideas I was touching on in the first paragraph of my comment above.
Posted by Headless Unicorn Guy on December 23, 2008 at 11:02 am
don’t love chocolate cake. I want to eat it. I want to consume it to feed my hunger, my passion. I don’t actively will the good for chocolate cake. We understand that difference when we’re talking about chocolate cake. The problem is that too many people ‘love’ others as though they were chocolate cake. — Scott M
Including crapping it out and flushing it a couple days after you eat it? (That’s the first thing that came to my mind when I read that…)
Posted by sarah walston on December 23, 2008 at 12:18 pm
I love this conversation.
I love that there are so many hurting and angry people who are open about their journey.
It’s a nice breath of fresh air after coming out of the ultra-rigid, “Take it with a smile you submissive woman you” camp here in town for so many years!!
Posted by sarah walston on December 23, 2008 at 12:21 pm
Oh. LOL. I did NOT mean to imply that I’m glad there are so many people who have suffered abuse. Good grief, how messed up would I be if that was my position!! **grimace**
Although that is certainly what it could sound like!!
I MEANT that although there are sadly a lot of hurting people, I’m thankful that they feel comfortable talking about their pain in a productive manner. It is helpful for me – and I”m sure others, to hear that I am not the only one…. sort of thing…
OK now that I’ve just jumbled it all up….I’m going to Walmart….time for some retail therapy. Glad to have added something of value to this conversation.
Posted by E on December 23, 2008 at 1:41 pm
As I was watching the new movie The Tale of Despereaux yesterday, there were more than a few times when the movie reminded me of what religious abuse and efforts to suppress people to “fit into the [patriarchal, or whatever you want to insert in here] paradigm” can do to a person.
Ignore the negative reviews. The animation/art is stunning and while there are some things I think could have been better, this is a complex and interesting movie, esp. re: how the seemingly disparate strands come together and how the resolution shows that the good things that happen are a result of the bad things that happened – and that’s made clear by the narrator, too. It’s not a simplistic story, and its endnote is about forgiveness.
Several of the previews were for upcoming 3D movies – Coraline, Up, Monsters (Inc.) vs. Aliens, Ice Age 3. The Tale of Desperaux would have been incredible in 3D.
Posted by Deborah on December 24, 2008 at 3:21 pm
Hey, Scott, I might actually use that root thing in some writing, i.e., “My friend Scott observed….” Would that be cool?
Thanks,
Deb
Posted by Mara on December 26, 2008 at 2:57 pm
Belated Merry Christmas Molly and all.
Scott, I had this picture jump into my consious brain, from my subconscious, I guess. Was thinking about our different views and emphasis on the healing process.
I visualized myself as wanting to push people out the door and onto their road of healing. And I saw you as wanting to drive around in a tow truck looking to pull people out of the ditches of unresolved, unconstructive anger.
Yep, it was a rather positive thought during the holidays.
Posted by Scott M on December 27, 2008 at 7:55 pm
Deb, sure. Odds are I heard or read something like it somewhere myself.
Nice metaphor, Mara.
Merry Christmas all!
Posted by Deborah on December 27, 2008 at 9:26 pm
Thanks Scott. Merry Christmas back.
Posted by molleth on December 30, 2008 at 1:07 pm
On anger…
The book, Toxic Faith, which some dear friends said I *must* read, started out really dry…at least for me…but after the first 1/4th, or 1/3rd…WOW. And chapter 4 speaks specifically about anger, and even more specifically about women—-how they, much more than men, are trained from childhood NOT to be angry or to show anger, and how detrimental this is. (He speaks similarly to men, saying that for most, anger is somewhat okay, from a social standpoint, but grieving is NOT, and that’s usually the biggest thing that most men struggle with, that they are not allowed to genuinely and deeply grieve what happened).
But on anger, since that was a big subject here in the comment thread, the book talks in depth about how anger is vital, that without it, we can’t even understand that we are being abused.
Without a healthy understanding and expression of anger, we will remain in a perpetual state of victim and enabler to those who abuse us. In other words, exactly what we were all talking about. Ha! But it was cool to see it in print after the fact, so I had to mention it.
Great book, btw…Very very very insightful on many levels, for anyone dealing with any sort of spiritual abuse. I almost didn’t finish it, because the first fourth of it was so, “yeah, yeah, I’ve heard all of that before,” but WOW…am I ever glad I picked it back up.
Posted by Tina Benitez on December 31, 2008 at 12:50 am
I am in a situation that is a bit backwards from what you talk about here but abuse is abuse, isn’t it?
I left a rather controlling and abusive church about 10 years ago along with some of my other family members. We joined another church but this church was never peaceful for long, things would be going along fine and then everyone would be in an uproar again. It took me many years to see the truth that it was my brother bringing his controlling and devisive, abusive ways into the church. He was on the board but most of his work was done “off clock” and one on one behind closed doors.
Two years ago we hired a new preacher who quickly saw the truth and asked my brother to be removed from the board but the abuse just escalated (if you disagreed with him, you were condemned and shunned). He currently (for the past 3 weeks) is attending an offshoot of our old church and embracing the teachings we were under growing up. He is always claiming to “have heard from God” and I sometimes wonder if it is mental illness. I wish I could talk candidly with my sister-in-law but from the outside it seems as if she is fooled also. I don’t think she sees herself as being abused…To be fair I don’t think he rages against her just as long as she doesn’t have a different opinion. She has shared that she likes to keep him busy with hockey and what not because life is more peaceful when he is not around.
Another big problem is in our personal family. My sister and I are the only ones that live close enough to personally experiance the abuse. The rest of the family either lives at a distance or attend different churches and believe all of his lies. They can’t/won’t see the abuse and think we are making it all up in our minds. They tell us not to be bitter and forgive. They tell us, “Oh, that’s just Joe, he’s always been that way.”
“Don’t rock the boat”, “Don’t cause strife in the family”, “He has nine kids and the economy is bad, that’s a lot of stress”, “You’re just jealous”, “Joe would give the shirt off his back! Why, he just treated us to dinner.”
I am angry! I am hurt, I am confused at what to do. Mostly now I am relieved that he has left our church family and hope he stays gone. I started distancing myself from him a few years ago, if I see him at family gatherings I fake it and talk about the weather. He likes to have an audience but I don’t have to be part of it. The rest of my family believes the lies he is spreading about our church and current pastor but there is not alot to be done. I will trust in God and the passage of time to reveal the truth. I’m sure he will not be peaceful at his new church for long.
Thanks for the Free Therapy session!
Posted by E on December 31, 2008 at 6:22 am
Tina:
Re: your brother. Does he evidence any or many of these characteristics?
( from narcissisticabuse.com/characteristics.html )
( linked from narcissism101.com/ )
add the h t t p and w w w to go to these URLs
THE NARCISSIST
Certain characteristics appear with stunning regularity among narcissists. Since narcissism
is on a continuum, some will have more than others.
CHARACTERISTICS of the NARCISSIST and others with Personality Disorders
I began this and as others sent me more, I added them to make this a collaborative list. Thank you all. These apply to males and females.
1. Self-centered. His needs are paramount.
2. No remorse for mistakes or misdeeds.
3. Unreliable, undependable.
4. Does not care about the consequences of his actions.
5. Projects faults on to others. High
blaming behavior; never his fault.
6. Little if any conscience.
. 7. Insensitive to needs and feelings of others.
8. Has a good front (persona) to impress and exploit others.
9. Low stress tolerance. Easy to anger and rage.
10. People are to be manipulated for his needs.
11. Rationalizes easily. Twists conversation to his gain at other’s expense. If trapped, keeps
talking, changes the subject or gets angry.
12. Pathological lying.
13. Tremendous need to control situations, conversations, others.
14. No real values. Mostly situational.
15. Often perceived as caring and understanding and uses this to manipulate.
16. Angry, mercurial, moods.
17. Uses sex to control
18. Does not share ideas, feelings, emotions.
19. Conversation controller. Must have the first and last word.
20. Is very slow to forgive others. Hangs onto resentment.
21. Secret life. Hides money, friends, activities.
22. Likes annoying others. Likes to create chaos and disrupt for no reason.
23. Moody – switches from nice guy to anger without much provocation.
24. Repeatedly fails to honor financial obligations.
25. Seldom expresses appreciation.
26. Grandiose. Convinced he knows more than others and is correct in all he does.
27. Lacks ability to see how he comes across to others. Defensive when confronted with his behavior. Never his fault.
28. Can get emotional, tearful. This is about show or frustration rather than sorrow.
29. He breaks woman’s spirits to keep them dependent.
30. Needs threats, intimidations to keep others close to him.
31. Sabotages partner. Wants her to be happy only through him and to have few or no outside interests and acquaintances.
32. Highly contradictory.
33. Convincing. Must convince people to side with him.
34. Hides his real self. Always “on”
35. Kind only if he’s getting from you what he wants.
36. He has to be right. He has to win. He has to look good.
37. He announces, not discusses. He tells, not asks.
38. Does not discuss openly, has a hidden agenda.
39. Controls money of others but spends freely on himself.
40. Unilateral condition of, “I’m OK and justified so I don’t need to hear your position or ideas”
41. Always feels misunderstood.
42. You feel miserable with this person. He drains you.
43. Does not listen because he does not care.
44. His feelings are discussed, not the partners.
45. Is not interested in problem-solving.
46. Very good at reading people, so he can manipulate them. Sometimes called gaslighting.
Posted by madame on December 31, 2008 at 12:34 pm
E,
That sounds very much like someone in my extended family.
Posted by Mara on January 2, 2009 at 10:49 am
Thank you, Molly, for bringing up that book and the chapter on anger. It was validating for me.
I’ve been through the anger.
Saw an interesting interaction between a father and baby girl. She was mad and crying. And guess what her daddy said to her, “Are you mad?”
It wouldn’t have jumped out at me, except, as you mentioned, little girls are often not allowed to be or show anger. I thought that it was wonderful that this dad allowed his daughter to express anger. He kept saying, “That’s all right. I understand.”
Beautiful.
What is the fear in letting our daughters be angry?
Or let our sons cry?
Posted by Sarah on January 24, 2009 at 7:12 pm
Molleth, Scot, Mara, April, ladies and Gentlemen,
I am profoundly moved by the courage you have all revealed, each and every one of you, some of you having survived abbysal trauma that leaves the soul reeling, others who, though they have journeyed the path with their fellows have as yet not walked these valleys themselves – and everyone in between.
Everyone’s candour and openness with each other here is refreshing; I am ever mindful that the one dimensional world of words can be a curiously frustrating medium through wich to communicate.
Scott, I am profoundly touched by your insight and wisdom; May you keep on in the path…
Concerning exiting churchesdenominations that have been destructive to the heart and soul; it is only now, four years after leaving a denomination I laboured with for twenty one years from my early teens until my mariage in 2005 that I can look back upon it with anything other than anger and fear. Denominations – especially those that practice remnant theology as I call it, undermine assurance and any understanding we might gain of a loving caring Saviour completely. Only after leaving said denomination did I truly begin to understand the message of the Gospel for the first time, and, as has been mentioned here, I exchanged a non-liturgical form for the liturgical, finding within the spirit of peace I had rarely witnessed (if at any time). the greatest tool abusive churches wield is fear; fear that if one engages in appostacy – rejecting their version of Christianity for another, thus leaving the full light of knowledge they alone offer one is lost completely. Many do not survive an exit from such environs with any type of faith at all… Though the patriarchy many have been freed from was rarely evident, my old denomination’s unique identifyiers for Salvation over the very Saviour Himself were peddled; Christianity without Christ. Scott’s take upon the door being the church rather than an individual truly resonated with me. Interestingly, studying theology at a small university associated with the very group my previous denomination singled out as ‘antichrist’ has been fascinating!! Many along for the journey with me are searching, healing, looking for answers and given room to rail, accept, voice fears, share, grow and learn in what I see as a truly Christ-centred environement. it is herein that I have perhaps been able to heal the most; and yes, I have journeyed through the valley of anger; an integral part of the whole process…it was a gentlemann, himself from a difficult background who is training to be an Orthodox minister (who incidentally grew up in an enclave of my prev denomination without being a member) who finally helped me transition from ’step 3′ to ’step 4′ though at the time, I couldn’t see it, simply putting up blocks and hurdles, unable to hear what he was trying to say. Later, much later, I did…This man (whom I have witnessed express righteous indignation in the midst of the assembly, as it were, never once reproved me for what I expressed…letting me have my head but planting a few seeds that only afterwards, quite some months later, in the cool light of a new, fresh day, could I see with any clarity. This course of study, the teachers (many of the students – a small number of us taking on this path in our late 30’s and 40’s as am I) show the beauty of God’s design for all of us in humble reverent beauty. May i admit…..even a type of complementarianism utterly alien to that peddled by the US hyperpatriarchalists.
Concerning destructive relationships, eleven years ago, after three and a half years entrapped, I fled one; physically, mentally and emotionally abusive. the latter two caused far more injury than the first their scars remaining with me to this day (I thank god for a caring, patient oceanic husband). I did run; it took three attempts…via the grapevine, I learned of his passing in March 2008…Now myself married, at times I catch myself short after raging and exploding – soberly seeing with sickening clarity shadows of this late individual in my own actions. And it is truly a death, may i assure you!!
Not only have I suffered thus, but I have seen men and women both, captive to these circumstances…even in my own family; we grieve for a fellow who has systematically been peared away over the decades…it is truly sad.
In closing, it is my sincere prayer that all are lifted free from the rubble of the cataclysms that have befallen them…I have heard it said, we never ‘get over it’, for we don’t. but somehow, we strive to get through. from my own experiences (only a tiny snapshot shared here) i have gained insight and understanding into the raw, hurting, wounded condition of humanity in a way that I otherwise might not have gained – the humanity which Christ served upon Earth and weeps over now. I firmly believe he catches every tear even though, in those dark places, we often feel more alone than we ever have; as though God Himself, along with everyone we have ever yearned to trust, has turned away, showing us His back.
May each and every one of you be utterly blessed,
Sarah.
Posted by molleth on January 24, 2009 at 10:41 pm
Sarah,
((((hugs))))
Thanks so much for sharing here.
Posted by Scott M on January 25, 2009 at 7:03 am
I’m glad you found something I wrote helpful. Thanks for sharing. Grace and peace.
Posted by SarahSarah on January 25, 2009 at 2:22 pm
Molleth,
having seemingly stumbled upon your blog in its late evening, so to speak, I thank you dearly for taking the time to reply to my contributions here and bid you every peace and contentment as you approach this new season of your life. It would seem (and this has happened to me time and time again
) I find sites/groups etc when they are already well into their twilight. Though this is dreadfully off topic (having read your closing article elsewhere on this blog), I cannot help but encourage you to keep on growing, loving teaching and sharing as God in His infinite mercy gives you leading whether as teacher to your own immediate circle of family and loved ones or a somewhat wider audience.
We are all upon the pilgrim’s path…
Sarah. …
Posted by Kristen on February 16, 2009 at 8:19 am
Molly…if you told me you wrote this about me, I’d believe you. I e-mailed you. Thank you for writing this.
Posted by molleth on February 17, 2009 at 8:02 pm
(((hugs)))
It was great to talk with you yesterday, Kristen. Wow. We are living parallel lives. So weird. Wow. Wow. WOW.